Quote: (01-17-2015 09:50 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

The whole discussion on martial arts effectiveness is hoax.
If somebody really wants to hurt you, it matters little what their skills level is. You both are gonna get hurt and die, and probably get into trouble with the law. If somebody wants you dead, you probably won't even see the blow coming.

Has this happened to you for you to know for certain? Have you been in any encounters as a trained individual where you found the untrained individual who was trying to 'really hurt you' getting the better of you? Or are you speculating based on something you read from an article?

Quote: (01-17-2015 09:50 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

And you must really be one hell of a dumbass to be in either of those situations.

Learning this skills are merely preparation. No rational individual really goes around seeking fights but it doesn't mean that anyone who gets into a physical altercation is a dumb ass. You cannot always run from a situation and your character really takes a hit if you KNOW that you cannot defend yourself. . Also, once you know how to take care of yourself, there is generally an aura that you give off that actually deters problems and filters out so that only the crazies want to tackle you.

Quote: (01-17-2015 09:50 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Why the hell do you think security and bodyguard is about being armed with a firearm? Bruce Lee himself carry a gun on his person all the time.

If your security detail only knows how to use a gun and doesn't bother with physical self defense tactics, he/she are useless. You get 8 rounds in a gun. It takes time to draw the weapon, time to fire etc.
Will you always have your gun on you? In the bedroom? In the pool? Do you travel? Can you take the gun where you travel?

Such thoughts are lazy and rather fearmongerish. Yes, there is always someone who will get into martial arts to be a 'badass' and think they can take on the world but that doesn't negate that the skillset is not a valuable one to have.

You didn't get my point. Nowhere did I say martial arts/self defense is useless or that one should not learn them. I myself train. What I don't agree with is the OP's idea of "you need to train in XYZ because they are better than ABC". That's bullshit. Any martial arts can produce an effective fighters and there are dumbasses in every discipline. If somebody wants to learn Tai Chi or Kung Fu because they like it, let them. Who cares if it will save your ass one day? You should train martial arts because you like it, not because you think it will hekp you whoop everyone's ass.

People are talking like you need to learn a certain art because when you are in danger it would help. If you are in danger, you are probably fucked. If we are talking a normal bar brawl that happens quite often, any martial art would do the job of getting you out alive.

I think these martial arts debates are getting pretty played out on the forum, ofcourse everyone chimes in and thinks they're an expert on the matter. I've done a decent bit of martial arts training over the last 3 years, mostly in Wing Chun Kung Fu, but also a good bit of Muay Thai, Filipino Kali, and about 8 months of consistent BJJ before I dropped out. That said by no means do I consider myself a martial arts expert or bad ass fighter. Personally I'm more a fan of the striking arts, but grappling is extremely important as well. For a guy to be really well rounded some stand-up and ground fighting skills are crucial, but most guys tend to either stick with just stand-up or grappling, and to be honest unless you're trying to become a MMA fighter and do cage fights, or just are really interested in becoming a beast at self defense, most guys will be fine with picking one or the other.

While UFC and MMA are becoming more and more popular, I'd say outside of certain hotbeds of MMA like Las Vegas or Orange County, the average guy you'll encounter in a street fight or bar fight is most likely not going to have any martial arts training. That said, I wouldn't have a false confidence because you're a blue belt in BJJ or a brown belt in Karate that you're invincible.

I do agree that some styles are going to be more effective than others, Muay Thai or boxing are probably going to be more applicable than Tai Kwon Do in most street defense situations. However I do think it's flawed thinking to say that a traditional martial art like TKD or Karate is completely useless.

Also a lot of guys on here talk about sparring, and yes I will agree that training with full contact sparring will make a big difference, and yes a lot of traditional martial arts do not incorporate sparring enough. I have done a fair amount of sparring, even did about five 3 minute rounds with a Muay Thai instructor whose trained for 12 years. But, I will admit to you guys that a lot of times I straight up bitch out when it comes to sparring and haven't had a good sparring session in about 3-4 months.

Why do I bitch out on sparring? Well because I have injured myself and also almost caused serious damage to a sparring partner's eye socket which required him to go get checked out at the hospital. I almost broke my foot on a botched Muay Thai roundhouse kick where I landed my foot on my opponents knee, which left my foot completely black, blue, and purple and swollen, with me hobbled and limping for a couple weeks. I almost had my jaw broken by a guy who is a gnarly bouncer and at 230 lbs out weighed me by at least 50 lbs at the time.

If and when you spar you got to have a lot of control and even then, you are putting yourself at risk of injury. Sure it can be necessary to test your skill and implement all the technique you have learned in class, but I think guys on here are all ego when they talk about sparring, sure a lot of them have walked the walk, but like a lot of people on the internet, I'm not so sure how many of them have really been thrown into the lion's den so to speak.

