[TheWastelander]

(12-18-2014 12:48 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 12:21 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 11:47 AM)LaCobra Wrote:  

Who the fuck are you to tell any Sovereign Nation what to do?

I'm the fucking Wastelander.

Thanks for that, got a laugh.

I think there was a deal to leave them alone after the Missile Crisis in return for taking the missiles out. Plus, the USA was busy in Vietnam for years, then in the Middle East.

Five RT flights a day from Miami to Havana will bring that regime down pretty quickly. Just the cash flow alone.

They might already be talking about some transition behind the scenes. Raul could end up making a name as the Gorbachev of Cuba.

What's up with Fidel? He must be totally Al Z. Heimer now.

Business opportunity: Lease some ferry boats to take 1950s classics from Cuba, and import 2005 Toyota Corrollas and Honda Civics.

I hope you're right. That's all I can say.

The Cuban people deserve better than the Castros and internet trolls who've never lived in a communist country yet defend their government make me wonder what the hell they're smoking.

If the Cubans loved it so much there wouldn't be so many risking their lives and the lives of their families to float to Florida on makeshift rafts.

I'd also like to add that anyone who thinks the American embargo is the reason behind Cuba's woes is misguided. They've been able to trade with the rest of the world for a long time now. The Castros should loosen their reins on the Cuban economy.

[Alpharius]

(12-18-2014 11:52 AM)LaCobra Wrote:  

After katrina, Cuba offered to send doctors, USA refused.

Their doctors (which saved my life in El Salvador) are often more like physician assistants in the US.

Bush made a lot of mistakes during Katrina, not seizing the moment to engage in a little diplomacy was one of them.

Actually, come to think of it, Bush made a lot of mistakes during his entire presidency. Obama's been dealing with his shit this whole time. Nothing worse than a job where your main responsibility is fixing the shit your predecessor broke.

[The Reactionary Tree]

I am calling bullshit on this Cuba has such great infrastructure. If Cuba is truly this grand socialist paradise, then why are people swimming through 90 miles of shark infested waters to come the USA with literally nothing?

You want to know why the infant mortality rate is so low in Cuba? It is because patients have zero rights when it comes to reproduction. If an ultrasound shows fetal abnormalities, the fetus is aborted regardless of what the mother wants. That helps keep the infant mortality rate low when you are killing them off before they can even be born.

Patients have no rights. Their is no such thing as patient privacy (no HIPAA). There is no such thing as medical malpractice lawsuits either.

This comes from a report from Katherine Hirschfeld who spent almost a year in Cuba studying their healthcare system in the late 90s.

Re-examining the Cuban Health Care System

Nuggets from the report:

Quote:

Case #1: Reproductive Choice
The Cuban Ministry of Health [MINSAP] expects physicians to structure their clinical
interventions to achieve the Ministry’s annual health goals. As with other sectors of the
economy, MINSAP sets statistical targets that are viewed as the equivalent of production
quotas. The most carefully guarded of these health targets is the infant mortality rate.
Any doctor who had an unusually high rate of infant deaths in his or her jurisdiction
would be viewed as having failed in a number of critical respects.
One of the family doctors I worked with in Havana was quite politically militant and took
these health goals very seriously. One day during my clinic observations I observed her
scheduling an ultrasound for a pregnant woman.
"What happens if an ultrasound shows some fetal abnormalities?" I asked.
"The mother would have an abortion," the doctor replied casually.
“Why?” I queried.
"Otherwise it might raise the infant mortality rate.”

Quote:

Case Study #2: Medical Malpractice
One family doctor told me that she once led an instructional seminar for medical students
at the University of Havana. During the seminar they reviewed several problematic
cases, one of which involved a patient who had died due to mistakes made by a doctor.
The case was included as a warning to the students to be careful in following established
treatment protocols and surgical procedures.
After the seminar, one of the medical students approached the doctor and told her that
after reading the case file, she realized that the patient in the case study was actually a
close relative of hers. She said that the doctors who treated him told her family he had
died of natural causes, and she was very traumatized to find he had actually died from
malpractice. The doctor running the seminar sympathized with the student’s grief and
anger, but told her it would be better if she kept quiet and made no complaint against the
hospital. To do so would be to risk being labeled a political dissident or a
counterrevolutionary. The student reluctantly concurred.

