Quote: (01-18-2015 01:56 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist

How many human jaws or skulls do you hit full-force in your karate training sesions?

Quote: (01-19-2015 02:31 AM)germanico Wrote:  

Quote: (01-18-2015 01:56 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist

How many human jaws or skulls do you hit full-force in your karate training sesions?

There is nothing stopping you from hitting human jaws and skulls tomorrow. That doesn't mean you are a skilled fighter.

Tomorrow not today. Doing a bunch of push ups with your fists or hitting a bag without gloves isnt going to stop you from breaking your fingerbones tomorrow either.

Quote: (01-19-2015 03:13 AM)germanico Wrote:  

Tomorrow not today. Doing a bunch of push ups with your fists or hitting a bag without gloves isnt going to stop you from breaking your fingerbones tomorrow either.

The Karate punch contacts its target only through the first two knuckles with the wrist level and the thumb tucked in tightly. So you are never going to hit anything with your fingers and thumb, and your wrist will never be in a twisted formation. This takes control and practice. If you wear a glove, you will never get this practice or know how to do it. With a glove, you may actually be hitting someone with your thumb, but the force distributes through the glove so you can get away with it. That is why boxers wrap their hands.

In boxing, we also aim to land with the first two knuckles, except I was taught to angle the hand very slightly down, and very slightly outwards, which lines the knuckles up directly in front of the wrist bone, and feels really stable. Another tip I got from a video by a Mike McCallum trained fighter on the Sherdog forums, was to close the smaller fingers first and to close them tighter, so that the first two knuckles protrude more. Even though in a glove you can't completely close the fist, nor do you want to until impact, but you can still form a semi tight fist in the same way.

However while we're taught to punch that way, in reality when you have a moving target, and we're trying to punch around elbows etc., obviously we're not always going to land perfectly with the first two knuckles, which is one of the reasons we have hand wraps and gloves (I remember reading that this actually developed so that fights can last longer and be better for spectators, as bare knuckle fights wouldn't last very long as hands would be broken, and the facial cuts would be too severe).

Your theory sounds nice, but is nothing like reality.

Quote: (01-19-2015 04:57 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

In boxing, we also aim to land with the first two knuckles, except I was taught to angle the hand very slightly down, and very slightly outwards, which lines the knuckles up directly in front of the wrist bone, and feels really stable. Another tip I got from a video by a Mike McCallum trained fighter on the Sherdog forums, was to close the smaller fingers first and to close them tighter, so that the first two knuckles protrude more. Even though in a glove you can't completely close the fist, nor do you want to until impact, but you can still form a semi tight fist in the same way.

However while we're taught to punch that way, in reality when you have a moving target, and we're trying to punch around elbows etc., obviously we're not always going to land perfectly with the first two knuckles, which is one of the reasons we have hand wraps and gloves (I remember reading that this actually developed so that fights can last longer and be better for spectators, as bare knuckle fights wouldn't last very long as hands would be broken, and the facial cuts would be too severe).

Your theory sounds nice, but is nothing like reality.

I agree with most of what you said, but am not sure what you meant by "nothing like reality". Karate practitioners are able to break bricks and boards using the first two knuckles. If the control wasn't accurate they would cause permanent injure to their hands. The Karate stance also makes it easily possible during a fight. In fact, in the more advanced moves, Karate has a round house punch where you can land a punch to the side of your opponents head, with the wrist square and using the two knuckles. There is also an "empi" punch where you swing your fist upwards connecting under your opponents chin, with your wrist level and connecting with the two knuckles.

^^ Aren't those practitioners who break those boards/bricks allowed time to prepare for the blow? Meaning it always seems like they are allowed as much time as needed to rehearse before hitting it. When do you get that chance in a real fight? "Hold on a second, I need about 30 seconds to prepare my death blow."

My experience of the people commenting on boxing is one of sharing information. However, you seem to be coming from a place of how much better your choice of self defense is superior to anything else. Which can never be proven. But you seem dead set on making sure that whatever you have invested time in is superior to protect your ego. I thought martial arts was to teach you not to have an ego, not to engage in unnecessary "confrontations", etc.

Anyway here is a guy breaking some bricks using a towel to protect his hand.

People who practice breaking shit with their arms, hands or head are like the shadow boxers you see in the gyms near you.

The difference being is Mr Shadowboxer won't have severe arthritis come his 40s or earlier.

