[XXL]

(01-10-2017 06:02 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Shit tests should be regular but not to the point of perpetual annoyance. A complete lack of them probably indicates she's fucking behind your back and no longer considers you worth screening for alpha qualities (congrats, you're the beta bux now).

It's not even shittests that I'm talking about. It's those daily unnecessary stupid actions and behaviors typical for a bratty kid or something that make me not like my GF. Like she couldn't text "honey please call me back when you're free ok?" when I don't pick up. She had to text "oh seems like you're sooo busy now you can't even talk to me, I wonder what's so important...". I loved her but after that I hated that bitch with all my heart. I couldn't let it slide, I had to call her out on shit like that. It's just fucking silly to me. I mean what's the point of saying something like this.

Patrice O'Neal was right, it's easier to love a girl than to like her.

(01-10-2017 06:02 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

I find having a good physique is a real game changer here. When a strong man gets his hackles up and develops a good overall anger-flex complete with veins popping out it can really take the wind out of their argumentative sails.

After all, deep down they just want to know they're not shackled to a pussy.

What does good physique have to do with this topic?

You mean that a girl supposed to be afraid that you will lose it and put hands on her? What gives?

[LeoneVolpe]

(01-10-2017 03:03 PM)XXL Wrote:  

(01-09-2017 08:12 PM)LeoneVolpe Wrote:  

If I'm going to err, I'd rather err on the side of too much boldness than too little. A girl can still respect a man who stands up for himself, but she's much more likely to disrespect a man who allows such treatment by avoiding confrontation for fear of seeming "phased" by her actions.

My question is not whether to be bold or timid when calling out a girl. The question is whether to do it or not. If yes, then when and when not to. If not then what's the consequences.

Ringo gave good answer to that.

I understand what you're saying. I just meant that from a certain viewpoint, even choosing not to call a girl out (inaction) could look make a guy look timid. But I agree Ringo (and others) gave some great input, and thanks again for posting a great thread.

[XXL]

(01-10-2017 12:27 PM)MaceTyrell Wrote:  

I needed this post last year.

Thank you so much for this: I'm really happy to see RVF give advice on how to manage LTRs too. I'm not jaded enough that I believe I can fall in love with a wonderful woman, and keep the relationship manageable through an alpha frame, and the things you mentioned above.

I've been concentrating on the battles instead of the war. So, so much to learn.

Yeah dude, so called relationship game is waaay harder than pickup. Especially when you girl is hot Russian dievushka getting hit on left and right from "good catch" guys while you're just a regular guy with no fame, no connections, no fortune, no upscale lifestyle, no nice familly... just game and balls.

[XXL]

(01-10-2017 01:54 PM)456 Wrote:  

My willingness to call out BS and stay firm about my preferences is something that my girls love at first, and a positive quality overall. Have even gotten comments early on in relationships (i.e. a few days after an incident, "I love that you actually called me out on that. Thanks boo.").

However in the past I've let it slide and become too much like a grumpy manager -- maybe not micromanaging, but not picking battles wisely. It's caused resentment.

It is like that. At first they like it that you're not a pushover and have boundaries. After some time they get tired of them, resentment kicks in and shit starts going south.

(01-10-2017 01:54 PM)456 Wrote:  

The key is not to let resentment (or micro-resentment) step in. When she makes an innocent error, no matter how annoying, even if it's the second time -- keep it light (as mentioned upthread) and remember this is a girl who [hopefully] loves to please you. Try not to default to critical-with-a-look-of-disgust (all too easy for me based on my own demons and negative sides).

We reached the gist of my question...

When I see that the girl UNDERSTANDS what I'm trying to tell her I can be very chill, funny, sweet and lighthearted calling her out. However when she doesn't even get it why something she does/says is annoying and doesn't want to get it, disagrees with me and refuses to keep in mind not to do it then I have a problem.

I can't let it go then as I know it will happen again cause she doesn't get it what I mean. I get nervous then cause I'm dealing with her stubbornness and unwillingness to cooperate, not with her unconscious actions. Then one word leads to another, she's playing dumb, I stop playing nice, things tend to get nasty.

I'm fully aware that there's a lot of my fault in that as well as others do not have same problems.

[RatInTheWoods]

Girlfriend training is a frustrating and difficult process, requiring patience and effort.

Sadly when you trade up or reset the NRE with a new girlfriend, the whole process has to be repeated from scratch.

