[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(01-20-2015 03:46 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

If a situation can be safely avoided, it should be.

I don't want to go down the "What If" hypothetical rabbit hole here but I'd like to point out that if you're cornered by some unarmed asshole wanting to throw down and you shoot him, you're gonna be in deep shit. There are situations where you might be forced to punch your way out. Just how it is, so you might as well get proficient at it.

Futhermore, the cops, prosecutors, and possibly a jury determine whether your fear was reasonable or not. Saying you were afraid for your life isn't a magical get out of jail free card.

Learning martial skills, both armed and unarmed, gives you more options than you'd have if you just learned one or the other.

If it's your opinion that dancing's a better investment of your time than learning how to defend yourself, so be it. I don't see why you can't do both.

Anyway, that'll be it for me. Don't want to derail the thread any further.

Well, here's a point that I didn't bring up earlier, but that's been on my mind. It goes on the principle that to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
I know that in many cases people learn self control with karate or another martial art.
But, on average, does learning a martial art or boxing make someone less likely to perceive a situation as avoidable?
Basically, does someone think, hey, I don't have to back down or talk my way out, I can handle this with force...?

[TheWastelander]

(01-20-2015 04:43 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(01-20-2015 03:46 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

If a situation can be safely avoided, it should be.

I don't want to go down the "What If" hypothetical rabbit hole here but I'd like to point out that if you're cornered by some unarmed asshole wanting to throw down and you shoot him, you're gonna be in deep shit. There are situations where you might be forced to punch your way out. Just how it is, so you might as well get proficient at it.

Futhermore, the cops, prosecutors, and possibly a jury determine whether your fear was reasonable or not. Saying you were afraid for your life isn't a magical get out of jail free card.

Learning martial skills, both armed and unarmed, gives you more options than you'd have if you just learned one or the other.

If it's your opinion that dancing's a better investment of your time than learning how to defend yourself, so be it. I don't see why you can't do both.

Anyway, that'll be it for me. Don't want to derail the thread any further.

Well, here's a point that I didn't bring up earlier, but that's been on my mind. It goes on the principle that to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
I know that in many cases people learn self control with karate or another martial art.
But, on average, does learning a martial art or boxing make someone less likely to perceive a situation as avoidable?
Basically, does someone think, hey, I don't have to back down or talk my way out, I can handle this with force...?

I can't speak for any of the guys in this thread since I never seriously learned a martial art and stuck with it, but carrying a gun has made me less confrontational with the average moron because of all the consequences of using it. It's a last ditch emergency option in your pocket. You don't even want to be caught fighting some idiot outside the bar with one on you.

I've gotten confrontational with a gas thief a couple years ago who was sneaking around my property and an asshole or two who thought a white boy walking to his car in the middle of the night was an easy target. None of them required the use of force. They can tell by posture, look, and hand gestures when someone's strapped.

Speaking of, every man living in a city in the States should read this:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487...asics.html

[Kieran]

The time investment to become actually proficient enough to handle yourself against large, somewhat athletic, bar brawlers isn't really worth it for the amount of times the average person will be in situations where violence is actually unavoidable. I box for the love of the sport, rather than to be able to handle myself.

I personally believe that good social skills and knowing how to diffuse confrontations is a far more valuable thing to know, and is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. On two different occasions where I thought violence was imminent, I've seen two of my friends diffuse things so well that the instigators ended up acting like long lost friends. Definitely a skill I need to work on, as looking back, a lot of fights I've been in could almost certainly have been avoided, and without losing face.

[WanderingSoul]

Kieran is right. People ask me what is best to train for self defense, and I always tell them whatever you enjoy enough to train 3-4x per week consistently.

I got into MMA to become a badads. But in reality, I've been in one fight in the past handful of years, and it could have been avoided. I stayed in the sport because it's fun and I enjoy doing it. I'm no longer in it to become a badass, which I'm not anyways. Many people I know are the same. Start training so they can fuck people up, and end up maturing/becoming confident enough to where they are rarely in a situation to need to do anyting.

Also, if you don't enjoy it, and only train to become a better fighter, you'll never get good enough to actually defend yourself. You'll drop out in a few months.

It's like lifting weights. If you legitimately do not enjoy it, you'll never build the body you want because it takes a significant amount of time and dedication to reach that level.

[Atticus]

(01-21-2015 05:07 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Kieran is right. People ask me what is best to train for self defense, and I always tell them whatever you enjoy enough to train 3-4x per week consistently.