I want to end this by saying that guys love to say BJJ is the best martial art or Muay Thai is the best, or whatever, and point to the Gracies or whoever as an all mighty example. However in reality all martial arts have their flaws and there is no perfect marital art that will win 100% of the time, hence the need to be well rounded when it comes to striking and grappling if you really want to be fully confident in street survival situations. You can take a purple belt in BJJ, but if he's got 3 big ass Samoan dudes that want to bash his head in on the street, how good will he do rolling around on the ground trying to choke one out, when the other two are trying to stomp his head in? Like I said, every situation is different, in all reality situational awareness, being calm and diffusing a situation, or being a fast runner is the best form of self defense.

I study the discipline of Little Dark, where one can stare down 30 enemies at one time.

Quote: (01-17-2015 11:34 AM)Vaun Wrote:  

In boxing gyms, they make you do a lot of BS that I dont need. Learn how to jump rope.. Check. I can jump rope well. Conditioning. Check. Aside from a few extra pounds, I am good there. I am going to learn how to fight, not exercise in a boxing gym. I feel like most boxing classes/sessions are geared toward the newbie who will get a thrill out of jump roping and v ups on the ring. I want to learn how to punch.

Jumping rope isn't for just conditioning, it is for keeping you in the habit of being on your toes which helps you move better than if you are flat footed. And you need a trainer, not a class to really get the instruction and mitt work. If you are taking at a fitness club and this is one of the classes offered, it is most likely just exercise.

I hit much harder now than when I first started. Significantly more. Because it is an entire body movement to throw a punch properly and to end back in a safe defensive position. Though I have not tried any other types of self defense, I would imagine boxing would be the in the top 3, if not, the number 1 way to learn how to throw a punch properly.

I question whether boxing is a good way to learn how to throw a punch in a real fight.

I work out in a gym with boxers and they can spend up to 15 minutes wrapping their hands before they put on their gloves. That is so they can punch without spraining their wrists.

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist. I also do bare knuckle pushups every day to condition my knuckles. In traditional Karate, you practice hitting a makiwara, which is a padded striking post.

If a boxer gets in a real fight, where you don't have time to put on gloves, and actually hits bone, not only will it be excruciatingly painful, but he runs the risk of spraining or even breaking his wrist. The boxer never learns to safely hit a target with full force without the aid of hand wrapping and gloves.


   

Quote: (01-18-2015 01:56 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

I question whether boxing is a good way to learn how to throw a punch in a real fight.

Quote: (01-17-2015 04:10 PM)Moma Wrote:  

Quote: (01-17-2015 09:50 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

The whole discussion on martial arts effectiveness is hoax.
If somebody really wants to hurt you, it matters little what their skills level is. You both are gonna get hurt and die, and probably get into trouble with the law. If somebody wants you dead, you probably won't even see the blow coming.

Has this happened to you for you to know for certain? Have you been in any encounters as a trained individual where you found the untrained individual who was trying to 'really hurt you' getting the better of you? Or are you speculating based on something you read from an article?

Quote: (01-17-2015 09:50 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

And you must really be one hell of a dumbass to be in either of those situations.

Learning this skills are merely preparation. No rational individual really goes around seeking fights but it doesn't mean that anyone who gets into a physical altercation is a dumb ass. You cannot always run from a situation and your character really takes a hit if you KNOW that you cannot defend yourself. . Also, once you know how to take care of yourself, there is generally an aura that you give off that actually deters problems and filters out so that only the crazies want to tackle you.

Quote: (01-17-2015 09:50 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Why the hell do you think security and bodyguard is about being armed with a firearm? Bruce Lee himself carry a gun on his person all the time.

If your security detail only knows how to use a gun and doesn't bother with physical self defense tactics, he/she are useless. You get 8 rounds in a gun. It takes time to draw the weapon, time to fire etc.
Will you always have your gun on you? In the bedroom? In the pool? Do you travel? Can you take the gun where you travel?

Such thoughts are lazy and rather fearmongerish. Yes, there is always someone who will get into martial arts to be a 'badass' and think they can take on the world but that doesn't negate that the skillset is not a valuable one to have.

I've been beaten up and glassed in a bar by multiple assailants who were untrained. One prick was looking for trouble, I retaliated, and then his friends came from all angles and I ended up on the floor. The punches didn't hurt, but the stamps fucked up my knee and ankle, and the glass left me with a couple of small scars, and closed my eye completely shut for a couple of days.