All plans go out the window once you get hit in the face. Look up how many boxers train for years, have highly conditioned bodies and yet fall like a fat sack of shit once they take a good hit to their glass chin.

Or failing that, the solar plexus, your knee, your throat.

When I finish this Martial Arts datasheet the debating is going to get ugly.

Quote: (01-19-2015 11:20 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

Quote: (01-19-2015 04:57 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

In boxing, we also aim to land with the first two knuckles, except I was taught to angle the hand very slightly down, and very slightly outwards, which lines the knuckles up directly in front of the wrist bone, and feels really stable. Another tip I got from a video by a Mike McCallum trained fighter on the Sherdog forums, was to close the smaller fingers first and to close them tighter, so that the first two knuckles protrude more. Even though in a glove you can't completely close the fist, nor do you want to until impact, but you can still form a semi tight fist in the same way.

However while we're taught to punch that way, in reality when you have a moving target, and we're trying to punch around elbows etc., obviously we're not always going to land perfectly with the first two knuckles, which is one of the reasons we have hand wraps and gloves (I remember reading that this actually developed so that fights can last longer and be better for spectators, as bare knuckle fights wouldn't last very long as hands would be broken, and the facial cuts would be too severe).

Your theory sounds nice, but is nothing like reality.

I agree with most of what you said, but am not sure what you meant by "nothing like reality". Karate practitioners are able to break bricks and boards using the first two knuckles. If the control wasn't accurate they would cause permanent injure to their hands. The Karate stance also makes it easily possible during a fight. In fact, in the more advanced moves, Karate has a round house punch where you can land a punch to the side of your opponents head, with the wrist square and using the two knuckles. There is also an "empi" punch where you swing your fist upwards connecting under your opponents chin, with your wrist level and connecting with the two knuckles.

I mean that in practice you will not be able to land with the first two knuckles at all times.

Quote: (01-19-2015 11:45 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  

^^ Aren't those practitioners who break those boards/bricks allowed time to prepare for the blow? Meaning it always seems like they are allowed as much time as needed to rehearse before hitting it. When do you get that chance in a real fight? "Hold on a second, I need about 30 seconds to prepare my death blow."

My experience of the people commenting on boxing is one of sharing information. However, you seem to be coming from a place of how much better your choice of self defense is superior to anything else. Which can never be proven. But you seem dead set on making sure that whatever you have invested time in is superior to protect your ego. I thought martial arts was to teach you not to have an ego, not to engage in unnecessary "confrontations", etc.

Anyway here is a guy breaking some bricks using a towel to protect his hand.

I was actually responding to the spirit of this thread which started out with a shameful video of an American con artist posing as a Karate master and the implication that karate is - as a result - "ego delusion" and some commented that boxing is somehow more realistic. So, I offer a specific example - "fighting with empty hand" to show that Karate is a realistic self defense. My intent is not to show that boxing is inferior. Boxing is a great sport. There is nothing wrong with sport but sports have rules and necessary protective gear, and it shouldn't be confused with self defense.

TMA troll. New RVF troll.

Karate doesn't have rules? But you can't hit each other in the face. Isnt that a rule? Can you eye gouge your training partners? Can you bite them? Isn't there some rules? And if so, doesn't that then prove, using your logic, that it isn't realistic?

If you don't punch to the face. Don't spar fully resisting opponents. Don't get punched in the face. How is that realistic? In real life self defense situations do people not get punched in the face? Or punch people in the face?

Can you please show us a video of how you train so we can see the realism you are talking about. I think that will help prove your point much better. Surely there has to be some videos on YouTube of karate practitioners training in what you consider to be "real".

Can you link a couple here so the rest of us can see what it is we are not understanding?

@Sherman
It's pretty hard to explain the different schools/styles of Karate training to people that have almost to no way of seeing it in action. In Japan and other parts of Asia, open weight bare knuckle karate fighting is not always open to the public. Some of it is underground even today. Some even go the K1 or MMA route, like your boy Lyoto Machida.

Over time some Karate practitioners have discovered the external aspect of Iron Fist and Iron Palm techniques that the Chinese knew for thousands of years. Karate is purely external. Just like Muay Thai. Punching over and over barefisted makes their fists very dangerous, just like the low roundhouse kicks of Muay Thai. Repeated punches and kicks cause small fractures. These small fractures, once healed cause the calcium to fill into those fractures and breaks making them even harder than the spot the original bone was.

