[AnonymousBosch]

(12-24-2017 05:00 PM)the1element Wrote:  

But I think trying to be a "sigma" or even self-describing yourself as one is idiotic.

I think you would get much more mileage out of being a genuine as possible to your character.

The point of the socio-sexual hierarchy isn't to 'perform' to type but to recognise traits of personality enough to be able to accurately-predict behaviour. If you can't do that, you've read them, (or yourself), wrong.

It was Christmas Day yesterday. A toxic Gamma I know that I've written about in the past abandoned his son to go walkabout up north before Christmas so I've moved him in with my girlfriend, Bill and I. He's a shy, quiet kid, and has the social-awkwardness of his generation but a decent soul, (Delta), considering his upbringing.

He seemed nervous knowing there'd be a few people around but I said "Between the personalities there, you'll be able to just float around without having to say much. Hell, just have some food and kick back."

I told Bill (Sigma) my Sister would be there. Cheeky grin: "I'll see if I can slip her the tongue under the holly." He always tries to bait me (Sigma) by telling me how 'hot' my sister is.

I said we also had my stepdad's mother, (I always called her the Spare Grandma), whom he'd never met. He looked wary, then spoke, and, even before he did I could predict what a Sigma's first concern would be.

Can you guess?

"Is she a bit of a snob?"

I told her she'd be fine with him.

So, Christmas Day comes. The Kid (Delta) is welcomed by everyone and he floated around the edges having one-on-one conversations with people as everyone recognised not to gang up on him at once.

My stepbrother (Alpha) parked himself in chair (his 'throne') to blotivate endlessly towards whomever entered his sphere whilst constantly-ordering my sister around, whom, of course dotes on him. (Grandma, to my sister, "Doesn't he have legs?") She doesn't care, because she's the Queen Bee to her Alpha so she bustled around in the kitchen and decorated the table.

My stepbrother (Alpha) has never understood me at all, and he strikes me (Sigma) as annoying and one-note as, say, Foghorn Leghorn, so we're polite to each other but we recognise we're the last people in the house we'd want to have a conversation with.

My stepfather (Gamma) thinks he's the Alpha, and, by Gamma Logic thinks the Alpha would be in the kitchen in charge of cooking for everyone. He constantly tried to get the attention and approval of the Alpha or the Sigma by talking across the room. Listen to me! Listen to me!

My stepfather (Gamma) kept making coy, danging references (Gamma) to having a mysterious female visitor (Gamma) yesterday. He'd do it in a way of sounding like he was inviting conversation but, if a thread was pulled (out of politeness) he would suddenly withhold further information. This is classic female 'bait and avoid' behaviour (Gammas think and behave as women) ie. a girl in the playground runs up to you and singsongs "I know someone likes you." When you take the bait and say "Who?" they then would say "It's a secret," or "I'm not allowed to tell." Or your girlfriend obviously-looking for comfort or attention, then, when you offer it, says to "Leave me alone."

Since he kept playing this game with all and sundry, I could piece together overheard bits from multiple conversations: she's a special friend that he shares [/i]long, personal[/i] talks with to help each other with their problems. i.e. she sees him as her girlfriend (Gamma) rather than a man. Which means, a Gamma repeatedly-spilling his emotional weaknesses to a woman automatically thinks this means they're being romantically-intimate together (Gamma).

I overheard the same girl-bait snippet about four times. "I've been naughty" or "I'm going to get into trouble". Eventually I heard the WHY as he told my sister that he bought this woman a $400 GPS System for her new car (Gamma). I guarantee he thinks that she, of course, will obviously-reward him with sex (Gamma).

Later on, I'm out on the verandah with Spare Grandma having a coffee, and she mentioned that this woman came and her and my Stepdad shared their problems, and she told Grandma when my Stepdad was in the other room making coffee that he was 'a Good Listener' (Gamma) and that she can't talk about things with her partner because he's not much of a talker. (Gamma Gamma Gamma!)

Bill (Sigma) turned up mid-morning. He briefly-talked to my Stepdad, since he already knows him, then spent some time baiting my sister, who can give as good as she gets, until she had to get the deserts made. All through this my Stepdad (Gamma) was trying to regain his attention. He talked very briefly with my Stepbrother, but, like me, was almost instantly-bored by the Alpha, so he went outside to observe The Kid trying to put together one of my nephew's toys. (Sigmas observe and survey in silence where the Alpha would constantly-tell the Kid what do do).

Then Grandma came out of the bathroom, and I was interested to watch what was about to happen, so prepared coffee for both of them as I saw her her spot him outside (someone new to question - knowledge is power!) and took her out and introduced them.

She sat down next to him, and it was on. She was seeking information and he was constantly-prodding and teasing her, testing her boundaries (Sigma), but she's from a generation of women who knew how to banter with a man. The conversation was as thick and as fast as a screwball comedy, and I kept seeing the Kid grin at me as he overheard it all because it was bloody hilarious. It really struck me what has been lost between young men and women now.

I kept drifting between people, helping get lunch prepared, but popped back out every so often to see if they wanted more coffee. Of course, with her having given back just as good as she got, he upped the ante, because Sigma wants to push the limits to see if people accept them, warts and all.

He looked at me, with a smirk in his eyes, and said "I think I should have a farkin' beer." He wanted me to know he was baiting her, and waited for comment.

"It's warm enough," she said. Our family doesn't really swear.

"I think I farkin' will then."

Instantly, she impersonated him. "Then I think I should have a farkin' beer too." Trying to poke him back.

He nodded. "Let's farkin' do it then." (Escalation).

"I'm farkin' ready." She looked at me. "Beer us, Son."

Meanwhile, the Kid was sitting on the ground laughing with his mouth open.

They went at it all day. It was hilarious. He couldn't stop baiting her, but when it got to the stage of her showing him the sunburn on the top of her tits, I could even see him think maybe he'd met his match here.

Later that night, Bill said to me. "You know, your Grandma's good value." Translated to Sigma: "She didn't act like she thought she was better than me."

