[Dalaran1991]

(10-13-2017 10:24 AM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

While I love Lars Andersen, he's in the top 0.1% of archers.

I do agree longbow is more like artillery, and shortbow is infinitely more useful in close quarters. I just don't see archers carrying that many arrows with them to last the whole battle before just switching to their sword and hacking at the enemy with their ridiculous Quasimodo shoulder strength.

Which brings me to the next point: the top 0.1% of archers today, was probably only a good archer at the time, say the top 30%. The best fencer we have now probably wouldn't stand a snowball chance in hell against Fiore or any of his students. You have professional archers/foresters trained for this kind of thing living under a lord's payroll because keeping the forest in good condition was pretty big for lords who loved to hunt (read: most of them).

Mongols literally did learn how to ride and shoot a bow before they can run.

I dont think archers get into close combat. They wear almost no armor and we all know how fucked you are if you are unarmored AND without a shield. Remember we're talking about skirmishing, so after disrupting enemy with arrows archers retreat back behind the friendly melee line.

[The Man w/ the Golden Gun]

(10-13-2017 08:35 AM)MiscBrah Wrote:  

I’d throw another $100 on YoungBlade if anyone else wants to get in on this

My money is also on my boy YB. +$100

ODINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

[YoungBlade]

Ah, dalaran, always putting things in perspective! You're only a month into hema and thinking light-years ahead of me. If I could double rep you I would.

[Comte De St. Germain]

ODDDDDDDDDIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!


So where's our dark horse now? Where ya at son????

Odds are 3:1 in favor of YB.

[sterling_archer]

Jesus why did you start about archery? Now I must participate.

I was never keen on steppe horse archery. I don't like the shape of their bows LOL! But I must admit this type of combat changed everything. Shooting on horseback, at great speed, probably doing circle attacking (Rome Total War haha) and attacking and withdrawing are absolutely devastating on armies that didn't have such military training. That is the reasons steppe warriors were such menacing force.

Although I am familiar with archery around the world as I participate in discussions about this stuff, I am familiar most with our, Western archery and its equipment.
We had/have advantage of easily making our bows. I just go to the woods and pick suitable sapling or I split larger trunk into several pieces, I season them, shape them, tiller them and shoot them.
That is vastly easier and faster than doing steppe bows, which require sinew, horns, special types of wood and glue, etc. They also require good skills. There are not many bowyers today here in the West that do sort of bows.
Our bows have also advantages and disadvantages compared to steppe bows. Ours have slower cast, but can be really precise. They can cast heavier arrows than eastern counterparts, needed for penetrating plate armor, easier to build as I mentioned and cheaper to build. Wood is everywhere, especially in those old days where timber was of better quality (that is truth). Learning to shoot on foot while stationary is easier, etc.
Currently I am making my first English bow, it will not be warbow because its poundage will not exceed 110 pounds but it will be a heavy one.

Lars Andersen is not really considered big shot (lol) among archers. He uses low poundage bows and does tricks. There are people with far more skill shooting heavier bows and doing amazing things. They don't jump around though, and that jumping around is what I think made Andersen look more attractive on youtube than people such as Howard Hill. Look what Howard Hill did.
There are multiple ways of using the bow, chief among them being "instinctive" and "aiming". Aiming is what you see on Olympic games. There is a ring in the string and iron sight on bow handle. You align them and release the arrow. That is almost exactly the same as using rifle.
Instinctive is where wonders came from. That was probably the main way of all military archers and today is mandatory for those doing tricks.
You just look at the target and your brain subconsciously coordinates the bow and arrow to make you shoot the target. It is recommended that people pick smaller target as possible. Dot size of half an inch is better than golf ball sized target. Aim small miss small.
When archers shoot mid air aspirin pill and tennis ball they are looking at the point on these objects and that point is the same "diameter" on both targets. It doesn't matter how the object big is, most important is that you picture yourself a small dot to target.
I am also doing instinctive archery. It's simply more fun than aiming conventionally. That grandpa above is doing also that. He is good guy and I exchanged couple of words with him.
But, the best teacher of instinctive archery is in my opinion Grey Archer. Look up his channel if you want big 20+ min videos full of tips. Honestly, one day after a lot of misses and developing insecurity in my skills I watched couple of videos and next time I managed to get 2/3 of arrows placed near where I "aimed". That tells you how good he is a teacher. He is from Sweden but seems that of an old kind, you know fishing, hunting and nature and not rabid leftist.

