[Jefferson]

I read WIA's advice in one thread that said you need to teach a woman how to love you and please you and hope she is receptive. This makes sense. Whilst there are some, from Corey Wayne to XXL on this forum, who say that you should not control the girl, but let her be free, the issue arises that you want the girl to learn how to please you.

In my experience, I have been in 3 longer LTRs, a girl needs direction. However, I sometimes have trouble in exerting the right amount of control. This varies with each girl, the current level of attraction and so on, but I wonder if there are some generic control rules that you apply in an LTR? Roosh for example advocated that you ask a girl to put her mobile phone away when she is interacting with you.

So my question: Do you have any rules, control methods, and if so, how do you know that something else is a 'step too far'? An obvious rule I have is that ex boyfriends have to be removed from all social media, however, you can then get into territory where you ask any male high school friends who had a crush on her be removed, she has to show she is in a relationship with you, or have a profile pic with you in it, which some would consider a step too far.

[Jefferson]

So when is a rule a step too far?

I suppose the first thing is to consider what you want to achieve. This has to be tailored to the girl. If the girl is very hot and has a strong social media addiction the goal may be to curtail the social media addiction and to limit the chances of her having contact with exes or other guys.

In the end we all want a compliant girlfriend who wants to please only us, is focused on us.

So you need to be careful not to antagonise her with rules that would impede that goal. That are a step too far. But equally there have to be some rules in place, surely? All this 'love them so they feel free' can't work in real life, surely?

[The Golden God]

If you think that you can teach and mold a girl into being your dream girl, you're in for a disappointment.

If a girl has a social media addiction (i.e. serial attention seeker) you're not gonna change that.

Roosh talking about telling a girl to put her phone away is not a way of controlling the girl, it's telling her that if she makes plans with you, you expect her to behave like an adult.

Quote:

An obvious rule I have is that ex boyfriends have to be removed from all social media

You come to her and request this, this is exactly what's going through her mind:
- You're insecure and you think her exes are higher value than you, so you need them gone.
- You aren't an experienced man and you are scared of things that you can't control.
- You are a jealous guy that can be emotionally manipulated by his lack of confidence.

All that you can do is select a girl who has traditional values.

If she isn't already traditionally feminine, some random dude is not going to entirely alter her thinking, no matter how tight your game is. Once women are out of the control of their parents, they are done with learning their values and will go with whatever society pushes on them. Women are social creatures, not logical.

Playing captain-save-a-hoe is only going to burn up the energy you could be using to find a girl that you don't have to aggressively attempt to control - a girl who doesn't have a high notch count, who came from a conservative family and has not been exposed to the toxic culture we have in the west today.

[Flux]

You can't teach a woman if you're not prepared to leave her at any moment. That's what's so difficult about beautiful women.

You have to genuinely from the bottom of your heart, not give a fuck, while at the same time love her enough to train her.

They require a lot of love too, so the the love for yourself has to be sky high, so that you still think you're better than her, after giving her so much--you have to love your appearance, love your brain, love your emotions--100%. Love what you bring to the world, the value, how others see you, how you are as a leader.

You have to basically think, and know, you're a bad ass motherfucker that could have any girl in the world. Your purpose has to be challenging enough, that you think you deserve a beautiful, loyal woman.

You lose that frame, you lose the girl.

[lunchmoney]

Most western women do not want to be taught. Let that sink in for a moment. In the world we live in, where there are betas orbiting around them telling them how beautiful and great they are 24/7 via social media, it takes an extreme amount of effort to attempt to control a modern woman.

[NoMoreTO]

It is hard to influence a girl until she is fully in her feminine and basically follows your lead. A western girl takes time to get to this stage

In early stages I would prefer to use positive influence:

Eg. Gym:
"Oh you look hot in your gym gear, I love checking you out while you work out"
Something like this will encourage her to go to the gym. You can't tell her to go to the gym.


Its hard in the west. I feel it takes 3 months to get the feminist trust edge off of a girl and get her into her real femininity.
Vs. In Colombia they are feminine from day 1

[Graft]

(11-15-2018 10:05 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

So my question: Do you have any rules, control methods, and if so, how do you know that something else is a 'step too far'? An obvious rule I have is that ex boyfriends have to be removed from all social media, however, you can then get into territory where you ask any male high school friends who had a crush on her be removed, she has to show she is in a relationship with you, or have a profile pic with you in it, which some would consider a step too far.

The best way to handle the phone/texting/social media with other boys is to:
1. Accept that almost every hot girl is going to have social media and a cell phone. Guys are going to try and text her and DM her all the time.
2. Set up your life and social media so that you are always talking to other hot girls. Once she knows you have that many easy options, she will be the one checking your phone, wanting your passwords.

I used to be a much more controlling type. I still am controlling, but I like to exert the control by flexing my SMV and amount of options at my fingertips, constantly giving dread game.

[dknightbro]

I'd start by actually not caring.

You can't control a high SMV girl from attracting attention.

You could play that game, but I've seen what it entails & yeah, I'd rather not. Even if somehow I do, I legit don't care/am unaffected by her games and she'll sense it sooner or later.

The person who cares less wins.

[No More Mr. Soy Boy]

At 51:25-54:00 something really profound is said about this...

Quote:

Donovan Sharpe:

I'm going to take this on a micro and macro level...

If your woman is out of pocket, that is on you. Your woman, her behaviour and her representation of you is a reflection of you. So if you see a man with a slovenly unfit woman who was poorly behaved and rude etc. then that reflects poorly on the man, wheter you like it, or know it or not.

I agree with not putting all the responsibility on the man but in your world, on a micro level, you have to take responsibility for your woman.

A lot of guys make this mistake when they start dating women. It's when they angle for the relationship first. They say "hey, we've been fucking for 6 months and I'd like to take this to the next level now". The girl will of course say "ok" but here is where they go wrong. When they angle for the relationship first and THEN they try to make all the rules.

But as soon as you ask your woman to be your girlfriend, you lose all the power. Just like when you put a ring on her finger. This is because when you ask her to be your girlfriend, you are directly and indirectly telling her that she has successfully filled out all the qualifications and that she is now worthy of your commitment, my affection and my resources etc.

Guys will go, "hey, be my girlfriend and by the way, don't text your ex anymore, you need to close your tinder account". A lot of guys try to set these ground rules but they don't do it in the beginning just because they're getting pussy. This is what men need to understand; she is going after your last name, your commitment and affection and what we have to offer to women is worth far more than what they have to offer to us.

Yes, femininity is great and it has restorative properties and there's nothing like coming home to a beautiful woman who worships and cooks for you and lets you fuck her every night. But what we have to understand is that we bring so much more to a woman's life than she could potentially bring into ours. That's the way the dynamic has to be, so when a man angles for the relationship first, he is an essence saying to her that what she brings to the table is more valuable than what you bring to the table and that's when they end up getting out of pocket, disrespectful etc.

Men allow this to happen. On a macro level, women couldn't do anything without men.