The Kid wanted to know if we were going to all do it again next year.

---

We ate Seafood for Lunch. Bill had been with me on the 23rd when I talked about cooking Tempura for everyone with my Stepdad. I said we should take a drive around town and see if any Seafood Trucks are up from the coast, selling the morning's catches.

My stepdad immediately became the expert (Gamma) and said it would be too pricey and you might as well go down to the supermarket because it would all be frozen anyway.

Later, the three of us were on the way back from The Kid's with the last of what little furniture he had, and I spotted a truck parked near the local pub, so pulled in.

I bought about $100 worth of Green Prawns, Tasmanian Scallops and Calamari to feed everyone there and then. It was cheap and the quality looked incredible.

Eating dinner, everyone was raving about the quality. Admittedly, it was some of the best seafood I've ever eaten. My stepfather suddenly knew all, and reminded everyone again and again how "we could have gone to a supermarket but I thought the seafood trucks might have better stuff" which later became "I knew the seafood trucks would have better stuff," which later still became "The seafood trucks always have better stuff," implying that it has always been his choice due to his vast experience of buying superior quality seafood because his refined sensibilities would never accept anything but the best.

Remember how I said Gammas rewrite their reality on the fly and you can often catch them changing their story mid-sentence?

Also on the way home, Bill shot me a sly look. "Did you notice how buying the seafood was all his idea? And that it was all his idea to buy the seafood? And that we wouldn't have had such great seafood if it wasn't all his idea. You know it was all his idea, don't you mate?"

Bill mightn't know the term Gamma, but he's already-knows how it acts.

---------

Once again, if people sneer at this stuff and don't want the social advantages of being able to read people accurately, it's their loss.

[h3ltrsk3ltr]

Are the different personality types dependent somewhat on the social group?

Can you be a borderline or state-dependent alpha or gamma?

Is this partially derived from Brave New World?

[Suits]

(12-25-2017 07:27 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 05:00 PM)the1element Wrote:  

But I think trying to be a "sigma" or even self-describing yourself as one is idiotic.

I think you would get much more mileage out of being a genuine as possible to your character.

The point of the socio-sexual hierarchy isn't to 'perform' to type but to recognise traits of personality enough to be able to accurately-predict behaviour. If you can't do that, you've read them, (or yourself), wrong.

It was Christmas Day yesterday. A toxic Gamma I know that I've written about in the past abandoned his son to go walkabout up north before Christmas so I've moved him in with my girlfriend, Bill and I. He's a shy, quiet kid, and has the social-awkwardness of his generation but a decent soul, (Delta), considering his upbringing.

He seemed nervous knowing there'd be a few people around but I said "Between the personalities there, you'll be able to just float around without having to say much. Hell, just have some food and kick back."

I told Bill (Sigma) my Sister would be there. Cheeky grin: "I'll see if I can slip her the tongue under the holly." He always tries to bait me (Sigma) by telling me how 'hot' my sister is.

I said we also had my stepdad's mother, (I always called her the Spare Grandma), whom he'd never met. He looked wary, then spoke, and, even before he did I could predict what a Sigma's first concern would be.

Can you guess?

"Is she a bit of a snob?"

I told her she'd be fine with him.

So, Christmas Day comes. The Kid (Delta) is welcomed by everyone and he floated around the edges having one-on-one conversations with people as everyone recognised not to gang up on him at once.

My stepbrother (Alpha) parked himself in chair (his 'throne') to blotivate endlessly towards whomever entered his sphere whilst constantly-ordering my sister around, whom, of course dotes on him. (Grandma, to my sister, "Doesn't he have legs?") She doesn't care, because she's the Queen Bee to her Alpha so she bustled around in the kitchen and decorated the table.

My stepbrother (Alpha) has never understood me at all, and he strikes me (Sigma) as annoying and one-note as, say, Foghorn Leghorn, so we're polite to each other but we recognise we're the last people in the house we'd want to have a conversation with.

My stepfather (Gamma) thinks he's the Alpha, and, by Gamma Logic thinks the Alpha would be in the kitchen in charge of cooking for everyone. He constantly tried to get the attention and approval of the Alpha or the Sigma by talking across the room. Listen to me! Listen to me!

My stepfather (Gamma) kept making coy, danging references (Gamma) to having a mysterious female visitor (Gamma) yesterday. He'd do it in a way of sounding like he was inviting conversation but, if a thread was pulled (out of politeness) he would suddenly withhold further information. This is classic female 'bait and avoid' behaviour (Gammas think and behave as women) ie. a girl in the playground runs up to you and singsongs "I know someone likes you." When you take the bait and say "Who?" they then would say "It's a secret," or "I'm not allowed to tell." Or your girlfriend obviously-looking for comfort or attention, then, when you offer it, says to "Leave me alone."

Since he kept playing this game with all and sundry, I could piece together overheard bits from multiple conversations: she's a special friend that he shares [/i]long, personal[/i] talks with to help each other with their problems. i.e. she sees him as her girlfriend (Gamma) rather than a man. Which means, a Gamma repeatedly-spilling his emotional weaknesses to a woman automatically thinks this means they're being romantically-intimate together (Gamma).

I overheard the same girl-bait snippet about four times. "I've been naughty" or "I'm going to get into trouble". Eventually I heard the WHY as he told my sister that he bought this woman a $400 GPS System for her new car (Gamma). I guarantee he thinks that she, of course, will obviously-reward him with sex (Gamma).

Later on, I'm out on the verandah with Spare Grandma having a coffee, and she mentioned that this woman came and her and my Stepdad shared their problems, and she told Grandma when my Stepdad was in the other room making coffee that he was 'a Good Listener' (Gamma) and that she can't talk about things with her partner because he's not much of a talker. (Gamma Gamma Gamma!)