Anyone know any hardened Muay Thai Veterans and ever look at their legs? Ever see those large bumps on their shins? That's what I am talking about. Sometimes people see the large one on my right leg and think it's gross. At first I hated it, I love it now. It's good intimidation in the gym/dojo We also tend to have ugly looking calloused feet.

If you look very closely you can see 2 of those on this MT fighter's shin bone. The skin on his foot is rough looking too. This photo looks like Tony Jaa, just found it on google and had the best example of calcium deposits, something that is hard to find online for some strange reason.


Gong Fu Master, Pan Fu is world famous for his Iron Fist callouses and calcium deposits on his hands. He can punch a concrete floor and crack it up. If he punched someone in the face, their skull would shatter easily. Check out his fist.



Karate guys, depending upon the school or master they trained under will attempt to get somewhere near Master Pan's level. Some have elbows like this. A level that is very very dangerous streetfight or sportfighting. Lyoto Machida made a good living knocking guys out with that Karate punch. He trained barefisted for a long long time. It wasn't until guys started watching his film and timing his counters, were they able to finally stop him from getting KOs in the UFC. Lyoto brought to the mainstream something people in the hardcore side of Martial Arts knew about Karate for a very long time.

The only downside of Iron Fist or external hardening is that you cannot do it forever. The Average Muay Thai fighter lasts around 5 years competitively. Hardcore Karate guys get nasty arthritis problems all over various body parts. Master Pan Fu is a huge exception, but look at how hideous his hands are. That shit would scare away more pussy than the biggest beta or omega male you know. He uses special Chinese herbal medicine everyday on his hands just to keep them from shutting on him like a clam.

Also, yes boxers break their hands or fingers in fights outside the gym. MMA guys do it too. I have personally had 3 of my fighters get into fights outside the gym and fucked up their hands like that. If you do not train for barefist fighting, you are not automatically going to break something, but the chance is higher. Your wrists are probably more likely to be sprained if anything. We all wrap our wrists tight with Mexican style wraps or custom ones. Not all Karate people wrap fists and wrists.

I have no way of knowing for sure or not, but I long suspected Anderson Silva trained barefisted in some capacity. I lost an opportunity to talk with him because his aunt had died at the time and he cancelled, but it is either that, he learned internal strength, or his was just a physical freak. Oh well.

In the end, bangs are what matter most.
To bang you need to be alive and not in prison.
Fighting by choice in non life or death situations (by my estimation 99.9% of fights in general, and 100% of bar fights) is completely unnecessary and does not increase your number of bangs. It can cause death or imprisonment. I know someone who died in Peru because they didn't want to give up a 20 dollar hat and rumbled with some street kids, one of whom stabbed him in the back. He was a martial artist and bodybuilder and wasn't going to take shit from anyone.
Unless you have inner game issues to sort out, I think the time spent learning a martial art is better spent learning dance or a musical instrument or something, both of which lead to bangs. Of course, you should be lifting and doing cardio too.
I guess there is a social benefit to some of the martial arts as people (I think Fisto) have mentioned on RVF, so I guess that is something to weigh too...but again I think that can be gotten in different ways.
For self defense, carry a gun and know how and when to use it (center mass, shoot to kill, not to be used to threaten or warn).
Just my opinion, I respect the people who might disagree.

Quote: (01-20-2015 09:21 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

In the end, bangs are what matter most.
To bang you need to be alive and not in prison.
Fighting by choice in non life or death situations (by my estimation 99.9% of fights in general, and 100% of bar fights) is completely unnecessary and does not increase your number of bangs. It can cause death or imprisonment. I know someone who died in Peru because they didn't want to give up a 20 dollar hat and rumbled with some street kids, one of whom stabbed him in the back. He was a martial artist and bodybuilder and wasn't going to take shit from anyone.
Unless you have inner game issues to sort out, I think the time spent learning a martial art is better spent learning dance or a musical instrument or something, both of which lead to bangs. Of course, you should be lifting and doing cardio too.
I guess there is a social benefit to some of the martial arts as people (I think Fisto) have mentioned on RVF, so I guess that is something to weigh too...but again I think that can be gotten in different ways.
For self defense, carry a gun and know how and when to use it (center mass, shoot to kill, not to be used to threaten or warn).
Just my opinion, I respect the people who might disagree.