This is fucking HUGE, I think. I can just go to myself. My current "main" treats me like a king today, for real. After the huge failure I felt with my last relationship, with a bitch, I had this thought that I would never get into a relationship again and probably just live like a player for the rest of my life.

Since this girl I'm seeing now is the one fighting to turn this into a real relationship, I notice I have a lot of power and can put her in the direction I want.

I've been able to create this bubble with her (actually she often mentions this, how she feels like we have our own bubble) where most people in the world are average and pretty much losers. Asked her last night if she had been to the gym yet, just like I expected her to go in a sort of way. And she went there of course cause she has adapted a bit of my mindset about setting higher standards.

Side note is that I also got her to quit smoking within a month and a half because I told her that I don't see myself being a LTR with someone who smokes. She has smoked for years so apparently her parents are curious to meet me now.

(11-15-2018 10:57 PM)Graft Wrote:  

The best way to handle the phone/texting/social media with other boys is to:
1. Accept that almost every hot girl is going to have social media and a cell phone. Guys are going to try and text her and DM her all the time.
2. Set up your life and social media so that you are always talking to other hot girls. Once she knows you have that many easy options, she will be the one checking your phone, wanting your passwords.

I used to be a much more controlling type. I still am controlling, but I like to exert the control by flexing my SMV and amount of options at my fingertips, constantly giving dread game.

A very important criteria for a mother of my children is wheter she's a complete sheep/NPC or if she actually has the ability to think for herself.
I think it's dumb to accept a girlfriend to be like that just because most people are brainless and waste their lives on social media nowadays. Those are of the sort of girls you pump and dump.

Screw that, there are still some girls out there who are not narcissistic and dull. The current one I'm seeing said it was important for her to find a guy who was not into social media too. You attract what you project in a way and will have a harder time actually finding a real good woman if you yourself are demonstrating sheep behaviour.

Why would I be on there just to try to show other people I'm high SMV like everyone else and waste my time on that bullshit? No way.

It's important to have integrity and belief in your own values and standards and not changing them just for some pussy.

[Tiger Man]

Agreed on all points so far.

There are girls that are traditional and feminine. But, now, most aren't. And there is no acceptable amount of training that is going to fix that. It is like breaking a wild horse. Of course, time and aging should temper her feral nature. But, that isn't real feminine submission. It's merely one more tool out of the girl's toolbox. She will play the part to get what she wants. The minute you aren't giving that to her, she will blow up your life. Again, post-wall personality transformations are 99.999% play acting.

But there is one (fairly dark triad) thing that hasn't been covered yet.

Assuming you aren't Henry Cavill Alpha++ Chad, there is still a way you can exert a serious amount of control over a relationship. There is that old meme of "True Love Exists Two Points Down the SMV Scale" or whatever. The same can be said of respect or submission. This won't work for all girls. There are some feminist ham planets who would tell a GQ model to go screw himself. But, if you are a well put together guy who knows his shit, a girl who is clearly beneath you in market value will be much more pliable. Of course, you are basically running constant, in-the-background dread game on the girl. And, I don't know many men who want a girl significantly lower than them on SMV. With all that said, you can definitely make this work if you want to take the attractiveness hit. Your call.

[Noir]

At the risk of sounding harsh, a lot of posters on this forum post things based off theory, not experience, especially with beautiful women. For this reason, a lot of posts are negative and for the same reason, you probably have these thoughts and made a thread.

It with experience and a curious mind that you notice trends, behavioural patterns and realize it's not as cut and dry as people make it out to be. It's more than just SMV but yes, that helps for the baseline you operate off.

Tiger man, I aim to have a woman who is the same as me (there is no one above me on the scale, I believe this 100%). I don't date down, not anymore.

Some thoughts and personal experience to give you some perspective.

If you’re looking to exert control in a LTR it means you don’t have enough bargaining power. Some is given to you by virtue of what she thinks of you and how much self-esteem you give her. Again, this is another self-esteem category but I don’t want to focus too much on it in this post, I have written elsewhere about this.

You will hear the usual, be aloof, disinterested and all permutations of breaking rapport. This works but it’s not always fun. I enjoy my woman’s company and the person that I am around her so when I find myself breaking rapport, it can be difficult as the natural response emerges when she fucks up. The hard way is when everything is going well. Yet, I do it on the high points to keep her on her toes so when she fucks up, it’s more of a sincere, face to face, ‘you fucked up’ kind of discussion.

The more you try and control someone, the more they will rebel so you have to be sly about it.

A few pointers and remember that women are just pinging off what you put out there.

a) The person who is less invested will control the relationship. This doesn’t seem the case in your example.

b) Preselection will see her mould into what you want because she wants you to herself over others.

c) You can choose the carrot or the stick. Girls I have been with know my temper and standards that the stick is scary and I never need to resort to it so the carrot works for me. The key here is to never lose your temper, only let her know that you have one.

d) You want to be unpredictable as women operate off feedback. Being unpredictable is important in the sense that you keep her on her toes as she won’t be too sure where she stands with you on a day by day basis. This is the bread and butter of breaking rapport because it's valuable when juxtaposed against the 'good times'. Don’t over do this as it creates insecurities in some and magnifies them in others and you will need to tolerate this shit.

e) Fuck her well and own her mind. This is understated on this forum. Women have 2 virginities. Their first and then the real one where you open them up to their sexuality. This gives you so much leverage that it takes care of any control requirements and stuff. It’s basically another thing that you offer her that she can get nowhere else. With all women you wanna ensure YOU are demand inelastic i.e. no matter what your fluctuations in behavior, her demand is sky high, like medicine for terminal illnesses. Charge it at $20, charge it at $2000; she needs it, she will pay the price.

f) Choose what you bitch about because too many ‘rules’ will set the frame of reprimanding and it dilutes the importance of each thing so act accordingly.

g) Be wary that not all red flags are equal. You have behavioural red flags that are past and present.

For the past red flags, you have to accept them because they are done and dusted. You take this into consideration as it made her who she is now. Harping on about them is weak and if you don’t like them then don’t take her in. Women are very ‘take it or leave it’ at times and you bringing up their past is one of them. They all regret and are shameful about it, especially when they realize you don’t like it. The more you harp on the more they hold you accountable for the bad feelings that they get when recalling it so this doesn’t help.

My personal rule for current red flags is the once rule. If it’s once, I observe it. If it happens again, I intervene to ensure it doesn’t become a trend. I will tell them something along the lines of “I trust you to deal with this but your first response wasn’t encouraging so you understand my reservations about you handling this again”

When I do this, I frame it as this is a game and we need to know we are playing by the same rules so we don’t have unnecessary misunderstandings. This is followed by throwing in the keyword of ‘communication’ i.e. “I am communicating this so we are on the same page. You wouldn’t want me to do the same to you and hurt you so let’s be aware of this.”

This rule also eliminates any excuses later on, should she transgress. Clarity is key here.

For example, this week, my girl deleted guys she slept with, off her Facebook as a guy messaged her a few weeks in, to meet up.