Some patient stories from the report:

Quote:

Case 1: Pepe's Tooth (as told by Pepe)
When one of my wisdom teeth started coming in it hurt terribly so I made an appointment
with a friend of mine who's a really good dentist to take it out. Well, when we first tried
to schedule it there weren't enough materials available, so we had to put it off for a while,
until he could hoard back enough stuff [surgical materials]. First there weren't any
needles. Then no sterile water, then no surgical thread. About three or four months went
by before we could actually do the surgery. He had gradually stashed things away as he
found them, and then, since he was a friend of mine, he had me come in on a Saturday
when the clinic was closed to do it.

Quote:

Case 2: Sylvia’s Tooth (as told by Sylvia)
They [the dentist] tried to give me acupuncture instead of anesthesia when I had a tooth
pulled. These two nurses poked needles in my head, but I don't think they really knew
what they were doing...As soon as the dentist started to work on my tooth I let out these
screams, screamed like crazy, and they still stood there talking... Luckily a nurse friend of
mine was working in the next room and she came and gave me a shot [of Novocain].
'Here' she said, as she pulled the syringe out of her pocket, 'I saved this back for you.'
Thank God she showed up.

Yea... Sounds like a fan-fucking-tastic health care system.

Best. Health care. Ever.

[kosko]

(12-18-2014 03:34 PM)The Reactionary Tree Wrote:  

I am calling bullshit on this Cuba has such great infrastructure. If Cuba is truly this grand socialist paradise, then why are people swimming through 90 miles of shark infested waters to come the USA with literally nothing?

You want to know why the infant mortality rate is so low in Cuba? It is because patients have zero rights when it comes to reproduction. If an ultrasound shows fetal abnormalities, the fetus is aborted regardless of what the mother wants. That helps keep the infant mortality rate low when you are killing them off before they can even be born.

Patients have no rights. Their is no such thing as patient privacy (no HIPAA). There is no such thing as medical malpractice lawsuits either.

This comes from a report from Katherine Hirschfeld who spent almost a year in Cuba studying their healthcare system in the late 90s.

Re-examining the Cuban Health Care System

Nuggets from the report:

...{..cut..}..

Yea... Sounds like a fan-fucking-tastic health care system.

Best. Health care. Ever.

For your source:

Quote:

Eliciting critical narratives regarding the health care system therefore necessitated informal research methods, and much of the information I gathered on these topics is fragmented and anecdotal.

I have never said Cuba is some gleaming beacon of hope, it performs better then Canada by a bit.. my country can do better also but I am not going to slag it around like you have simply for bias.

China aborts deformed fetuses also. In Japan abortions are used as a means of birth control, it has the lowest infant mortality rate age in the world. America aborts 52% of Black children. If your going to throw mud, toss it all around. Throw your shame on those places as well.

So instead of just looking at collected health data she goes cherry picking for stories. Canadians go down to Cuba to get certain specialist care all the time if they can get it quicker then in Canada since it will cost less then in America.

Go ahead and believe some woman's hamster paper of interviews with Cubans who were likely trolling, or you can look at WHO and actual health data from the country. It is far from idea but in terms of delivering basic primary health care to its citizens it success better then the USA. Period. Of course if you want specialist care like dentist work the USA is the top in the world, but for basic healthcare it is ranked the same as Eastern Europe and Romania, other places which have crony health care systems.

American's have this high mighty view on health when they have one of the most sickly and unfit population on earth. It has never made any sense. The rest of the world laughs at America. IF you have the cash, sure you get taken care of well but the majority of American do not have good access to reliable healthcare and it shoes in the health outcomes of the American population.