Techniques:

Communicate expectations: Tell her your requirements, tell stories of "terrible behavior" of your friends girlfriends that ruined their relationships (made up ones - observe her reaction), mention "dream girlfriends of the past where you nearly got married because they had x,y,z traits. etc

Reward good behavior: praise and repay the kind of behavior you approve of

Punish bad behavior: withdraw gifts, favors, affection, go ghost, cold shoulder, soft next etc.

Ampliy her bad traits with a "how do you like it" type of frame.

[Eddie Winslow]

(01-09-2017 01:26 PM)Turnus Wrote:  

It's a fine line.

It is indeed a fine line. It all comes down to boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Everyone has their own tolerance level when it comes to bad or inconsiderate behavior. The key to quality relationships and healthy self-worth/self-esteem is to have rock solid boundaries. If she crosses a line she shouldn't cross, she ABSOLUTELY MUST pay the consequences, whatever they are - no exceptions. The primary purpose of this is to maintain your own self-respect. Know your boundaries and the actions you will take once they are crossed, and protect them at all costs. As long as you do that, she'll respect you.

She will argue her case as to why the boundary wasn't actually crossed, why it's not her fault for crossing it, why your boundary is wrong or stupid in the first place, and bring up times YOU messed up to make you feel guilty. If you cut her any amount of slack for any reason, she will take note of it as a weakness and re-use it to break you down slowly. I don't even think they mean to do it - it's just in their nature.

[torridon747]

(01-10-2017 04:45 PM)Eddie Winslow Wrote:  

(01-09-2017 01:26 PM)Turnus Wrote:  

It's a fine line.

It is indeed a fine line. It all comes down to boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Everyone has their own tolerance level when it comes to bad or inconsiderate behavior. The key to quality relationships and healthy self-worth/self-esteem is to have rock solid boundaries. If she crosses a line she shouldn't cross, she ABSOLUTELY MUST pay the consequences, whatever they are - no exceptions. The primary purpose of this is to maintain your own self-respect. Know your boundaries and the actions you will take once they are crossed, and protect them at all costs. As long as you do that, she'll respect you.

She will argue her case as to why the boundary wasn't actually crossed, why it's not her fault for crossing it, why your boundary is wrong or stupid in the first place, and bring up times YOU messed up to make you feel guilty. If you cut her any amount of slack for any reason, she will take note of it as a weakness and re-use it to break you down slowly. I don't even think they mean to do it - it's just in their nature.

Good post. I've been learning this the hard way. I've actuall stopped caring if they do it on purpose or not. I've been treating it as intentional.

[XXL]

(01-10-2017 04:45 PM)Eddie Winslow Wrote:  

It is indeed a fine line. It all comes down to boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Everyone has their own tolerance level when it comes to bad or inconsiderate behavior. The key to quality relationships and healthy self-worth/self-esteem is to have rock solid boundaries. If she crosses a line she shouldn't cross, she ABSOLUTELY MUST pay the consequences, whatever they are - no exceptions. The primary purpose of this is to maintain your own self-respect. Know your boundaries and the actions you will take once they are crossed, and protect them at all costs. As long as you do that, she'll respect you.

She will argue her case as to why the boundary wasn't actually crossed, why it's not her fault for crossing it, why your boundary is wrong or stupid in the first place, and bring up times YOU messed up to make you feel guilty. If you cut her any amount of slack for any reason, she will take note of it as a weakness and re-use it to break you down slowly. I don't even think they mean to do it - it's just in their nature.

That's my train of thought. That's what I usually do. It's hard for me to cut some slack for the reasons you mentioned. Besides, that little unresolved issue that bothers me will happen again and become new standard if I ignore it now and I will not be able to come back to that later to work it out as it's already established then.

I probably should have mentioned that my GFs tend to be high tempered

[John Michael Kane]

Speaking of fine lines, I think it is important for a man in a LTR to know when to let something drop, and not correct for every minor annoyance. Quite frankly, if you harp on an otherwise good girl too much, you'll slowly kill her feminine joy if she feels she can never please you. That's a dangerous game to play in a LTR with an otherwise good girl that you go overboard looking for infractions. Ask yourself: Is this really a big deal? If she being disrespectful or just a bit careless? Your reaction and response (if any) needs to be proportional to the issue, if you need to even respond at all. Both men and women can henpeck each other over petty crap. Men constantly complaining to their woman also makes them look rather passive aggressive and whinny. Far better to correct only when needed so it has more weight in her mind, and use positive reinforcement for when she does right by you. It is far easier to maintain peace in a LTR through picking the right woman, plus using positive reinforcement regularly (so she associates making you happy with making herself happy) and keep the corrective tone stern, but not a wild blow up. Use correction like a father would with a young child. Firm, but loving. It works.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(01-10-2017 12:42 PM)LeoneVolpe Wrote:  

Do any of you guys have a preferred method of handling the "silent treatment"? Seems the best solution I've found is to play the game right back. If you try to talk to them, text/call them, whatever -- it just plays into their hand and they thrive on the power they feel when they've got you chasing them.

