[polar]

Apologies if this is a bit off topic - I supplement with Universal Nutrition's Natural Sterol Complex, which is supposed to be something like building blocks for testosterone in your body - it doesn't directly replace testosterone, so side effects are supposed to be minimal. Never done any bloodwork for numbers, but can definitely feel a difference in libido, confidence, aggressiveness. I personally wouldn't touch steroids because of the $ required and it's above my level of intensity / pay grade to learn my way around it.

I understand that prohormones are often used for PCT - are there any risks to taking prohormones constantly (no steroid cycles, just sterols / prohormones year round)?

[Chrysalis]

Sterols are bullshit. Those are harmless chems that do have the sterol rings, but they'll never amount to anything in the body. Don't bother.

Prohormones are steroids, except they're dependent on body's limited enzymes to be active, so there's no danger of overdosing. If you take too much, the body won't convert those to steroids.

I wouldn't take them year round. Even low doses of steroids, like with prohormones, can induce some weirdness if taken too long. Otherwise, they're safe.

[Checkmat]

I'll add to this thread my experience. I ran Hdrol (a legal prohormone, derivative of the east German Turinabol) for 3 weeks. I gained an inch in my arms, strength was soaring and weight gain was about 15lbs (in THREE WEEKS). I was ecstatic about the gains.

The sides however were horrible for me. Insomnia and awful back pain. It got so bad that I had to cut my cycle short and stop after about 3.5 weeks. My PCT protocol was fucked up. I didn't take enough items and not for long enough since I said "oh well I didn't run a full cycle anyway". Got some minor gyno symptoms, lost ALL of my gains and I think I was even weaker and had less muscle than before running the cycle.

So if I could go back in time, I would NOT have run the cycle at all. Everyone responds differently to this stuff and for me I was definitely not a good candidate for steroids.

If you have a history of depression, I would stay far away. Two weeks after stopping my cycle, I fell into a suicidal depression that lasted for a month. It was the darkest low I've ever felt in my life and was really scared I was going to kill myself. It's not being ON steroids that makes people suicidal---It's the cessation.

While I was on cycle, other sides I had were an increased libido and a much MUCH stronger erection (girlfriend actually thought my penis was bigger).

The bad thing is, you won't really know how you'll respond. Hdrol is considered one of the most mild, low-side effects steroid you can take and it still fucked me up so bad. Non-methylated compounds like straight testosterone probably will be 10x safer but you have to inject it.

Llewelyn's book Anabolics is VERY good, I've read it and it helped me understand how the drugs all interact.

Again, if you already have issues with mental health or anything else like that I wouldn't touch these drugs. For other people, they get ZERO side effects and all positives. It's like rolling dice.

[dog24]

Seems like no one wants to go first, i might aswell ask. Lets say im 80kg at 15% been training on and off for 8 years what should i use for a first cycle? Does trenbolone aromatize and give you gyno? I heard youre not supposed to use it without test, so which one cipionate, enantate? Have about the one that has 3 test combined i dont know the brand in each country.... Most guys i know start with just winstrol but ive heard how it kills your libido without test. How bout deca and dbol their both nandrolone so whats the diference? Ive read theyre very prone to give gyno. What should one do if bp gets too high? PCT suggestions ? How often will i have to stick a needle in my ass is that the only place i can inject it? Ive read some stuff about scar tissue forming if you inject it in your shoulder any info? Should i take an aromatase inhibitor or anti estrogen are good enough?

[Every10GivesMeA10]

(07-09-2013 02:55 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Seems like no one wants to go first, i might aswell ask. Lets say im 80kg at 15% been training on and off for 8 years what should i use for a first cycle? Does trenbolone aromatize and give you gyno? I heard youre not supposed to use it without test, so which one cipionate, enantate? Have about the one that has 3 test combined i dont know the brand in each country.... Most guys i know start with just winstrol but ive heard how it kills your libido without test. How bout deca and dbol their both nandrolone so whats the diference? Ive read theyre very prone to give gyno. What should one do if bp gets too high? PCT suggestions ? How often will i have to stick a needle in my ass is that the only place i can inject it? Ive read some stuff about scar tissue forming if you inject it in your shoulder any info? Should i take an aromatase inhibitor or anti estrogen are good enough?

How old are you? Blast and cruise man. Nearly everyone who cycles loses their gains.

[That Wet]

(07-09-2013 02:55 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Seems like no one wants to go first, i might aswell ask. Lets say im 80kg at 15% been training on and off for 8 years what should i use for a first cycle? Does trenbolone aromatize and give you gyno? I heard youre not supposed to use it without test, so which one cipionate, enantate? Have about the one that has 3 test combined i dont know the brand in each country.... Most guys i know start with just winstrol but ive heard how it kills your libido without test. How bout deca and dbol their both nandrolone so whats the diference? Ive read theyre very prone to give gyno. What should one do if bp gets too high? PCT suggestions ? How often will i have to stick a needle in my ass is that the only place i can inject it? Ive read some stuff about scar tissue forming if you inject it in your shoulder any info? Should i take an aromatase inhibitor or anti estrogen are good enough?

