[LeeEnfield303]

The logic fail is the term, "panacea." There is NO panacea, whether lifting or anything else....its all part of a whole.

[Merenguero]

(11-05-2015 02:56 PM)Kamikaze Wrote:  

Very motivating thread. I'm 5'10 at 175 lbs and I'm regularly at juuuust visible abs without flexing. One week of running and a few squats and ab ripper x, and I'm conceivably at 'model' physique, lookin like a less-white version of this dude:



and 4 inches shorter. Most girls I've been with say I have the best body they've ever had. One said it looked like I was photoshopped. It helps to be in a town full of manginas that would rather run marathons than barbell squat.

I've only had one experience at a club where a girl was on me purely because of body. She 'discovered it' by putting her hand under my shirt and feeling up. This is pre-RVF, I had no game, logistics were dog shit, etc etc, so I didn't close. That shit about having the right mentality and having your game-knife nice and sharp is true as hell.

But what matters is I got a little taste, and I believe that shit about hitting a certain threshold. Once you hit 200+ lbs with a serious physique, the game has to change.

My question is, given my current state of being in relatively good shape, is it realistic to get to 200+ lbs naturally? For a long time I've just wanted to get to 190 at least and it's just hard as fuck. If it helps any, I'm naturally a leaner dude. If I were a boxer, I'd proooobably be fighting at 160, getting knocked the fuck out by GGG (who I also have a similar build to).



Can a homeless-mans version of GGG, who's also 5'10, get to 200+ naturally?

I also have a build similar to the guy in the picture, although I think I have a little less definition and maybe five to ten pounds less of muscle. Looking like that from the neck down will easily put you in the top one to three percent in a place like D.C., top five to ten percent in Miami, and top ten percent in Southern California. Also, Gennady said that Curtis Stevens is not good boy.

[AnonymousBosch]

(11-05-2015 05:39 PM)ballsyamog Wrote:  

Anonymous Bosch, how long did it take you to get to that physique.... Right now I'm 5'8 and south side of 180 lbs and 15% body fat, I have pretty big arms and a big chest, still working on the abs though.... The attention I get when I'm at the club is insane and I'm staying in Toronto right now.. Last week during Halloween I went to a club and some of the girls would go out of their ways to touch my arms , back and chest. Approaching girls was very easy. I would just go caveman on the girls on the dance floor.... Since I started making serious gains in the gym , I have been getting significant attention from women

I've been lifting for over 25 years, aimed more for the cut / ripped Brad Pitt look in my 20's. Tended to train more for stamina / endurance / running / fighting.

I had decent size already, but started seriously training for size about two years back for a movie role. Think I was about 94 or so back then, about 108 in the picture above with about 19 months difference between them. About 100 kgs, the change in women was drastic.

I worked like a cattle dog for the size. Diet's a huge factor for me, as I'll allergic to egg and both milk protein and milk sugars. I don't eat anything I haven't prepared myself. The only pre-packaged foods I buy are base cooking ingredients.

I've seen enough transformations by now to know that two years of hard work and careful diet is consistently what it takes to go from schlub to a guy who gets quality female attention, which is why I think OP needs outside proper guidance before making such blanket statements about the usefulness of training. Everything after that two years is gravy, but that's the life change.

I knew an obese laywer - easily 140 kilos - in his forties who turned himself from an enormous slob to a GQ model in just two years through sheer force of will after his wife left him for another man. Dude worked like a champion and the fat just all turned to muscle, though he had to have plastic surgery to remove the excess loose skin around his waist. All the women in life were shocked at just how good-looking he turned out to be - he had a classic, strong sculptured chin under the triple one, and they all started saying he looked like Sean Connery. A few months more along, and he had a girlfriend half his age.

My dad: still works in security, built like a tank. Sixty-five. His current wife: a slim, long-haired, girly-girl at forty-two, who regularly brags at length about how much she loves her 'big, tough husband' on Facebook.

His reply? "Of course you do."



If only two years of effort can set you up for life, why wouldn't you dive in with passion and commitment?

[Fortis]

I know a dude who is 250 pounds at %5 body fat, looks like Ryan gosling, is 6'6 and hopeless with women. This therefore shows that muscle is not helpful at all for seduction. Your well fought time in the gym was totally useless. Sorry AB and Linux.