I got into MMA to become a badads. But in reality, I've been in one fight in the past handful of years, and it could have been avoided. I stayed in the sport because it's fun and I enjoy doing it. I'm no longer in it to become a badass, which I'm not anyways. Many people I know are the same. Start training so they can fuck people up, and end up maturing/becoming confident enough to where they are rarely in a situation to need to do anyting.

Also, if you don't enjoy it, and only train to become a better fighter, you'll never get good enough to actually defend yourself. You'll drop out in a few months.

It's like lifting weights. If you legitimately do not enjoy it, you'll never build the body you want because it takes a significant amount of time and dedication to reach that level.

Spot on! Anyone who has consistently trained in martial arts or combat sports knows the great physical and psychological benefits which flow. I think people who train are the least likely to get into fights, not least because they know full well the potential consequences to themselves should the fight go awry.

Combat sports are a vehicle to becoming a better man, not a thug.

[TutorGuina]

So guys, aside from the self-defense discussion, what do you think is a good way to identify if a gym is a McDojo or legit?
started training MT a week ago but wanted to know if I'm spending my time well. I don't care about being a badass really that much but if I'm going to train something I might aswell do it properly.

From what I've read on this thread a gym for this specific style should train it's students on:
1. pyshical conditioning
2. technique and movement
3. toughness/surviving against strikes

Would it be acceptable to have only two of these covered up? Is any of the three really more important than the rest?
I did improve on my physical shape and I think my strikes are getting better. I still haven't received a full power blow or learnt how to defend well from them, though, which feels bad.

[John Twist]

Question. How does a smaller guy who is naturally small, (hands, arms and short) beat a much larger and taller guy in a street fight.

[Moto]

(12-11-2016 12:34 PM)John Twist Wrote:  

Question. How does a smaller guy who is naturally small, (hands, arms and short) beat a much larger and taller guy in a street fight.

I used to have a lot more delusions when I was a Kung Fu guy, even though I had been a wrestler before that. Now having trained Muay Thai and sparred a lot of bigger guys, I see that even with a lot of martial arts experience it is very hard to beat a pissed off much bigger guy who stops holding anything back and just charges and brawls. Very difficult.

So you gotta avoid if at all possible. The chances are stacked against you, even with superior training. If truly there is no way out, life or death situation (which is very rare) then you use the element of surprise and do viscious things like destroy his eyes, crush or snatch out the wind pipe, smash the groin. All of the above, as fast as possible. You'd have one chance. The Muay Thai elbows, knees, and teeps (push kicks) are also effective when you're being charged by a much larger swinging maniac.

Basically you're fucked, but there is a slight chance if you're surprising and vicious enough. Much better to avoid, and not be deluded into thinking you can take on much bigger and stronger guys (as even I used to think).

[Australia Sucks]

I will throw my two cents worth. I previously trained in Kyokushin Karate for well over ten years under one of the top ranked (by grade) instructors (in Kyokushin) in the world (who himself studied under Mas Oyama) and a few of my other instructors also studied under Mas Oyama. I directly sparred with some guys who competed in world championship tournaments for Kyokushin Karate. I will point out that Mas Oyama trained in boxing and Judo and Karate at different stages of his life when he was younger. For those who do not know Mas Oyama was a legendary Karate practitioner and the founder of Kyokushin Karate.

In Kyokushin a lot of people spar and punch heavy bags bare knuckle. They are careful about the knuckles impacting the right spot and the wrist alignment being correct, the fist being tight, etc. In Kyokushin head punches and elbows to the head are not allowed because people fight bare knuckle (or sometimes with the thin open-fingered gloves) and repeated elbows and bare knuckle punches to the head give people brain damage, broken noses, etc so its not a great idea. Sure occasionally people get kicked or kneed in the head but it does not happen very often because its hard to execute it successfully. Also in dojo sparring guys of all weights and skill levels fight each other. In sparring a lot of guys punch each other full force to the body bare knuckle.

