[berserk]

No, of course not, people are with some exceptions mostly the same across the world. It doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't attack a violent and oppressive cult such as Islam. We are actually doing a lot of people a favor. How do you think it feels to be bound on hand and foot in what you are allowed to do or not and you can't speak out about it or be shunned? To be killed by your own relatives if you date outside your religion, to have acid thrown in your face because you didn't want to marry some guy, to be shot in the head because you wanted to go to school? To get 100 lashes by a horsewhip because you kissed a girl in public?

You're not doing 'normal' muslims any favors by cow towing to islam. It would be much better for most muslims if their imams lost a lot of power.

[cardguy]

@Teedub - yeah I guess so. lol

[cardguy]

As for Muslims - isn't it a case where the solution would be worse than the problem?

You cannot deport millions of Muslims - so surely it is best just to try and get along?

Maybe over time they will become more tolerant. Maybe not. But it is the only realistic hope we have.

The key difference between Islam and Christianity is that the Bible is a collection of parables and stories written by men.

Whereas - to a Muslim - the Koran is the literal word of God.

As such - in Christianity - there is a tradition of interpretating what was written and updating it. But with the Koran - you do not have that freedom. Everything in there is (according to them) the 100% true word of God. It could tell you to kill your Father and fuck your Mother - and to a Muslim they would have to seriously consider it since the Koran is the very basis of their religion.

If you respect people's right to be dumb and religious. I think you have to make an allowance for the contradictions it throws up. You cannot have true religious freedom whilst also upholding all human rights.

So which is the more important?

To a secular person - 'human rights' are the religion of our day.

But to a religious person - religion out-trumps that. Which is why Jews get away with circumcising their kids - even though it is wrong, an infringement of human rights and stupid.

There are no easy answers. Since the basis of most human rights is the freedom of religion. But what do you do when those religious views start impingning on other people's human rights?

The people who came up with the concept of universal human rights were raised in a Christian culture. As such - they were subconsciously influenced by Christian concepts of right and wrong when drawing up such principles.

If the Muslims ran the world - and Muslim secularists drew up charters of universal human rights. You can be sure they would be a little different to those written by people raised in Christian cultures. Even if both sets of people were not followers of religion themselves. Just the cultural influence of the particular religion they were raised with would have a subtle impact.

I am a bystander to such debates. Since I am an atheist and a nihilist. I just think that the Western secular ideas of right and wrong - is largely influenced by the Christian traditions we have. And as such - it is unfair to use such secular ideas to judge other religions since those religions have different standards.

For instance - I am a vegetarian and think killing animals for meat is evil. I am guessing Hindus have similar feelings - whilst Christians do not.

As such - a universal set of human rights written be a secularist in a Hindu country might make that a big issue - whereas in a Christian culture such a concern is totally overlooked.

[svenski7]

cardguy: I think you would be surprised by how many Christians feel that the Bible IS the literal and immutable word of God just as Muslims feel about the Koran.

To me it seems kind of apologistic to say that since they are unable to change the written word, the West ought to cut them some slack with their behavior. That goes for all religions. Bad behavior should not be rationalized or rewarded.

[cardguy]

I think it is a tricky situation all round.

But - if the twentieth century has taught us anything. It is that you can have never have enough tolerance. And I think we just have to muddle through as best we can.

I know that makes me sound like an uncool liberal. But - I haven't heard of any better approaches. Also - the only people who cannot accuse Muslims of believing in silly shit are those from other religions. Since all religions are equally silly.

We don't have to worry much about violent Muslims and Islamist terrorists. Since cars killed 20 times as many people in America (in 2001) as died in the twin towers attack of 9/11. So terrorism as a whole is a complete non-issue. And if I were in charge I would cut back on security spending (since terrorists will always sneak through anyway) and just put aside a billion dollars in compensation for every death from terrorism. Even a huge amount of money such as that would be cheaper than launching all these endless wars.

If you want to talk about conspiracies - you should loom at the collusion between the media, the army, the weapons manufacturers and the government. In whose interest it is to exaggerate the dangers of terrorism. The way acts of terror allow politicians to sign blank cheques for whatever cause they want to rally people behind is the real concern for me.

[berserk]

Cardguy, there are some voices in the muslim community beginning to speak out, in Denmark for example and they absolutely have to do this and have their own reformation into modern society, if not, there WILL eventually be perpetual low level civil war in Europe and at worst it may turn the entirety of Europe into a Balkan like process. Look at Golden Dawn in Greece and Jobbik in Hungary, that may very well be the future for all of Europe. Muslims need to do something about their hateful imams, for their own sake actually, it won't be good for them in the case of widespread Golden Dawns and Jobbiks.