But seriously. What's up with the muscle denialism in this thread? What's funny is that it's all coming from duded who aren't particularly huge. It's like when dudes who have never cold approached deny game's effectiveness.

[johnfortunebg]

I was a scrawny kid that turned into a skinny fat teen/young adult.
I'm 182 cm.

When I started gaming, I was ~68 kilograms at ~17% bodyfat -skinny fat to the bone.
1.5 years ago, I started lifting. I go to the gym primarily because it feels good both during and after the workout. It's like I have energized myself for the whole day.

Because this is my primary motivation, I have not pushed myself very much and have not optimized my training and eating neither for hypertrophy nor for strength gains. I rather train for enjoyment.

Thus, despite the fact I go to the gym 5/6 times per week, I am currently 74kg @ ~14% bodyfat - not huge by any measure. In fact, when fully clothed I still look skinny.

This does not change the fact that the number of IOIs I am receiving when going out has jumped maybe by 200-300%. I also find that fewer women when I approach them dismiss me out of hand.

My subjective estimation is that I am able to get the same amount and quality of women now (in comparison with 2 years before) with maybe 30-40% less effort. And that is in a country in which one-night stand culture practically does not exist (meaning that the 'body' effect is more minimized by other factors than in the States/UK/wherever).

If my petty gains over an 18-month period of suboptimal training are enough for this, then certainly 2-3 years of concentrated efforts can lift you up quite more.

[BassPlayaYo]

(11-05-2015 10:08 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

I know a dude who is 250 pounds at %5 body fat, looks like Ryan gosling, is 6'6 and hopeless with women. This therefore shows that muscle is not helpful at all for seduction. Your well fought time in the gym was totally useless. Sorry AB and Linux.

He may be hopeless with women, but that doesn't mean women aren't checking him out. If he had game he'd be killing.

[Fortis]

That was sarcasm.

[heavy]

(11-06-2015 09:58 AM)johnfortunebg Wrote:  

I was a scrawny kid that turned into a skinny fat teen/young adult.
I'm 182 cm.

When I started gaming, I was ~68 kilograms at ~17% bodyfat -skinny fat to the bone.
1.5 years ago, I started lifting. I go to the gym primarily because it feels good both during and after the workout. It's like I have energized myself for the whole day.

Because this is my primary motivation, I have not pushed myself very much and have not optimized my training and eating neither for hypertrophy nor for strength gains. I rather train for enjoyment.

Thus, despite the fact I go to the gym 5/6 times per week, I am currently 74kg @ ~14% bodyfat - not huge by any measure. In fact, when fully clothed I still look skinny.

This does not change the fact that the number of IOIs I am receiving when going out has jumped maybe by 200-300%. I also find that fewer women when I approach them dismiss me out of hand.

My subjective estimation is that I am able to get the same amount and quality of women now (in comparison with 2 years before) with maybe 30-40% less effort. And that is in a country in which one-night stand culture practically does not exist (meaning that the 'body' effect is more minimized by other factors than in the States/UK/wherever).

If my petty gains over an 18-month period of suboptimal training are enough for this, then certainly 2-3 years of concentrated efforts can lift you up quite more.

While I have a naturally athletic build, and after having lifted for a year I'm pretty ripped, when I first started with just lifting weights occasionally (not pushing myself like you), girls were still noticing, despite me not really seeing any gains.

You confirmed what I thought. It doesn't matter size or shape of a man's body. It is meant to be pushed physically. Lifting weights will help, no matter your genetics.

And chics will notice before even you notice.

[OGNorCal707]

As far as I see it to get the outstanding body that is in the top 5% which will get automatic attraction from women the way Anonymous and Linux describe, you need to either:

a.) Have fantastic genetics, lets' face it some guys naturally have a larger frame and more muscular build, I know guys who can get the results in 6 months that would take a lot of guys 2 years to achieve. I know life isn't always fair, so it's kind of a mute point, but some have it easier than others.

b.) Use performance enhancing drugs, a lot of guys who don't have outlier genetics need to "gear up" if they want to get that next level body with mass, definition, and low body fat %. I'm not going to hate on steroid use, but I think it's well documented that some of our largest most jacked forum members are hardcore on the juice.

c.) Spend legitimately 5 + years in the gym with hard consistent weekly training (3 days min, but usually 5-6), in addition everything else about your lifestyle needs to be dialed in, your diet, your supplements, your sleep, etc.