This was a response to something she did a few weeks ago:
She asked me if I think men and women can be friends if they’ve slept with each other. Doesn’t matter if she is naïve or this was a shit test as my response is uniform.
I told her “I am not your father and you can do what you want but be smart about this and understand there are consequences”.
She said “I understand and I wanted you to know about this”.
I responded "You reply and I will kick your ass to the curb, that’s the consequence here. Do it now if you must so I don’t waste my time here”.

Another guy messaged her on Sunday and I knew it immediately, when she received the message, because she exhaled and rolled her eyes. I mentioned nothing until Wednesday when she asked me what I was doing and I told her I am doing some writing. Naturally, she wanted to know about what and I said ‘us’.

I then saw her that evening and told her the above (I trust you to deal with this etc.). I did this on a high point, when everything in her mind was perfect, to let her know that I know shit. I know fucking everything. She confirmed she never responded. Yesterday, I noticed she deleted both guys and I think a few more based off the amount of friends she has. I know how many she slept with, at 22 and it's an acceptable number for me especially as I am on 3-4x as many.

My point is, it’s not healthy and I don’t care because I set the rules and she knows. If she does anything stupid, it won’t be for lack of knowing that it’s wrong and it makes my decision automatic, should it happen. Will it happen? Highly unlikely, at least at this stage. Again, women are women.

It’s a problem when your girlfriend is beautiful and in high demand. Guys want 8s and 9s but underestimate the mental RAM required to juggle them and their intricacies. Especially the younger ones who are naive and malleable because you can't trust them to handle shit as much. You're operating off a smaller pool of reference points.
All the DMs and shit come from guys they have slept with once upon a time or guys in social/work circles who they see over a prolonged time period which explains your insecurity and wanting to impose control.

I frame this male thirsty behaviour as weak (to her) when it comes up and she sees it that way too which kinda does the job for me. Never directly always indirectly. I am fortunate that I have a story for each situation and able to frame it accordingly. Then I can tie it with any specific thing that annoys me, to reference e.g. "Remember when x did so and so? It's quite similar to this" - given that she knows that x in the story fucked up, did something stupid or made her or me lose respect for that individual. A lot of communication with women works this way.

Your 'value' will invariably decide if she strays or misbehaves and your responses to shit/pressure tests, situations and general demeanor decides how much she feels she can get away with.

I have a moral code and principles that I make clear in the beginning. I find ways to thread them into conversations because it sticks best when there’s an example that she can relate to that comes up organically. Otherwise it seems bossy and demanding. Bossy and demanding is fine if it’s on high points but on low points, it’s weak.

I make shit clear from the start, once I have decided to upgrade her from my rotation. It’s like a job offer once you finish your probationary period. Rules are rules. Women only obey by the rules when they know the alternative is worse and when they acknowledge there is punishment when rules are broken.

Of course, the punishment is in the form of withdrawal of their ‘oxygen’; attention, validation, approval and basically access to YOU. YOU here means the person you are around her when you let your guard down, what she has fallen in love with and the potential ticket she has based off the ambition and future you are working towards.

Outliers exist and they are who we look for but this is a general rule of thumb; trust your gut in this. Don't go out assuming every woman is breaking rules or anything as such. I am a innocent until proven guilty kinda guy because I am emotionally immune to such things and try and live my life as positive as possible. Unfortunately, many men, this forum included, are a guilty until proven innocent bunch which causes negativity and insecurity.

As per making shit clear, you can see I am more of a preventative guy than a remedial one and I will positively set up the environment for her to not require being controlled.

This means that I will set up positive cues/triggers in her environment and mind.

Habits and behaviours follow the trigger/cue -> routine -> reward loop. You can apply this to your woman. The personal bubble that you create and the inside jokes you have to amplify this means that she is reminded of you by little things and this is powerful as you want her addicted to you and we fall in love in the absence of the presence of that person.

Unfortunately, my LTR master post has disappeared into the abyss of the internet but read these two posts, concerning this.

Training your girl - I think you will find this pretty useful within the context of your post.

Your value in a relationship

I also suggest reading Influence by Cialdini for certain behavioural cues to put out there for her to comply with. You can find a summary of it on this forum too.

[Jefferson]

(11-15-2018 05:02 PM)The Golden God Wrote:  

If you think that you can teach and mold a girl into being your dream girl, you're in for a disappointment.

I have been in two long-time LTR's before, one of 12 years and one of 17 years, in each one the girl was molded and changed. In the first one I was very young, fit and attractive, I was 18 and she was 27, so my SMV was somewhat above hers, she was by far more invested than I was. She changed a lot with me actually, I pushed her limits sexually to an extent where I found out we were actually not sexually compatible, she was still a virgin, I made clear that I expect her to do all the housework, she learned to cook, etc. It ended when she noticed that my aloofness, absolute refusal to marry, as well as running in a social circle of younger people meant she would not get what she wanted out of the relationship, especially in a material sense as I refused to marry. I came home one day and my house was half-emptied by her and her brothers as she'd loaded everything up on a truck and left to her home country, the Netherlands.

So, not a dream girl, but certainly molded and changed. Though unfortunately not a good choice due to age and sexual inclination.

The second girl I met shortly after, she was 19, pretty face and I was in my prime with an excellent job. Again my SMV was slightly above hers. This was different though she out of herself gave everything she had to give, sexually and in every other way. She was way beyond expectations. However, as 17 years went by and she had children things changed. The children became her focus. Though I had again molded and changed her the way I wanted, we were sexually very compatible, she just changed and focused on the children. This time it was me who felt he was not getting what he wanted and I left.

The third girl I am now dealing with maybe has the highest SMV I've had so far, and of course at 47 mine has declined somewhat. She is the problem case. She is a narcissist, selfie addict, constantly publishing on Facebook and Insta. I have in fact succeeded in having a beneficial effect on this mental illness, she has reduced her friends down to 10% of what it used to be, all thirsty orbiters, ex bfs, and so on have all been deleted at my direction. It was a battle, it was not easy, but it got done. Of course this caused agression at the time, but it passed we're still in it, it's our third year.

So what I am saying, girls CAN be molded and changed, if you have the experience of very long LTRs you will find it is so. I found it to be the case.

(11-15-2018 05:02 PM)The Golden God Wrote:  

Roosh talking about telling a girl to put her phone away is not a way of controlling the girl, it's telling her that if she makes plans with you, you expect her to behave like an adult.

It is of course a way of controlling a girl if you ask her to put her mobile phone away. And a very sensible one. Like Roosh I've done it many times. It's exactly that teaching her to behave as you would like.

(11-15-2018 05:02 PM)The Golden God Wrote:  

Quote:

An obvious rule I have is that ex boyfriends have to be removed from all social media

You come to her and request this, this is exactly what's going through her mind:
- You're insecure and you think her exes are higher value than you, so you need them gone.
- You aren't an experienced man and you are scared of things that you can't control.
- You are a jealous guy that can be emotionally manipulated by his lack of confidence.

