[mikeymike]

(04-09-2012 08:11 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

Its my understanding that steroids are still illegal correct?

Is there anything like "baby-steroids" were the gains aren't as good but they also don't eff with your body as much? I know pro-hormones used to be legal but they're illegal now.

pro hormones effed with your body with less results...but are you talking legal to legal grey area stuff that'll help you improve your body without resorting to illegal substances? in short, not really. Creatine some like it, I think short of with var it's shit and anavar is illegal. If you're talking steroids that are easier on the body then yes there are those, so depends on what you mean before i can answer better.

[_DC_]

(04-09-2012 09:24 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 08:11 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

Its my understanding that steroids are still illegal correct?

Is there anything like "baby-steroids" were the gains aren't as good but they also don't eff with your body as much? I know pro-hormones used to be legal but they're illegal now.

pro hormones effed with your body with less results...but are you talking legal to legal grey area stuff that'll help you improve your body without resorting to illegal substances? in short, not really. Creatine some like it, I think short of with var it's shit and anavar is illegal. If you're talking steroids that are easier on the body then yes there are those, so depends on what you mean before i can answer better.

I was talking something like H-Drol.

I'm not considering anything of the sort for myself anytime soon. I was just curious.

[garygroundwork]

[quote] (04-09-2012 07:12 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

[quote='assman' pid='192197' dateline='1334011912']
[quote='garygroundwork' pid='192183' dateline='1334010935']

Dude is listed as being 100kg which is pretty big.(Wiki)
The thing about roids is that if you are skinny with very little body fat then they will help you tremendously, due to his body type he did not have to worry about getting fat. He is young and was constantly taking clenbuterol, which is a very strong fat burner that I believe was designed for horses.
His death was caused by recreational drugs like coke and ectasy. It seems like he led a rock star lifestyle and in the end his heart said no more, funny enough he died in Thailand.[/quote]

how can u say that with any authority? IF he was taking coke and ecstasy you are correct they would of contributed to the heart failure along with the copius amount of steroids he had used which strain organs in particular the heart...increase cholesterol etc. but it would be extremely naieve to think his steroid abuse didn't play a role.

[assman]

Well if he was using clenbuterol, coke and chilling in a sauna, I imagine that would put extreme stress on the heart, and apparently his heart was faulty to begin with.

What I don't understand is how a guy like that wasn't getting lots of advice, even if not from doctors, at least from experienced users about how to cycle and dangerous drug combinations.

[rudebwoy]

(04-09-2012 10:31 PM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

[quote] (04-09-2012 07:12 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

[quote='garygroundwork' pid='192183' dateline='1334010935']

Dude is listed as being 100kg which is pretty big.(Wiki)
The thing about roids is that if you are skinny with very little body fat then they will help you tremendously, due to his body type he did not have to worry about getting fat. He is young and was constantly taking clenbuterol, which is a very strong fat burner that I believe was designed for horses.
His death was caused by recreational drugs like coke and ectasy. It seems like he led a rock star lifestyle and in the end his heart said no more, funny enough he died in Thailand.

how can u say that with any authority? IF he was taking coke and ecstasy you are correct they would of contributed to the heart failure along with the copius amount of steroids he had used which strain organs in particular the heart...increase cholesterol etc. but it would be extremely naieve to think his steroid abuse didn't play a role.

His death was caused by a combination of ALL the drugs he was taking, I meant the coke/mdma/clen mix probably set him over the edge. This is probably what caused his heart to be enlarged.
There is no evidence that steroids alone will kill you.

[garygroundwork]

(04-09-2012 10:48 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

[said no more, funny enough he died in Thailand.

His death was caused by a combination of ALL the drugs he was taking, I meant the coke/mdma/clen mix probably set him over the edge. This is probably what caused his heart to be enlarged.
There is no evidence that steroids alone will kill you.

yep there it is...the old it was something else...love it.

your right there is no evidence BECAUSE YOU DON'T DIE FROM INJECTING STEROIDS...you die from the health implcations they cause. So death can not be directly attributed to it and it never will.

lets try and think of some famous people...