Now I'm not trying to sound like a whiner or whimp, and maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but an important point here is that lifting weights is not a magic bullet, although it is highly recommend and will have positive affects for sure, no magical transformation is going to occur, unless you are fortunate enough to have amazing genetics, or are willing to go the extra mile and start on Test injections, etc.

A lot of guys aren't naturally blessed with their natural musculature and a lot of guys don't want to get onto steroids for whatever reason.

In my opinion guys like Anonymous and Linux are right that your body can be the X-factor that gets you laid from women, but in order to be that level you have to be absolutely exceptional, like in the top 5%, which both those guys appear to be.

To get to that level, your world has to largely revolve around bodybuilding which is cool if that's what you're into, but not everyone is going to be that into it, and not everyone is going to want to make those kinds of sacrifices to reach that level.

Those sacrifices may prove to be worthwhile and fruitful, but if your end goal is to simply sleep with women you can probably achieve similar results by investing your time in other avenues like building your finances, practicing yoga, playing in a band, cold approaching women, building your social circle, etc.

[RexImperator]

I wasn't saying, "don't bother lifting weights" or anything even close to that at all. Every man should absolutely be doing some kind of strength training. I think some misinterpreted my post as being an excuse for not working out.

Also, obviously lifting weights =/= a "great physique" however that is defined. And I can't comment on that because I don't have one.

But I haven't slacked off on the training. Apart from some time off for injuries when I switched to low weight/high reps, I've kept at it consistently.

To some extent I think the physique thing is function of your pre-existing hormonal balance, or the one you create through "supplementation"

If I plug my stats (I estimate about 20% BF) into an FFMI calculator it says about 23. Supposedly, the biggest you can get naturally is about 25. Let's suppose I drop 20 lbs (my goal for this winter/spring) down to 200. That weight on a 6' 1" frame is not even going to look "big", just kind of normal. In clothing it won't even be noticeable.

[StrikeBack]

I think you're underestimating how big 200lb looks on a 6'1" frame if you were 10~12% BF. That's a lot of lean body mass to throw around. Have a look at some heavyweight boxers (91kg / 200lb class), they're usually around the same height.

I tell you, getting leaner for you will be a game changer. I've always had the same muscle mass, but after hitting that sub 12% mark I'm getting exponentially more IOIs and much more intense physical responses from women during intimate moments, from kissing to sex. Even when they can't quite see your body, your face will look a lot more attractive. I get called handsome very often these days, never used to. You have seen that bodybuilding face transformation of 50 odd people, that shit is real.

And I'm short compared to you guys. Tall guys have all this amplified with their bigger frames.

[WanderingSoul]

It'll be very noticeable in clothing, if you wear the right clothing. Once you have a body you want to show off you will make sure your clothes fit just right.

And as SB already said, 200lbs at 10% bodyfat is pretty damn big.

[RichieP]

(11-05-2015 01:31 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

By forty, you become a Rock Star to women your own age.

(11-04-2015 04:19 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

Anonymous Bosch: I've seen dudes as big and bigger than you with absolutely no game, standing around getting nothing. Parked up by the bar looking frustrated/confused that their godlike physiques arent magnetically sucking the girls towards them.

Yeah, I know guys like this, and everyone points that out as evidence size doesn't attract. However, since I'm part of their lives rather than just observing them in bars, I notice how women pay more attention to them in everyday life, and how often they get randomly-opened by women affecting girlish behaviour, even if they're bad at following up on it.

Good response man. You're right, in the bar we're only seeing a snapshot of their lives.

What you wrote makes alot of sense. Compare that big dude to his skinny-fat equivalent and I'm sure there's a massive difference in the day to day attraction and opportunties that come there way, even with little/no game.

Personally, I find it hard to get and stay big though. In my 20's I packed on the size, got my squat and deadlift up to four plates, but just couldn't keep up with packing the food in. High metabolism. Now I'm athletic - rugby center size, ish - but not massive. I stopped making an olympic event out of eating and I hover around 85kg at 6'1". I guess you just gotta stay in the best shape you can with the time/resources you have.