Also in Kyokushin karate (and most styles of Karate) in basic training they pull the fist back to next to the chest (in Kyokushin the chest level, in Shotokan at the hip level) after punching to get the full counter-rotation/circular movement as a training device to get used to putting full weight and body rotation into punches. In a fight/sparring some people change this to pulling the other fist back to next to your head (to keep guard). A well trained Kyokushin fighter delivers huge power in their punches. Fully professional boxers who do huge amounts of strength training as well as training for boxing full time must be compared to an true Okinawan Karate master rather than a championship karate fighter (who is typically not full time dedicated to it). Besides its not so useful to look at outliers. I would wager that an average practitioner that trained Kyokushin in a good dojo for 5 years would punch/do better in a bare knuckle (punching only) fight than an average practitioner that trained boxing for 5 years in a decent dojo. I trained with some guys who used to train/practice boxing before karate so I have some idea what I am talking about.

As for sparring in Kyokushin it depends on the guys you train with. There are some dojos/guys that go really full on with maximum power and aggression during sparring and leave the dojo limping and bruised (although this is becoming much rarer these days than it once was).

I am not going to say boxing is useless, but I do think that most boxers are at greater risk of injuring their hands if they were to fight bare knuckle. I will also add that when it comes to punching technique there is a lot more to consider than just punching power. How your body and weight distribution and hands are positioned after you finish the punch is important. Can you kick or leg check quickly straight after throwing a punch or are your legs too heavy (or your stance too forward leaning/low/unbalanced, etc)? Is your guard/other hand protecting your head? I think the way many boxers punch sets them up poorly if they were to follow up with a kick or leg check (block). Also the fact that boxers fight with such big gloves which they hide behind to protect their face is a distortion. It does not work the same way when you are bare knuckled. I think boxing can still be useful in a street fight but its sub-optimal compared to punching in certain other martial arts.

One problem with Kyokushin and indeed most forms of Karate is that there is little money in it so unless someone cross trains it with other martial arts to go into MMA or decides to enter kickboxing tournaments they are not going to be training with full time dedication because they cannot earn a living form it. This limits the pool of truly skilled practitioners. Back in the 70s and 80s when Karate was more popular you had instructors that just trained full time as a live in student (uchi deshi) for years and then opened a dojo and trained all day in between classes. Many Karate instructors (at least in any place that isn't a profit seeking Mcdojo) today do not earn enough to be full-time instructors and have a day job as well.

[Kid Twist]

(12-11-2016 04:53 PM)Moto Wrote:  

(12-11-2016 12:34 PM)John Twist Wrote:  

Question. How does a smaller guy who is naturally small, (hands, arms and short) beat a much larger and taller guy in a street fight.

I used to have a lot more delusions when I was a Kung Fu guy, even though I had been a wrestler before that. Now having trained Muay Thai and sparred a lot of bigger guys, I see that even with a lot of martial arts experience it is very hard to beat a pissed off much bigger guy who stops holding anything back and just charges and brawls. Very difficult.

So you gotta avoid if at all possible. The chances are stacked against you, even with superior training. If truly there is no way out, life or death situation (which is very rare) then you use the element of surprise and do viscious things like destroy his eyes, crush or snatch out the wind pipe, smash the groin. All of the above, as fast as possible. You'd have one chance. The Muay Thai elbows, knees, and teeps (push kicks) are also effective when you're being charged by a much larger swinging maniac.

Basically you're fucked, but there is a slight chance if you're surprising and vicious enough. Much better to avoid, and not be deluded into thinking you can take on much bigger and stronger guys (as even I used to think).

I think even Bruce Lee was brutally honest about this when I recall him saying that if he couldn't beat a guy in 30 or 90 seconds, he'd get out of there. In reality, I think it'd be 15-20 seconds. Or after a first shot.

It's amusing how people want to believe particular things about fighting. Speed and technique can surprise, but if they meet any level of fighting that carries mass ... they're dead on arrival.

[cascadecombo]

(12-11-2016 04:53 PM)Moto Wrote:  

(12-11-2016 12:34 PM)John Twist Wrote:  

Question. How does a smaller guy who is naturally small, (hands, arms and short) beat a much larger and taller guy in a street fight.

I used to have a lot more delusions when I was a Kung Fu guy, even though I had been a wrestler before that. Now having trained Muay Thai and sparred a lot of bigger guys, I see that even with a lot of martial arts experience it is very hard to beat a pissed off much bigger guy who stops holding anything back and just charges and brawls. Very difficult.

Not saying your wrong at all but going from sports where weight classes are required is not the ideal means for comparison. Something like judo for example, is ideal for countering when guys just charge and try to tackle.

I know from personal experience with guys who are competent, the ability is there to hit a person coming after you with the earth itself.

[underboss]

Be like water.