Jealousy is an expected part of life, a girl expects a man to be jealous sometimes, just as we don't overthink when a girl gets jealous and dump her right away, a girl accepts that a man is jealous sometimes. I would rather have that, which passes, than have her communicating non-stop with a parade of thirsty orbiters and ex-boyfriends which merely creates opportunity and problems. It's precisely because I am experienced that I am concerned about such issues, and control what can be controlled. But you're right jealousy can be manipulated and has to be controlled of course.

[Jefferson]

(11-15-2018 05:17 PM)Flux Wrote:  

You can't teach a woman if you're not prepared to leave her at any moment. That's what's so difficult about beautiful women.

Obviously if she thinks you will leave that helps in the teaching process. However, in an LTR there comes a point when you are both invested past a point where walking out is unlikely and only going to happen upon major infractions. That is indeed a mighty, mighty problem if you are in a long term LTR with a beautiful woman.

(11-15-2018 05:17 PM)Flux Wrote:  

You have to genuinely from the bottom of your heart, not give a fuck, while at the same time love her enough to train her.

I hear this all the time, also from posters here that I greatly respect. However, I do not understand it, how can you not give a fuck about a very attractive woman living with you for many years? How is such a thing even possible? You can pretend not to give a fuck, but surely you actually do. She will know this. How would you stop yourself from not caring about someone who cares deeply for you, who makes your life better in many ways?

[Jefferson]

@ lunchmoney

Yes, it really does take a lot of effort. But some women are worth making an effort for.

The question is exactly what kind of form should this effort, ie control and direction, take.

[Jefferson]

(11-15-2018 06:34 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

It is hard to influence a girl until she is fully in her feminine and basically follows your lead. A western girl takes time to get to this stage

In early stages I would prefer to use positive influence:

Eg. Gym:
"Oh you look hot in your gym gear, I love checking you out while you work out"
Something like this will encourage her to go to the gym. You can't tell her to go to the gym.


Its hard in the west. I feel it takes 3 months to get the feminist trust edge off of a girl and get her into her real femininity.
Vs. In Colombia they are feminine from day 1

You're absolutely right, she has to be in love with you and follow your lead. This is crucial of course and I take it as given. My problem is that I tended to overdo the influencing. I made her delete all exes, all orbiters, none of whom were any threat really, and also asked her to delete a gay friend, I asked her to show she is in a relationship on FB, to post pictures of us on Insta, she did all of that, I asked her to send me updates every 30 minutes of what she does when we're apart, she did it.

But my concern is indeed when it is too much. I don't want to overstep the mark, and overdo it so that the control itself becomes an issue. I feel I am not subtle enough about it. I am clear. I get results but I think it does cause a certain amount of killing of attraction. So my question is how to do the control part, without killing the attraction. Your way is good, but I am dealing with a narcisst, BPD type person here.

[Jefferson]

Noir, first of all thank you for your insightful and highly interesting post. It's this kind of writing that makes me come here. Some absolute gems of advice. Allow me to ask a few questions below.

(11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:  

If you’re looking to exert control in a LTR it means you don’t have enough bargaining power. Some is given to you by virtue of what she thinks of you and how much self-esteem you give her.

You mean if I had huge SMV, other bargaining power, she would just behave in exactly the way that I want in order to please me? The thing is she does not know exactly what I want, I have to teach her. But you're right of course, in a way, in an ideal relationship you would have to exert no control whatsoever because she would want to behave exactly as you want, to please you. But this is the real world, it's not going to happen out of itself most of the time.

(11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:  

You will hear the usual, be aloof, disinterested and all permutations of breaking rapport. This works but it’s not always fun. I enjoy my woman’s company and the person that I am around her so when I find myself breaking rapport, it can be difficult as the natural response emerges when she fucks up. The hard way is when everything is going well. Yet, I do it on the high points to keep her on her toes so when she fucks up, it’s more of a sincere, face to face, ‘you fucked up’ kind of discussion.

Do I understand this correctly, you act aloof and disinterested when everything is going well to keep her on her toes?

(11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:  

The more you try and control someone, the more they will rebel so you have to be sly about it.

That is absolutely true, I found this to be the case exactly.

(11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:  

A few pointers and remember that women are just pinging off what you put out there.

a) The person who is less invested will control the relationship. This doesn’t seem the case in your example. [Well spotted, I overinvested far too heavily from the start, big mistake on my part. I am working on getting back control but it is an uphill struggle, and even PapayaTapper seems to have given up on that being possible. Like with some wild horses, there comes a point when you have to accept a horse is unteachable and you walk away and find a better horse]

b) Preselection will see her mould into what you want because she wants you to herself over others. [Yes, preselection is extremely important, as I found with my sexually incompatible first girl, and the child crazy second girl, none of which did it for me, the third girl ticks a lot of boxes, but seems to have some behavioural issues]

c) You can choose the carrot or the stick. Girls I have been with know my temper and standards that the stick is scary and I never need to resort to it so the carrot works for me. The key here is to never lose your temper, only let her know that you have one. [So if you do not lose your temper, how do they know the stick is scary? Can you give an example of when you unpacked the stick?]

d) You want to be unpredictable as women operate off feedback. Being unpredictable is important in the sense that you keep her on her toes as she won’t be too sure where she stands with you on a day by day basis. This is the bread and butter of breaking rapport because it's valuable when juxtaposed against the 'good times'. Don’t over do this as it creates insecurities in some and magnifies them in others and you will need to tolerate this shit. [Okay, but does this work in a very long term LTR, won't she KNOW where you stand after a good number of years together?]

e) Fuck her well and own her mind. This is understated on this forum. Women have 2 virginities. Their first and then the real one where you open them up to their sexuality. This gives you so much leverage that it takes care of any control requirements and stuff. It’s basically another thing that you offer her that she can get nowhere else. With all women you wanna ensure YOU are demand inelastic i.e. no matter what your fluctuations in behavior, her demand is sky high, like medicine for terminal illnesses. Charge it at $20, charge it at $2000; she needs it, she will pay the price. [Yes, I have that going for me, sexually I give her what she needs, without that I think we would be done now given the demands I have made]

f) Choose what you bitch about because too many ‘rules’ will set the frame of reprimanding and it dilutes the importance of each thing so act accordingly.[This is very important, to me anyway, because I tend to overdo it, so I will have to choose my battles more carefully. Excellent point]

g) Be wary that not all red flags are equal. You have behavioural red flags that are past and present.

For the past red flags, you have to accept them because they are done and dusted. You take this into consideration as it made her who she is now. Harping on about them is weak and if you don’t like them then don’t take her in. Women are very ‘take it or leave it’ at times and you bringing up their past is one of them. They all regret and are shameful about it, especially when they realize you don’t like it. The more you harp on the more they hold you accountable for the bad feelings that they get when recalling it so this doesn’t help. [Noir, this is absolutely excellent advice, which really applies in my case. Thank you]

My personal rule for current red flags is the once rule. If it’s once, I observe it. If it happens again, I intervene to ensure it doesn’t become a trend. I will tell them something along the lines of “I trust you to deal with this but your first response wasn’t encouraging so you understand my reservations about you handling this again” [Have you ever missed a red flag, ie let it slide and then had to correct it after?]