Sonny Schmidt died at 46
Scott Klein died at 30
Ron Teufel died at 45
Dan Duchaine died at 48
Mohammed Benaziza died at 28
Andreas Munzer died at 30
Mike Mentzer died at 49
Ray Mentzer died at 47
Don Ross died at 55
Dr. John Tristany died
Don Peters died
Ray Raridon died
Luke Mr. Perfect
Ravishing Rick Rude
british bulldog
louie spiccoli
brian pillman
Chris Candido
Junkyard Dog
Hercules
Big John Studd
Hawk (from legion of doom)
Crash Holly
eddie geurrero
Vivian Vachon
Terry Gordywood died at 32
Luke wood died at 32 kidney failure
Zyzzz died at 22 heart
Gino Hernandez - 29
Jay Youngblood - 30
Rick McGraw - 30
Joey Marella - 30
Ed Gatner - 31
Buzz Sawyer - 32
Crash Holly - 32
Kerry Von Erich - 33
D.J. Peterson - 33
Eddie Gilbert - 33
The Renegade - 33
Chris Candido - 33
Adrian Adonis - 34
Gary Albright - 34
Bobby Duncum Jr. - 34
Big Dick Dudley - 34
Marianna Komlos - 35
Pitbull #2 - 36
The Wall/Malice - 36
Emory Hale - 36
Leroy Brown - 38
Mark Curtis - 38
John Kronus - 38
Johnny Grunge - 39


Dennis Newman (leukemia)
Orville Burke (coma)
Don Long (kidney failure)
Tom Prince (kidney failure)
Flex Wheeler (kidney transplant)
Tom Prince (kidney failure)
Ed Corney (stroke)
Boyer Coe (heart)
Danny Padilla (heart)
Pete Grymkowski (heart)
Mike Martarazzo 39 (triple bypass heart surgery)
Arnold-heart surgery

thats all i can think of right now

steroids had nothing to do with any of these guys dying young or their health complications.... there is no evidence.

Interfering with your brain chemistry and HPTA loop with synthetic compounds is good for you.

[assman]

Interesting list. A couple more:
Lyle Alzado, 43
Jesse Marunde, 27

[Screwston]

I'm a skinny guy. Can I take them to help me put on some weight quickly, get off them and keep that weight? Or will it fall off as soon as I stop them?

[garygroundwork]

(04-10-2012 02:25 AM)houston Wrote:  

I'm a skinny guy. Can I take them to help me put on some weight quickly, get off them and keep that weight? Or will it fall off as soon as I stop them?

are u serious?

if you are... u need to build a natural base first...eat 6/7 meals a day (min) loads of protein, carbs and good fats combined with a program of heavy compound movements-squats, bench, deads etc. keep cardio to a minimum.

if u use steroids now you are setting yourself up for failure in the future.

[Lukey]

(04-10-2012 02:25 AM)houston Wrote:  

I'm a skinny guy. Can I take them to help me put on some weight quickly, get off them and keep that weight? Or will it fall off as soon as I stop them?

It all depends on what cycle you do and your diet/work out routine going forward after PCT.

You will immediately lose about 10-20% of your gains after a test only cycle, however, going against garygroundwork's comments, your gains can be retained providing you continue the same strict diet and training regime.

[MikeCF]

(04-10-2012 02:05 AM)assman Wrote:  

Interesting list. A couple more:
Lyle Alzado, 43
Jesse Marunde, 27

Alzado's brain tumor wasnt caused by steroids.
http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Alzado_Lyle.html


Marunde had a congenital defect and was always on borowed time. His wife had an autopsy done to shut up hateful know-nothings.

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms...fectx.html

[assman]

(04-10-2012 03:42 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(04-10-2012 02:05 AM)assman Wrote:  

Interesting list. A couple more:
Lyle Alzado, 43
Jesse Marunde, 27

Alzado's brain tumor wasnt caused by steroids.
http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Alzado_Lyle.html


Marunde had a congenital defect and was always on borowed time. His wife had an autopsy done to shut up hateful know-nothings.