But healthcare it is what it is. It is the best healthcare system for Cuba, and the best model for poor and developing nations to implement and mimic as the results have clearly shown its success. Cuba can't waste money building glass and marble Hospital complexes that look like luxury condo buildings. It can't waste money on circle jerk medical systems that frustrate doctors and just create more waste in spending. It runs a simple and streamline system in which it has to just deliver simple and basic health care. But that alone puts it ahead of America because even with the highest per person spending on health on earth, America still can't even achieve the basics on a elite level. The idea of preventative medicine isn't even mainstream in America as that would eat away at private health profits. In developing nations with good sound systems more money is spent keeping people healthy and away from pricey treatments versus here in the west where we throw expensive solutions at problems that are cheap to prevent.

Now you see Americans trying to piggy back onto the Cuban MGI community model American schools have take the idea and re-branded it as something new and cool when more modest places have been doing it out of need for decades now.

If you want to talk about the economics of Cuba then I can agree with you on many things. But trying to toss mud on the Cuban health system, as a American, can't be taken seriously. So many flaws in your own system that a tiny poor isolated nation such as Cuba performs better. That means more introspective looks at your own local system is needed, not at others.

[Alpharius]

Cuba has a good medical system. It's not great, but their medical students are well trained (equivalent to PAs in the US system) and a good portion of their reputation comes from their brilliant fucking foreign policy campaign of sending Cuban medical staff across the world. Medical staff from Cuba work in 103 countries, and they take students for free from anywhere on Earth, including the US. Students get free med school in exchange for a couple years of service in poor communities across the globe. While abroad they recruit new med students from local populations. Cuba as a state also trades its medical expertise in exchange for highly skilled workers and expensive commodities from other countries i.e. Venezuelan engineers and oil. A small portion of these doctors are on hand at any given time to form a rapid response team for anywhere in the world that may need them. Tsunami? Earthquake? Hurricane? Ebola? Godzilla? They're there.

Imagine if the US had a system like that. Peace Corps is great but can't accomplish nearly as much as the Cubans have. Cuba sends more medical staff across the world than the entirety of the G8. That's how you build a reputation, and the US would be smart to do similar. I guess I have learned something in grad school...

The US medical system is byzantine, but considering the challenges of having a privatized medical system that deals with 320 million people of every conceivable background, it could be much, much worse. With the exception of the shittiest outlier clinics and hospitals in the US each is clean and has staff who are certified and relatively competent. You'll pay a fucking fortune and may have to wait forever if you have anything less than a life threatening injury, but you can say with a level of certainty that you probably won't die of something preventable. Unless you're poor. Or a minority. Or both.

[Matt Forney]

Anyone who thinks that the U.S. reopening relations with Cuba won't change the government there needs to know how the flow of capital transformed Southeast Asia.

Before the Vietnam War, most of the countries in SE Asia were poor backwaters. Thailand, hedonism capital of the world, was a failed state with dozens of Communist insurgencies running around in the bush. Singapore was a dirt-poor colonial outpost. The Philippines was a shithole with a couple of military bases.

The massive capital infusion that was the Vietnam War reshaped the entire place. U.S. soldiers stationed at Clark AFB or off on R&R in Bangkok injected their paychecks into the local economy looking for beer and hookers. All that foreign exchange made each country that wasn't directly involved in the war richer. More money meant a wealthier populace, meant that the revolutionaries running around the jungle had less and less reason to overthrow the government. Thailand was the biggest beneficiary, but the Philippines, Singapore and the other neutral countries won out as well.

And this was in countries on the other side of the world. Cuba is less than a hundred miles off the Florida coast. Do you have any idea how much bigger the infusion of American money is going to be here?

This is a complete game-changer. As soon as the Cubans get a taste of Yankee money and American culture, the communist government is going down. If you've ever read The Exile, it's going to be something like that. What Russia was to Generation X, Cuba will be to the Millennials: a land where foreign men are God.