When I do this, I frame it as this is a game and we need to know we are playing by the same rules so we don’t have unnecessary misunderstandings. This is followed by throwing in the keyword of ‘communication’ i.e. “I am communicating this so we are on the same page. You wouldn’t want me to do the same to you and hurt you so let’s be aware of this.”[Nice way to put it. Much nicer than I would put it. Yours is better.]

This rule also eliminates any excuses later on, should she transgress. Clarity is key here.

For example, this week, my girl deleted guys she slept with, off her Facebook as a guy messaged her a few weeks in, to meet up.

This was a response to something she did a few weeks ago:
She asked me if I think men and women can be friends if they’ve slept with each other. Doesn’t matter if she is naïve or this was a shit test as my response is uniform.
I told her “I am not your father and you can do what you want but be smart about this and understand there are consequences”.
She said “I understand and I wanted you to know about this”.
I responded "You reply and I will kick your ass to the curb, that’s the consequence here. Do it now if you must so I don’t waste my time here”.

Another guy messaged her on Sunday and I knew it immediately, when she received the message, because she exhaled and rolled her eyes. I mentioned nothing until Wednesday when she asked me what I was doing and I told her I am doing some writing. Naturally, she wanted to know about what and I said ‘us’.

I then saw her that evening and told her the above (I trust you to deal with this etc.). I did this on a high point, when everything in her mind was perfect, to let her know that I know shit. I know fucking everything. She confirmed she never responded. Yesterday, I noticed she deleted both guys and I think a few more based off the amount of friends she has. I know how many she slept with, at 22 and it's an acceptable number for me especially as I am on 3-4x as many.

My point is, it’s not healthy and I don’t care because I set the rules and she knows. If she does anything stupid, it won’t be for lack of knowing that it’s wrong and it makes my decision automatic, should it happen. Will it happen? Highly unlikely, at least at this stage. Again, women are women.

It’s a problem when your girlfriend is beautiful and in high demand. Guys want 8s and 9s but underestimate the mental RAM required to juggle them and their intricacies. Especially the younger ones who are naive and malleable because you can't trust them to handle shit as much. You're operating off a smaller pool of reference points. [Very, very true, I can hardly go shopping with this girl, if I leave her in an aisle, she tells me a guy hit on her]
All the DMs and shit come from guys they have slept with once upon a time or guys in social/work circles who they see over a prolonged time period which explains your insecurity and wanting to impose control. [Absolutely true, this one ex of hers kept contacting her and even showed up where she lived, in another country to his. She was with me at the time, luckily]

I frame this male thirsty behaviour as weak (to her) when it comes up and she sees it that way too which kinda does the job for me. Never directly always indirectly. I am fortunate that I have a story for each situation and able to frame it accordingly. Then I can tie it with any specific thing that annoys me, to reference e.g. "Remember when x did so and so? It's quite similar to this" - given that she knows that x in the story fucked up, did something stupid or made her or me lose respect for that individual. A lot of communication with women works this way. [Great advice]

Your 'value' will invariably decide if she strays or misbehaves and your responses to shit/pressure tests, situations and general demeanor decides how much she feels she can get away with. [Unfortunately at this stage because I overinvested she felt she could get away with anything. I am working hard to correct this misunderstanding. It's not easy]

I have a moral code and principles that I make clear in the beginning. I find ways to thread them into conversations because it sticks best when there’s an example that she can relate to that comes up organically. Otherwise it seems bossy and demanding. Bossy and demanding is fine if it’s on high points but on low points, it’s weak. [Again, absolutely sterling advice, as the demanding and bossy pose is not well received, and easily slid into]

I make shit clear from the start, once I have decided to upgrade her from my rotation. It’s like a job offer once you finish your probationary period. Rules are rules. Women only obey by the rules when they know the alternative is worse and when they acknowledge there is punishment when rules are broken.

Of course, the punishment is in the form of withdrawal of their ‘oxygen’; attention, validation, approval and basically access to YOU. YOU here means the person you are around her when you let your guard down, what she has fallen in love with and the potential ticket she has based off the ambition and future you are working towards.

Outliers exist and they are who we look for but this is a general rule of thumb; trust your gut in this. Don't go out assuming every woman is breaking rules or anything as such. I am a innocent until proven guilty kinda guy [It's a good way to be, I should adopt that]because I am emotionally immune to such things and try and live my life as positive as possible. Unfortunately, many men, this forum included, are a guilty until proven innocent bunch which causes negativity and insecurity.

As per making shit clear, you can see I am more of a preventative guy than a remedial one and I will positively set up the environment for her to not require being controlled. [Excellent point]

This means that I will set up positive cues/triggers in her environment and mind.

Habits and behaviours follow the trigger/cue -> routine -> reward loop. You can apply this to your woman. The personal bubble that you create and the inside jokes you have to amplify this means that she is reminded of you by little things and this is powerful as you want her addicted to you and we fall in love in the absence of the presence of that person.

Unfortunately, my LTR master post has disappeared into the abyss of the internet but read these two posts, concerning this.

Training your girl - I think you will find this pretty useful within the context of your post.

Your value in a relationship

I also suggest reading Influence by Cialdini for certain behavioural cues to put out there for her to comply with. You can find a summary of it on this forum too.

[The Golden God]

(11-16-2018 09:58 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

I have been in two long-time LTR's before, one of 12 years and one of 17 years, in each one the girl was molded and changed. In the first one I was very young, fit and attractive, I was 18 and she was 27, so my SMV was somewhat above hers, she was by far more invested than I was. She changed a lot with me actually, I pushed her limits sexually to an extent where I found out we were actually not sexually compatible, she was still a virgin, I made clear that I expect her to do all the housework, she learned to cook, etc. It ended when she noticed that my aloofness, absolute refusal to marry, as well as running in a social circle of younger people meant she would not get what she wanted out of the relationship, especially in a material sense as I refused to marry. I came home one day and my house was half-emptied by her and her brothers as she'd loaded everything up on a truck and left to her home country, the Netherlands.

First of all, these are very long LTRs and I'm pretty confused with what kind of 27 year old woman was dating an 18 year old but I'll relent.

If you are in a relationship with a girl, she will appear to change and will agree to some of the restrictions you are placing on her as long as she's still attracted to you and drawing value from the relationship. However, these changes are fair-weathered and temporary.

As soon as the relationship ended , the "changes" you saw in them were gone the second they walked out the door.

You didn't change these girls at all.

(11-16-2018 09:58 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

Jealousy is an expected part of life, a girl expects a man to be jealous sometimes, just as we don't overthink when a girl gets jealous and dump her right away, a girl accepts that a man is jealous sometimes.

Yes, jealousy is normal, but because something is normal does not mean it is good. Jealousy is from feelings of inadequacy and the primal urge to protect what you're scared of losing.

(11-16-2018 09:58 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

I would rather have that, which passes, than have her communicating non-stop with a parade of thirsty orbiters and ex-boyfriends which merely creates opportunity and problems. It's precisely because I am experienced that I am concerned about such issues, and control what can be controlled. But you're right jealousy can be manipulated and has to be controlled of course.