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms...fectx.html

I'm not saying that their deaths were caused by steroids, only that these are more guys who were using steroids and who died young of health issues.

Personally, I doubt steroids kill at 'normal' dosages. And it should be noted that many of the names on that list were dosing at levels and in combinations that the average guy really wouldn't need.

[mikeymike]

(04-10-2012 01:39 AM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 10:48 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

[said no more, funny enough he died in Thailand.

His death was caused by a combination of ALL the drugs he was taking, I meant the coke/mdma/clen mix probably set him over the edge. This is probably what caused his heart to be enlarged.
There is no evidence that steroids alone will kill you.

yep there it is...the old it was something else...love it.

your right there is no evidence BECAUSE YOU DON'T DIE FROM INJECTING STEROIDS...you die from the health implcations they cause. So death can not be directly attributed to it and it never will.

lets try and think of some famous people...

Sonny Schmidt died at 46
Scott Klein died at 30
Ron Teufel died at 45
Dan Duchaine died at 48
Mohammed Benaziza died at 28
Andreas Munzer died at 30
Mike Mentzer died at 49
Ray Mentzer died at 47
Don Ross died at 55
Dr. John Tristany died
Don Peters died
Ray Raridon died
Luke Mr. Perfect
Ravishing Rick Rude
british bulldog
louie spiccoli
brian pillman
Chris Candido
Junkyard Dog
Hercules
Big John Studd
Hawk (from legion of doom)
Crash Holly
eddie geurrero
Vivian Vachon
Terry Gordywood died at 32
Luke wood died at 32 kidney failure
Zyzzz died at 22 heart
Gino Hernandez - 29
Jay Youngblood - 30
Rick McGraw - 30
Joey Marella - 30
Ed Gatner - 31
Buzz Sawyer - 32
Crash Holly - 32
Kerry Von Erich - 33
D.J. Peterson - 33
Eddie Gilbert - 33
The Renegade - 33
Chris Candido - 33
Adrian Adonis - 34
Gary Albright - 34
Bobby Duncum Jr. - 34
Big Dick Dudley - 34
Marianna Komlos - 35
Pitbull #2 - 36
The Wall/Malice - 36
Emory Hale - 36
Leroy Brown - 38
Mark Curtis - 38
John Kronus - 38
Johnny Grunge - 39


Dennis Newman (leukemia)
Orville Burke (coma)
Don Long (kidney failure)
Tom Prince (kidney failure)
Flex Wheeler (kidney transplant)
Tom Prince (kidney failure)
Ed Corney (stroke)
Boyer Coe (heart)
Danny Padilla (heart)
Pete Grymkowski (heart)
Mike Martarazzo 39 (triple bypass heart surgery)
Arnold-heart surgery

thats all i can think of right now

steroids had nothing to do with any of these guys dying young or their health complications.... there is no evidence.

Interfering with your brain chemistry and HPTA loop with synthetic compounds is good for you.

when you're talking wrestlers, watch the wrestler and get a glimpse of what that life is about, its brutal, it takes a toll on the body, they're constantly on painkillers and other drugs along with steroids. Steroids aren't helping the situation but when you're living on Ai's, heavy doses of painkillers, live by taking bumps where things like concussions are prevalent you're not painting an entirely accurate picture pinning it on steroids.

As for professional weight lifters again you're talking a small subsect of the user population, most guys aren't going to live on 3-4 grams of gear year round 10 years +, carrying around 300 pounds + in the offseason, pushing their bodies to the extremes of mass overweight to shredded in weeks...using things like diuretics, drug use is common for joint pain, recovery not to mention rec drug use.

Comparing the rec user to the serial abuser and saying you touch gear you're gonna end up like these guys is fear mongering. Some of the list had issues before gear, things like congenital heart defects etc...it's too simple to link all this to steroids...you might as well say they all died of asprin as they all took loads of it during their lives. A culmination of things took them down, abusing anything is asking for trouble.