Go out.

"I'm going to the shops. Text me if you need anything."

If you've got your emotions under control you'll be able to walk out the door, breathe out and be fancy free by the time you've closed the garden gate.

Meanwhile she'll be burning through emotional energy like a furnace.

By the time you get back you can take the tack of "oh, are we still doing this". By then she'll usually be ready to completely cave in. Go straight to sex. Game over.

[General Stalin]

Older more mature women will appreciate when you put your foot down about things firmly (but don't overdo it and be a harsh asshole about it). Younger girls will likely throw a hissy fit because children don't like being told "no." Makes them feel self conscious and insecure and that usually manifests as backlash, bur regardless they will correct if they know that not doing so means losing you (assuming they care about not losing you).

My delivery is just firm, short, and simple. I am not jokey or fun about behavior correction because I'm jokey and fun pretty much all the time so for me anyway there needs to be distinction between when I'm just being my casual fun self and when I'm being serious and addressing an issue. A simple "I don't like when you do/say/talk about that" "Please don't do/say/talk about that anymore" etc.

That said I may not be the best person to ask and I defer to the LTR vets here. All my legit LTRs where in my younger years when I knew shit about how to manage a woman. I know more now but I also tend to avoid LTRs so I haven't had much opportunity to put my new mindset into practice.

[Nascimento]

This thread needs AnonymousBosch.

[Ivanis]

(01-11-2017 06:13 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  

This thread needs AnonymousBosch.

Sorry, couldn't resist.




Regarding the actual subject; I think it is best to nip any behavior you do not deem acceptable immediately with no remorse. Not only are you letting off masculine energy, you are making it clear who is in charge of the relationship. Only be stern when she crosses your predetermined line, other than that, ignore all of the other minor annoyances.

[Ivanis]

dupe

[The Black Knight]

If it's something minor/small:

Agree/amplify and humorous teasing are very effective and usually keeps things drama free.

For more serious stuff (hard challenges to your authority, masculinity, wasting your time, refusing to cooperate just to be difficult, etc):

Usually they get one verbal warning to correct themselves and if they don't 100% fall in line immediately, I grab my shit and leave and ghost until I hear from them. I'll probably go bang another chick in the meantime. Most women crack after 3 days. If you don't hear from the woman within a few days, she doesn't give a shit and/or cares about you enough to unfuck herself. In either case, you don't want to waste your time with a bitch like that anyway. Not for a LTR/GF at least.

One the greatest hard lessons I've learned is that misbehaving women generally don't respond favorably to in-depth conversations or long talks that address their misbehavior. They respond to action. Not any kind of action but immediate and harsh action (i.e. walking out and ghosting).

The funny thing is that it takes virtually no time or energy to do the aforementioned and it is 100 times more effective than almost all of the far more demanding "talking your problems out" conversations you could have with a woman to correct bad behavior.

You want a woman to believe you will walk out on her for any kind of misbehavior beyond the superficial. She needs to be aware of this from day 1 ideally; to set the tone that your attention is not something to be taken for granted nor will you tolerate stupid bullshit that wastes your time.

As the quote from the film Heat goes: "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."

[eskimobobseal]

Withdraw. Don't yell every time, don't get overemotional, just withdraw. Stop texting, stop calling, pretend they don't exist.

When you show them no attention after they do something wrong it sends a clear message. This form of punishment is worse than anything else you can do. Women thrive on attention.

EDIT: I should say, this is for when she does something really bad. Like snaps at you and says something very disrespectful in the heat of the moment, or something along those lines.

[General Stalin]

I agree with Black Knight. From my personal observations and experiences, women responded to action rather than words and reasoning. Obviously don't just abruptly go silent with no explanation - give a short and firm verbal distaste/warning for her transgressions and if she does not correct then make your move. It's really a no-loss scenario. She either fixes her shit up quick and maybe you got some pussy on the side while you stepped out, or she doesn't fix herself and you just got a real quick and clean exit with no BS necessary.

Also, while slightly off-topic, I think it's important to iterate here that all men should position themselves in a way that a conniving woman can't have a lot of leverage over them. Don't move into their place if you are going to live together - have them move to yours. This way they can't legally lock you out or keep your shit hostage.