Edit: As an aside, if you're an American and someone tries to poo-poo you for going on vacation to Thailand, the Philippines or anywhere in SE Asia, just tell them that your taxes helped build up the place and you're just getting a return on your investment.

[Sonsowey]

(12-18-2014 07:01 PM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

Anyone who thinks that the U.S. reopening relations with Cuba won't change the government there needs to know how the flow of capital transformed Southeast Asia.

Diplomatic relations with Cuba doesn't mean Cuba's laws about foreign investment etc. will change.

The entire rest of the world has relations with Cuba, capital from Germany or China hasn't rolled in and changed the country.

[kosko]

Energy must be its biggest cockblock. They likely have to jump through hoops to get USD$ to buy oil on the markets.

There has been talks that Cuba has off-shore oil reserves, Florida has been in the dark banning off-Shore drilling for decades now and all Cuba needs is a fat loan from the developing BRICS Bank and it can get serious exploratory work on the go.

America would shit mounds if Cuba was ever to exploit oil so close to its own shores.

[Mekorig]

(12-18-2014 11:47 AM)LaCobra Wrote:  

Having the best health system in the world and the highest rate of alphabetization is suffering? Maybe Cuba should tell you to reform your government.

LaCobra, we are from the same country, i know the propaganda the troskos create about Cuba around here. But i have meet plenty of cubans. First, dont trust any stadistic from the cuban goverment, they are worst than the INDEC. Trust me in that one.
Second, the doctors instruction level is not the best, at all. Cuba is "exporting" doctors to Venezuela, Bolivia and Brazil, and in the last two countries, specially in Brazil were the troskos are not strong enough to quell the critics, the local doctors are complaining about the cubans instruction level. Also, it does not help the level of desertion of these doctors, that escape when they can, and have "guardians" to avoid that. The funniest part is the La Pampa governor is trying to get a deal with Cuba to bring doctors to the province.

[freeuser]

(12-17-2014 12:43 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

After the Soviet Union fell we should've told them to reform their government or we'd invade and fuck them six ways from Sunday.

They honestly deserve it. Castro wanted the USSR to nuke us.

The Cuban government has been an asshole and troublemaker for decades. Normalizing relations with them is stupid since the same people are still in power and I don't see how we stand to benefit from it.

I don't like people who, in the past, wanted to kill me and remain unapologetic about that.

Quote:

Explain which part of that is paranoid or irrational? Or where I implied they pose a current threat to the US?

The Cuban people have suffered at the hands of their Communist government. Blaming their problems on the US is misguided as hell.

How many times has the US Government/CIA try to assasinate Castro? Also, remember the bay of pigs? No wonder that the Cuban regime isn´t really fond of the US Government.

You´re right that the Cubans have suffered a lot, but thanks in large part, to the 50yr embargo. Which by the way, has been completely useless. It has only given more legitimacy to the Castros and the party. To open up the Cuban market and society is the best and smartest thing to do, if you want to get rid of communism and increase economic development for the Cubans.

[freeuser]

(12-17-2014 01:22 PM)Icepasian Wrote:  

Welp. The Democrats just lost Florida for the next 50 years. I imagine there are thousands of Cubans in Miami changing their voter registrations as we speak.

Cuban Americans tend to be more conservative than other Latinos. They use to vote Republican anyway. The Democrats are not going to loose a lot of voters. But in fact, this move is probably welcome by most Hispanics, since chocking the Cuban Economy with the embargo wasn´t probably very popular in the first place.

[YossariansRight]

Some interesting info here: http://www.therealcuba.com

[The Reactionary Tree]

I just want to go to Havana and sleep with Cuban broads.

[DJ-Matt]

We made it to Havana!

[TheWastelander]

(12-19-2014 05:57 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

(12-17-2014 01:22 PM)Icepasian Wrote:  

Welp. The Democrats just lost Florida for the next 50 years. I imagine there are thousands of Cubans in Miami changing their voter registrations as we speak.