[mikeymike]

(04-09-2012 10:39 PM)assman Wrote:  

Well if he was using clenbuterol, coke and chilling in a sauna, I imagine that would put extreme stress on the heart, and apparently his heart was faulty to begin with.

What I don't understand is how a guy like that wasn't getting lots of advice, even if not from doctors, at least from experienced users about how to cycle and dangerous drug combinations.

experienced users can just offer their own experiences. Guys I'm trying to shred down anyone have troubles with clen and their heart.....20 guys chime in and say no it works like butter...2 chime in and say the palpatations freaked them out and they wont go near it again...you're 20 and thinking your invincible who are you listening to? He wasn't stupid, he had to know rec drugs in that combo wasn't a good thing but im sure he had done it before without issue so what was another time...We've all done stupid shit, drink and drive and gotten away with it, so the next time we're thinking we can do it again...only takes once to die from it...at the same time you could do it everyday for the rest of your life and never die from it you just don't know. The smart guy says not taking the chance, the young kid who isn't thinking long term doesn't think past today in most cases.

[mikeymike]

(04-10-2012 02:25 AM)houston Wrote:  

I'm a skinny guy. Can I take them to help me put on some weight quickly, get off them and keep that weight? Or will it fall off as soon as I stop them?

If you're skinny you can progress a huge margin without touching them right now. As for what you lose as I said before depends on what you take and how you come off and what you're like when you're off. I would advise fixing your diet and getting that shit in order, you could probably add 15-20 pounds of clean muscle in a year if you just ate right. Steroids aren't going anywhere but rush into them and you're asking for things like potential injury, the start of an expensive habit (like i wrote earlier, one cycle tends to become a lot of cycles and once you're into that you're at risk for being on hrt for the rest of your life) just no sense to rush in till your body needs them. If you're not fairly solid and big natural you're not ready.

[billy]

(04-09-2012 07:45 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 02:08 PM)billy Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 07:11 AM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

i just cant see why young people want to use drugs and put their health at risk and fuck with their endocrine system to get an inch on their arms to try and impress sluts...

when it can be done naturally with good diet and hard training

the part you miss is that it canot be done naturally for many , I wish I had done this 2 years ago as the last years of training for me were a waste if time, why spend so long to achieve nothing when you can do so much in such a short amount of time with some juice. The only positive for me about wating so long was if I had hit the juice earlier I never would have had such a strong incentive to stop smoking and drinking.

what a load of shit. I'm as big a gear advocate as you'll find but in the right hands...the level that guys can achieve naturally will blow your mind and most of us aren't anywhere close...it's not that many cannot do it naturally it's that doing it naturally is hard work, you have to put in huge amounts of time, you have to be meticulous with your diet, you have to get enough rest, you have to learn what makes your body tick and react and adjust accordingly...that's hard...what's not hard is taking enough gear that you can have loads of cheat days, lift light, join your buddies for beers and wings every weekend, and club 3 nights week and achieve in 3-4 months what a natural guy would battle to gain in over a year. It's not that it can't be done but guys don't want to do it. All the whiners I see complaining about being hardgainers meanwhile they're full on 1000 cals a day wondering how they don't get bigger, or the slow metabolism fat boy crowd eating 3 big macs wondering why their hour on the treadmill isn't paying off. If you're not near your potential and you're on gear so be it, to each their own, but at least admit it's cause you wanted a shortcut and not try to fill us with stories of how it just couldn't happen any other way.

To be fair you know fuck all about any individuals genetic maximums and you know fuck all about how much efffort I put into my diet and training, I stopped smoking drinking eating bread and all sorts of other shit to maximise my potential and it did fuck all my max squat was still only 320lbs and that was with eating a fuck load of food every day. Thats pretty annoying when you watch a lazy part time trainer walk in on occasion and squat 400lbs. I KNOW that my training had stopped going anywhere and I was getting weaker not stronger so I made a choice to do somthing about it, I don't whine about stuff I deal with it. Its like that bollocks that anyone get get a six pack, thats complete shit and there is fuck all healthy about having 5% body fat for most people anyway.