What is this garbage? Bangs are all that matter in life? You must really be young or a slave to pussy. Bangs are just a small part of life. If all you did was center your life around pussy, then what would you do once you could no longer have access to it? Same thing applies to work. You work to live, not live to work. All these things are a means to an end. Martial Arts is self improvement. Something that increases your quality of life, health, and well being (mentally, emotionally, and physically). Pussy won't do that.

Why are you trolling this thread with this bs? There is another thread to discuss whether or not Martial Arts is a waste of time and dancing is better.

Not trolling, and please don't put words in my mouth. I also ended my post by saying I respected other opinions on the matter.
Big difference between saying what I said - "what matters most" and what you portrayed me as saying " all that matter in life"
Just because pussy is the most important, doesn't mean that other things aren't also important to me.

Also, pussy doesn't improve quality of life???? Sorry, but I'm going to have disagree on that one.

Quote: (01-20-2015 09:21 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

In the end, bangs are what matter most.
To bang you need to be alive and not in prison.
Fighting by choice in non life or death situations (by my estimation 99.9% of fights in general, and 100% of bar fights) is completely unnecessary and does not increase your number of bangs. It can cause death or imprisonment. I know someone who died in Peru because they didn't want to give up a 20 dollar hat and rumbled with some street kids, one of whom stabbed him in the back. He was a martial artist and bodybuilder and wasn't going to take shit from anyone.
Unless you have inner game issues to sort out, I think the time spent learning a martial art is better spent learning dance or a musical instrument or something, both of which lead to bangs. Of course, you should be lifting and doing cardio too.
I guess there is a social benefit to some of the martial arts as people (I think Fisto) have mentioned on RVF, so I guess that is something to weigh too...but again I think that can be gotten in different ways.
For self defense, carry a gun and know how and when to use it (center mass, shoot to kill, not to be used to threaten or warn).
Just my opinion, I respect the people who might disagree.

Two of the best fighters I know were both in prison - both far superior genetics and hardened by hundreds of street fights. While those fights still adhered to certain rules people lost eyes and limbs occasionally. In both cases those guys I know hurt someone badly or one even killed a man during a fight. He did not intend to do so, but that's what happens if you engage in that kind of risky behavior.

Only in superhero comics does Batman or Spiderman not hurt the criminals - in reality they would shatter bones and rip them apart with bare hands just by accident alone.

   

In my opinion almost all Combat styles are Alpha training grounds and practically all men should at least learn some self-defense basics as you gain a lot as a man. But avoiding fights is always the wise man's choice even if you are Superman and cannot get hurt yourself. The drunk you beat up in a bar-fight might have a kid and family to support.

My grandfather was an in-action Boston cop, and my great-grandfather on my dad's side was an Irish bare-knuckle boxer.

My grandfather has had knives pulled on him and been attacked several times. He said to me "don't bother with that Asian bullshit. All that pirouetting and flailing around should stay in the movies. Learn how to throw a punch and how to take out his knees. That's it."

My great-grandfather had similar advice, although he also instructed me to execute my opponents when I when I was finished. Probably shouldn't listen to that piece of advice if I want to keep my asshole only a few millimeters wide.

The only time my life has been in danger is when a friend who I later learned had severe psychiatric issues pulled a knife on me. I basically just grabbed his hand and wrestled the knife out. Probably wouldn't work with a stronger guy, though.

My uncle is a black belt in some discipline (I don't remember) and still has a bodyguard whenever he goes into a dangerous area in Mexico.

I think the point is, KISS. If you want to work out, that's one thing. But don't pretend your glorified ballet is some master solution to all problems. Get a gun and knife, and if things get really hairy, just learn how to throw a bunch and take out his knees.

My training in wing chun has given me the confidence to stand up to people and not fear for my life when my Spidey senses start tingling.

We practice full contact sparring and even though we practice control with our punches, kicks, palm strikes etc etc, someone always gets hurt.

The worst injury anyone of my classmates has experienced when sparring with my sifu is a busted lip or bloody nose.
Sifu says you can not train properly if you think you're not going to get hit.

My kung fu is adaptable to the streets but since I've started training I've never been in a fight again. I'm not a large or intimidating guy so I get picked on pretty often and knowing how to defend myself gives me the confidence to stand up for myself and not take any shit from anyone.