Girls don't go out of their way to ask for attention from orbiters... and if she does then you don't need to be pursuing an LTR of any sort.

Attention seeking girls know the mechanics of jealousy and SMV VERY WELL and your jealous temper tantrums of making them delete friends/followers only lowers how she views you... and I can guarantee that.

[XXL]

What I meant was letting a girl know how to be good girl for you, conveying what you like and what you appreciate the most. Once that is set then sit back and observe. But those expectations have to be very clear.

What I've learnt is that a girl who really likes you wants you to like her. Wants to be validated so to speak. if it means dying her hair black that's fine she'll do it. The only way to get it from you you on a regular basis is to adjust to your preferences and tastes. Not 100% but enough that you feel happy.

Then it's a matter of validation. She will learn very fast that you pay much more attention to her when she wears that color of dress or does that thing this way. So it's a matter of apreciating her efforts or withdrawing attention when she slacks off.

[Noir]

@Jefferson, thank you for your kind words and the rep.

@XXL, nice to see you again.

Allow me to answer your questions directly.

Quote:

You mean if I had huge SMV, other bargaining power, she would just behave in exactly the way that I want in order to please me? The thing is she does not know exactly what I want, I have to teach her. But you're right of course, in a way, in an ideal relationship you would have to exert no control whatsoever because she would want to behave exactly as you want, to please you. But this is the real world, it's not going to happen out of itself most of the time.

Her behaviour is in direct correlation of what leverage you have and her understanding of this. You could be Casanova and it wouldn't matter if she doesn't see it. Thus arises the key point of figuring out where you bridge the gap in getting her to see it without telling her.

For this reason, I give merit to experience based rewards where you provide her an experience she cannot get anywhere else. With any product, service, anything, it has a unique selling point (USP) that keeps us coming back.

Girls rationalize this with 'he makes me feel special', 'he knows my buttons', 'he is my bedrock' etc etc.

Ask yourself, at 47, what do you provide (and I am sure plenty of things) to a younger woman that is something she wants. Then juxtapose this with any psychology or game theories which revolve around what women want.

There are variables that affect her treatment of you for you to consider.

a) stage of relationship - the honeymoon phase. Women are more eager to please during this period and the more you 'take', the higher the baseline for you to operate of. Think of it as possession (zero sum game) in a sport. If she comes in at 70% then you keep it at that level and expect it. Thereafter it's normalized and any deviations in behaviour are within standard deviations of this.

This is a shoddy analogy and I should work on it but I hope it gives you an idea.


b) The differences between both of you, concerning culture, age, personality.

For this reason, you find that social media and this low attention span behaviour pisses you off. Same here and I am 20 years younger than you dating a young girl (as per post above).

Dissect it and understand why this is. It's a stock market of external validation to assuage low self esteem. This goes back to the original self esteem point. You need to be a strong man (which I am sure you are) to be able to provide this and 'distract' in a way. You interfere with her wiring to show her the other side of life which is that it's got its highs and lows and not everything is a highlight reel. You make her understand the lows are necessary for the appreciation of the highs and that you are her rock against the tides of life. You are a team. Refer to my example of creating a team vibe and a bubble of love.

My problem was that I would get girls to fall in love with me because when I was with them, I would be there 110% and when I wasn't, they didn't exist. You can imagine this caused emotional rollercoasters and women would be vulnerable and doing pretty crazy shit by virtue of being in love and pining for that connection.
As per point (a), this is offering them something they can't get from vanilla chad.

I don't just push the sexual buttons in which they want to fuck. I push the emotional buttons in which they feel like they need me because I understand them, they want me because they reach their potentials around me. I aim to be their teacher, their guide, their best friend, their lover and in bed, their master. The bedroom is another post altogether and it's related to the triggers and cues I mentioned. This is how you get girls horny all the time and on the flipside why they message you when they're horny. Cause and effect.

edit: these are just two, there are plenty more, off the top of my head but I am late to meet a friend.

I will revert back to you but think about any others you consider fit this category.

Quote:

Do I understand this correctly, you act aloof and disinterested when everything is going well to keep her on her toes?

To me, everything is always going well. In my previous 3.5 year relationship, I can count the arguments on 1 hand. The emotional rollercoaster was there but never escalated and this is in part due to my persona being intimidating.

I act aloof and disinterested when things are well because most of the time, things are well and my aloofness and disinterest is due to lack of mental RAM to focus on her needs at the given time.

This will cause an emotional spike and some questions and then I bring her back - similar to old school push and pull.

The takeaway here is, when I act like this its because I am focusing on other things in my life, specifically what I deem more important such as career and family. Unfortunately, I have an intense life with family health issues (parents) and my career is transitioning so I live this principle instead of acting it; I don't have time for any shit sometimes and it reflects in my behaviour through withdrawal of my attention to her.

If I am waking up at 5am, exercising, working, running a social club, working on 2 business outside of work, maintaining an active network, staying in touch with close friends overseas, checking in on my family and trying to decompress, it's natural that my disinterest comes out sometimes because women are demanding at times, especially when they are in love with you.

The irony is that when you make sacrifices towards them, it has the opposite effect so you need to find the specific balance that works for you.

Thank you for these questions; some of the things I wrote here, I never properly thought about and this is partly why I come to the forum. I seldom post threads because I never organize my thoughts until someone asks a specific question.

[Jefferson]

(11-16-2018 11:00 AM)The Golden God Wrote:  

First of all, these are very long LTRs and I'm pretty confused with what kind of 27 year old woman was dating an 18 year old but I'll relent.

You and me both brother. And a virgin at 27 to boot. Anyway, she was a mistake.

(11-16-2018 11:00 AM)The Golden God Wrote:  

If you are in a relationship with a girl, she will appear to change and will agree to some of the restrictions you are placing on her as long as she's still attracted to you and drawing value from the relationship. However, these changes are fair-weathered and temporary.

As soon as the relationship ended , the "changes" you saw in them were gone the second they walked out the door.

You didn't change these girls at all.

It's of course possible, as I don't monitor exes and don't really give a fuck what they do. But if it were so it's irrelevant, they changed over many years while being with me, that is what mattered. What happens after is invisble and irrelevant really. Though I doubt they did not change at all. People change all the time really, though a core remains immutable, true.

(11-16-2018 11:00 AM)The Golden God Wrote:  

Girls don't go out of their way to ask for attention from orbiters... and if she does then you don't need to be pursuing an LTR of any sort.

That may be so, however, we now live in a Facebook age. The orbiters themselves only need to initiate contact, say like a pic, a conversation ensues. Of course in 99 percent of cases if the relationship is solid she'll not pursue it. However, what if you had an argument? I actually had this very situation. I brought the girl over to London, she was living with me. But she'd had had an orbiter who kept writing to her. So she replied. Secretly of course. Only told me like a year after. I'd rather minimise these incidents.

(11-16-2018 11:00 AM)The Golden God Wrote:  

Attention seeking girls know the mechanics of jealousy and SMV VERY WELL and your jealous temper tantrums of making them delete friends/followers only lowers how she views you... and I can guarantee that.