[mikeymike]

(04-10-2012 05:45 PM)billy Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 07:45 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 02:08 PM)billy Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 07:11 AM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

i just cant see why young people want to use drugs and put their health at risk and fuck with their endocrine system to get an inch on their arms to try and impress sluts...

when it can be done naturally with good diet and hard training

the part you miss is that it canot be done naturally for many , I wish I had done this 2 years ago as the last years of training for me were a waste if time, why spend so long to achieve nothing when you can do so much in such a short amount of time with some juice. The only positive for me about wating so long was if I had hit the juice earlier I never would have had such a strong incentive to stop smoking and drinking.

what a load of shit. I'm as big a gear advocate as you'll find but in the right hands...the level that guys can achieve naturally will blow your mind and most of us aren't anywhere close...it's not that many cannot do it naturally it's that doing it naturally is hard work, you have to put in huge amounts of time, you have to be meticulous with your diet, you have to get enough rest, you have to learn what makes your body tick and react and adjust accordingly...that's hard...what's not hard is taking enough gear that you can have loads of cheat days, lift light, join your buddies for beers and wings every weekend, and club 3 nights week and achieve in 3-4 months what a natural guy would battle to gain in over a year. It's not that it can't be done but guys don't want to do it. All the whiners I see complaining about being hardgainers meanwhile they're full on 1000 cals a day wondering how they don't get bigger, or the slow metabolism fat boy crowd eating 3 big macs wondering why their hour on the treadmill isn't paying off. If you're not near your potential and you're on gear so be it, to each their own, but at least admit it's cause you wanted a shortcut and not try to fill us with stories of how it just couldn't happen any other way.

To be fair you know fuck all about any individuals genetic maximums and you know fuck all about how much efffort I put into my diet and training, I stopped smoking drinking eating bread and all sorts of other shit to maximise my potential and it did fuck all my max squat was still only 320lbs and that was with eating a fuck load of food every day. Thats pretty annoying when you watch a lazy part time trainer walk in on occasion and squat 400lbs. I KNOW that my training had stopped going anywhere and I was getting weaker not stronger so I made a choice to do somthing about it, I don't whine about stuff I deal with it. Its like that bollocks that anyone get get a six pack, thats complete shit and there is fuck all healthy about having 5% body fat for most people anyway.

Congrats on the quitting drinking and smoking... I don't know about how much effort you put in but judging from the previous posts we've been back in forth in regarding hormones you weren't educated then and I'm doubting you had the in depth knowledge to formulate a proper diet plan, dropping bread while trying to push heavy weights around is for example dumb, little things you say give you away and make me think that while you may believe there was no other course for ya that there was, you just were tired of it taking so long and seeing guys do it easier than you... I'll leave it there I don't wanna get into a pissing match with ya, you may have had natural growth room left but you sound convinced you've done enough which I'll take to mean you have some sort of base and that's better than most, bust it at the gym bro, don't let the gear be a sub for hard work, if they work great half assed, imagine what they'll do for someone busting it...they feed off protein, feed the machine, don't be afraid of carbs, get big, enjoy the ride and be safe.

[Hades]

Yeah dude, using roids to gain and blaming bad genetics is a bad idea definitely. Most of the really strong and muscular guys take years to build up to any decent level. I have been lifting for four months very consistently and have only put on maybe twelve pounds of muscle. I've added roughly 120 pounds to my deadlift, and maybe forty pounds to my bench. More than happy with these gains though. I'm a hard gainer but I enjoy going to the gym and it pays more dividends than sitting on your ass.

[rudebwoy]

(04-10-2012 01:39 AM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 10:48 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

[said no more, funny enough he died in Thailand.