What you should use depends on what your goals are. At 15% Bf I am going to assume you want to lose BF + get lean gains. It looks like you are already considering using test + tren.

Trenbolone does not aromatize at all. It can however, cause issues with prolactin. For this you can have either cabergoline or pramipexole on hand, if you start getting nipple pains. Trenbolone should be used with LOW dose test. Standard protocol is to use it with test propionate. Propionate is a short acting ester, that typically causes the least amount of bloat.

An easy beginner cycle could look like this:
50 mgs trenbolone acetate (every day)
50-100 mgs testosterone propionate (every other day)
Even this low dose cycle can produce some pretty incredible results. Even more so as you bump that tren up to 100+ mgs a day.

You can bump the tren up after a couple of weeks if you're not experiencing bad sides.

Diet should be High carbs, medium protein, and very low fats.

I would also recommend blasting and cruising if you're over 25. Coming off cycle and doing PCT is hell on the body, and you will most likely lose those gains.

[MikeCF]

(07-09-2013 07:38 PM)That Wet Wrote:  

I would also recommend blasting and cruising if you're over 25. Coming off cycle and doing PCT is hell on the body, and you will most likely lose those gains.

You don't think it's irresponsible to give "steroid advice" to someone who has clearly done no research at all?

[MikeCF]

(07-09-2013 03:25 PM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  

How old are you? Blast and cruise man. Nearly everyone who cycles loses their gains.

Guys who pay their dues and use gear responsibly don't.

Anyone who says he has been training "off and on" is not a candidate for anabolic steroid usage.

That's the guy who will use a bunch of gear, go in, lift too much, and tear a tendon.

Or he'll not get injured and gain 20 pounds.

But once you take away his magical elixirs, he won't stay in the gym because he has no dedication.

Guys who respond well to gear and keep their gains are the ones who don't train "off and on" but instead train consistently and who do not need gear in order to hit the gym.

[That Wet]

(07-09-2013 07:45 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 07:38 PM)That Wet Wrote:  

I would also recommend blasting and cruising if you're over 25. Coming off cycle and doing PCT is hell on the body, and you will most likely lose those gains.

You don't think it's irresponsible to give "steroid advice" to someone who has clearly done no research at all?

No, I don't. He asked for advice, and I gave some really basic info. Simply trying to add value to the forum in an area I have some knowledge. I would hope he, or anyone else, does some serious research before injecting compounds into their muscle tissue.

(07-09-2013 07:48 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 03:25 PM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  

How old are you? Blast and cruise man. Nearly everyone who cycles loses their gains.

Guys who pay their dues and use gear responsibly don't.

Anyone who says he has been training "off and on" is not a candidate for anabolic steroid usage.

That's the guy who will use a bunch of gear, go in, lift too much, and tear a tendon.

Or he'll not get injured and gain 20 pounds.

But once you take away his magical elixirs, he won't stay in the gym because he has no dedication.

Guys who respond well to gear and keep their gains are the ones who don't train "off and on" but instead train consistently and who do not need gear in order to hit the gym.

I agree 100% that anyone who isn't serious about training, or does not have a good muscle base to start, should not touch aas, as they are putting themselves at risk for injury as you stated.

You will however, lose ALL gains over your natural max if you cycle completely off. Blasting and cruising simply refers to running a cycle, and then "cruising" at TRT doses of 100-200mgs a week of test, keeping test levels on the high level of "normal" ranges.

.

[dog24]

I did research a lot about this a few years ago but gave up the idea after i began BJJ. By on and off i mean i got very lean after 1+ year of BJJ and then again after 1+ year of MT which left me at the time at 155. At my biggest i was 190, 70lbs heavier than when i began training no comment on whether thats enough dedication or not. I appreciate the advice not really looking to be on TRT for life yet im only 26, and i guess this isnt a forum for this kind of things.

[MikeCF]

(07-09-2013 08:09 PM)That Wet Wrote:  

You will however, lose ALL gains over your natural max if you cycle completely off. Blasting and cruising simply refers to running a cycle, and then "cruising" at TRT doses of 100-200mgs a week of test, keeping test levels on the high level of "normal" ranges.

Do you think a 25 year old should be on testosterone injections for the rest of his life?

What if his T levels were already in the high-normal range?

Shouldn't someone get his T levels measured before considering a cycle of anabolic steroids?

What about blood work? Should a guy get labs done during a cycle? What should he look for?