I strongly encourage anybody getting into fighting sports to focus on being likeable, and on how to diffuse altercations when possible. When you know how to box, it can be tempting to let things escalate because you feel like you know how to handle yourself, and you want to test your skills, but when the glasses start flying, there's really not much you can do to protect yourself from injury. Also with CCTV being all over the place, trouble with the law is a very real possibility, and that's really unpleasant, and can limit your options for travel and employment. Also, if somebody gets seriously injured, then you can end up in prison, where most people find out they're actually not as alpha as they think they are.

Quote: (01-18-2015 05:01 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

I've been beaten up and glassed in a bar by multiple assailants who were untrained. One prick was looking for trouble, I retaliated, and then his friends came from all angles and I ended up on the floor. The punches didn't hurt, but the stamps fucked up my knee and ankle, and the glass left me with a couple of small scars, and closed my eye completely shut for a couple of days.

I strongly encourage anybody getting into fighting sports to focus on being likeable, and on how to diffuse altercations when possible. When you know how to box, it can be tempting to let things escalate because you feel like you know how to handle yourself, and you want to test your skills, but when the glasses start flying, there's really not much you can do to protect yourself from injury. Also with CCTV being all over the place, trouble with the law is a very real possibility, and that's really unpleasant, and can limit your options for travel and employment. Also, if somebody gets seriously injured, then you can end up in prison, where most people find out they're actually not as alpha as they think they are.

I've mentioned this before but back in '99 when I was 18/19 I was walking from a Chinese restaurant back to my car in the Arcadian with a girl on either arm.

A guy of bout 30 just walked up behind me and smashed a glass into the front of my head (when I looked later whilst driving myself to hospital I could see my skull above my eyelid). It was a completely unprovoked attack and I ended up in a 3 vs 1 fight with him and his two mates; only able to see out of one eye as the injured one closed instantly and was full of blood.

If I hadn't been sober, physically big and knew how to cover up whilst being punched by three guys simultaneously, I could very easily have been hurt very very badly.

Oddly, I think my years of rugby helped as much as my kickboxing in an encounter like that; mauling and shoving. Along with the fitness to keep fighting/brawling until they gassed out.

I was lucky.
Lucky to be sober.
Lucky to be large enough to absorb the blows without going down.
Lucky to have trained instincts to protect my head.
Lucky my three attackers were very drunk.
Lucky none of them knew how to really throw a punch or hurt me significantly beyond the initial attack.

It took about 10 years for the scar to fade to the point I can hardly notice it.

A decade of daily reminders in the mirror of how vulnerable we are, even those of us who have dedicated serious time to combat sports and training.

So yes, you're right, the delusions are often in the heads of those who have done some ring fighting/sport martial art. It's easy to think you can handle yourself much more successfully than is really the case.

Just as an example, a national level kick boxer I train got bashed up over christmas in a bar by a bouncer. He's only 70kg and decided he would pick a fight with a 6'2 120kg bodybuilder. It didn't end well.

Quote: (01-18-2015 01:56 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

I question whether boxing is a good way to learn how to throw a punch in a real fight.

I work out in a gym with boxers and they can spend up to 15 minutes wrapping their hands before they put on their gloves. That is so they can punch without spraining their wrists.

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist. I also do bare knuckle pushups every day to condition my knuckles. In traditional Karate, you practice hitting a makiwara, which is a padded striking post.

If a boxer gets in a real fight, where you don't have time to put on gloves, and actually hits bone, not only will it be excruciatingly painful, but he runs the risk of spraining or even breaking his wrist. The boxer never learns to safely hit a target with full force without the aid of hand wrapping and gloves.

Do you practice hitting anything that hits back?

Quote: (01-18-2015 06:20 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Quote: (01-18-2015 01:56 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

I question whether boxing is a good way to learn how to throw a punch in a real fight.

I work out in a gym with boxers and they can spend up to 15 minutes wrapping their hands before they put on their gloves. That is so they can punch without spraining their wrists.

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist. I also do bare knuckle pushups every day to condition my knuckles. In traditional Karate, you practice hitting a makiwara, which is a padded striking post.

If a boxer gets in a real fight, where you don't have time to put on gloves, and actually hits bone, not only will it be excruciatingly painful, but he runs the risk of spraining or even breaking his wrist. The boxer never learns to safely hit a target with full force without the aid of hand wrapping and gloves.

Do you practice hitting anything that hits back?

To be honest it's a silly post full of incorrect assumptions on Sherman's part.

^

I'm not so sure that it is. There's a saying, train like you fight. And if you consider boxing a form of training for a real world fight, you must then wonder what problems you'll run into when that real fight happens.