His death was caused by a combination of ALL the drugs he was taking, I meant the coke/mdma/clen mix probably set him over the edge. This is probably what caused his heart to be enlarged.
There is no evidence that steroids alone will kill you.

yep there it is...the old it was something else...love it.

your right there is no evidence BECAUSE YOU DON'T DIE FROM INJECTING STEROIDS...you die from the health implcations they cause. So death can not be directly attributed to it and it never will.

lets try and think of some famous people...

Sonny Schmidt died at 46
Scott Klein died at 30
Ron Teufel died at 45
Dan Duchaine died at 48
Mohammed Benaziza died at 28
Andreas Munzer died at 30
Mike Mentzer died at 49
Ray Mentzer died at 47
Don Ross died at 55
Dr. John Tristany died
Don Peters died
Ray Raridon died
Luke Mr. Perfect
Ravishing Rick Rude
british bulldog
louie spiccoli
brian pillman
Chris Candido
Junkyard Dog
Hercules
Big John Studd
Hawk (from legion of doom)
Crash Holly
eddie geurrero
Vivian Vachon
Terry Gordywood died at 32
Luke wood died at 32 kidney failure
Zyzzz died at 22 heart
Gino Hernandez - 29
Jay Youngblood - 30
Rick McGraw - 30
Joey Marella - 30
Ed Gatner - 31
Buzz Sawyer - 32
Crash Holly - 32
Kerry Von Erich - 33
D.J. Peterson - 33
Eddie Gilbert - 33
The Renegade - 33
Chris Candido - 33
Adrian Adonis - 34
Gary Albright - 34
Bobby Duncum Jr. - 34
Big Dick Dudley - 34
Marianna Komlos - 35
Pitbull #2 - 36
The Wall/Malice - 36
Emory Hale - 36
Leroy Brown - 38
Mark Curtis - 38
John Kronus - 38
Johnny Grunge - 39


Dennis Newman (leukemia)
Orville Burke (coma)
Don Long (kidney failure)
Tom Prince (kidney failure)
Flex Wheeler (kidney transplant)
Tom Prince (kidney failure)
Ed Corney (stroke)
Boyer Coe (heart)
Danny Padilla (heart)
Pete Grymkowski (heart)
Mike Martarazzo 39 (triple bypass heart surgery)
Arnold-heart surgery

thats all i can think of right now

steroids had nothing to do with any of these guys dying young or their health complications.... there is no evidence.

Interfering with your brain chemistry and HPTA loop with synthetic compounds is good for you.

You seem to be very passionate about this subject but yet you are speculating. You put a list together with a bunch of wrestler's who have died, yet you do not know the lifestyles they were leading.
As someone who had a friend in the industry (wrestling) I can tell you there is alot of recreational drug use going on, I look at your list and names like Adrian Adonis/Buzz Sawyer come to mind.
These were guys that partied hard and died hard, why didn't you mention all the wrestlers that have died at a young age?
As you rightly said most of them are on painkillers which as you know can be more addictive than steroids and harmful.

Have you tried the stuff first hand to know what it does? Or you are just regurgitating what the media tells you!

Do you realize that pharmaceutical drugs kill more people than steroids, like cigarettes and alcohol the government makes billions of it so there is not the outcry.

[rudebwoy]

Oh and one more thing, you are an IDIOT. Adrian Adonis died in a car crash.

[garygroundwork]

(04-10-2012 07:28 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Oh and one more thing, you are an IDIOT. Adrian Adonis died in a car crash.

yeah IM an idiot. lol. I got one wrong in a huge list.

I would argue that pro-steroid individuals who continually blame and look for other causes for a persons demise after heavy steroid use are in fact idiots or individuals that use the argument that steroids can not cause death, however I'm not one to label a person an idiot that I don't know.

I'm not passionate anti-steroids at all. I just have a balanced view. If you read the whole thread you would see that I advocate the use of steroids and HGH. Dismissing the notion that steroids can't lead to serious health implications and death is completely ignorant.

Having a balanced view makes me open minded.

[rudebwoy]

Go over the list carefully, most of the wrestlers died from pharma drugs NOT steroids. The main reason probably being after suffering too many bumps in the ring and becoming addicted to painkillers.