[N°6]

(11-06-2015 11:48 AM)BassPlayaYo Wrote:  

(11-05-2015 10:08 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

I know a dude who is 250 pounds at %5 body fat, looks like Ryan gosling, is 6'6 and hopeless with women. This therefore shows that muscle is not helpful at all for seduction. Your well fought time in the gym was totally useless. Sorry AB and Linux.

He may be hopeless with women, but that doesn't mean women aren't checking him out. If he had game he'd be killing.

On the strength of the limited information that you have provided, I would suggest that this 'Ryan Gosling' intimidates women with his size and looks and as mentioned above, a little game would be very effective. His game could exploit that inner desire of women to be dominated and protected by such a man.

His failure with women is probably because he probably believes the kick-boxing chick TV propaganda that women are really independent and confident and who regularly approach men they like.

The reality is most women's eyes drop to the pavement when passing a man they like in the street.

[Kieran]

One point I forgot to make is that there is quite a bit of variety in what women respond to. For example the classic good looks and muscular athlete type will always be popular with women, but then the skinny effeminate pretty boy types are never short of female attention either (certainly from younger women). There's not really a one size fits all rule, just like for men, some of us like big tits and arses, while others like them smaller (I like a variety myself). I'm not sure the pretty boy types generate the same kind of sexual attraction that muscular more masculine types, but they're not short of pussy anyway.

[RichieP]

(11-07-2015 08:13 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

One point I forgot to make is that there is quite a bit of variety in what women respond to. For example the classic good looks and muscular athlete type will always be popular with women, but then the skinny effeminate pretty boy types are never short of female attention either (certainly from younger women). There's not really a one size fits all rule, just like for men, some of us like big tits and arses, while others like them smaller (I like a variety myself). I'm not sure the pretty boy types generate the same kind of sexual attraction that muscular more masculine types, but they're not short of pussy anyway.

Yeah I was just wondering about this today. I definitely know plenty of girls who genuinely find the skinny pretty boy / the "dandy" hot. Or even just tall/classic/handsome / "successful" look, without much of a physique. Seems popular in asia.


As you say though you cant go wrong with being athletic, fit, lean, holding some muscle. I think if you optimise for "sex machine" then you really cant go wrong, haha.

Another thing that's so key is POSTURE. Forward head position, slack spine and hunchback can kill even a well muscled physique. Just standing up straight makes a huge difference (but may require extensive stretching/exercise to get there).

[Fortis]

Guys it was a joke. Stop making a case study out of it.

[OGNorCal707]

Handsome face > Height > Muscular build > Well dressed/style


I know a couple guys who have all 4 qualities above, they are the one's who drown in the most pussy. The funny thing is their game is probably average compared to guys who have actively studied and practiced game, but they still attribute their success to having "good game." Of course no one wants to hear another guy brag about how he's some kind of Greek God, because he's 6 ft 4 in., buff, and handsome, but these guys still have that part of their ego that wants to believe that girls are attracted to them not because of their looks, but because of their cool personalities, charisma, humor, wit, etc. But when you look like that the threshold of charm, game, etc. you will need will be much lower than a more average will need to achieve similar results.

[rudebwoy]

I am sorry but all I am hearing is a bunch of excuses and theories.

Bosch and Linux, listed facts and stories. Linux even stated he was once small and his gym lifestyle is well documented on other threads.

The body thing goes deeper than having large muscles and flexing, there is a deeper pyschological meaning when it comes to women and men. When Bosch talks about women having that glazed look in their eyes, how many of you know what he is talking about. I know this look, nothing boosts your ego more than having some hottie grab your arm with that look on their face. We are talking pure animal instinct. I don't need to neg, use back turns, clown game or whatever to gain her attention.

With other men, there is a certain level of respect.

Sure the OP mentioned playing in a band, but learning an instrument takes time and dedication.

What if you do not have a handsome face or if you are not over 6 feet. I get the impression most guys on this forum fall into that category. We can ALL get a muscular body, some may have to work harder than others.

The best "gamers" I know in the notorious Toronto, have two out of those four traits listened above. I seriously don't know anyone who has all those four traits.

[realologist]

^^^^

I completely agree with you on this. All I see are excuses or rationalizations on why its not that important.