I'm not a boxer. But, I know that boxers wear wraps, boxing gloves do not allow for a really tight fist (at least the ones I've worn), and boxers strike to the head a lot. It also doesn't matter so much if a boxer doesn't strike square because he's not going to break metacarpals with gloves on.

So, how does that translate into a bare knuckle fight? Is a boxer going to fall back on his training, or is he going to adapt to the new rules of fighting on the fly? Serious question.

I really have no dog in this fight because I think so much emphasis on unarmed fighting is stupid unless you're prohibited by law from owning and carrying weapons. But for those of you who shit on traditional martial arts so much... have you actually trained in them? Because I trained in karate for quite a while myself. I sparred every Friday, and I was in a handful of real fights back when I was more hotheaded and kicked the shit out of my opponents. Now my "martial art" is pistol shooting plus supporting techniques, but I'm pretty happy I had that shitty, lame ass karate training back in the day.

As far as boxing for fight training, I'm a lot more concerned about the fact that boxing is a highly structured sport than the equipment issue. If boxing is all you do, you might want to consider training that involves opponents that can kick you (low kicks to destroy your base, not Hollywood crap) and grab on to you, or any number of other things that are against the rules in the ring.

...And if you often find yourself in shitty situations where your fighting ability is important, consider examining your life choices. I carry weapons to defend myself, sure, but the greater components of my self defense strategy are alertness and avoidance.

Quote: (01-18-2015 07:50 AM)weambulance Wrote:  

^

I'm not so sure that it is. There's a saying, train like you fight. And if you consider boxing a form of training for a real world fight, you must then wonder what problems you'll run into when that real fight happens.

That's very hard to do. What is a "real world fight" exactly?

However, it is similar to sparring being the best preparation for a boxing bout. And a boxing bout being a good prep for a real world fight.

Quote:Quote:

I'm not a boxer. But, I know that boxers wear wraps, boxing gloves do not allow for a really tight fist (at least the ones I've worn), and boxers strike to the head a lot. It also doesn't matter so much if a boxer doesn't strike square because he's not going to break metacarpals with gloves on.

I don't really understand what you are saying here? Wraps and gloves enable us to hit harder in training than we could do without the equipment. Why is training to hit a (moving) head a problem?

Quote:Quote:

So, how does that translate into a bare knuckle fight? Is a boxer going to fall back on his training, or is he going to adapt to the new rules of fighting on the fly? Serious question.

What new rules? I can guarantee you that whilst an experienced boxer may break his hand punching someone on the street, the usually untrained opponent will come off a lot worse.

You haven't ever trained boxing so I think perhaps you don't understand the power produced by a boxing strike.

Quote:Quote:

As far as boxing for fight training, I'm a lot more concerned about the fact that boxing is a highly structured sport than the equipment issue. If boxing is all you do, you might want to consider training that involves opponents that can kick you (low kicks to destroy your base, not Hollywood crap) and grab on to you, or any number of other things that are against the rules in the ring.

Of course a sport is going to be structured; your shooting isn't done against moving opponents firing back at you, is it?

Also, very few people can deliver low kicks powerful enough to stop an adrenaline fuelled opponent in their tracks.

Quote: (01-18-2015 08:05 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Quote: (01-18-2015 07:50 AM)weambulance Wrote:  

^

I'm not so sure that it is. There's a saying, train like you fight. And if you consider boxing a form of training for a real world fight, you must then wonder what problems you'll run into when that real fight happens.

That's very hard to do. What is a "real world fight" exactly?

However, it is similar to sparring being the best preparation for a boxing bout. And a boxing bout being a good prep for a real world fight.

A real world fight is one where you don't have gloves, or wraps, or rules, or a shitload of free room to dance around in, etc. I'm mostly talking about equipment in that statement. Which is exactly what Sherman was talking about.

There are any number of analogies I could give to illustrate but no doubt people would take umbrage. Train in conditions as close to the conditions you will face in a fight, if you wish that training to most aptly prepare you for a fight.

There's nothing hard about that. Be creative. Get headgear and less restrictive gloves that allow you to make a solid fist, plus whatever padding you feel like using. Set up some obstacles in a room that will get in your way. Try to defend yourself against someone who is allowed to tackle you, to kick you, etc. Find the limits of your skill, and figure out what you need to work on.

Quote:Quote:

Quote:Quote:

I'm not a boxer. But, I know that boxers wear wraps, boxing gloves do not allow for a really tight fist (at least the ones I've worn), and boxers strike to the head a lot. It also doesn't matter so much if a boxer doesn't strike square because he's not going to break metacarpals with gloves on.

I don't really understand what you are saying here? Wraps and gloves enable us to hit harder in training than we could do without the equipment. Why is training to hit a (moving) head a problem?

Um. Seriously? Hang an 8 pound bowling ball from the ceiling on a rope about head height. Now punch it bare handed. That's what it feels like punching someone in the top half of the head, except a human head won't give as much, being attached to the rest of the body.

Quote:Quote:

Quote:Quote:

So, how does that translate into a bare knuckle fight? Is a boxer going to fall back on his training, or is he going to adapt to the new rules of fighting on the fly? Serious question.

What new rules? I can guarantee you that whilst an experienced boxer may break his hand punching someone on the street, the usually untrained opponent will come off a lot worse.

You haven't ever trained boxing so I think perhaps you don't understand the power produced by a boxing strike.

The new rules where you're not wearing gloves, or wraps. Where off-angle strikes will break bones in your hand or wrist. Where you have no padding, so hitting someone in the skull also has a lot of potential to break bones, especially with a loose fist. Pretty hard to hit someone again when you just broke bones in your hand, dude.

There's a good reason they taught us not to punch people in the head with a closed fist in karate. You apparently realize that a boxer might break his hand. So you only want to have one punch and you're done?

What happens when your opponent ducks his head, takes your punch on his upper forehead--which really doesn't hurt that much and is unlikely to put him down--and now you have a broken hand? Hope you're wearing running shoes.

And that comment about power is just stupid to say to a trained fighter bud. No, I'm not a boxer. But boxers aren't the only people in the world that know how to hit hard. Punching is a skill but it's far from rocket surgery.

Quote:Quote:

Quote:Quote:

As far as boxing for fight training, I'm a lot more concerned about the fact that boxing is a highly structured sport than the equipment issue. If boxing is all you do, you might want to consider training that involves opponents that can kick you (low kicks to destroy your base, not Hollywood crap) and grab on to you, or any number of other things that are against the rules in the ring.

Of course a sport is going to be structured; your shooting isn't done against moving opponents firing back at you, is it?

Funny you should mention that. I have, in fact, done force on force training where my opponent was shooting back with simunitions. My training is done on the move quite often, just like I would move in a real gunfight to get to cover and make it hard for my opponent to hit me.

In addition I have the uncommon advantage of being an infantry combat veteran, so I've had plenty of real people shooting real bullets at me. However, that's not required or recommended for most people who just want to defend themselves effectively.

I advocate retention training, extreme close quarters combat training, and other force on force practice for all people serious about defending themselves with a gun.

Quote:Quote:

Also, very few people can deliver low kicks powerful enough to stop an adrenaline fuelled opponent in their tracks.

... What? Low kicks are quick and powerful. Someone who is looking for punches won't even see one coming, nor will some clown just rushing in. It's a tool in the toolbox, and not supposed to be some chop suey one strike fight ending crap.

Let someone kick you hard in the upper shin/knee area with a work boot and see how that affects your fighting ability. Unless you're some crazy South Korean guy straight out of Best of the Best and people break baseball bats over your shin on the regular, you're going to be feeling it.

What you have ignored is my statement that a boxer, who spars with boxing rules only, will not be looking for threats that don't exist in the boxing ring. There are so many examples there I'm not going to bother listing any. Use your imagination. Punching and taking punches is only a small part of fighting outside the ring.

Quote: (01-18-2015 06:11 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

...
Oddly, I think my years of rugby helped as much as my kickboxing in an encounter like that; mauling and shoving. Along with the fitness to keep fighting/brawling until they gassed out.

I was lucky.
Lucky to be sober.
Lucky to be large enough to absorb the blows without going down.
Lucky to have trained instincts to protect my head.
Lucky my three attackers were very drunk.
Lucky none of them knew how to really throw a punch or hurt me significantly beyond the initial attack.

It took about 10 years for the scar to fade to the point I can hardly notice it.

A decade of daily reminders in the mirror of how vulnerable we are, even those of us who have dedicated serious time to combat sports and training.

That reminds me of a little story in my life - I have a remote cousin who grew up in a very tough neighborhood being dirt-poor.

He is very athletic 6'3 and started doing street fights around the age of 12. He even joined Neonazis (left them soon afterwards since he is actually a kind guy) and a Soccer hooligan club to get into more fights. Back when I met him the first time he was 16 and he told me that he had been in roughly 500 fights already (!). He even showed me proudly some magazine shots taken by a journalist who photographed him while he was beating up someone with a belt during a major hooligan street fight. He told me that they were occasionally meeting other groups to do some serious combat just for kicks.

Back then I exercised a bit Karate and Boxing, but when we sparred a bit he saw every one of my moves as if in slow-mo or as if he knew 5 seconds in advance what I would do.

A few years later he hit someone too hard in a street fight and the guy split his skull on the sidewalk after which he got to prison. Glad to say that my cousin turned his life around and now became some kind of born-again Christian and works in construction.

But it really strikes me how effective real-life experiences are versus simple training exercises. Of course no sane person would go out and engage in hundreds of potentially dangerous street fights to get that kind of experience, but ultimately this is the kind of stuff that makes such a guy a force to be reckoned with on par with the best martial artists in the country - plus he was 6'3 and did enough lifting to be roughly 200-210 pounds in ripped muscle.

And you cannot really train what he went through because it's fucking dangerous - it also got him in prison for manslaughter and almost fucked up his life.

Quote: (01-18-2015 09:44 AM)weambulance Wrote:  

Quote: (01-18-2015 08:05 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Quote: (01-18-2015 07:50 AM)weambulance Wrote:  

^

I'm not so sure that it is. There's a saying, train like you fight. And if you consider boxing a form of training for a real world fight, you must then wonder what problems you'll run into when that real fight happens.

That's very hard to do. What is a "real world fight" exactly?

However, it is similar to sparring being the best preparation for a boxing bout. And a boxing bout being a good prep for a real world fight.

A real world fight is one where you don't have gloves, or wraps, or rules, or a shitload of free room to dance around in, etc. I'm mostly talking about equipment in that statement. Which is exactly what Sherman was talking about.

There are any number of analogies I could give to illustrate but no doubt people would take umbrage. Train in conditions as close to the conditions you will face in a fight, if you wish that training to most aptly prepare you for a fight.

There's nothing hard about that. Be creative. Get headgear and less restrictive gloves that allow you to make a solid fist, plus whatever padding you feel like using. Set up some obstacles in a room that will get in your way. Try to defend yourself against someone who is allowed to tackle you, to kick you, etc. Find the limits of your skill, and figure out what you need to work on.

Quote:Quote:

Quote:Quote:

I'm not a boxer. But, I know that boxers wear wraps, boxing gloves do not allow for a really tight fist (at least the ones I've worn), and boxers strike to the head a lot. It also doesn't matter so much if a boxer doesn't strike square because he's not going to break metacarpals with gloves on.

I don't really understand what you are saying here? Wraps and gloves enable us to hit harder in training than we could do without the equipment. Why is training to hit a (moving) head a problem?

Um. Seriously? Hang an 8 pound bowling ball from the ceiling on a rope about head height. Now punch it bare handed. That's what it feels like punching someone in the top half of the head, except a human head won't give as much, being attached to the rest of the body.

Quote:Quote:

Quote:Quote:

So, how does that translate into a bare knuckle fight? Is a boxer going to fall back on his training, or is he going to adapt to the new rules of fighting on the fly? Serious question.

What new rules? I can guarantee you that whilst an experienced boxer may break his hand punching someone on the street, the usually untrained opponent will come off a lot worse.

You haven't ever trained boxing so I think perhaps you don't understand the power produced by a boxing strike.

The new rules where you're not wearing gloves, or wraps. Where off-angle strikes will break bones in your hand or wrist. Where you have no padding, so hitting someone in the skull also has a lot of potential to break bones, especially with a loose fist. Pretty hard to hit someone again when you just broke bones in your hand, dude.

There's a good reason they taught us not to punch people in the head with a closed fist in karate. You apparently realize that a boxer might break his hand. So you only want to have one punch and you're done?

What happens when your opponent ducks his head, takes your punch on his upper forehead--which really doesn't hurt that much and is unlikely to put him down--and now you have a broken hand? Hope you're wearing running shoes.

And that comment about power is just stupid to say to a trained fighter bud. No, I'm not a boxer. But boxers aren't the only people in the world that know how to hit hard. Punching is a skill but it's far from rocket surgery.

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As far as boxing for fight training, I'm a lot more concerned about the fact that boxing is a highly structured sport than the equipment issue. If boxing is all you do, you might want to consider training that involves opponents that can kick you (low kicks to destroy your base, not Hollywood crap) and grab on to you, or any number of other things that are against the rules in the ring.

Of course a sport is going to be structured; your shooting isn't done against moving opponents firing back at you, is it?

Funny you should mention that. I have, in fact, done force on force training where my opponent was shooting back with simunitions. My training is done on the move quite often, just like I would move in a real gunfight to get to cover and make it hard for my opponent to hit me.

In addition I have the uncommon advantage of being an infantry combat veteran, so I've had plenty of real people shooting real bullets at me. However, that's not required or recommended for most people who just want to defend themselves effectively.

I advocate retention training, extreme close quarters combat training, and other force on force practice for all people serious about defending themselves with a gun.

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Also, very few people can deliver low kicks powerful enough to stop an adrenaline fuelled opponent in their tracks.

... What? Low kicks are quick and powerful. Someone who is looking for punches won't even see one coming, nor will some clown just rushing in. It's a tool in the toolbox, and not supposed to be some chop suey one strike fight ending crap.

Let someone kick you hard in the upper shin/knee area with a work boot and see how that affects your fighting ability. Unless you're some crazy South Korean guy straight out of Best of the Best and people break baseball bats over your shin on the regular, you're going to be feeling it.

What you have ignored is my statement that a boxer, who spars with boxing rules only, will not be looking for threats that don't exist in the boxing ring. There are so many examples there I'm not going to bother listing any. Use your imagination. Punching and taking punches is only a small part of fighting outside the ring.

Ok.

The only thing I will say is that if Boxing strikes were not the very best kind of striking we wouldn't have seen Karateka, upon the formation of Full Contact Karate (what we now call Kickboxing) switch to boxing punches.

The same thing has happened in Thailand with the adaptation of western boxing into Muay Thai (as a result of westerners putting them on their asses continually a couple of decades ago with boxing strikes).

Hell, I'd get a master Karateka in to train my K-1 fighters if I thought anything would give them an edge.

Look, I respect traditional martial arts as much as any student of their style but to say that anything but Western Boxing is the most effective form of punching is ridiculous.

Most of the people in this thread sound like typical keyboard warriors to me. I agree with dalaran1991 - avoiding fights in the first place is the most valuable asset. Seems like everyone here is onto being the dude who wins barfights. Its all fun and games until you have to pay someone's dental reconstruction and end up in jail for a few months if lucky.

PS: I do practice some muai thai, but in all fairness, I only go to workouts to stay fit and have never had the intention to get into a real fight or a typical fight-night ring fights.

Punching a bowling ball isn't even close to the same as punching someone in the head lol.

Sometimes people on this forum crack me up...stop talking about stuff you know absolutely nothing about. It makes you sound ridiculous.

You gotta separate the wheat from the chaff when choosing a school of any style or discipline.

Kung Fu and Karate are not necessarily dead.

Kung Fu instructor here. I sometimes go to an MMA school, where my brother chooses to train. I was a varsity wrestler in high school and qualified for state championships. Then I studied at a Kung Fu school. Not a McDojo, not for profit. It is underground. The master boxed for many years in his younger years, then studied many different styles of Kung Fu, with the most time in Kenpo Karate, before combining the best of it all in one system.

Some background info on myself and my style before giving my humble opinion. Doing Kung Fu made me a much better wrestler. It gave me the killer instinct that I lacked. My Kung Fu school was and is far from dead, according to the meaning of the OP, but it is underground. We sparred a lot. We have unique drills and techniques. We have deadly forms. Yes, practicing good forms can make you a better fighter. Sparring is important, but drills focussed on developing certain aspects, like speed, precision, timing, toughening your knuckles/wrists/shins/forearms, etc... are also important.

After moving to another state from my Kung Fu school, which I call with confidence an elite fighting brotherhood, I was unable to find anything near its equal. I found a Kung Fu McDojo, and cleaned up even the best students, with their multi-tipped black belts, during a "Sparring Festival" while wearing my white belt. I only signed up for Tai Chi classes at that school, by the way, to learn their form. I do quite well indeed, with my Kung Fu and wrestling, against MMA guys in sparring.

MMA still has a lot of rules, but true less than a standard Karate tournament. Take off the gloves, the grappling will be much less important. Boxing is limited in the kind of strikes you can throw. Avoiding a punch is good, as they do in boxing, but the technique of checking a punch with your big-ass glove will not transfer to the street and could get you hurt. Why not do more than simply avoid or do a basic block of a punch? It is a waste to not do something with the gift. You may not catch most punches in some great arm-breaking technique, but you can use your block/parry to control and maneuver your opponent. I've trashed Tae Kwon Do guys this way in an open martial arts tournament.

If you think chi is bullshit, and cannot feel a chi ball (like in the video being ridiculed at the beginning of the thread) I just feel a little sorry for you. You don't need that kind of sensitivity to be a badass fighter or pro boxer, but life is richer when you have more layers of perception than the merely physical. I no longer waste it on girls I hardly know, having only done this with my girlfriend in recent years, but most girls are more gifted than guys at feeling chi. You can indeed make a ball of chi, instruct someone how to do the same, then merge them and have a very real sensation of the energy. You can temporarily heal migraines like my brother has done with chi for his gf at one time, with no formal training or fancy lessons in Chinese medicine. PM if you're curious. No, I can't make fire or electricity, but I do not disbelieve in the possibility for extremely developed people with advanced minds and spirits.

Most important thing- a school should build character. I would have been thrown out for misusing my Kung Fu. This is not a copout, we are free to engage in tournaments and MMA and whatnot. But to bully or use it to engage in robbery or crime would be unforgivable. I don't know if most MMA gyms would feel the same way.

Quote: (01-18-2015 06:24 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Quote: (01-18-2015 06:20 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Quote: (01-18-2015 01:56 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

I question whether boxing is a good way to learn how to throw a punch in a real fight.

I work out in a gym with boxers and they can spend up to 15 minutes wrapping their hands before they put on their gloves. That is so they can punch without spraining their wrists.

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist. I also do bare knuckle pushups every day to condition my knuckles. In traditional Karate, you practice hitting a makiwara, which is a padded striking post.

If a boxer gets in a real fight, where you don't have time to put on gloves, and actually hits bone, not only will it be excruciatingly painful, but he runs the risk of spraining or even breaking his wrist. The boxer never learns to safely hit a target with full force without the aid of hand wrapping and gloves.

Do you practice hitting anything that hits back?

To be honest it's a silly post full of incorrect assumptions on Sherman's part.

Boxers wrap their wrists to protect them from injury. But providing protection weakens your wrist and exposes you to injury in a real fight. If you want to fight without gloves, you have to condition your wrists, hands, and knuckles to make them strong. A protected hand is a weak hand. Boxing is a great sport. But there is a difference between a sport and a real street fight where you obviously can't put on gloves. I am just saying that in this instance, Karate is a more realistic self defense because it trains people how to fight without any artificial protection. A traditional Japanese karate punch is powerful because the Karate punch uses the whole body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrist_wraps

Ok, so you have full power bare knuckle sparring sessions to the face in your karate dojo?

And you think a cross or hook doesn't use the whole body?

I'd say karate (very general term, some types like kyokushin are much better than others) is much worse since you don't wear protection, you can't spar at even close to the same power, speed and intensity of a real fight. You'll be completely unprepared for what a real fight is like and be in for a rude awakening if it ever happens.

"Ok, so you have full power bare knuckle sparring sessions to the face in your karate dojo?"

You don't have to hit someone to condition your hands. The point is that you have to put in the hours of training to specifically condition your fist to hit something hard at full force without injuring yourself. It doesn't happen automatically. The same thing applies, incidentally, to the shins of your legs. In traditional karate, the shins are conditioned by hitting them with bats.


"And you think a cross or hook doesn't use the whole body?"

In Karate, you learn to punch from your stomach using hip rotation.

"I'd say karate (very general term, some types like kyokushin are much better than others) is much worse since you don't wear protection, you can't spar at even close to the same power, speed and intensity of a real fight. You'll be completely unprepared for what a real fight is like and be in for a rude awakening if it ever happens."

Master Oyama, developer of Kyokushin, trained under Master Funakoshi along with Master Nishiyama. I trained under Master Nishiyama in Shotokan style for my black belt.

Boxing does condition a fighter to take a punch and keep fighting. Karate sparring maintains full power and speed, in addition to control, by delivering the blow at full power but stopping at the target. At the black belt level, limited contact is allowed to keep it painful.

Here is a picture of Master Oyama hitting a traditional makiwara.

   

This thread needs more Fisto.

You know it's impossible to maintain full power and speed if you stop before you hit the target, right?

So the only sparring allowed is limited contact, once you reach black belt? And you can't hit to the face? So, how is this realistic? Because you don't wrap your hands?

And you punch from the stomach, so your hands are down at your waist, with nothing protecting your head from punches? How do you defend from punches to the head? Especially if no one can punch you in the head during training?

Quote: (01-19-2015 01:04 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

You know it's impossible to maintain full power and speed if you stop before you hit the target, right?

So the only sparring allowed is limited contact, once you reach black belt? And you can't hit to the face? So, how is this realistic? Because you don't wrap your hands?

And you punch from the stomach, so your hands are down at your waist, with nothing protecting your head from punches? How do you defend from punches to the head? Especially if no one can punch you in the head during training?

No its not impossible when you have control. Traditional Japanese Karate is designed around creating total control of every movement. Even a boxer must have some way of creating stability and stopping his punches else he would fall over every time he punched full force and missed his target.

Punching from the stomach does not mean your hands are near your waist. It refers to the power of the punch coming from your center of gravity and transmitting to your arm through hip rotation.

Of course, Karate has many blocks to protect the face. Being repeatedly hit in the face doesn't make you stronger, especially if you are a knowledge worker.