Well you seem to have changed your stance, I thought you said steroids kill.

I would not advocate the use of ALL steroids and people love to talk about taking HGH like it is tylenol. HGH is a very hard chemical on the body and personally something I would not advise.

[mikeymike]

(04-12-2012 09:29 PM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

(04-10-2012 07:28 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Oh and one more thing, you are an IDIOT. Adrian Adonis died in a car crash.

yeah IM an idiot. lol. I got one wrong in a huge list.

I would argue that pro-steroid individuals who continually blame and look for other causes for a persons demise after heavy steroid use are in fact idiots or individuals that use the argument that steroids can not cause death, however I'm not one to label a person an idiot that I don't know.

I'm not passionate anti-steroids at all. I just have a balanced view. If you read the whole thread you would see that I advocate the use of steroids and HGH. Dismissing the notion that steroids can't lead to serious health implications and death is completely ignorant.

Having a balanced view makes me open minded.

You may indeed have an open mind on this but the way you come across appears otherwise in this thread...

I don't think I've ignored steroids contributions to health issues, all of it is connected. You do years upon years of heavy steroids your body is going to have issues, make you prone to other healthy issues, could mess up your liver your kidney and so on, those are facts and can't be disputed but you have to factor in what else contributed to these deaths. It's a sad fact that most guys who end up abusing steroids are just addictive by nature and abused other things, many worse...the combination adds up. Steroids are part of the package but take a wrestler who is living on painkillers and Ais and tell me that guy isn't going to die whether steroids are in that mix or not? Abuse steroids for a long time alone and don't mix you'll end up in the ground quicker but don't abuse them, use them sparingly, a cycle a year type thing moderate doses it more than likely never cause your body any harm... So when you come out throwing up a list like that and it shows the 2 worst extremes of the steroid user and saying these are dangerous look at these guys, it's fear mongering as I said, most users aren't going anywhere near the doses these guys do for as long as they do, mix as they do... Facts are also that doctors have guys on hgh for longevity, health improvement, anti aging world wide, guys are put on trt doses for life to combat low test levels, these things in moderation have proven to be life enhancing...you abuse most drugs bad enough side effects will occur, steroid or otherwise... butif you're going to play on the dark side with gear, moderation is key, precautions are a must and blood tests and monitoring all part of it.

[mikeymike]

(04-12-2012 11:44 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I would not advocate the use of ALL steroids and people love to talk about taking HGH like it is tylenol. HGH is a very hard chemical on the body and personally something I would not advise.

interesting take how is it hard on the body, I believe it to be better long term on the body, again in moderation than steroids would be.

[TopRock]

There is a lot of BS in this thread. That "death list" is ridiculous. If you don't know the difference between a steroid and a diuretic, please STFU and go troll on bodybuilding.com

If you actually want to learn about this stuff, start at t-nation.com That place has a lot of good info, but they still make money peddling supplements (use some logic: if those "supplements" worked, they would be banned as performance-enhancing drugs by WADA).

I haven't yet used anabolic steroids, but I was a competitive powerlifter for a few years in the IPF. Also lived in Los Angeles, had a lot of bodybuilder and USPF and WPC (non-testing) buddies. Some of these people have been using steroids for almost thirty years with no ill effects. Others have reached top levels in the non-drug testing federations and don't juice at all.

Steroids aren't the problem, morons are. And unfortunately the morons also work for WADA and the IOC. The amount of BS, paranoia, and slander that lifters in the IPF have to put up with is ridiculous. Lifters pay for their own drug tests, and are still accused of juicing behind their backs. Then there is the issue of WADA taking on the role of moral police: "performance-enhancing" substances like cannabis(!) and cocaine will both get you suspended. It happens all the time. WADA is ruining amateur strength sports, and ignorant reactions from people who can't tell insulin from testosterone is helping them do it.

Don't become one of these morons. Please educate yourself instead of spreading lies and rumors on the internet.