[Rocha]

The Portuguese "Jogo do Pau" (Stick game).

Seems like due to training in this martial art, the Portuguese WWI soldiers where deadly when charging forward with bayonet.

[YoungBlade]

^

That is phenomenal!

Good to see the old ways haven't died in their home nations.

[redbeard]

I still think this is gay as hell.

If you get into a fight, you're gonna be shit out of luck.

(Unless you're walking home from HEMA practice and have your trusty blade)

Here's a video of YoungBlade getting in a street fight:

I've been boxing the past few weeks, just because of this thread. Great workout, and I'm building a skill I can actually use.

[YoungBlade]

I'll make you the same offer I did scorpion.

[redbeard]

I'm down. I'll make mead (serious)

[YoungBlade]

When and where?

[Rocha]

(10-12-2017 09:24 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

I still think this is gay as hell.

If you get into a fight, you're gonna be shit out of luck.

(Unless you're walking home from HEMA practice and have your trusty blade)

Here's a video of YoungBlade getting in a street fight:

I've been boxing the past few weeks, just because of this thread. Great workout, and I'm building a skill I can actually use.

Of course nowadays nobody walks around with armours and swords, so of course boxing is more useful. But this is a martial art...and a deadly one.

I have not tried, but I have no doubt this builds a lot of functional strenght and a strong grip, which can be very useful for unarmed martial arts.

[Tex]

(10-12-2017 10:21 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

When and where?

I've seen Redbeard's hands, so the question really is:

when and where do you wanna get buried?

[sterling_archer]

Aha, again the story of HEMA being "gay" because you cannot carry sword and engage in combat on streets. I really suggest that proponents of this thinking go around world, especially Japan and explain to practitioners of martial arts how they shouldn't do it as they are unusable (gay) and they should adopt punching based sports. Fuck tradition right?

[Comte De St. Germain]

(10-13-2017 12:27 AM)Tex Wrote:  

(10-12-2017 10:21 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

When and where?

I've seen Redbeard's hands, so the question really is:

when and where do you wanna get buried?

I've met both and I'd put $100 on YoungBlade.

Wanna match my bet?

[MiscBrah]

I'll add $100 to the YoungBlade pool

[Tex]

(10-13-2017 12:47 AM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  

(10-13-2017 12:27 AM)Tex Wrote:  

(10-12-2017 10:21 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

When and where?

I've seen Redbeard's hands, so the question really is:

when and where do you wanna get buried?

I've met both and I'd put $100 on YoungBlade.

Wanna match my bet?

Here's what I stipulate:

If we're talking Redbeard and YoungBlade engage in a fight where there are three rounds, and each round composes of a timed HEMA bout, then a timed boxing bout, I'll put $200 that Redbeard wins.

But you can't call foul if Redbeard has different fitness or skill levels since last time you saw him!

[Comte De St. Germain]

(10-13-2017 01:53 AM)Tex Wrote:  

(10-13-2017 12:47 AM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  

(10-13-2017 12:27 AM)Tex Wrote:  

(10-12-2017 10:21 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

When and where?

I've seen Redbeard's hands, so the question really is:

when and where do you wanna get buried?

I've met both and I'd put $100 on YoungBlade.

Wanna match my bet?

Here's what I stipulate:

If we're talking Redbeard and YoungBlade engage in a fight where there are three rounds, and each round composes of a timed HEMA bout, then a timed boxing bout, I'll put $200 that Redbeard wins.

But you can't call foul if Redbeard has different fitness or skill levels since last time you saw him!

I was thinking it would just be a flat out MMA style brawl(UFC rules?). Best 2 of 3. No need for HEMA or boxing.

Either way. $100 from me and $100 from Miscbrah. Lets do it.

Edit: Or third round tiebreaker is MMA style and we do it your rules for Rounds 1 and 2.

[Dalaran1991]

I've been waiting for a RVF Fight Club this whole time. Best way for manly bros to settle differences instead of calling each other gay and shit on internet like bunch of chicks on their period.