Bill (Sigma) turned up mid-morning. He briefly-talked to my Stepdad, since he already knows him, then spent some time baiting my sister, who can give as good as she gets, until she had to get the deserts made. All through this my Stepdad (Gamma) was trying to regain his attention. He talked very briefly with my Stepbrother, but, like me, was almost instantly-bored by the Alpha, so he went outside to observe The Kid trying to put together one of my nephew's toys. (Sigmas observe and survey in silence where the Alpha would constantly-tell the Kid what do do).

Then Grandma came out of the bathroom, and I was interested to watch what was about to happen, so prepared coffee for both of them as I saw her her spot him outside (someone new to question - knowledge is power!) and took her out and introduced them.

She sat down next to him, and it was on. She was seeking information and he was constantly-prodding and teasing her, testing her boundaries (Sigma), but she's from a generation of women who knew how to banter with a man. The conversation was as thick and as fast as a screwball comedy, and I kept seeing the Kid grin at me as he overheard it all because it was bloody hilarious. It really struck me what has been lost between young men and women now.

I kept drifting between people, helping get lunch prepared, but popped back out every so often to see if they wanted more coffee. Of course, with her having given back just as good as she got, he upped the ante, because Sigma wants to push the limits to see if people accept them, warts and all.

He looked at me, with a smirk in his eyes, and said "I think I should have a farkin' beer." He wanted me to know he was baiting her, and waited for comment.

"It's warm enough," she said. Our family doesn't really swear.

"I think I farkin' will then."

Instantly, she impersonated him. "Then I think I should have a farkin' beer too." Trying to poke him back.

He nodded. "Let's farkin' do it then." (Escalation).

"I'm farkin' ready." She looked at me. "Beer us, Son."

Meanwhile, the Kid was sitting on the ground laughing with his mouth open.

They went at it all day. It was hilarious. He couldn't stop baiting her, but when it got to the stage of her showing him the sunburn on the top of her tits, I could even see him think maybe he'd met his match here.

Later that night, Bill said to me. "You know, your Grandma's good value." Translated to Sigma: "She didn't act like she thought she was better than me."

The Kid wanted to know if we were going to all do it again next year.

---

We ate Seafood for Lunch. Bill had been with me on the 23rd when I talked about cooking Tempura for everyone with my Stepdad. I said we should take a drive around town and see if any Seafood Trucks are up from the coast, selling the morning's catches.

My stepdad immediately became the expert (Gamma) and said it would be too pricey and you might as well go down to the supermarket because it would all be frozen anyway.

Later, the three of us were on the way back from The Kid's with the last of what little furniture he had, and I spotted a truck parked near the local pub, so pulled in.

I bought about $100 worth of Green Prawns, Tasmanian Scallops and Calamari to feed everyone there and then. It was cheap and the quality looked incredible.

Eating dinner, everyone was raving about the quality. Admittedly, it was some of the best seafood I've ever eaten. My stepfather suddenly knew all, and reminded everyone again and again how "we could have gone to a supermarket but I thought the seafood trucks might have better stuff" which later became "I knew the seafood trucks would have better stuff," which later still became "The seafood trucks always have better stuff," implying that it has always been his choice due to his vast experience of buying superior quality seafood because his refined sensibilities would never accept anything but the best.

Remember how I said Gammas rewrite their reality on the fly and you can often catch them changing their story mid-sentence?

Also on the way home, Bill shot me a sly look. "Did you notice how buying the seafood was all his idea? And that it was all his idea to buy the seafood? And that we wouldn't have had such great seafood if it wasn't all his idea. You know it was all his idea, don't you mate?"

Doesn't your family have any betas?

[AnonymousBosch]

(12-25-2017 08:12 PM)Suits Wrote:  

Doesn't your family have any betas?

They'd be in the extended family for sure, but since my family was broken by divorce in the early 80's it's only a small gathering on my side. I've got 6 uncles and Aunts and 16 cousins on my Dad's side, and I haven't physically-seen any of them for about 40 years. I didn't see Dad (a hell of an Alpha) for decades. He just fathered a new son a few months ago with a wife younger than my sister, and his new families over the years have always been kept very separate from us and I've had no social interactions with any of them until that recent birth, but I don't see us getting together regularly.

I just noticed another pattern.

Through repeated observations, I've suspected Gamma comes from a boy having a dominant mother with an absent or henpecked father. When I recently read John Scalzi was abandoned by his father as a child, I laughed.

But, considering something Bill said to me about being disowned and disinherited by his father in youth recently, could it be possible that constant conflict with and rejection by an Alpha Father is the Sigma trigger? Is this why social status games are a constant irritant to the Sigma, as well as the intense personality clash with other Alphas? Is it just a male form of 'Fuck you [Authority Figure that represents] Dad?'

The Gamma Guy who abandoned The Kid was left on a doorstep when he was a baby and there was no way to ever find his birth parents. (Note that the cycle of parental abandonment is being repeated). His adoptive parents were, once again, a strong mother / weak father combo.

The Sigma friend I had who died a couple of years back lost his mother when he was 11, and his father pretty much tore him down constantly; would strike him hard enough to hit the wall when he was angry; and, when he died suddenly when he was 15; left the money and the house to his brother with the specification that his son gets nothing.

Even me. I was going out of my way to fuck myself up as a teenager, to get into as much trouble as I could, perhaps thinking Dad would care enough to see I was in trouble and come and save me. After a few months, you lose hope. After a few years, the hope turns to contempt which gradually turns to acceptance. After a few decades, there's simply no emotional bond left.

Food for thought.

[nomadbrah]

Wouldn't sigma be more likely with conflict with a gamma father (biological or otherwise). Alphas strike me as being good with children even if absent. Gammas on the other hand see the kid as competing with their need for narcissistic validation.

The Father is the supreme authority in any boy's life, but when Father is a gamma, authority is always self serving only and always full of shit. If Father is an alpha, authority feels justified, boy is brought up as "little man of the house", basically second in command. Gammas don't do that shit, they see everyone as a narcissistic threat to their fragile ego, including their children.

I guess when you're a kid, any kind of authoritarian father seems alpha, but when you become an adult you can tell who is an authoritarian out of weakness and who is from strenght.