Cuban Americans tend to be more conservative than other Latinos. They use to vote Republican anyway. The Democrats are not going to loose a lot of voters. But in fact, this move is probably welcome by most Hispanics, since chocking the Cuban Economy with the embargo wasn´t probably very popular in the first place.

Cuba has been able to trade with the rest of the world as freely as they wanted to for a long time. It's Castro and the communists that have ruined them. Typical Marxist-Leninist basketcase economy.

Are you one of the blame-America-for-everything leftists or just ignorant of history?

[8ball]

(12-19-2014 11:59 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 05:57 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

(12-17-2014 01:22 PM)Icepasian Wrote:  

Welp. The Democrats just lost Florida for the next 50 years. I imagine there are thousands of Cubans in Miami changing their voter registrations as we speak.

Cuban Americans tend to be more conservative than other Latinos. They use to vote Republican anyway. The Democrats are not going to loose a lot of voters. But in fact, this move is probably welcome by most Hispanics, since chocking the Cuban Economy with the embargo wasn´t probably very popular in the first place.

Cuba has been able to trade with the rest of the world as freely as they wanted to for a long time. It's Castro and the communists that have ruined them. Typical Marxist-Leninist basketcase economy.

Are you one of the blame-America-for-everything leftists or just ignorant of history?

You are right the government is mostly ignorant and makes bad decisions but one fact is undeniable. The american embargo has had a devastating effect and no the Cubans have not been allowed "freely" to do trade with the rest of the world. The US has asserted pressure on every single country that does trade with Cuba. More importantly this embargo has not helped the US achieve anything other than keeping "revenge" hopes alive for some segments of the Cuban american lobby.

Also all this talk about american goods coming in and opening the eyes of the Cubans is laughable. Cuba has a fairly competitive tourism industry, they are accustomed to foreigners. In the early 2000s all you had to do was go to walmart and buy a bunch of lotions/shampoos/perfume for like 20 bux and the girls there were all over you, no these were not pros. Nowadays cubans will come up to you in tourist areas and offer you money if you sell them products that they can't get. The more touristic the area the richer and more indifferent they are.

The other misconception is that cuba has a qualified workforce...are you fucking kidding me? The unemployed rate in communist countries is usually 0 for a reason. They create 5 positions for the job of one! Cubans are lazy, the pimps/whores/cigar sellers all have a full time job during the day time but somehow use up all their time hustling naive tourists. Anytime you see a construction job...there is one guy pretending to drill and 4 other doing absolutely nothing. If you are there for week, the whole may have been dug a total of 3 inched deep...


The "opening up" of Cuba needs to be slow and should take decades, the last thing America needs is a sudden regime change and hundreds of thousands of immigrants seeking political asylum on its shores. The US needs to go in with billions$ worth of grants and "soft" loans conditional of course that the contracts for building infrastructure are awarded to american companies.

[TheWastelander]

Reminds me of the old Soviet joke.

"So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work."

[Seth_Rose]

When Fidel first got sick he sent for a doctor from Spain. Can't imagine Obama having to find a doctor from abroad to treat him if he ever got sick.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/1...html?_s=PM

[PeruLover12]

(12-19-2014 02:16 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Reminds me of the old Soviet joke.

"So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work."

Read all your posts about Cuba in this thread. Just remember something, if your government had not propped up a dictator called Batista and suppressed the demands for democratic reform in Cuba by the general populace or turned the island into a corrupt brothel then maybe Castro would not have taken over with huge support.

Also I don't think you can lecture Cuba's leadership on morals. It was the CIA who helped plan the bombing off the civilian Air Cubana airliner which killed all 73 passengers on board. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_Flight_455. You still have not handed over the bomber who openly lived in Florida. Go USA!