Seems like many here don't act like creating a body that attracts women by itself is part of game. It is. If you work to have a body that attracts women in that evolutionary and a deep psychological level women will respond better to your game.

They respond to your game better and you don't need to talk as much because your body does it for you. Where most men fuck up game is with their mouth piece so if you don't need to talk as much you have less opportunity to fuck up.

[Bushido]

OP started this thread but admits to being overweight and only lifting for 2 years. Dude, we have PMed a bit on this topic. You need to get on with that cut!

This forum is supposed to be about practice, not theory. If we are going to get any value out of discussions like these, let's leave the real conclusions to veteran lifters who are in top 5% shape. I for one appreciate having guys like Bosch around to set the record straight.

(11-07-2015 01:41 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Handsome face > Height > Muscular build > Well dressed/style

Sounds like something right out of PUA Hate.

I'll bite though.

Women's perception of a "handsome face" in a man is influenced by many factors. Charm, style, confidence, humour...i.e. game. Basically, if she likes the overall package you are "handsome" in her eyes. Height...well I can't really argue with that.

For the record, I'm not the best looking guy in the world, but I've been called "handsome" more times than I can remember.

One time I remember being on a date with an 18 year old fashion model from an Anglosphere country. She was repeatedly saying how handsome I was. Honestly, I had to laugh to myself inside. After that, I banged her brains out. It really is good to be born a man.

[WanderingSoul]

I'm rolling up to 195. I need to cut also. I think I've built enough muscle now that I can cut down to 10% without feeling *too* small.

Maybe we should do a RVF 90 day challenge and help motivate each other.

[WestIndianArchie]

The Iron Game is deeper than v-shaped back and a 6 pack.

1. Muscles - that's the obvious benefit
- Muscles stir a chick's loins on some reptilian shit.

2. Posture
- You see more people because you're not looking at the floor
- More people see you because you're walking erect
- You see the girls that have been checking you out, but you never noticed. So now you have more opportunity

3. Diet
- More energy than someone on a regular Western Diet
- Possibly some cooking skills

4. Better fitting clothing
- Until of course you get too jacked....
- When you're jacked, the clothes take on a different meaning. "oh that's a big guy who can dress"

5. The Deterrence Factor
- Some chicks can be ambivalent about muscles, no dude will be.

6. The Testosterone Factor
- You NEED to bang when you lift properly and regularly. That desire can push you through approach anxiety, it can also give you an edge so that you're focused but not a horn dog.

7. Discipline
- A good body shows the world discipline.
- The biggest bonus is developing that discipline in yourself.

If I eat right, sleep properly, avoid temptation, really work hard at the gym - I can accomplish these goals. But it means I have conquered my mind.

That iron will can then be deployed elsewhere in your life.

That ability to take on a long project where most of the steps are tedious, boring, and hard is not something you can buy.

But truth be told, it might not be a panacea for ATTRACTION.
It can very well be a panacea for LIFE.

WIA

[RexImperator]

Great post WIA

[N°6]

(11-05-2015 05:42 PM)LeeEnfield303 Wrote:  

The logic fail is the term, "panacea." There is NO panacea, whether lifting or anything else....its all part of a whole.

Yes the use of the pejorative term 'panacea' is often used by someone whose mind is already made up.

I don't think the most successful body builder on this forum would say that his interest is a panacea for attraction problems. Most men's problems is due to the decline of Beta-provider game vis-à-vis women at their fertile and most desirable peak in a liberal sexual market where the supply of sex is pushed up the bell curve to the actual or perceived top 20% (or reserved through female celibacy for the eventuality of meeting a man of the top 20 fifth.)

If there is one thing that I got out of my PUA days, it was 'lifestyle game' whereby I learnt how important it is to improve my life holistically. Life style game is good for times of female abundance and for times when I am in MGTOW mode by choice of by decree of dating market forces. Weight lifting is a basic building block to a lifestyle that is good for our health and therefore our ability to attract women.

Bottom line, the women I am most attracted to, go to the gym a lot. If I allow for hypergamy, my body cannot be unkempt if I am to begin to attract them. Also, no-matter what the media says about the vanilla missionary position, a man needs to ravish a woman in this position. This takes core strength and the use of all the natural angles available - ie the belly has to go and replaced with strong and flexible ab muscles.