[AnonymousBosch]

(12-25-2017 10:27 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Wouldn't sigma be more likely with conflict with a gamma father (biological or otherwise). Alphas strike me as being good with children even if absent.

My feeling is that Alpha Dad's are responsible for restrictions and punishment in a way that the Mother's in those families aren't. His presence is often used as a threat: "Just wait until your Father gets home." The child learns he has to bend to the Father's will.

Skip back to my earlier message when I'm talking about Christmas where The Kid was putting together a toy for my nephew. The Alpha would be dictating that the job be done his way, the Sigma sits back and observes. Yesterday, my Brother-In-Law constantly told my nephew what he could and couldn't do. "Pick up that wrapping paper." "No you can't play with that now." "You don't play with that unless Daddy's around." My Sister: "Ask your Father if it's OK".

Alpha Dad's can be caring, sure, but they can also be aloof and in their own worlds a lot of time and their comfort simply comes ahead of the kid. Where does the expression 'The Lion's Share' comes from? When I was little, Dad used to leave me in the work truck with the radio playing whilst he'd go in to visit female friends for a couple of hours. When I hear a song like 'I Was Made For Loving You Baby', or 'Fernando' even today, my only association is the knowledge that my father was probably getting his nut away when I first heard them. (1)

Remember the girl asks the Alpha: "What are you thinking about?" meaning "Are you thinking about me?" If Alpha Men weren't somewhat emotionally-detached, women wouldn't try so hard to 'snare' them and prove their value to him ("I'm worth your attention").

The Sigma Child? I think he understands the Alpha Dad's Love isn't Unconditional, and it can be withdrawn at any moment. Does the resentment form around the act of judgment itself? Is rejection taken as evidence to the Sigma child that they're not worthy of love, and, with that, comes some level of deliberate emotional distance from other people (as a form of self-protection). Of course, as we know, detachment generates female interest, so this might explain why Sigmas are so good around women.

Huh, I wrote a song a couple of years ago that came from somewhere deep inside me, but it's only now it makes sense to me. Interesting.

---

(1) No, wait. I remember a cute girl in my 1st Grade Class who used to sing "There was something in the air that night. Eggs on you, Fernando" whilst waving her hand under her nose. It was probably when I was first started to understand that cuteness negates stupidity when it comes to women.

[AnonymousBosch]

^

Further on that, I remember my Sister setting fire to the Kitchen after school when were children, since our parents didn't get home until after 5 and we were unsupervised. (Standard parenting of Gen X by Boomers).

After I got the fire out, she ended up lying on the floor, bawling her eyes out, heaving out syllables between sobs.

"Dad's... going... to... kill... me."

I hugged her and told her "We need to ring them. It'll be OK."

Meanwhile, I was thinking "You are SO fucked."

That's the relationship I remember with an Alpha Dad. There was no mercy to be had when you fucked up, particularly as I grew up in an era where parents could (and did) legally hit you.

----

Another memory. A few of us were sleeping over at a mate's farm and we'd been tasked with lighting the bonfire as dusk hit as the older folks were off elsewhere.

My friend discovered that if you tossed swung the Diesel cannister into the air towards the fire, it would ignite an exploding arc of flame that was damn spectacular.

His very, very Alpha Dad caught him doing it, and clipped him right around the ear. How did he respond? "I'm angry because you could blow your arm off."

Fuck no. He said: "You stupid bastard. Don't you know that Dieseline is 20 Cents a Litre?"

[the1element]

How does knowing about Gamma, Sigma, Beta etc help in social situations? How do you use it to your advantage?

(I'm not being sarcastic, genuinely interested)

[The Catalyst]

(12-26-2017 12:35 AM)the1element Wrote:  

How does knowing about Gamma, Sigma, Beta etc help in social situations? How do you use it to your advantage?

(I'm not being sarcastic, genuinely interested)

The short answer is you're able to make strong and reliable predictions for behavior. Then you can adjust accordingly.

[AnonymousBosch]

(12-26-2017 12:35 AM)the1element Wrote:  

How does knowing about Gamma, Sigma, Beta etc help in social situations? How do you use it to your advantage?

(I'm not being sarcastic, genuinely interested)

You might be tempted to work with a Gamma on a project, (a mistake Aurini and I both made), or to feel sorry for them and try to teach them Game (something I've done multiple times), or be forced to tolerate their prescence in a workplace. If you wound their unrealistic perception of themselves, they will destroy themselves as long as you're destroyed in the process. They are that destructive. Aurini lost thousands of dollars and public trust. I lost five years of hard, solid work: some of the best work I've ever done.

Both Aurini and I would say the same thing: their reactions were completely irrational and overdramatic. Why would someone burn everything to the ground for no logical reason?

With Sigma, it's understanding how to not get on their bad side, and how association with them might get you into more conflict that you're prepared for. A previous line of work involved counselling the type of people who were prone to Sigma acting out, and the only way to reach them effectively would be exactly how my Grandma handled Bill yesterday: giving it back just as well as they give it so they respect you. Otherwise, to them you're a just a jumped-up wanker who thinks you're far better than them, so why the fuck should they listen to a prick like you?

Say you're given project management on a task. You can be assured your Deltas are going to do the Grunt Work effectively without complaint and won't need a lot of micro-management. If you're saddled with a gamma, you can wall them off in an area of the project sphere where they aren't given power over anyone else: "I need you to work on this personally, it's far too important to trust to anyone else." Especially to keep them away from women. The vital tasks of the importance the Gamma thinks he's doing, are actually-handed off to the Betas, your effective seconds-in-command. Your Sigma is out working on a building site the fuck away from bullshit office politics.

Look at my Stepdad with the Seafood. I could point out that it was actually my idea, but who the fucks cares, because I'm too busy enjoying the food, and who would want anyone to care? But the Gamma needs to feel like the Alpha and be the Hero in any situation. Pointing it out would only cause resentment. As my sister says when this sort of thing happens, "There's what actually happened, and what he thinks happened. No-one is listening anyway. Let him have it."