[YoungBlade]

Spicing this thread up. A little NSFW

[url=https://twitter.com/oldpicsarchive/status/919689857789845504][/url]

[Dalaran1991]

That girl sure knows how to handle a BIG sword

Archer got all triggered at the notion of bows! Damn if only we can do a meetup shootout.

Other than that, there's a whole fundamental issue I never really found an answer for in HEMA:

Just what was the importance of sword back at the time, and how does it fare against other weapon.

Normal people / fanboy fags think swords were the default weapon of the time / weapons of mass destruction. Most history / sword amateur discards swords as a status weapon only, citing how inferior it is to the spear and polearm on the battlefield, and that's not taking into account the cost.

Almost all HEMA practitioner I know claim that spear vs sword is a clear win for the spear.

I find this belief a little bit unconvincing to say the least. Everyone agree that a sword is expensive, no doubt about it, and was reserved to the noble. However, it doesn't make any sense at all for a noble (whose fortune very often depends on his combat prowess) to adopt a weapon that is both expensive AND inferior to a peasant's spear.

The sword was like the Ferrari of the time. It costs more but it has to perform better, else there's no point for the rich to adopt it.

And the way two handed swords develop in the high middle ages, it was definitely an attempt to beat armor and also to counter other polearm / spear. So I dont subscribe to the belief that sword was secondary weapons mostly.

What do you guys think? What are the advantages of swords vs other weapons? Leaving aside the economic side of course.

[polar]

(10-15-2017 05:24 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

Spicing this thread up. A little NSFW

[url=https://twitter.com/oldpicsarchive/status/919689857789845504][/url]

WSI1/2ISWC

(Would Split In half if she were contemporary)

[sterling_archer]

On the same notion, EVERYBODY think that Samurai used katana in battle. While they were around the waist, Yari (spear) was practically main weapons of choice. Katana is symbol and weapon used for unarmored duels, although some Ukiyo-e depict armored Samurai with badly chipped katanas. Makes sense as they are not really durable in blade to blade contact.
Spear is cheap to make and easy to use when you couple dozens of men together with their spears pointed in same direction.

Usage of swords was and is greatly debated. General agreement is that for example one handed swords that were prevalent during medieval times were good cavalry weapons. If you look at these types of swords, their blades are actually pretty large, but handles are short. Momentum and tip heavy weapon, combined with horse is good choice for cutting down retreating foot soldiers. But again, lance is much better for using while on horseback, together with war hammers. On the foot its always more reasonable to kill your opponent as far from you as possible, so again, spear.

You are right regarding large two handed swords. Interestingly, some people compare them to polearms, because of way they were used. You can see in that montante videos that people like to hold them with left hand on hilt and with right one below crossguard. That is why they had parrying hooks. For warriors to have as much leverage as they can.

But for what they were used? You can see on page 3 of this thread picture I put where it depicts various kinds of large two handed swords. The one of the top has very interesting blade. Instead of tapering from hilt to tip, i.e. having acute profile taper, it tapers vice versa, from tip to the hilt. This type is also a bit thinner in cross section. With that weird tapering they wanted to get as much cutting surface as possible, while not getting excessively heavy blade. It is very easy to get too heavy sword. I made my first sword without good profile taper and when I put over sized wheel pommel, the result was 1945 grams. That is ridiculous to what sword of that size should have. It is about 120 cm and should weigh about 1300 grams. Large two handers were around 2 kg and they got that weight by making blades as narrow as possible.
I think these broad at the tip were made so they could make gaps in enemy lines. Doppelsoldners got double pay for doing that. I am not sure about flamberge bladed ones. They were probably either ceremonial in nature, experiment in design or they may have good cutting ability too. To me it seems like a saw that you swing around!? Not sure really.