Here's Redbeard stumbling into a HEMA club and realizes half of the guys there also do MMA and boxing and Jujutsu (which is the case in my club)

[Comte De St. Germain]

(10-13-2017 03:24 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  



I've been waiting for a RVF Fight Club this whole time. Best way for manly bros to settle differences instead of calling each other gay and shit on internet like bunch of chicks on their period.

Here's Redbeard stumbling into a HEMA club and realizes half of the guys there also do MMA and boxing and Jujutsu (which is the case in my club)

I've only done a few years of karate at a McDojo and plan to get back into a martial art after some motivation coming in from some of the forum dudes(namely Brick and TravelerKai+a few others) and hitting the gym.

On that note. I have very little experience fighting myself, but I've seen plenty of fights over the years in other venues and have learned to size people up based on that(to decide how fast my stickkin self can needs to make a run for it).

And so I know where to hedge my bets and I'm fairly certain this will be the easiest money I've made since the RVF poker night in Denver. $200 there and I'm feeling fairly lucky so another $100 here.

[Tex]

(10-13-2017 03:24 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  



I've been waiting for a RVF Fight Club this whole time. Best way for manly bros to settle differences instead of calling each other gay and shit on internet like bunch of chicks on their period.

Here's Redbeard stumbling into a HEMA club and realizes half of the guys there also do MMA and boxing and Jujutsu (which is the case in my club)

Half the guys in any given Dungeons & Dragons meet do MMA/boxing/BJJ too. I feel like MMA is what Tae Kwon Do used to be in terms of mainstream popularity.

Now if we do Marquees of Queensbury rules for 6 rounds, 3 minutes, 40 sec. rests, I'm going in $250. I can't go higher than that though since I'm just a poor broke college kid majoring in feminist historical analysis.



I also stipulate Moma picks the walk-out songs. I want to see YoungBlade and Red walk out to some Bomani.

[Dalaran1991]

(10-12-2017 06:40 PM)Rocha Wrote:  

The Portuguese "Jogo do Pau" (Stick game).

Seems like due to training in this martial art, the Portuguese WWI soldiers where deadly when charging forward with bayonet.

Rocha: replace the white guys for some Japanese and you have exactly what most men spent their early morning training pre-WWII. No shit these Portuguese even wear Japanese sparring armor in the last vid White people really need to stop appropriating Japanese culture.

The Japanese Banzai charge with bayonnet was nightmare for US Marines fighting in the Pacific zone. This whole bushido's attitude of spitting death in the face, coupled with nationalized bayonnet/kendo/sojutsu training made for a deadly kamikaze force.

Funnily enough though, both Bushido and the Chivalric code are some modern invention and didn't really exist in the respective times.

[sterling_archer]

True. Bushido of WWII would better be called Bullshido, same as these modern explanations of it. Similar to "chivalry codes" and "true knights".

Actually, during Sengoku Jidai (warring states period) whole purpose of the Bushi class was to kill for their lord. To kill is to bring honor to your lord. They used whatever weapons on battlefield they could have to do so. That is contrary to popular opinion that Samurai used only swords and spears and "hated" guns and bows. Samurai were in fact originally mounted archers and when Portugese came, they immediately copied arquebus and start using it. Some sources say that Japan of all countries had most guns in the world in 16th century! I don't know if that is completely true, but if it is, that is important information. Cannon were not really used though, and saw just limited service during some battles, notably, battle of Sekigahara in 1600.

During Edo period of peace, some idealized notions of conduct between warriors begun to appear. Also, when I say warriors here I mean primary Samurai class, not conscripted army known as Ashigaru. These kind of things appear during the times of peace, not war. During the war, whole attention is on finding better ways to kill your enemies.

Same story can be applied to Europe.

[reciproke]

(10-12-2017 09:24 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

I still think this is gay as hell.

If you get into a fight, you're gonna be shit out of luck.