Oh, especially with Gamma: women instinctively HATE them. Girls can sniff them out a mile away. You don't want a Gamma in your crew.

Does that help?

Game doesn't stop at picking up women.

[the1element]

(12-26-2017 02:03 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(12-26-2017 12:35 AM)the1element Wrote:  

How does knowing about Gamma, Sigma, Beta etc help in social situations? How do you use it to your advantage?

(I'm not being sarcastic, genuinely interested)

You might be tempted to work with a Gamma on a project, (a mistake Aurini and I both made), or to feel sorry for them and try to teach them Game (something I've done multiple times), or be forced to tolerate their prescence in a workplace. If you wound their unrealistic perception of themselves, they will destroy themselves as long as you're destroyed in the process. They are that destructive. Aurini lost thousands of dollars and public trust. I lost five years of hard, solid work: some of the best work I've ever done.

Both Aurini and I would say the same thing: their reactions were completely irrational and overdramatic. Why would someone burn everything to the ground for no logical reason?

With Sigma, it's understanding how to not get on their bad side, and how association with them might get you into more conflict that you're prepared for. A previous line of work involved counselling the type of people who were prone to Sigma acting out, and the only way to reach them effectively would be exactly how my Grandma handled Bill yesterday: giving it back just as well as they give it so they respect you. Otherwise, to them you're a just a jumped-up wanker who thinks you're far better than them, so why the fuck should they listen to a prick like you?

Say you're given project management on a task. You can be assured your Deltas are going to do the Grunt Work effectively without complaint and won't need a lot of micro-management. If you're saddled with a gamma, you can wall them off in an area of the project sphere where they aren't given power over anyone else: "I need you to work on this personally, it's far too important to trust to anyone else." Especially to keep them away from women. The vital tasks of the importance the Gamma thinks he's doing, are actually-handed off to the Betas, your effective seconds-in-command. Your Sigma is out working on a building site the fuck away from bullshit office politics.

Look at my Stepdad with the Seafood. I could point out that it was actually my idea, but who the fucks cares, because I'm too busy enjoying the food, and who would want anyone to care? But the Gamma needs to feel like the Alpha and be the Hero in any situation. Pointing it out would only cause resentment. As my sister says when this sort of thing happens, "There's what actually happened, and what he thinks happened. No-one is listening anyway. Let him have it."

Oh, especially with Gamma: women instinctively HATE them. Girls can sniff them out a mile away. You don't want a Gamma in your crew.

Does that help?

Game doesn't stop at picking up women.

is it really that black and white though?

You talk about a "Gamma" which fits my dad pretty well but he's also good with women. Women like him. (I know I'm doing a bit of nitpicking here)

Interestingly, I've used some of these concepts in my own relationships just without really thinking too much about it.

[Comte De St. Germain]

Gammas are parasites. Look for the guy who is there in a room because he latched onto someone and rode their coattails to the top. The kind of guy that feels completely off and not welcome by anyone in the room except that one guy whom they flatter 24/7.

If you ever have that completely repugnant feeling towards someone for no apparent reason that's a gamma right there.

It's the feeling I get when I see Ted Cruz or Dick Cheney on my computer or phone screen(or the vast majority of Democrat politicians).

Avoid them like the festering abscess they are.

[The Catalyst]

How would you deal with Alphas?

[AnonymousBosch]

Quote:

You talk about a "Gamma" which fits my dad pretty well but he's also good with women. Women like him. (I know I'm doing a bit of nitpicking here)

Two possibilities: he's not Gamma. Not every fisked forum response is evidence of Gamma. Sometimes people are just socially-awkward. It's about being able to predict his behaviour before it happens repeatedly that will clue you in. If he does some of these things only some of the time, then he's not a True Gamma.

The other possibility: Gammas do OK with one particular subset of women. Dominating, controlling, masculine women, older than them, who resemble the mothers who shaped them into Gammas. Basically, they're mother-fuckers, which means their mothers and their wives both fight each other for control of the boy.

Once again though, not every mother-fucker is a Gamma. It's observing patterns that generate predictability. The more of it you've seen, the easier it is to call it earlier in a relationship with someone.

I'm an INTJ: pattern recognition is just more obvious for me than for other personality types. For example, Bill asked me to do something involving a machine for him tonight that normally takes people five times longer to do it than it took me. He couldn't believe I had finished, even when I explained how it was a repetitive task, so it was easy to identify the most likely causes of problems and refine the process to avoid them arising.

Short version: I showed him how to do what he does, much faster.

"It's bloody unreal..." he said, "...how you notice shit all the time."

"You know when we were having dinner tonight? And [Stepdad] said how since there was only three of us he could cook the seafood faster by putting six pieces in at a time?"

"Yeah. I was thinking 'Less Talk, More Cook'."

"Misdirection. It was seven pieces each time. He'd make a show out of politeness by giving us our two pieces first. He obviously thought we'd be distracted salting and saucing them, so, each time he'd quietly sneak his three pieces out of the fryer. Over dinner he ate eight more pieces than we did."

Bill's mouth dropped open and he shook his head. "And you paid for it. Fat boy loves his food."

"It just makes me chuckle thinking he thought he got away with it."

"Like I said, you notice shit."

(12-26-2017 02:52 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:  

How would you deal with Alphas?

Your boss? The one who actually thinks moving up the corporate ladder means shit and accumulating more shiny, pretty objects of conspicuous consumption than everyone else actually matters?

Who the fuck cares? Their concerns are painfully-limited in scope, their conversations are boring and repetitive, their motivations are always predictable and their machinations are obvious.

^ That's my Sigma response.

If you're Alpha? You either AMOG him or he AMOG's you, where you fall in line as his entourage or vice versa. Thats a world of boring glad-handing, golf games, business lunches, WAGS, BBQs, and having to listen to his stories and jokes. Whilst I can do it for social and work purposes and have 'alpha' friends, they get Compartmentalized Bosch, where there's no point revealing my greater complexity to them. Better they think I'm an Alpha like them, since I taught myself to temper my Sigma instincts. I'm often mentally working on other things in my head as they talk.