Possibly. But I bring enough to the table that I survived many, many of such hard fought battles before. And a lot of guys are now gone for good from the orbit. I like that and I think it's worth it for a temporary reduction in attraction, you know why, because attraction level can be RAISED again. If she starts a rapport with an orbiter, that can lead to disaster. I know because this is how my marriage ended when I was the one communicating with orbiters.

[Jefferson]

(11-16-2018 11:06 AM)XXL Wrote:  

What I meant was letting a girl know how to be good girl for you, conveying what you like and what you appreciate the most. Once that is set then sit back and observe. But those expectations have to be very clear.

What I've learnt is that a girl who really likes you wants you to like her. Wants to be validated so to speak. if it means dying her hair black that's fine she'll do it. The only way to get it from you you on a regular basis is to adjust to your preferences and tastes. Not 100% but enough that you feel happy.

Then it's a matter of validation. She will learn very fast that you pay much more attention to her when she wears that color of dress or does that thing this way. So it's a matter of apreciating her efforts or withdrawing attention when she slacks off.

I think you make a very important point. The carrot, validation, appreciation, should be used more than the stick and control. I think that is correct.

However, what do you do with actual issues, do you let the girl feel free at all times? Do you never have an issue in the past where something was entirely unacceptable to you, yet not enough to end the relationship? How did you deal with it?

[Jefferson]

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

@Jefferson, thank you for your kind words and the rep.

Highly deserved, Noir, that post displayed deep knowledge and was highly relevant to my situation. Very helpful.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

Her behaviour is in direct correlation of what leverage you have and her understanding of this. You could be Casanova and it wouldn't matter if she doesn't see it. Thus arises the key point of figuring out where you bridge the gap in getting her to see it without telling her. For this reason, I give merit to experience based rewards where you provide her an experience she cannot get anywhere else. With any product, service, anything, it has a unique selling point (USP) that keeps us coming back. Girls rationalize this with 'he makes me feel special', 'he knows my buttons', 'he is my bedrock' etc etc. Ask yourself, at 47, what do you provide (and I am sure plenty of things) to a younger woman that is something she wants. Then juxtapose this with any psychology or game theories which revolve around what women want.

Yes, she is 19 years younger than me, Noir, and believe me when I tell you, I have given this girl experiences that most women will not have in a lifetime, I took her to dinner and coffee at Savini's, got her to watch her first NBA game, I took her to her first opera performance, to her first musical performance, phantom of the opera, to some of the finest restaurants in the world, like Barrafina, Bocca di Lupo, I took her sailing in the Cayman Islands, dinner at Taikun in the Ritz Carlton, I pulled out all the stops. I even made the bad mistake of sending her a monthly allowance of like 1000 dollars, which she used to renovate her mothers house, I was the one to put wifi in her house, I paid 3000 dollars for her sister's operation. Bear in mind I have the face, not the body, and she is from a poor background. The only problem, she's had three other boyfriends who ALSO took her to five star resorts, bought her what she wanted, she's kind of expecting this treatment.

Has this helped me? Maybe, but I still experience her daily HPD issues, she is still friends with a homosexual who talks me down, she is still withdrawing compliance on a regular basis. Because she wants to lock me down for marriage. Which I see way down the road, if ever.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

For this reason, you find that social media and this low attention span behaviour pisses you off. Same here and I am 20 years younger than you dating a young girl (as per post above).

Fucking hell, I thought you must be at least 50 with the insights you have.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

Dissect it and understand why this is. It's a stock market of external validation to assuage low self esteem. This goes back to the original self esteem point. You need to be a strong man (which I am sure you are) to be able to provide this and 'distract' in a way. You interfere with her wiring to show her the other side of life which is that it's got its highs and lows and not everything is a highlight reel. You make her understand the lows are necessary for the appreciation of the highs and that you are her rock against the tides of life. You are a team. Refer to my example of creating a team vibe and a bubble of love.

I like this team vibe notion, which I tried to do in the past to some degree. But she's a very 'ME' girl, headstrong and sometimes I feel not so much a partner as a project. She expects highs all the time, and you're responsible to deliver them. She's just been conditioned this way by four men in a row.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

I don't just push the sexual buttons in which they want to fuck. I push the emotional buttons in which they feel like they need me because I understand them, they want me because they reach their potentials around me. I aim to be their teacher, their guide, their best friend, their lover and in bed, their master. The bedroom is another post altogether and it's related to the triggers and cues I mentioned. This is how you get girls horny all the time and on the flipside why they message you when they're horny. Cause and effect.

My girl also likes the teacher mode actually, I should use that more often, good point. I am lacking in the best friend department, too often it descends into the adversarial. Sexually everything is outstanding, there's no issues at all.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

edit: these are just two, there are plenty more, off the top of my head but I am late to meet a friend.

I will revert back to you but think about any others you consider fit this category.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this, your advice is really shockingly helpful.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

To me, everything is always going well. In my previous 3.5 year relationship, I can count the arguments on 1 hand. The emotional rollercoaster was there but never escalated and this is in part due to my persona being intimidating.

How does the intimidation manifest itself to her?

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

This will cause an emotional spike and some questions and then I bring her back - similar to old school push and pull.

This is my mistake. I am always super nice to her. That's a my mistake. I need to be less nice to her. But then you have to be the best friend too? Grrrrr

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

The irony is that when you make sacrifices towards them, it has the opposite effect so you need to find the specific balance that works for you.

I can tell you whatever sacrifice I made for her, and I made a LOT, it almost never had a good lasting result for me, only short term, it evaporated so quickly and is not appreciated at all anymore.

Again, thank you very much for taking the time to write such detailed diamond advice.

[jcardial]

(11-16-2018 11:55 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

@Jefferson, thank you for your kind words and the rep.

Highly deserved, Noir, that post displayed deep knowledge and was highly relevant to my situation. Very helpful.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

Her behaviour is in direct correlation of what leverage you have and her understanding of this. You could be Casanova and it wouldn't matter if she doesn't see it. Thus arises the key point of figuring out where you bridge the gap in getting her to see it without telling her. For this reason, I give merit to experience based rewards where you provide her an experience she cannot get anywhere else. With any product, service, anything, it has a unique selling point (USP) that keeps us coming back. Girls rationalize this with 'he makes me feel special', 'he knows my buttons', 'he is my bedrock' etc etc. Ask yourself, at 47, what do you provide (and I am sure plenty of things) to a younger woman that is something she wants. Then juxtapose this with any psychology or game theories which revolve around what women want.

Yes, she is 19 years younger than me, Noir, and believe me when I tell you, I have given this girl experiences that most women will not have in a lifetime, I took her to dinner and coffee at Savini's, got her to watch her first NBA game, I took her to her first opera performance, to her first musical performance, phantom of the opera, to some of the finest restaurants in the world, like Barrafina, Bocca di Lupo, I took her sailing in the Cayman Islands, dinner at Taikun in the Ritz Carlton, I pulled out all the stops. I even made the bad mistake of sending her a monthly allowance of like 1000 dollars, which she used to renovate her mothers house, I was the one to put wifi in her house, I paid 3000 dollars for her sister's operation. Bear in mind I have the face, not the body, and she is from a poor background. The only problem, she's had three other boyfriends who ALSO took her to five star resorts, bought her what she wanted, she's kind of expecting this treatment.