What about serms and other ancillaries?

You suggested someone you've never met take a "low dose cycle" that included up to half a gram of test. Is 500 mg/test a week really a "low dose"? By whose definition?

In my view, crazy to tell someone to start shooting T when he and you don't even have a baseline reading of T levels.

If some kid has high test, why shut his body's natural production down?

Someone in his 20s with good test levels should very very very carefully consider taking test. He should train his ass off, eat clean, and monitor his blood levels.

If you disagree, that's cool. But you really outta lay it all out there.

"Hey, kid, get used to needles. If you start taking test at 25, your body is going to shut down. This means you'll need to take a test injections every week for the rest of your life."

Since cyp and enthanate bloat, he's gonna shoot prop 3 times a week?

That's 150 injections a year.

I dunno...Seems crazy to rush into that and seems wrong to tell some kid who hasn't even read a book to start juicing without laying it all on the line.

[MikeCF]

(07-09-2013 08:45 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

I did research a lot about this a few years ago but gave up the idea after i began BJJ. By on and off i mean i got very lean after 1+ year of BJJ and then again after 1+ year of MT which left me at the time at 155. At my biggest i was 190, 70lbs heavier than when i began training no comment on whether thats enough dedication or not. I appreciate the advice not really looking to be on TRT for life yet im only 26, and i guess this isnt a forum for this kind of things.

26 is too young to fuck around with gear unless you're trying to be a bodybuilder or your income is based on your body.

Train hard, train consistently, eat clean, and when your body starts to slow down, look into the dark side.

[That Wet]

(07-09-2013 08:58 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-09-2013 08:09 PM)That Wet Wrote:  

You will however, lose ALL gains over your natural max if you cycle completely off. Blasting and cruising simply refers to running a cycle, and then "cruising" at TRT doses of 100-200mgs a week of test, keeping test levels on the high level of "normal" ranges.

Do you think a 25 year old should be on testosterone injections for the rest of his life?

What if his T levels were already in the high-normal range?

Shouldn't someone get his T levels measured before considering a cycle of anabolic steroids?

What about blood work? Should a guy get labs done during a cycle? What should he look for?

What about serms and other ancillaries?

You suggested someone you've never met take a "low dose cycle" that included up to half a gram of test. Is 500 mg/test a week really a "low dose"? By whose definition?

In my view, crazy to tell someone to start shooting T when he and you don't even have a baseline reading of T levels.

If some kid has high test, why shut his body's natural production down?

Someone in his 20s with good test levels should very very very carefully consider taking test. He should train his ass off, eat clean, and monitor his blood levels.

If you disagree, that's cool. But you really outta lay it all out there.

"Hey, kid, get used to needles. If you start taking test at 25, your body is going to shut down. This means you'll need to take a test injections every week for the rest of your life."

Since cyp and enthanate bloat, he's gonna shoot prop 3 times a week?

That's 150 injections a year.

I dunno...Seems crazy to rush into that and seems wrong to tell some kid who hasn't even read a book to start juicing without laying it all on the line.

I didn't tell anyone to start juicing, I just laid out some basic info, and addressed some of the questions he put out. If someone reads one post from a forum about aas, and then starts blasting they are retarded.

As for someone in their 20's with healthy test levels using test and other compounds, that's entirely their call. I would certainly suggest your getting your levels tested first, as I mentioned before. But, if you are already at your natty max, then there is zero point to using aas and then cycling off, as you will have put your body through all that only to lose the gains.

50-100 mgs prop EOD isn't 500mgs a week either, it's 175-350, and yes, that is a low dose by any standards. Tren is ~5x more anabolic than test, and a low dose is recommended primarily to keep sides under control.

I get that your against guys in their 20's using hormones, and that's fine.

There are some good private boards where you can spend a good 6 months reading, to learn what you need to know to use hormones effectively/ safely. gh15 has the most accurate info that I've seen.

Clearly this isn't the place for that.

[Every10GivesMeA10]

Well one things for sure, he shouldn't start with tren.

[Kristian]

I'm actually running a 8 weeks cyle of 250 mg test cypionate and 220 mg trenbolone weekly.I will take wins furing the final weeks.

I didn't notice any side and the look is getting extremely shredded.

My ptc will is composed of tamox and hcg.

During all the cycle i'm taking proviron,which is good to give a more "rock" look and prevents gyno.

[Chrysalis]

(07-10-2013 05:46 AM)Kristian Wrote:  

I'm actually running a 8 weeks cyle of 250 mg test cypionate and 220 mg trenbolone weekly.I will take wins furing the final weeks.

I didn't notice any side and the look is getting extremely shredded.

My ptc will is composed of tamox and hcg.

During all the cycle i'm taking proviron,which is good to give a more "rock" look and prevents gyno.

Looks solid.