I limit my expectations of friendship with them, and those friendships are effective enough for what they are: sports, alcohol, the sex that they just had, the sex that they want, cash, tits, status objects, creature comforts, weekend big boy toys and pussy.

If you can operate on that level, (even if, like me, you're faking it), you shouldn't have any problems.

[astro]

The Sigma strives for self-efficiency. It's a survival mechanism. I bet most of those dudes who go off to live in the wilderness are Sigma, not crazy. They are just on the extreme end of the spectrum of Sigma: they don't need to rely on anyone, aren't pressured by society, and do what they want. It's a control thing. Alpha needs the group to survive.

[Nonpareil]

At what age in (male) kids does it go from 'he's just a kid' to gamma behavior? I'm seeing some behaviors that are worrisome, but it could just be a part of the process.

[Comte De St. Germain]

(12-26-2017 11:34 AM)Nonpareil Wrote:  

At what age in (male) kids does it go from 'he's just a kid' to gamma behavior? I'm seeing some behaviors that are worrisome, but it could just be a part of the process.

10-11ish I'd say. My youngest brother is about that age and he's generally well mannered(if not only very rarely completely annoying but that's because he's still a kid) and most of his bad behaviors other than his love of spouting random facts at random moments have pretty much been washed out.

[debeguiled]

(12-25-2017 07:27 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

Eating dinner, everyone was raving about the quality. Admittedly, it was some of the best seafood I've ever eaten. My stepfather suddenly knew all, and reminded everyone again and again how "we could have gone to a supermarket but I thought the seafood trucks might have better stuff" which later became "I knew the seafood trucks would have better stuff," which later still became "The seafood trucks always have better stuff," implying that it has always been his choice due to his vast experience of buying superior quality seafood because his refined sensibilities would never accept anything but the best.

Remember how I said Gammas rewrite their reality on the fly and you can often catch them changing their story mid-sentence?

I haven't analyzed this to the depth you have.

I have a few tells I rely on.

The quoted part lines up with one of my gamma tells.

In conversation, if you are right and they are wrong, they wait a while and restate what you said earlier as if they are instructing you.



This one is my go-to gamma tell:

Quote:

You might be tempted to work with a Gamma on a project, (a mistake Aurini and I both made), or to feel sorry for them and try to teach them Game (something I've done multiple times), or be forced to tolerate their prescence in a workplace. If you wound their unrealistic perception of themselves, they will destroy themselves as long as you're destroyed in the process. They are that destructive. Aurini lost thousands of dollars and public trust. I lost five years of hard, solid work: some of the best work I've ever done.

You get involved with them only because you feel sorry for them, and only continue until you realize they feel superior to you.

It is nearly axiomatic that any man you feel sorry for actually feels superior to you and has no idea that it is obvious he has problems. You are acting on the assumption that it is obvious *even to him* that he has problems and needs help.

And it isn't

That is the formula for me. Feeling sorry for another man coupled with an inner need to help him is the warning sign. Hang back.

Observe first, and resist all impulses to offer help or advice. Wait till the feeling passes.

Later down the line you can decide whether or not it is a nightmare you are about to invoke.

[The Catalyst]

(12-26-2017 08:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

I'm an INTJ: pattern recognition is just more obvious for me than for other personality types. For example, Bill asked me to do something involving a machine for him tonight that normally takes people five times longer to do it than it took me. He couldn't believe I had finished, even when I explained how it was a repetitive task, so it was easy to identify the most likely causes of problems and refine the process to avoid them arising.

I'm INTJ as well as Sigma. Is it possible the two are related and/or highly correlated?

[britchard]

I've been thinking about my own experiences in observing the socio-sexual hierarchy, particularly the relationships between deltas and gammas. These are relationships between deltas and gammas that I have witnessed:

When you have a solid group of deltas, who are all good friends and are most often lead by a couple of betas or an alpha, gammas will try to ween themselves in to this group as they see it as a way to climb the socio-sexual ladder. If the alpha is a complete natural, he will probably at first allow the gamma some access to the group, as why would he give a fuck about anything? If he is a developed alpha or a disguised sigma, he will sniff out the gamma almost instantly and will turn the group against him. As the gamma will soon show his true side in either instance, the deltas will rebel against the newcomer and the leader(s) of the group will be forced to get rid of him to maintain the hierarchy.

However if a situation arises where you have a highly manipulative gamma, who perhaps also looks physically dominating (Rigsby's step father that he has posted about in the gamma megathread is the perfect example of this in my opinion) and a small group of deltas/omegas who were perhaps expelled from a larger tribe, then the gamma will enter the group and may even rise to be the leader. This is where gammas are at their worst. They are vindicated in their self-elevated delusional state of mind, and the deltas may believe that he is an alpha for at least a short period of time, but eventually the gamma will always be found out.


For me, one of the most interesting conflicts that arises is between the beta and the highly skilled gamma that I described above. Can the beta spot the gamma and does he have the authority over the deltas to get them all to turn on a highly manipulative gamma? Personally I would say I'm a mix between beta, sigma and delta. This partly explains why I often find myself calling out typical gamma behaviour in a way to publicly embarrass them and enrage them- calling out when they have straight-up lied or their spite-filled actions.

However both the beta and sigma sides in me holds back on dishing out the consequences to the gamma. The beta side wants to validate the alpha's position by allowing him to dish out the punishment, the sigma side says my job is done once I've got under the gamma's skin. The delta side says why did I do this, am I now at risk from a highly sociopathic gamma (Elliot Rodgers) for calling them out?

Usually once you call out a gamma, their rage will cause them to make offensive statements about others in the group either out of spite or accidentally as they can't hold their delusional thoughts inside their brain.

[nomadbrah]

Someone wrote "how can my father be gamma if he gets women".