Question: Is it true that they never made proper HEMA version of spear? I read recently that there were attempts but they either came out too hard (dangerous) or too soft which made them unsuitable for practice.

P.S.
Interestingly, Croatian language doesn't differentiate between types of spears. In English, lance describes large cavalry spear; pike, longer than usual spear; javelin, a throwing spear. We simply call everything spear. Weird as hell to me, because when I watch athletics (javelin throwing), it says "spear throwing". Spear is very hard to throw, so that is why I am triggered haha.

[YoungBlade]

Purple Heart armory has some spears for HEMA. I cannot attest to their effectiveness.



Spears typically win because they are easy to use and put distance between yourself and your opponent. However, unless you are a professional soldier who practically sleeps with his spear, you will be beaten by a knight with sword and shield, let alone montante. Why? Because the average spear-wielding peasant knows exactly two things: thrust and smack. He likely won’t realize that smacking away a blade with the pole is in fact blocking, and will do something stupid like lift the point out of the way to hold the shaft across his body, thinking it an effective block. That is all the opening a noble needs to step in, batter the peasant with his shield and then quickly strike with the sword.

Anyway, on montante vs spear. Spear has a slight advantage due to length, but a good swordsman can whoop ass if he has to. As seen here:

[sterling_archer]

And now imagine dozen Landsknecht wielding zweihander / montante and doing exactly what he is doing, although not jumping around like he does. Opening spots in enemy spear infantry before they get too close. And maybe someone using that opening for pushing another attack to disrupt them further. That is more probable reason than cutting off spear blades off the shafts.

[Dalaran1991]

(10-17-2017 01:09 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

And now imagine dozen Landsknecht wielding zweihander / montante and doing exactly what he is doing, although not jumping around like he does. Opening spots in enemy spear infantry before they get too close. And maybe someone using that opening for pushing another attack to disrupt them further. That is more probable reason than cutting off spear blades off the shafts.

That's how I imagine zweihanders wielding landsknetch were doing, using their swords to clear pike formation and forced entry for their allies.

Good vid YB, especially if the Montante guy was using armor then he doesnt give a shit about being poked with spear.

One disadvantage of spears and pike thrust is that they aren't that effective against armor. It's hard to get a precise thrust into weak point from a safe distance, unless you are willing to get close but then that negates the reach advantage.

I believe a good two-handed thrust can punch through mail, but again the swordman would have a shield. If the spearman also has a shield, he has less power for the thrust.

I think I got it all together: spears were awesome for mass combat. Swords were ok but used with armor it becomes a force multiplier. A few sword wielding knights in armor could easily slaughter a band of lightly armed peasant spearmen. Swords are more agile, can be used in close quarter, has faster extraction time, and cause more debilitating wounds. Thrust are more fatal but usually dont kill the opponents outright. In contrast having your tendon or your whole limbs slice off is pretty much game over.

If we imagine in the video the big sword guy is a noble wearing full plate and other spearmen are footsoldiers with nothing more than a gambeson then it's a massacre for the spearmen.

So sword is more like a tool for mass oppression used by heavily armored nobles. No wonder they were a status symbol.

[YoungBlade]

Taught today. Simple concepts like Absetzen, Durchwechsel, and Longpoint.

Some kids just didn't get it though, but eventually were working it out.

Shame some don't pick up on it naturally.

[Dalaran1991]

YB's becoming an old grumbler "kids these days just dont get it. Back in my days I cut my way out my mother womb with 3 perfectly executed oberhaus" like a dwarf longbeard

Best way is to show them 1 correct way to do it, then show them 3 incorrect way. Then let them do it to you and break it down. Remember, show, not tell. Encouragement, not chastisement.

Most of the movement required for swordmanship could be considered "unnatural" so I would go easy on the kid. Not all people are Dragonborn

I think the guys in this video have good pedagogy:

[YoungBlade]

(10-19-2017 04:54 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

YB's becoming an old grumbler "kids these days just dont get it. Back in my days I cut my way out my mother womb with 3 perfectly executed oberhaus" like a dwarf longbeard

Best way is to show them 1 correct way to do it, then show them 3 incorrect way. Then let them do it to you and break it down. Remember, show, not tell. Encouragement, not chastisement.