Quote: (01-20-2015 09:21 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

In the end, bangs are what matter most.
To bang you need to be alive and not in prison.
Fighting by choice in non life or death situations (by my estimation 99.9% of fights in general, and 100% of bar fights) is completely unnecessary and does not increase your number of bangs. It can cause death or imprisonment. I know someone who died in Peru because they didn't want to give up a 20 dollar hat and rumbled with some street kids, one of whom stabbed him in the back. He was a martial artist and bodybuilder and wasn't going to take shit from anyone.
Unless you have inner game issues to sort out, I think the time spent learning a martial art is better spent learning dance or a musical instrument or something, both of which lead to bangs. Of course, you should be lifting and doing cardio too.
I guess there is a social benefit to some of the martial arts as people (I think Fisto) have mentioned on RVF, so I guess that is something to weigh too...but again I think that can be gotten in different ways.
For self defense, carry a gun and know how and when to use it (center mass, shoot to kill, not to be used to threaten or warn).
Just my opinion, I respect the people who might disagree.

Understandable. But what would you do if you were ever attacked? Run away? I'm not advocating killing or putting people in the hospital but you do need to learn how to defend yourself. Of course use common sense in situations (i.e. guy has a gun or has five of his boys with him). You talk about scoring pussy. Well, no chick is gonna want a man who cant defend or stand up for himself, or is the bitch amongsts his peers. I knew a guy I was stationed with who took constant abuse from one of his shipmates until they wrestled in the berthing area (which is the sleeping quarters on a Coast Guard ship) and he wound up owning him. I knew of another situation where an old co-worker of mine got confronted by a guy because he wanted his girl. He was able to talk him out of a fight but not before letting him know he was a martial arts instructor and was expert level in his art (it was some Filipino martial art don't remember what it was) and that he could've easily crippled him.

And I will say you shouldn't take up martial arts to impress girls. Than in of itself will not work. But your self confidence will increase which WILL attract girls.

Quote: (01-20-2015 09:21 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

In the end, bangs are what matter most.
To bang you need to be alive and not in prison.
Fighting by choice in non life or death situations (by my estimation 99.9% of fights in general, and 100% of bar fights) is completely unnecessary and does not increase your number of bangs. It can cause death or imprisonment. I know someone who died in Peru because they didn't want to give up a 20 dollar hat and rumbled with some street kids, one of whom stabbed him in the back. He was a martial artist and bodybuilder and wasn't going to take shit from anyone.
Unless you have inner game issues to sort out, I think the time spent learning a martial art is better spent learning dance or a musical instrument or something, both of which lead to bangs. Of course, you should be lifting and doing cardio too.
I guess there is a social benefit to some of the martial arts as people (I think Fisto) have mentioned on RVF, so I guess that is something to weigh too...but again I think that can be gotten in different ways.
For self defense, carry a gun and know how and when to use it (center mass, shoot to kill, not to be used to threaten or warn).
Just my opinion, I respect the people who might disagree.

As someone who legally carries a gun most of the time, I gotta say this is pretty bad advice.

Knowing a martial art will help you retain control of that gun in a close quarters situation and deal with minor threats that don't require lethal force.

Furthermore, punching someone's lights out is going to carry far less of a legal risk than shooting them in the chest. If you kill someone in self-defense with a gun, even if it's completely justified, you're looking at some jail time until they figure out what the hell happened and thousands of dollars in legal fees. Depending on where you live and the DA's politics, the state could choose to royally fuck you. Even if they don't get a conviction, the process is the punishment.

That's not even taking into account the possibility of violent retaliation from their associates inside or outside prison. No matter how much of a badass you are, that's always a legitimate concern.






The guy in the video above survived and won several gunfights with criminals but was ultimately chased out of his store by gangs.

It's always best to avoid stupid people and stupid places, but sometimes stupid people find you whether you like it or not. Being ready for that possibility is important.

That being said, a gun alone is not the complete and total answer because not every violent action justifies a lethal response.

Quote: (01-20-2015 12:58 PM)MdWanderer Wrote:  

Understandable. But what would you do if you were ever attacked? Run away? I'm not advocating killing or putting people in the hospital but you do need to learn how to defend yourself. Of course use common sense in situations (i.e. guy has a gun or has five of his boys with him). You talk about scoring pussy. Well, no chick is gonna want a man who cant defend or stand up for himself, or is the bitch amongsts his peers. I knew a guy I was stationed with who took constant abuse from one of his shipmates until they wrestled in the berthing area (which is the sleeping quarters on a Coast Guard ship) and he wound up owning him. I knew of another situation where an old co-worker of mine got confronted by a guy because he wanted his girl. He was able to talk him out of a fight but not before letting him know he was a martial arts instructor and was expert level in his art (it was some Filipino martial art don't remember what it was) and that he could've easily crippled him.