Yeah bro! I recently met this Ice Hockey dude. What's he going to do without his pussy ass ice skates? Nothing! Is he going to crawl around on ice like a baby seal? Eating raw fish with his seal-mates?! What's he going to do when a polar bear attacks? Hit him with his hockey stick or what? What a loser. I always carry my 50cal when going to snow related events, like Holiday on Ice. I bet he doesn't even lift.

And that's not even all this fuck up does, he also plays football. Now get that, I am not even kidding here: He plays on pussy-ass meadows! Last time I checked streets were made out of asphalt. What is he going to do without that leathery ball on the street?! I mean, grown ups playing with balls! How gay is that! Am I right guys? At least play with an artillery shell, so you have something to defend you against ISIS.

Five minutes ago I just ran into this cyclist dude. What's he going to do on da street, man? Throwing his bycycle? I mean come one! And what's with the spandex suit? Is he trying to be aerodynamic or what? More like GAYrodynamic, right? If he gets into a fight, whats he gonna do? Cycle away into the sunset with the least air friction possible?

No bros, I stick to punching with comically oversized clown gloves. Because thats the pinnacle of human fighting tradition! Wait, thats actually HEMA, too? Naaah, don't believe it.

Not autistic greetings to my heterosexuel brethren

[Dalaran1991]

(10-13-2017 05:24 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

True. Bushido of WWII would better be called Bullshido, same as these modern explanations of it. Similar to "chivalry codes" and "true knights".

Actually, during Sengoku Jidai (warring states period) whole purpose of the Bushi class was to kill for their lord. To kill is to bring honor to your lord. They used whatever weapons on battlefield they could have to do so. That is contrary to popular opinion that Samurai used only swords and spears and "hated" guns and bows. Samurai were in fact originally mounted archers and when Portugese came, they immediately copied arquebus and start using it. Some sources say that Japan of all countries had most guns in the world in 16th century! I don't know if that is completely true, but if it is, that is important information. Cannon were not really used though, and saw just limited service during some battles, notably, battle of Sekigahara in 1600.

During Edo period of peace, some idealized notions of conduct between warriors begun to appear. Also, when I say warriors here I mean primary Samurai class, not conscripted army known as Ashigaru. These kind of things appear during the times of peace, not war. During the war, whole attention is on finding better ways to kill your enemies.

Same story can be applied to Europe.

Good to talk to equally informed people. Yeah, the whole Bushido and chivalric code is just part of the tendency to over romanticize the past, like in the novel Don Kihote.

That said, Japan always strikes me as weird because they are both practical and very ritualistic at the same time. Samurai were indeed mounted archers because killing someone before they could get close to you, then gallop away, is the most efficient method. The bow were much more important to the samurai than either spear or swords.

That said, their initial way of conducting war is nowhere near realistic. In pre-kamakura period battles - or skirmishes, since there were few large scale battles - consists of a bunch of mounted samurais hurling insult at each other, then each pick an opponent and start an archery contest. Basically like European jousting but with bows.

That's why at first they got their asses kick to hell and back by the Mongol because these later dont give half a shit about dueling and prefer to just steamroll people with a swarm of troops. The Jap adapted quickly and started drafting Ashigaru. Then there are these whole storm wrecking the Mongols ships and the samurai corsair-boarding their ships. In the closed confined of shipdeck fighting the katana (tachi at the time) kicked all kinds of ass. Thats when sword production starts becoming important.

They adopted again with arquebus. I too have seen that source you quoted claiming that Japan has more guns than any country in Europe. Not sure how credible it is but it certainly means guns were popular. The Shimazu clan and Oda Nobunaga success were thanks to extensive use of firearms.

Too bad they never get to the point of developing full plate armor. Imagine Japanese Samurai full plate armor, that would totally rock. Just a fantasy though given the lack of, and the inferior quality of Jap iron ore.

@back to HEMA: let me know if anyone successfully use shinai / katana against a longsword. This matchup bothers me for a long time and despite all my efforts I struggle to counter a longsword with a katana.