The true gamma is hopefully rather rare. You'd have a particularly nasty person and probably wouldn't be in doubt. I see it more as traits to avoid that arise from narcissism and a hurt ego and I shudder in shame at my the times I've acted as a gamma. Which I suppose is the natural reaction and a good internal checklist (will this make me act gamma), then deep breath, resist the narcissist urge for spite, egomania or vengeance.

As for those who are real gammas, they've been called other things before. "Toxic people" among others, but it could it be "malignant narcissist" fits the best?

Malignant Narcissism:

Quote:

Why is the behavior of malignant narcissism often considered dangerous?

Individuals with this profile can form connections with others. However, they process information in ways that can hurt society in general, but also the people who love or depend on them. Family, co-workers, employees, and others in their lives often have to walk on eggshells to appease a fragile ego and minimize the occurrence of their unstable, impulsive, or aggressive behaviors.

They lash out or humiliate others for infractions of even the most frivolous nature (for example, you gave an opinion that differed from theirs; you demonstrated confidence, and it made them look bad; you told a joke that involved poking fun at them).

For some, their grandiosity and protection of their fragile "true self" can be at such extreme levels that they will lie and give the impression that simply because they say it, that makes it reality. Many will become angered if their lies are challenged with truth or facts. Of course, this can create problems for the people close to them, as this pattern of behavior can easily veer into gaslighting.

Malignant narcissism is a blend of two disorders that pose problems interpersonally for their victims — narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders. It is not uncommon for others to feel anxious, intimidated by, and fearful of people with this condition. The combination of poor empathy coupled with aggression, hypersensitivity, and suspiciousness can bring pain to others.

Those who interact with malignant narcissists often consider them jealous, petty, thin-skinned, punitive, hateful, cunning, and angry. Given their shallowness, they are not regulated emotionally and have beliefs that swing from one extreme to the next.

[estraudi]

(12-26-2017 04:33 PM)The Catalyst Wrote:  

(12-26-2017 08:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

I'm an INTJ: pattern recognition is just more obvious for me than for other personality types. For example, Bill asked me to do something involving a machine for him tonight that normally takes people five times longer to do it than it took me. He couldn't believe I had finished, even when I explained how it was a repetitive task, so it was easy to identify the most likely causes of problems and refine the process to avoid them arising.

I'm INTJ as well as Sigma. Is it possible the two are related and/or highly correlated?

I'm INFJ and figure close to Sigma. Everything you could possibly read bout INFJ & INTJ is damn near the same. I've been reading INFJ/INTJ articles & questions on quora.com and the similarities are astounding.

Self-sufficiency being a trait at the very top of identifying the 2 personality types. Few people are talking about this.

[AnonymousBosch]

(12-26-2017 11:34 AM)Nonpareil Wrote:  

At what age in (male) kids does it go from 'he's just a kid' to gamma behavior? I'm seeing some behaviors that are worrisome, but it could just be a part of the process.

I've said before I suspect Sigma and Gamma are both extremes of inter-related dysfunction, which is why I keep stressing Sigma isn't 'cool alpha'. I had to work hard to temper bitterness, suspicion of the motivations of others, the desire to generate constant conflict and self-destructive behaviour. I have three of them sorted: I still can't turn off always looking out for the con.

The obvious commonality between both of them seems the 'Fuck it, burn it all down' instinct. The Sigma because it doesn't fucking matter anyway, the Gamma because it offers the power to hurt their enemy.

I had strong Gamma tendencies as a child, when my mother dominated the household since Dad was largely absent doing his Alpha thing with his friends and whatever the toy de jeur was (motorcross, rally car driving, hang-gliding, nude photography of chicks with giant 70's bushes). The cold, hard reality of losing my home and my father slapped me out of Gamma and my mother wasn't strong enough to dominate me. Before that, I would have thought I was better, more intelligent and that I should be more popular than everyone else. After the event, who the fuck cares who is better or smarter or more popular when the entire system is bullshit?

Nonpareil: it sounds like the kid is about to hit puberty and have a growing awareness of peer group judgment. The worst thing that can happen is for the women in his family to do what women do and give him an unrealistic self-perception. ie. "Just be yourself and girls will like you," or "You're nice just the way you are." NO.

He needs to have a realistic understanding of women, and they're not innocent little fawns who need protection from the big bad alpha wolves, and that they willingly-choose to be with those men. He needs to hear that "She's out of your league, Kid" because they have a habit of fixating on Queen Bee's in school rather than the Plain Janes that they might stand a chance with. He needs to called out when he's engaged in self-delusion about his mental or physical attractiveness before he's old enough for any negative reprisals for calling him out to have any real power.

I lived on the street there for a while in my early teens. I saw what some of the other street kids in my circle did to survive. What largely-killed Gamma in me was the knowledge that the world not only didn't revolve around me, it didn't care if I lived or died. Obviously, you can't toss most children into that crucible.

Vox Day, very perceptively, points out that Gammas consistently-fail at not being Gamma by setting their sights towards becoming Alpha, which is beyond them, rather than Delta, which they could achieve with some work.

------

I've realised I have to slap the Gamma out of my Stepdad, reprisals be damned. We had a conversation this morning that was so jaw-droppingly appalling in terms of how the Gamma Mind operates that, man, I can't write about it while I'm still this physically-disgusted. If Aurini thinks he's seen the depths of, as he puts it 'Sneaky Sneaky Gamma', he has no idea. I'll try and write it up tonight.

[Genghis Khan]

(12-26-2017 04:33 PM)The Catalyst Wrote:  

(12-26-2017 08:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

I'm an INTJ: pattern recognition is just more obvious for me than for other personality types. For example, Bill asked me to do something involving a machine for him tonight that normally takes people five times longer to do it than it took me. He couldn't believe I had finished, even when I explained how it was a repetitive task, so it was easy to identify the most likely causes of problems and refine the process to avoid them arising.

I'm INTJ as well as Sigma. Is it possible the two are related and/or highly correlated?