And I will say you shouldn't take up martial arts to impress girls. Than in of itself will not work. But your self confidence will increase which WILL attract girls.

The vast majority of fights or assaults can be avoided by you walking away instead of escalating, or if it's a robbery by handing over your wallet (in Latin America I carried a decoy wallet with expired cards and minimal cash for just this purpose).
The situation where you are attacked and have no other alternative is pretty damn rare. In that unlikely case I would defend myself by any and all means necessary, after first making a reasonable attempt to flee. If I was in the USA and had my gun, then I would not hesitate to use lethal force.
If I didn't I would improvise...I might do something like feign weakness/cry, beg for mercy, gain the element of surprise and then make a sudden attack with anything available...perhaps break a bit of glass and shove it someone's neck/face.
Again, in that unlikely scenario where there was no option but force, I would use maximum force suddenly and decisively, with the purpose to seriously injure or kill the person(s) attacking me.
Also, you don't need to fight to gain respect from your shipmates or whatever, you need to be in shape, carry yourself well, and not give off the vibe of being a pussy. I guess if you have put yourself in a position where people see you as a weak link/bitch, fighting might be a way to dig yourself out of the hole.
If you got picked on in grade school/middle school/high school it was because of your body language and attitude, not because you didn't know Judo. Although like you said, confidence is key to a lot of things, and if martial arts is someone's preferred way to build their confidence, I can see how it makes sense.
For me it comes down to a question of outcomes.
If I manage to avoid a fight/assault, my chance of success (not going to prison, not being dead) is 100%.
Anytime violence enters into the equation, it becomes a crapshoot with many unknowable variables, and the chance of success drops considerably.

Quote: (01-20-2015 01:25 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

As someone who legally carries a gun most of the time, I gotta say this is pretty bad advice.

Knowing a martial art will help you retain control of that gun in a close quarters situation and deal with minor threats that don't require lethal force.

Furthermore, punching someone's lights out is going to carry far less of a legal risk than shooting them in the chest. If you kill someone in self-defense with a gun, even if it's completely justified, you're looking at some jail time until they figure out what the hell happened and thousands of dollars in legal fees. Depending on where you live and the DA's politics, the state could choose to royally fuck you. Even if they don't get a conviction, the process is the punishment.

That's not even taking into account the possibility of violent retaliation from their associates inside or outside prison. No matter how much of a badass you are, that's always a legitimate concern.

The guy in the video above survived and won several gunfights with criminals but was ultimately chased out of his store by gangs.

It's always best to avoid stupid people and stupid places, but sometimes stupid people find you whether you like it or not. Being ready for that possibility is important.

That being said, a gun alone is not the complete and total answer because not every violent action justifies a lethal response.

My general point is that unless you are in a situation where a lethal response is justifiable, chances are it isn't an extreme situation where you have no choice, so your best bet is to try and defuse it or to walk away.
Depending on the situation, killing someone is far better than wounding them - no word but yours. As long as you have a reasonable fear for your life you are in the clear.

Quote: (01-20-2015 03:23 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

My general point is that unless you are in a situation where a lethal response is justifiable, chances are it isn't an extreme situation where you have no choice, so your best bet is to try and defuse it or to walk away.
Depending on the situation, killing someone is far better than wounding them - no word but yours. As long as you have a reasonable fear for your life you are in the clear.

If a situation can be safely avoided, it should be.

I don't want to go down the "What If" hypothetical rabbit hole here but I'd like to point out that if you're cornered by some unarmed asshole wanting to throw down and you shoot him, you're gonna be in deep shit. There are situations where you might be forced to punch your way out. Just how it is, so you might as well get proficient at it.

Futhermore, the cops, prosecutors, and possibly a jury determine whether your fear was reasonable or not. Saying you were afraid for your life isn't a magical get out of jail free card.

Learning martial skills, both armed and unarmed, gives you more options than you'd have if you just learned one or the other.

If it's your opinion that dancing's a better investment of your time than learning how to defend yourself, so be it. I don't see why you can't do both.

Anyway, that'll be it for me. Don't want to derail the thread any further.

I took out a whole Cross Fit team....... with CHi