[456]

(01-10-2017 04:02 PM)XXL Wrote:  

We reached the gist of my question...

When I see that the girl UNDERSTANDS what I'm trying to tell her I can be very chill, funny, sweet and lighthearted calling her out. However when she doesn't even get it why something she does/says is annoying and doesn't want to get it, disagrees with me and refuses to keep in mind not to do it then I have a problem.

I can't let it go then as I know it will happen again cause she doesn't get it what I mean. I get nervous then cause I'm dealing with her stubbornness and unwillingness to cooperate, not with her unconscious actions. Then one word leads to another, she's playing dumb, I stop playing nice, things tend to get nasty.

I'm fully aware that there's a lot of my fault in that as well as others do not have same problems.

^^-- XXL, let's say there are a few levels:

1) she gets it, stops

( frustration zone: )

2) she gets it, tries to stop but is forgetful or it's too "complex" for her -- maybe she doesn't get it

( possible red flag zone: )

3) she sees it but Won't get it, refuses to stop, etc., even after an appeal to decency or personal preference


I know you made this thread for general knowledge on this topic, but perhaps a specific example would help elucidate? If you're into level 3, in my experience, that's a bad sign of a disrespectful undercurrent or fault line in the relationship.

[Mufasa]

(01-10-2017 02:41 PM)XXL Wrote:  

(01-09-2017 01:35 PM)Mufasa Wrote:  

If she wants an argument give her one.

Haven't had a LTR since HS (no time) but with a girl that was the closest I've had to that she tried to make me feel bad about something so I layed into her. I actually said "you want an argument you got one." In all my dealings with women they are rarely right or they get tweeked off one thing even though theres 20 right things going on.

I'll make a point to point out how we have all these good things going on and:
"you're trying to destroy us over this?!?"

When she started to back pedal I kept the foot on the gas of guilting her on her selfishness and whatever for liking me, enjoying me, having great sex, feeling safe, and trying to destroy it all.

We never had an argument again. I shit you not.

Things have changed since high school

lol nahhh man. I hadn't had a LTR since high school but this girl was last year (2016) she was 26. Should have stated that my bad.

Also I suggest the Biege Philip Show podcast. A lot of quality practical shit on bitch management and girls who are habitual line steppers.
My decision to just give my girl the argument and ether her ass was actually an approach they discussed on the podcast.

They also have a move where you just get up and walk out without saying a word. Come back and if she starts again--walk back out. lol

[XXL]

(01-12-2017 01:11 AM)The Black Knight Wrote:  

One the greatest hard lessons I've learned is that misbehaving women generally don't respond favorably to in-depth conversations or long talks that address their misbehavior. They respond to action. Not any kind of action but immediate and harsh action (i.e. walking out and ghosting).

The funny thing is that it takes virtually no time or energy to do the aforementioned and it is 100 times more effective than almost all of the far more demanding "talking your problems out" conversations you could have with a woman to correct bad behavior.

You want a woman to believe you will walk out on her for any kind of misbehavior beyond the superficial. She needs to be aware of this from day 1 ideally; to set the tone that your attention is not something to be taken for granted nor will you tolerate stupid bullshit that wastes your time.

As the quote from the film Heat goes: "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."

That's my goal for 2017. No more bullshit, no more drama. Not getting into arguments in the heat of the moment. Thanks for reminder.

[XXL]

(01-12-2017 12:51 PM)456 Wrote:  

(01-10-2017 04:02 PM)XXL Wrote:  

We reached the gist of my question...

When I see that the girl UNDERSTANDS what I'm trying to tell her I can be very chill, funny, sweet and lighthearted calling her out. However when she doesn't even get it why something she does/says is annoying and doesn't want to get it, disagrees with me and refuses to keep in mind not to do it then I have a problem.

I can't let it go then as I know it will happen again cause she doesn't get it what I mean. I get nervous then cause I'm dealing with her stubbornness and unwillingness to cooperate, not with her unconscious actions. Then one word leads to another, she's playing dumb, I stop playing nice, things tend to get nasty.

I'm fully aware that there's a lot of my fault in that as well as others do not have same problems.

^^-- XXL, let's say there are a few levels:

1) she gets it, stops

( frustration zone: )

2) she gets it, tries to stop but is forgetful or it's too "complex" for her -- maybe she doesn't get it

( possible red flag zone: )

3) she sees it but Won't get it, refuses to stop, etc., even after an appeal to decency or personal preference


I know you made this thread for general knowledge on this topic, but perhaps a specific example would help elucidate? If you're into level 3, in my experience, that's a bad sign of a disrespectful undercurrent or fault line in the relationship.