You seem to pontificate a lot on Cuba and the wider socialist world, how many times have you been? As for your statement about nuking countries for having a different system of government than the one you believe in,

[PeruLover12]

(12-19-2014 03:52 PM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  

When Fidel first got sick he sent for a doctor from Spain. Can't imagine Obama having to find a doctor from abroad to treat him if he ever got sick.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/1...html?_s=PM

Means little. There are American sport-stars who have travelled to Europe to visit certain specialists after injuries. Does that mean there are no specialists in America? No it just means that top specialists sometimes happen to come from a different country.

Some people will choose to deny facts about a country simply because they don't like it's system of government/leader. That's the height of blinkered stupidity ( comment not aimed at you specifically Seth. )

[TheWastelander]

(12-19-2014 05:25 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 02:16 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Reminds me of the old Soviet joke.

"So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work."

Read all your posts about Cuba in this thread. Just remember something, if your government had not propped up a dictator called Batista and suppressed the demands for democratic reform in Cuba by the general populace or turned the island into a corrupt brothel then maybe Castro would not have taken over with huge support.

Also I don't think you can lecture Cuba's leadership on morals. It was the CIA who helped plan the bombing off the civilian Air Cubana airliner which killed all 73 passengers on board. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_Flight_455. You still have not handed over the bomber who openly lived in Florida. Go USA!

You seem to pontificate a lot on Cuba and the wider socialist world, how many times have you been? As for your statement about nuking countries for having a different system of government than the one you believe in,

I never said the US was perfect. It's done plenty of shitty things and I've said as much in this very thread:

Quote:

America's done plenty of wrong but saying we were as dirty as the Soviets isn't true. They fucked up a lot of Africa, the 'stans and half of Europe.

Furthermore, I never said a goddamn thing about nuking countries for having a different system of government than the one I believe in. I'm going to be a nice guy and assume English isn't your first language.

What I said was:

Quote:

Castro wanted the USSR to nuke us.

That's a historical fact.

[Easy E]

Obama has said he wants to lift the embargo on Cuba. That isn't going to be easy. He would need Congress to agree, and next year both the House and Senate are going to be Republican controlled. Still, the genie is out of the bottle now that he has decided to restore diplomatic relations with Cuba. It might take a Democratic House and/or Senate sometime in the future to completely remove the embargo, but the writing is on the wall: the end of the economic blockade is only a few years away.

[andy]

I don't see why there is no reason to NOT lift the embargo, we could have pop with real sugar, instead of HFCS, and a few years of being able to fuck good Cuban women, before they become feminized, and subject to the same crazy America bitchitis. This is what I'm afraid of, sure they get our money, and we get their goods, but our fucked up feminized culture will follow, like it has in Poland, and elsewhere.

[The Father]

(12-17-2014 12:51 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

As far as us being "BFFs" with China, we became "friends" with them because it was in our interest to further the Sino-Soviet split. Enemy of my enemy sorta deal. There's nothing nearly as significant to be gained here.

Nothing to be gained? NOTHING to be gained?? Have you SEEN Cuban bitches in Miami?? Now that's an import market we need to "tap"...

[PeruLover12]

(12-19-2014 05:42 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote:

Castro wanted the USSR to nuke us.

That's a historical fact.

A historical fact that someone who had no way of carrying it out said. So what? You've invaded Cuba through the CIA, tried to destroy it economically for decades, tried murdering Castro a hundred times and then get but hurt when he supposedly ( where is the source exactly? An newspaper article means shit we need the transcripts to use the word 'fact') makes a comment. Only one country has ever nuked civilians dude, not Cuba or the USSR, only one. Who might that be? Who has Cuba ever illegally invaded? Bombed? Nuked? Seized resources from? Overthrown democratically elected governments? Extraordinarily renditioned?

Get some perspective and see things from the other side a little before calling for invasions and fucking country's 6 ways from Sunday. Believe me between Cuba and the US there is only one country stirring up shit in the world and it ain't the little socialist island in the Caribbean.