[sterling_archer]

(10-13-2017 07:26 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

That said, their initial way of conducting war is nowhere near realistic. In pre-kamakura period battles - or skirmishes, since there were few large scale battles - consists of a bunch of mounted samurais hurling insult at each other, then each pick an opponent and start an archery contest. Basically like European jousting but with bows.

@back to HEMA: let me know if anyone successfully use shinai / katana against a longsword. This matchup bothers me for a long time and despite all my efforts I struggle to counter a longsword with a katana.

I see that quoted numerous times but when you think about it, does it really make sense? How long would these battles last? I see variations of these story too. You mentioned insults and archery. I for example have read "stating your rank and achievements, looking for similar opponent for duel in sword/spear". Who knows if all this is really true. We know a lot about 16th century Japan onwards, but this Kamakura period survives through songs. Not many books from that period. So I doubt a lot of things of this period. We have same thing here in Croatia, where there a lot of people who agree that we don't know much about Croats from before 10th/11th century. We didn't write a lot.

Regarding swords. I think this wouldn't work (longsword vs. katana) but that doesn't come from my experience (not in HEMA) but more of a logic and sense. They are really very different weapons.

[MiscBrah]

I’d throw another $100 on YoungBlade if anyone else wants to get in on this

(10-12-2017 09:24 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

I still think this is gay as hell.

If you get into a fight, you're gonna be shit out of luck.

Whether Redbeard wins or loses, this line will go down in forum history.

[YoungBlade]

We've focused on blade a lot here. Archery is also a form of HEMA.

I love this guy's channel. He teaches you how to shoot primitive English longbow, but he always throws a life lesson in there, whether he means to or not.

[Dalaran1991]

Nice vid and I like the grandpa wisdom.

However I dont like stationary archery. That's completely unnatural, just like Olympic fencing vs HEMA. If we are talking about HEMA archery we need to talk about skirmishing, i.e firing on the move and taking in battlefield condition.

This guy is a good example. Fucker split an arrow in two MID-FLIGHT! Granted it's low speed, but hey.

Firing on the move (skirmishing), fast firing multiple arrows, firing over a shieldwall, picking up arrows and return fire... all of this are very important to period skirmisher (which was what archers were).

I think in Europe people got obsessed too much with the longbow, which to me is some form of (very) light medieval artillery or static firing line. So people forget that combat archery actually involves a lot of different ranges. Skirmishing range could be anywhere from 10m - 50m, and speed and accuracy is much more important than strength and draw weight at that distance.

If you are a viking supporting your shieldwall, you need to be able to fire over the shieldwall quickly and accurately at targets, or move fast to outflank and let loose at the enemy. Since resupplying is a problem, picking up arrow and returning fire are essential skill.

Archers have a lot of advantage in broken terrain like forest and hills, hence Robin Hood and companies. Feudal lords often have to hire professional hunter / foresters to protect their forest against poachers and sometimes even hunt them down. Men at arms with mails or even plated knights would get massacred in such a terrain. Oh, and then there's Agincourt but that's more due to the French being stubborn arrogant assholes rather than archery superiority.

Horseback archery deserves a separate thread. That's how the Huns and then the Mongols conquered the world...

@archer: agree that we will probably never know how things were done at some period in history. Take my home country for ex. Vietnam is famous for being the only country who successfully repelled the Mongol invasion (where both China and Europe fail) as well as constant Chinese aggression. It is considered one of the most militaristic society in ancient Asia, even more so than China. Yet we have ZERO info about weapons, armors and combat tactics pre 1000 BC. Damn shame....

[YoungBlade]

While I love Lars Andersen, he's in the top 0.1% of archers.

I do agree longbow is more like artillery, and shortbow is infinitely more useful in close quarters. I just don't see archers carrying that many arrows with them to last the whole battle before just switching to their sword and hacking at the enemy with their ridiculous Quasimodo shoulder strength.