[mikado]

Like I already said in a debate on this forum previously:

DO NOT CONFUSE ISLAM WITH ARABS

If you take a clear look at Islam in Africa, Asia, etc, do you often see acts of terrorism towards other religions? NO
On the other hand, Arabs ( confirmed by Kur'an) were the worst people on earth before Muhammad came. They would bury their girls, rip woman from heritage, among other things...
Muhammad came, and put an end to that situation. I see people criticizing for example Islam for giving women half of the man's share when a male person died ... But you should know that before, women got NONE. It was edicted at the time to not go too much straight right away against males' customs.
Further, Kur'an is the word of God, yes. However it does not mean positive changes cannot be made. Muhammad said that if an innovation would ease people's lives, and still be in agreement with Islam, then it should be made.

After the Holy Prophet died, and a period of transition, the Arabs went back to their previous behaviours. They used to go to war, brutalize people... And still do sometimes today.
You often claim that Kur'an is a call to violence, wash the infidels in the blood etc etc. However, the use of violence was recommanded when Meccas' infidels were attacking the muslims, breaking the peace treaties... Making a ripost a necessity. It was edicted IN THAT CONTEXT.
God said also that you should not kill anyone who did not attack you directly or indirectly. This however, has been looked down on so many times by those calling themselves Muslims...
I do not agree with cardguy here. Jihad does not mean fighting with the sword... It means first fighting in the name of God against what is injust. However it does not translate into war necessarily. Firearms, blades, etc should be used only as a last resort. We must first use our tongue, or our heart, to fight injustice.
If you come in West Africa, or Indonesia, do you see Muslims terrorising non Muslims?
I will tell you: in my home country, we have 95% of Muslims. You would think the Christians do not feel safe? Hell THEY DO. We give them gifts when we celebrate the Aid - islamic feasts- they give us some others back when they celebrate Easter, Christmas etc. Muslim Chiefs did go to the Cardinal Sarr to congratulate him when he got elected by Benedict XVI.

My people do not forget how did the Arabs treat us, enslave so many Black people, kill them and violate their wives, only in the name of Islam. Even today many of them still retain racist thoughts and behaviours towards us.

Again I will tell you: do not confuse the Islam from Arabs with the Islam from the rest of the world, the same I will not confuse Christianism from USA with christianism from Rome.

[Moma]

(03-16-2014 09:46 AM)mikado Wrote:  

If you come in West Africa, or Indonesia, do you see Muslims terrorising non Muslims?
I will tell you: in my home country, we have 95% of Muslims. You would think the Christians do not feel safe? Hell THEY DO. We give them gifts when we celebrate the Aids, they give us some others back when they celebrate Easter, Christmas etc. Muslim Chiefs did go to the Cardinal Sarr to congratulate him when he got elected by Benedict XVI.

Celebrate the AIDS? SIDA?

[mikado]

(03-16-2014 09:50 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 09:46 AM)mikado Wrote:  

If you come in West Africa, or Indonesia, do you see Muslims terrorising non Muslims?
I will tell you: in my home country, we have 95% of Muslims. You would think the Christians do not feel safe? Hell THEY DO. We give them gifts when we celebrate the Aids, they give us some others back when they celebrate Easter, Christmas etc. Muslim Chiefs did go to the Cardinal Sarr to congratulate him when he got elected by Benedict XVI.

Celebrate the AIDS? SIDA?

Lol no.

The islamic celebrations are called Aid ( Aid el Fitr, Aid el Kebir)
English is not my first language -_-

[berserk]

Yes, Mikado, indonesian muslims have carried out many terrorist attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Indonesia), including the Bali bombings and Christians and others are being ritually attacked and killed by Nigerian muslims (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10...2323148230) and in many other places in Africa such as Sudan. Then there are the Uyghur in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_i...ry_China), the Checzens, not to mention Pakistani terrorism.

In fact, everywhere Islam is, there is terrorism and killings of innocents. Islam is the common denominator.

[mikado]

Not as much different as all attacks carried in the name of Christianism, or the genocide of Muslims in Asia by some monks.

Religion is used as a reason for more deep issues often, such as ethnical ones.