Has this helped me? Maybe, but I still experience her daily HPD issues, she is still friends with a homosexual who talks me down, she is still withdrawing compliance on a regular basis. Because she wants to lock me down for marriage. Which I see way down the road, if ever.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

For this reason, you find that social media and this low attention span behaviour pisses you off. Same here and I am 20 years younger than you dating a young girl (as per post above).

Fucking hell, I thought you must be at least 50 with the insights you have.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

Dissect it and understand why this is. It's a stock market of external validation to assuage low self esteem. This goes back to the original self esteem point. You need to be a strong man (which I am sure you are) to be able to provide this and 'distract' in a way. You interfere with her wiring to show her the other side of life which is that it's got its highs and lows and not everything is a highlight reel. You make her understand the lows are necessary for the appreciation of the highs and that you are her rock against the tides of life. You are a team. Refer to my example of creating a team vibe and a bubble of love.

I like this team vibe notion, which I tried to do in the past to some degree. But she's a very 'ME' girl, headstrong and sometimes I feel not so much a partner as a project. She expects highs all the time, and you're responsible to deliver them. She's just been conditioned this way by four men in a row.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

I don't just push the sexual buttons in which they want to fuck. I push the emotional buttons in which they feel like they need me because I understand them, they want me because they reach their potentials around me. I aim to be their teacher, their guide, their best friend, their lover and in bed, their master. The bedroom is another post altogether and it's related to the triggers and cues I mentioned. This is how you get girls horny all the time and on the flipside why they message you when they're horny. Cause and effect.

My girl also likes the teacher mode actually, I should use that more often, good point. I am lacking in the best friend department, too often it descends into the adversarial. Sexually everything is outstanding, there's no issues at all.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

edit: these are just two, there are plenty more, off the top of my head but I am late to meet a friend.

I will revert back to you but think about any others you consider fit this category.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this, your advice is really shockingly helpful.

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

To me, everything is always going well. In my previous 3.5 year relationship, I can count the arguments on 1 hand. The emotional rollercoaster was there but never escalated and this is in part due to my persona being intimidating.

How does the intimidation manifest itself to her?

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

This will cause an emotional spike and some questions and then I bring her back - similar to old school push and pull.

This is my mistake. I am always super nice to her. That's a my mistake. I need to be less nice to her. But then you have to be the best friend too? Grrrrr

(11-16-2018 11:14 AM)Noir Wrote:  

The irony is that when you make sacrifices towards them, it has the opposite effect so you need to find the specific balance that works for you.

I can tell you whatever sacrifice I made for her, and I made a LOT, it almost never had a good lasting result for me, only short term, it evaporated so quickly and is not appreciated at all anymore.

Again, thank you very much for taking the time to write such detailed diamond advice.

There's a line (and I get the impression you definitely crossed it) where you became too eager to please and she lost a lot of respect and attraction for you. If you're going the sugar daddy route you likely have to be very careful about how things are framed or it will start to feel like overcompensation and quickly smother the attraction. Paying an allowance outright probably had the opposite outcome than what you were hoping for. You have lost a lot of her compliance because you have created the perception (and reality) that you are massively more invested in this relationship than she is. Asking that she check in every thirty minutes or delete her exes from social media are also clear manifestations of your over investment. You've done a lot to convince her that she's dating down and that you are worried that you alone won't suffice to keep her interested and loyal.

The fact that her gratefulness is ephemeral or insincere is a salient red flag that she has lost respect and attraction. She likely complains to her gay friend in private about her loss of feelings for you and this is why he is parroting that she should "follow her heart" and leave you. I assure you that the average gay guy has zero moral qualms with dating older sugar daddies. Your overly controlling behavior gives her plenty of material to complain and ample opportunity for him to throw you under the bus, and maybe rightfully so.

I imagine you feel quite invested in this girl since you have spent so much on her, which makes pulling the eject lever a very difficult decision despite being the overtly correct one to an outside observer. You have seen her true colors once she gets comfortable. Between the excessive giving and the fairly over the top control requests you probably ended up establishing a very transactional and over invested dynamic where she feels more like an ungrateful employee than an attracted lover.

You're a 47 year old baller, not a washed up elderly geezer. You're not at the age where you have to outright buy a young girl's loyalty. There are plenty of resources on the forum about how to prudently run good provider game (it sounds like a paradox) if that's the way you want to approach things. I would also recommend working on your game in general. The over controlling, much like the over spending, is likely going to have the opposite of the intended effect. It's one thing to let her know if something annoys you, but ultimatums or bossy demands are just copious fuel for her to doubt your confidence and for her friends to flame you ad infinitum.

Cliff notes: Provider game can smother attraction if it isn't executed properly, especially if it feels like overcompensation or it's too transactional. There's a big difference between communicating your expectations and standards versus trying to micro manage her every move. The latter will antagonize both her and her friends, and they will turn against you.

[Jefferson]

Oh I crossed the line and lost sight of it. Paying an allowance was a gigantic mistake. I have made a lot of mistakes with this girl, maybe too many.

I will say though that she had very little respect to start with, she's naturally a disrespectful person, to her own family, and not only seeks confrontation avidly but also amplifies it with total committment in almost every instance. On the flipside, when I once nexted her briefly she started saying I was her salvation and her devotion took on quasi-religious overtones.

Though she does believe her SMV is sky high, due to her past, and admittedly superb legs, breasts and face, I don't think she thought she was dating down. Like I said, I have the face, I am a lawyer, I had substantial resources. However, total disclosure, I had a wife and two kids and kept that from her, so when that came out, obviously it lowered my SMV substantially. I think it had an effect on the relationship, and even me filing for divorce now has not really improved matters greatly.

This is what she brings up all the time when we have an argument, that I have baggage, two children, and she can't live it, she doesn't want that, that I always communicate with the ex wife. She really does not like that and struggles with it.

In terms of attraction, I was doing rather well until recently, I got a long love letter from her, and she did send me updates every 30 minutes, when I'd go to work she'd check the traffic for me online before I head out, things like this. I think her attraction was fine, but I then overplayed my hand in terms of demands, and it did cause stress, it's true. She has complained about me being controlling, which is not good.

I am fine with the investment I have made, I just genuinely like this girl. When she is in her feminine she is quite wonderful. It just only lasts about 4 days at a time, then a drama follows, make up, 4 days of lovely and again drama and on it goes.

The transactional dynamic is something I have tried to cut back on, but it is very difficult, as she has been raised this way and used to it from me. She makes overt demands now. Money, luxury gifts. I refuse and she withdraws affection.

I never saw it as 'buying' since I was raised on a man having to look after a girl in every way, but I definitely went overboard with it and made some mistakes.

[Vladimir Poontang]

You should treat a woman like a daughter.