If she gets it and stops that's perfect.

If she gets it, tries to stop but is forgetful or it's too "complex" for her -- maybe she doesn't get it... that's fine to me, she's trying but sometimes slips, at least she's aware. I can explain her once again. That's OK

If she sees it but won't get it, refuses to stop, etc. then I'm getting nervous cause she's not cooperating with me on purpose. That's what I'm talking about.

Example is... I tell not to talk to me like that cause XYZ. She's surprised, doesn't get it, I explain, she objects saying I'm just nagging and it's stupid, I disagree trying to tell her again what I mean, she's starting to feel attacked and harassed, emotions take over, she stops listening to me, etc etc, argument arrives.

I mean really? All I wanted was to tell her not to talk to me certain passive aggressive way cause it's clear sign that she has something on her mind about me but chooses to get it across by shaming, blaming, accusing, etc which is not cool. If I don't pick it and she want me to call her back she should just tell me that "hey babe please call me as soon as possible I have something to ask you". How fucking hard is that? But no.. she has to text me bullshit like "oh you're so busy again, I wonder what you're so busy with, seems like you don't even want to talk to me... " implying that I'm not picking up purposefully to piss her off [she had victim syndrome, whatever happens always she's the victim]. Then her simple question turned into 45 minutes convo about this bullshit she's texting, omg..

It's about not listening what I'm saying. Being oversensitive. Taking every remark very personally even though I call out her action, not her as a person. Taking every criticism very badly as if I'm trying to disrespect her [I'm not, there's no point].

Again, no more bullshit. I will not engage in any argument with any girl this year. I have enough. I want live in peace

[Beirut]

Very good thread. Wanted to ask something like that a while back since i often reflect on that subject. Ringo pretty much gave the ultimate datasheet on what one can do.

Im a very laid back guy and dont like to think about petty things, when a girl does something small, i recognize that it will snowball into a recurrent problem but on the other hand my brain tells me "i cant believe im gonna spend 5 minutes arguing over something so silly".

So i do get these issues a lot.

However, most of the time i think this: SCREENING BETTER IS THE ONLY SOLUTION. Just find a girl, recognize whatever flaws she has, and decide if you can live with them.
A large part of me thinks that "giving her the talk" "trying to reason with her" simply doesnt work. Maybe women just arent wired like that. I see something so obviously silly and i see the rational alternative to it, but you can spend two hours talking to a girl, and itll just fly over head.

In in one ear and out the other.

If you talk to her firmly, yes the behavior will stop, because now she fears your reaction, but imo two things remain:

1- It can find a way to spill out in another way/situation/behavior. Like she has a pile of shitty behavior that has to come out somehow.

2- The underlying cause of this behavior and the character and cognitive abilities that cause it will remain unchanged. If a girl makes a very stupid remark pestering you with it, i can get her to stop. But why did she make it in the first place? Why would she even bother with something silly and petty like that? Why would she rationally think thats a fair point?

Shes wired like that. And no amount of talking i will do will change that, in my opinion.

[RatInTheWoods]

Women love to create drama, it makes them feel alive. They just can't help testing and baiting you to create all those feelings.

Its so annoying and frustrating.

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

No amount of logic will transform her behavior. She makes up the "rules" as she goes along and most times her whims/thoughts won't be in alignment with yours.

Women are driven by incentive (like the rest of us). They're natural currency is emotion. What's in it for her is the continuation of good feelz through your continued presence and the intangibles you are bringing to the table. Learned this the hard way.

You can reason with her until you are confident that you have a mutual understanding only to have her do a complete 180 shortly there after. The problem is that 'understanding' in her mind is contingent on her feelings, the circumstances and if the sun is sitting at the right angle in the sky at 3:00 on Tuesday afternoon. In other words, it's all negotiable.

I'm a proponent of tapping into the emotional energy she gets from my involvement in her life. You are essentially the sun providing warmth, well being, growth and energy. However, sometimes it is necessary to withdraw that comfort in order for her to feel that "chill" and recognize that your continued presence in her life hinges on her overall behavior towards you.

[Kinko]

Im abusive towards her in public. And I enjoy abusing her and making her cry her fake tears, and then I blame her for stuff she did not do, and then verbally abuse her, call her a whore, and be cold as ice with no feelings for her what so ever. Then I tie her up for her own good and start bruising specific parts of her skin with my teeth for marking my territory. Sometimes I do it painfully. Slap her across the face tear off her clothes and then have my way with her.