Most of the movement required for swordmanship could be considered "unnatural" so I would go easy on the kid. Not all people are Dragonborn

I think the guys in this video have good pedagogy:

It was unfortunate, but I did the exact opposite of that. Some choice quotes from yesterday evening.

“What the FUCK is that? Why are you winding to ochs? You’re the same height!”
“Why is your pflug in front of your balls? You want a pommel to be the reason you’re shooting blanks?”
“Why is your elbow all the way out there? You can’t hold a sword straight out in front of you?”

I have GOT to work on that...

[Dalaran1991]

I think I found a pic of YB in action:



After 4 years of learning Aikido and Salsa, I learned that the best teachers are not the best experts, and the best experts sometimes make horrible teachers.

I'm neither a noob nor a master but girls love to dance / train with me saying how I teach and explain better than the teacher himself. While in fact I'm just being nice cause they are cute / have big tits. They could do a horrible techniques and I would say: not bad. Curiously enough, they started to really get motivated and made a lot of progress.

That's when it really hit me that competence is overrated. Motivation and discipline is more important. Unfortunately you are not Gengis Khan or Richard the Lionhearted so you cant motivate people with fear. So you have to motivate by love.

This works for my LTR too. There's a time and place for negative reinforcement, but positive reinforcement must be preferred. Be the inspiring leader, not the feared tyrant.

Especially since HEMA still has a bad mainstream reputation, you dont want to be brutish jerk with sword. You want to be the fearsome but easy going viking.

[YoungBlade]

That’s a good point about the reputation of HEMA. I guess I take it more seriously than dance or history or language or anything else I teach because I know they’re gonna have to spar someday, and they’re gonna get hurt. I wanna minimize the damage they take by making sure they do it correctly. But you’re right, if I’m yelling at them, all that’s gonna do is induce panic whenever they try to remember their techniques and then they’ll get beaten into the ground.

Gotta spread the love:

[Dalaran1991]

I feel you man, I used to really look down on the people who joined aikido just because other sports were full. I either never trained with them or be quite harsh on their techniques, and that pushes them off even more. When I changed my attitude and replaces the stoicism with lots of jokes and laughter, it turns the dojo into a much better atmosphere. People come talk to me out of nowhere and become more motivated to come to training.

Remember: people go to sports / HEMA etc. FOR FUN. Nobody really goes there because they're trying crusade up and deus vult all the kebab next door. If you do nothing but yelling at them where's the fun in that?

One of the best way to create motivation is competition. Try organizing small games during training, i.e whoever throw the best oberhaus get one beer or whatever. The club should be like a viking meadhall, not a spartan barrack.

[YoungBlade]

You're absolutely right. Speaking of kebab, there's this one Arab kid who joined who I didn't think much of at the beginning of the semester: scrawny, quiet, and awkward. But he's really had his confidence boosted the more he's trained. I'm glad I didn't accidentally turn him away. If he gets stronger and faster he'll be quite the effective fencer. Hopefully he can translate that confidence into other areas. Like chasing pussy.

[YoungBlade]

Update: Sorry to all betters, but redbeard has backed out. Unwilling to fight. Scrammed. So keep your cash.

His new avatar:

[sterling_archer]

Interesting video to watch. Pay attention to mark around 3rd minute of video and tell me how far your jaw dropped.

[YoungBlade]

(10-19-2017 12:25 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Interesting video to watch. Pay attention to mark around 3rd minute of video and tell me how far your jaw dropped.

Well, now I don’t feel bad for being unable to afford armor.

[sterling_archer]

Btw, guy mentioned couple of times is Tobias Capwell. If you are ever interested in armor, how it really works, is made, look him up together with Ian Laspina and his youtube channel Knyght Errant.

[YoungBlade]

Did great in sparring today. Worst wound is a slightly scarred bruise on my shoulder. Leveraging my strengths and minimizing my weaknesses.

[sterling_archer]

Today is the anniversary of battle of Sekigahara (1600). So draw out your katanas, fire up Shogun 2 Total War and cut some machine barrels with glorious Nippon steel!