That's been my thought as well. It seems a lot of what's been about Sigmas actually describe the Introverted Intuition (Ni) dominant types.

In fact, I was wondering if the difference between Sigma and Alpha comes down to whether you're an INTJ (INFJ perhaps as well) or an ENTJ:

* ENTJ - dominant Extroverted Thinking - would explain the Alpha commanding people around behavior
* INTJ - dominant Introverted Intuition - would explain the Sigma sitting back and observing behavior

Might also explain why people get confused by the distinction of Alpha/Sigma since Sigmas externally (extroverted) display Extroverted Thinking. At least that's what I've understood: supposedly since people can't see the Ni in your head, but they can see Te in your behavior, they see you as a dominant Te (Alpha).

Also if you look at the RVF MBTI thread, INTJs are overwhelmingly represented. And so are supposedly Sigmas on this forum. I don't think it's a coincidence. Scott Adams is most definitely an INTJ.

Though I don't think ENTJs would be the only type to exhibit Alpha behavior. Probably a few more do, especially the ones strongly geared towards pleasing people. What would that be, Extroverted Feeling-dominant I believe, right? Where you're overly concerned about how other people are feeling. This would be in contrast to the Introverted Feeling exhibited by INTJs, which focused more on doing the right thing. This would explain why guys like Bill get infuriated when others (like AB's stepdad) are faking shit. It's an insult to their Fi. The fourth function for INTJs would be Se, Extroverted Sensing. Since it's especially weak in INTJs, it's also highly volatile and would explain Comte's exposition that Sigmas have an inherent death wish. A very weak Se leads to extraordinary risky behavior.

This is also why I do believe Donald Trump is actually an Alpha, he comes across more as an ENTJ than an INTJ. However as people develop their functions over their lifetime, it's possible Trump has a strong Introverted Intuition function as well. The Ni would make him immune to leftist programming and explain why he wants to build a wall (Ni are notoriously good at predicting the future, so he can see where mass immigration leads to). Add in the weaker Se and Fi, and it could explain why when he feels outraged (Fi), he goes and blasts people on Twitter (Se). Thus perhaps sometimes he comes across as a Sigma, especially when he epically triggers the left. Though the fact he loves crowds and loves to do things all the time makes me believe it's Te that dominates him.

It might also explain why AB's dad was an Alpha, and so was his stepbrother, while he's a Sigma. I'm convinced these types have a strong genetic component. From my own personal experience, I used to think my behavior was due to my childhood. But then I realized other people have very similar backgrounds, and they turned out completely different. The only commonality I saw was that I took after my dad, while my friends (who again had the same experiences) took after their dads.

If you assume AB's dad is an ENTJ and that stuff is mostly genetic, then his sons would probably also have dominant Te and Ni functions, and you'd probably see INTJs and ENTJs. Hahah, might even answer Suits' question if AB has any Betas in his family. Daario Nardi, a neuroscientist at UCLA, discovered that different parts of the brain are connected to different Jungian types. In other words, they have a physical basis and MRIs show that for example INTJs show a different brain activity pattern than an ESTP for example. Different brain activity in different people most likely has a genetic component to it (i.e. your DNA saying which brain areas will dominate).

Gammas honestly remind me of INTPs (Introverted Thinking dominant, autistic people). I'm pretty sure Vox Day is an INTP considering his incessant need to define definitions and really odd hobbies like Japanese metal rock. I'm pretty sure he's also a Gamma too considering how he lashed out against Gab.ai because 2 anonymous posters call him a pedo. I feel a real Sigma would just shrug off that online randos called him a pedophile. Meanwhile only a Gamma would go to the lengths to try to force Gab.ai to reveal the identities of these 2 posters and destroy their lives. I wouldn't be surprised if the posters were just 16y old kids or something.

It's quite possible all VD really did was translate the Jungian types in a form that focused on their attractiveness to the opposite sex (his socio-sexual hierarchy), with the question of Gamma, Omega, Alpha, Sigma really depending on which types are dominant and whether you develop your non-dominant functions. The weak Fe in INTPs and basically non-existent Fe in INTJs would explain why they both behave as omegas/gammas (socially retarded people) when young. INTJs through their Ni eventually realize the world doesn't revolve around them, meanwhile I think INTPs might be a bit too busy focusing on definitions to look up and see reality.

I might be completely wrong about all this though. I'm still learning, so quite open to criticism.

In terms of Gammas getting created by single moms - again, I wonder how much of that is genetic. For example: guy is a Gamma, abandons his family, kids end up growing up Gamma (would've happened regardless of abandonment) and what we see is a Gamma kid of a Gamma dad.

One of my closest friends is possibly a Gamma. When AB talked about Gammas being in the kitchen during get-togethers, I lost it. That's him to a T. Here's the interesting part: his dad committed suicide when my friend was barely 12 years old. So the kid didn't grow up with a dad and his mom even told me she gave him too much freedom as a kid.

Now why did the father commit suicide? Apparently because he didn't think he was living up to his potential. I read that as: people didn't realize how amazing he was. Dude was also an alcoholic and would wake up my friend at 4am to lecture him about how fucked up the world is. That sounds gamma to me - this unacceptance of how the world really works.

My friend met up with an old college mate of his dad last year. The mate told my friend he reminded him so much of his dad. So question:

do gamma dads genetically produce gamma kids?
and do alpha/sigma dads genetically produce alpha/sigma kids?
can all of Alpha/Sigma/Omega/Gamma/Beta/Delta be explained by Jungian type?

Although I would guess that verbal vs. spatial IQ might matter. The impression I get is that people with high verbal IQs (like AB and Jordan Peterson) pick up on people very quickly. Meanwhile those with higher spatial IQ take a longer time to understand people, though the flipside is that they tend to succeed exceptionally well in technological fields. See for example Elon Musk - clearly an INTJ, in the tech field. But gets killed relationship-wise, for example by not realizing Amber Hearst is deeply messed up and most likely a BPD.

[RexImperator]

There could be something to what you say. I'm INTP and currently Omega.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE