Hello gentlemen.

I 'm in to the game since 2011, a meet a lot of women some reject me,some seduced successfully. I know the lifestyle of a player is not easy one
loots of rejections, many rude women, even litteraly crazy women, even some are tried to steal emotional,economical resources from me. I feel sometimes doing it like a work.

Now in to the topic, I successfully a made social circle and joined other high value social circles and i meet a lot of men but i never meet a single man witch we call "a natural" all men who are good with women are players literally and fully consious about the behaviours ( body laguange) and conversations ( negs, teasing etc) they do. I spoke with many of them how they become good with women, this is the answers i received from "natural players" in hierarical order the percetange(the way they discovered game) which told me.

1about 70%) Female mentor, they was lucky enough to be seduced by a horny girl ( she teached him game in order to bang her).

2about 20%) The father was a ladies man and teach him tips and tricks on "how to bang girls"

3about 5%) A close member of his family usually an uncle who was a player.

4about 4%) By Player friends who was good in the game, shared knowlange about seducation and challanged him to do it.

5about 1%) Autodidact, which is he accintentaly saw an another player daring seduction, he was enough clever to emulate it.

This is from my experience what i see and the answers i took. Personally don't believe that, the borned "natural" exist. Even i forced to believed it, the only thing he could is to create huge amounts of attraction but with out game(logistics aspect) he would have literaly 0 (yes 0 ) bangs.

http://www.rooshv.com/the-myth-of-the-natural

Quote:Quote:

But he wasn’t. Just because he didn’t read a book doesn’t mean he didn’t learn through trial and error like you did, practicing his game on a large number of women. It doesn’t mean that he wasn’t conscious and deliberate with his behavior, incrementally improving his moves and tactics over a long period of time. He has experimented like you have experimented, and he has also connected his attempts with results to figure out what works and what doesn’t.

I agree 100% with Roosh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodidacticism

For anyone who doesn't know that is Autodidact.

P.S All of this is from my experience, any different opinions are appreciated.

I guess I am natural... I'm old enough that the PUA stuff wasn't around when I was growing up and in early 20s.

I learned from watching other men. I used to go to the nightclub and follow Alphas around (from a distance) the whole night to see what girls they picked up and how they did it.

Then eventually my best and friend and I joined forces to learn how to meet girls and compared notes about girls constantly until we figured it out.

Long story short - 20% observation, 80% trial and error.

PUA material just polished my game off.

Names Cr33pin.... nice to meet you

Don't take the term "natural" so literally. When we talk about a guy who is a "natural" with picking up and seducing women, it's meant in the same way one is a "natural" at playing a musical instrument. No one is touching a piano for the first time in their life and playing Chopin like they knew it all along. It's a skill they tend to have better abilities than others at; it comes easier to them.

Part of it is good genes, part of it is good upbringing, part of it is strong work ethic, part of it is a sharp mind. If you grow up in certain circles, follow certain life paths, and interact with certain people you tend to pick up on things better and more "naturally" than someone who was an introvert in school, went into STEM, and works in an office 5 days a week and "doesn't like going to clubs." The latter person needs more guidance, coaching, hard work, and deprogramming/reprogramming to get with the program.

Relevant:

Id say this can have varying degrees and examples.
Im a natural alpha but was extremely blue pill

I had to learn game and how to apply my natural ability to game. After I got the basics down my personality in life is stamped all over my game.

Quote: (01-21-2017 07:04 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Don't take the term "natural" so literally. When we talk about a guy who is a "natural" with picking up and seducing women, it's meant in the same way one is a "natural" at playing a musical instrument. No one is touching a piano for the first time in their life and playing Chopin like they knew it all along. It's a skill they tend to have better abilities than others at; it comes easier to them.

Part of it is good genes, part of it is good upbringing, part of it is strong work ethic, part of it is a sharp mind. If you grow up in certain circles, follow certain life paths, and interact with certain people you tend to pick up on things better and more "naturally" than someone who was an introvert in school, went into STEM, and works in an office 5 days a week and "doesn't like going to clubs." The latter person needs more guidance, coaching, hard work, and deprogramming/reprogramming to get with the program.

Relevant:

Thats my mean point (i put them in bold) in a more general way, other parts play a minor role from what i experienced, for a "natural player". Yes the latter person lacked at least one from the 5 ways I explained to become a player. I think its more of a proper training with a good mentor.

Most naturals are just guys who grew up with looks or status and therefore had a head start on dealing with women than other males. These guys have been the "select" male in their environment from the age of 13, are used to being confident, are used to being desired, and their natural ability is based on experience.

Their confidence comes from their competence. Their natural ability is based on advantages or something tangible or observable they possess that put them above other males.

"Game" is just mimicking the behaviors and tactics of males who are already successful with women. We have to force ourselves to mimic the things that those men did without having to be taught or told.

Quote: (01-21-2017 11:33 PM)Unchained Wrote:  

Most naturals are just guys who grew up with looks or status and therefore had a head start on dealing with women than other males. These guys have been the "select" male in their environment from the age of 13, are used to being confident, are used to being desired, and their natural ability is based on experience.

Their confidence comes from their competence. Their natural ability is based on advantages or something tangible or observable they possess that put them above other males.

"Game" is just mimicking the behaviors and tactics of males who are already successful with women. We have to force ourselves to mimic the things that those men did without having to be taught or told.

This. Very well put.

Quote: (01-21-2017 11:33 PM)Unchained Wrote:  

Most naturals are just guys who grew up with looks or status and therefore had a head start on dealing with women than other males. These guys have been the "select" male in their environment from the age of 13, are used to being confident, are used to being desired, and their natural ability is based on experience.

Their confidence comes from their competence. Their natural ability is based on advantages or something tangible or observable they possess that put them above other males.

"Game" is just mimicking the behaviors and tactics of males who are already successful with women. We have to force ourselves to mimic the things that those men did without having to be taught or told.

Exactly.

And funnily enough most of them never understand how can we, regular schmucks, struggle with women. Of course it's easier when you get kisses, flirts and sex unsollicited since you were a kid, whereas getting a sloppy makeout at 17 is a motive of celebration for many guys all over the world.

I've met a few naturals in my life, knew a couple of them very well. These guys just had an unexplained charm. They weren't especially good looking, and they didn't consciously "perfect their game". They just had a sliver tongue and were quick to close the deal once they saw the girl is starting to get interested. They were also filtering a lot (not spending time on girls that seemed uninterested).

One of the guys I knew was doing exclusively street approaches. Bus stops, market squares etc. He would definitely get rejected plenty, but he would also have a lot of insane wins, girls that you wouldn't expect him to bang, models etc.

Again, sliver tongue and knew how to strike to close the deal. And would approach a lot, roam the street for hours. On the other hand there was a lot of stuff he simply couldn't bring himself to do, like approach inside a mall. Go figure. Or nightclubs, he would just freeze, stand there the whole night and go home. So he just stuck to what he knew and it worked well for him.

If there's one "technique" that has gotten me the couple of lays I feel best about, the ones you think back on and say "Yep. This is what makes life worth living" it's something like the following:

Why do so many girls study psychology, or subscribe to mystical woo woo? Because, as they are humans, they have the same "big questions" that have plagued humanity for its entire existence. Who am I? Why am I here? Where are we going? What does it all mean? Sure, she might not be able to frame it all like fuckin' Dietrich Bonhoeffer. But it doesn't mean it's not there, even in the most ditzy of ditzy broads.

But all around they see bubblegum players and bubblegum game. And then a man comes up to her who is able to, fairly quickly, give her the impression through his game "I know you, and I know what you seek. I do not have all the answers, but I know this because it is also in my mind."

Like a great artist or musician, a girl will spread her legs for a guy who she sees as being unafraid to strike at the heart of things.

Maybe "naturals" intuitively understand this.

A natural is not some kind of prodigy kid with magic aura and innate talent for getting girls.

he's a guy who had some good things going on for him early on that gave him confidence and shaped his self belief. He had to try things just like any other man but the difference is for some reason he was very driven cause knew he's the shit. He experiences life a lot from young age, has wins and loses but he doesn't worry about bad things happening.

His delusional sense of coolness makes him very stubborn. He often has that "my way or highway" attitude. He hates when someone questions him. That is also the reason why he's not open minded and doesn't like learning new things or breaking shit down cause then he feels he sucks or lacks something. Again, his whole confidence runs on the conviction that he's the shit so he protects it at all cost. However when things don't go their way, his whole frame crumbles and he turns into butthurt bitch.

Basically, his whole schtick is ego based confidence on that is drilled into him early on in his life and is reassured later on again and again. He is dominant, more or less asshole, has plenty of buddies who back him up, rolls in groups, is more or less handsome and fit.

everyone learns from something or someone.

Quote: (01-23-2017 01:51 PM)XXL Wrote:  

A natural is not some kind of prodigy kid with magic aura and innate talent for getting girls.

he's a guy who had some good things going on for him early on that gave him confidence and shaped his self belief. He had to try things just like any other man but the difference is for some reason he was very driven cause knew he's the shit. He experiences life a lot from young age, has wins and loses but he doesn't worry about bad things happening.
...
Basically, his whole schtick is ego based confidence on that is drilled into him early on in his life and is reassured later on again and again.

Late bump on the thread but this strongly resonated with me, in the opposite direction. Was talking a long time ago with another RVFer and we both strongly believed a lot of one's game/social persona is shaped very early by a handful of experiences that program you with a baseline level of self-confidence, sense of your level of value, calibration etc. His and mine were both bad (hard rejections, some public humiliations/bullying, etc), which led to us having to play catch-up as life went on. Especially if you are in a small community or stay with the same group of kids most of your young life, you get tagged with a certain social value early and it's hard to get out of that and command people treating you differently.

Some people naturally and intuitively have a personality and vibe (and look) that works for the environment they are in. Some are sociopathic and are born/made into a deep view of human behavior with no compunction about manipulating it.

Others aren't sick or gifted people but have a ZFG attitude that allows them to undertake some experiments and figure out what works for them before they get the image of being total losers; for this case it helps if you are physically attractive or have some other "cool" factor that people will use to give you a break on other things. Still others have a sequence of failures for whatever reason that nail into their minds that they are losers and not deserving of success, even if their basic profile is one that can grow into a decently attractive, confident, successful person.

It's especially helpful if you have some kernel of tactical success given to you, like a chick making a move on you (how many of us have a story like that as kindling for our sexual journeys) or a wise elder taking you under his wing and seeing to your confidence while he puts you in situations to learn (I was lucky to have this as well).

Guys come to us at 18 or 20 or even 30 asking for help on racking up some wins and getting to that abundance mentality, it's easy to tell them to "push through the challenge" and success will come, but it's really difficult for them to imagine the endgame because their entire experience has been a self-reinforcing pattern of failure. In light of the challenge of deprogramming that kind of shit, the strides we make and help other guys make are nothing short of spectacular.

One of my friends is certainly a natural and can control for pretty much the entire set you've got there as he has a brother that the majority of women I know think is better looking and yet doesn't do even half as well with the girls as his brother who literally walks into a club and has girls flock to him, both brothers are in the same social circle as well so it's not different friends, literally just one has natural game and the other doesn't. He doesn't apply any real game other than just being exactly the same as he is around the guys and yet has the girls eating out of his palm. Just pure natural assisted by being a very good looking guy.

I've only met one other person I'd say was a natural and it was the same basic gist.

I wonder if it helps to have a bunch of sisters. Unless they totally terrorize you, it could be a kind of trial by fire, and you would be used to their bullshit, as well as the bullshit of their friends, and by the time you got to high school, you would be completely unable to pedestalize a woman ever again. None of their tricks could catch you unawares, and you would be unguiltable and unshameable. ZFG would be in your bones.

Every now and then you come across an article about a dude who takes six or seven girls to the prom. I can't find the one I vaguely remember, but the kid was ok looking, kind of chubby, had a bunch of sisters, and seemed completely unimpressed with women.

Then there's this kid. Wonder what his story is. Imagine being immune to female tears at that age.

Yeah, of course no one is "born" a natural.

They just learn in a more natural way.

I've got a healthy dose of natural game, and I've got some buddies I ran around a lot with growing up that are the epitome of the concept. But I still had plenty of blue pill moments over the years even if I was getting a lot of ass, as did most any other player I knew, and to this day i can fuck up pretty good from time to time. That's "natural" too.

Even my my buddies with the best game had to work on it to get better; yes, including the ones who seemed like they were always being chased by birds. We just thought of it as "boys being boys" though and didn't overthink it or get too caught up with the failures - we wanted to get laid, so we went out and tried to meet women. Makes sense, right? I would think most normally-developing young men go through a similar process in their teens or twenties (although I've become more aware that the guys I tend to hang with skew my perception of "normal" a bit).

So, we would walk around town actively seeking out girls to approach. The malls. Rodeos (gotta love those "buckle bunnies"), concerts, fairs, and other events. Try to get a small handful of numbers and see if we could turn them into anything.

This was long before "The Game" was ever written and pua was a thing. Cell phones didn't exist and internet was super, super niche - never mind game forums. But we still used everyday life as a training ground for meeting women because that's just what guys naturally do when they are growing up, I guess, shitty rural logistics be damned. We were practicing approaching without ever conceptualizing that practice was what we were doing (and needing).

Hell, I remember we would hang outside college bars before we were even old enough to get in just to try and pick numbers off the older girls standing out front smoking cigarettes.

Over time we got old enough to go out and do our approaches in bars and whatnot instead of in the streets and malls. Enough years charming and seducing women and eventually you internalize the process, and it really does just feel pretty natural. In fact, the idea of going out intentionally just to approach seems laughable to me now when I can just meet women in the regular course of life. Don't get me wrong -- I still gravitate towards environments with a lot of female potential and get a little frustrated hanging with people who aren't at least a little bit on the hunt, psychologically -- but if some guy from the forum messages and says he wants to go "sarging," it's usually a cue that we're not going to get on very well with each other.

Too artificial to me now and almost feels like kid stuff. Instead, I just go out and try to enjoy life, and the personality and experiences I've acquired over the years get me laid. I guess that's the real difference between a "natural" and a pua guy.

I mean, even though a lot of those guys I ran with when I was younger ended up getting married and settled down, I reckon a lot of them would still make for a better wingman (if suddenly single) than a lot of guys who had to learn the hard way. Because they had some natural gifts and talents that helped them yeah, but also just because they developed their game at the same time they were developing their personalities, and it became a part of who they are - even if they're suburban dads and whatnot now, they're still smooth motherfuckers.

But we all still had to take some uncomfortable risks and learn at some point, regardless. You don't step out of the diaper a certified player.

70 percent had a girl teach him game?

You mean they learned game through their experience with an initial girl. Not that she sat him down and said “you’re a loser but I’m gonna teach u how to seduce me so u can fuck me”. Or else your social circle watches too much 50 shades of grey.

Beyond Borders,

Great post.

"they developed their game at the same time they were developing their personalities, and it became a part of who they are"

Huge point that ties in closely with what I was saying. I bet if you look at guys who have/had poor inner game, probably a good portion were not confident in the personalities they were developing in their youth, not confident making mistakes and learning from them to improve, etc. Thus the mental mantra of "I'm low value" gets hammered in. Guys able to get some kind of reinforcing success with girls when coming into their own in other ways have a totally integrated sense that the rest of their persona is congruent with socializing with and banging women.

"eventually you internalize the process, and it really does just feel pretty natural"

I have my bad streaks (write about them here sometimes) but when I take a step back I've noticed lots of behaviors and thought processes have become natural, automatic things for me. Tactics like opening and asking for numbers are still things I often have to think about, but lots of in-conversation stuff is subconscious, like not being self-deprecating, and getting the sense someone's trying to put me down or front and I have to respond - as well as non-verbal things like better posture, more dynamic use of eye contact, and reading a group's body language. It's a bit like learning a sport; nobody is born knowing how to pass the basketball or turn a double play, but most athletes learn those skills quickly and internalize how to read them and they become totally intuitive.

Quote: (07-25-2018 05:52 PM)BadgerHut Wrote:  

Beyond Borders,

Great post.

"they developed their game at the same time they were developing their personalities, and it became a part of who they are"

Huge point that ties in closely with what I was saying. I bet if you look at guys who have/had poor inner game, probably a good portion were not confident in the personalities they were developing in their youth, not confident making mistakes and learning from them to improve, etc. Thus the mental mantra of "I'm low value" gets hammered in. Guys able to get some kind of reinforcing success with girls when coming into their own in other ways have a totally integrated sense that the rest of their persona is congruent with socializing with and banging women.

"eventually you internalize the process, and it really does just feel pretty natural"

I have my bad streaks (write about them here sometimes) but when I take a step back I've noticed lots of behaviors and thought processes have become natural, automatic things for me. Tactics like opening and asking for numbers are still things I often have to think about, but lots of in-conversation stuff is subconscious, like not being self-deprecating, and getting the sense someone's trying to put me down or front and I have to respond - as well as non-verbal things like better posture, more dynamic use of eye contact, and reading a group's body language. It's a bit like learning a sport; nobody is born knowing how to pass the basketball or turn a double play, but most athletes learn those skills quickly and internalize how to read them and they become totally intuitive.

Spot on.

I think a lot of guys who struggled with game, and especially who still struggle now, would gain a lot of insights about why it has been such a challenge if they read "Mindset: The New Psychology of Success" by Carol Dweck.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FCKPHG/ref...TF8&btkr=1

Her research applies to learning just about anything, as well many other areas of life, but I think what you've alluded to is that stagnation in learning how to seduce women is reflective of much more global psychological issues.

The trick is to not take your mistakes personally and over-identify with them but to accept them as a part of learning, no matter what it is you're learning.

From the book description:

Quote:Quote:

In this brilliant book, she shows how success in school, work, sports, the arts, and almost every area of human endeavor can be dramatically influenced by how we think about our talents and abilities. People with a fixed mindset—those who believe that abilities are fixed—are less likely to flourish than those with a growth mindset—those who believe that abilities can be developed.

It sounds simple, but it goes deep, and the evidence is striking. Often even if we rationally know on a surface level that abilities can be developed, our behavior in the face of challenge and defeat tells another story about how we really feel. And that inner belief can spill over into every area of our lives.

Highly recommended read.

yea I think I have about 5 naturals in my social circle. So just guys who were into chicks at a young age, had female and male friends in high school, got laid multiple times in high school and then of course continued later without any PUA training.
Interestingly enough, some of them fall into extreme levels of oneitis when they're in relationships. One of them was even on the cover of a fitness magazine and rejected girls relationship offers left and right. Now he still has pretty much the same physique but his confidence is close to zero and he starts crying just thinking about his domineering girlfriend leaving him.

Another one has a girlfriend who works for the police. She regularly beats him up, though this guy is like 6'4, jacked and powerful.

So yea they're good with girls, but the true beta chode mindset still shines through.

Another guy was basically having threesomes at 18 and banging married women at that age too. He ended up getting married at 23.

Another one was in a relationship at 16 and stayed with his girl until he has about 25, he cheated on his girlfriend with about 200 girls during that timespan.

Note, these guys all seem very humble, so it's difficult to get them to open up and talk about their sexual experiences, numbers etc.