[berserk]

(03-16-2014 09:54 AM)mikado Wrote:  

Not as much different as all attacks carried in the name of Christianism, or the genocide of Muslims in Asia by some monks.

Religion is used as a reason for more deep issues often, such as ethnical ones.

Which attacks in the last 50 or even 100 years have been carried out in the name of Christianity?

The monks incident is limited to Myanmar because the Rohinga muslims from Bangladesh are literally invading their countries.

[mikado]

(03-16-2014 10:01 AM)berserk Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 09:54 AM)mikado Wrote:  

Not as much different as all attacks carried in the name of Christianism, or the genocide of Muslims in Asia by some monks.

Religion is used as a reason for more deep issues often, such as ethnical ones.

Which attacks in the last 50 or even 100 years have been carried out in the name of Christianity?

The monks incident is limited to Myanmar because the Rohinga muslims from Bangladesh are literally invading their countries.

Just a quick one of my head

The christians in Centrafican Republic who are killing the Muslims over there. But maybe it doesn't count, because it is not from Western people?
And your monks are calling extermination on innocent people from all over the country, not only Myanmar. Using invasion from Bangladesh as a reason to justify killings is a bad reason to justify attacking masses of people of the very country, who did nothing but live their faith in their own country.

[Suits]

[samsamsam]

I am not saying this thread is headed toward a passionate/personal argument, but just keep your wits about you.

I don't want to see people getting banned if tempers flare in this thread.

From my perspective, just trying to share info and learn. I don't tend to be righteous about stuff, there is good and bad about everything, every person, every religion, etc.

99% of people in the world, I believe, want the same things. A respectable job, shelter, food, hope and an opportunity for their children, etc. Yet, we seem to constantly be fighting at the edges. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly fight for causes that matter to me, I'll go to the dark place in my heart if I have to defend what I am passionate about.

But blanket statements just don't work for me, except when it comes to women

[Monty Brown]

The real reason is because he was killed in 2005

The navyvseals who died only died because Bidenn outed them. They"died" to protect their identity. Im sure they are all living peacefully under new identifies.

And the helicopter that supposedly got shot down, why would there be like 30 seals in one helicopter?:

[Sp5]

If you look at history objectively, Muslim countries have been fucked over pretty much by the West in the last 100 years.

The way the Europeans carved up the Ottoman Empire was pretty high-handed. French got Syria and Lebanon, Brits got Iraq and the Gulf. Only Ataturk prevented them from making a bunch of colonies of Anatolia- they had already drawn the map. The French and Spanish colonization of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. The Italian seizure of Libya, during which time the population declined by 25% The British in Egypt, Iraq and the Gulf. Constant overt and covert interventions since then. Pressuring rulers and overthrowing governments for cheap oil. Backing Saddam, then pulling the rug from under him. Backing the Kurds, then betraying them, too.

The Dutch in Indonesia, the Brits again in India and Malaysia. The Americans meddling in several places, without outright colonization, except for the Philippines, where there is a well-documented record of brutality in Mindanao against Muslim rebels there about 100 years ago. Since 9/11, various bloody blunders.

Yet somehow they are the aggressive ones.

[Teedub]

We're taking civilians here, not governments.

[tomtud]

Yes western governments stuck their noses into these lands........back in the heyday of Islamic conquest, it spread all the way into Europe hence you have Muslims in Bosnia for example. Each side is guilty of seeking riches or enlarging their rule. This is nothing new, this went on and will continue to go on.

[berserk]

Yes, the western world certainly isn't free of behaving like asshole, but this is really to be expected if you're a student of history and being realistic about it. People dominate other people, nations invade other nations.

The difference is, besides people like Samuel Huntington (Clash of Civilizations), many people are not willing to accept that Islam is more than a religion, it is in fact comparable to a "civilization". Islam the religion is to the islamic civilization what free markets and democracy is to the west. They benefit mostly the leaders and the elite. For the west, free markets and democracy allows the owners of multinationals to get richer while the normal person gets poorer, and for islamics, the religious clergy used islam to gain power for themselves.

I see no problem in seeing the world for it is, a constant conflict of the interests of different civilizations, nationstates and other special interest groups.

The question you have to ask yourself, if you think your life is better under our freemarket democratic society - with all its faults - or if you think you'd prefer Sharia law and Islamic lifestyle.

[Sp5]

(03-16-2014 12:25 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

We're taking civilians here, not governments.

Are you making an ironic joke? Like if a "government" kills lots of innocent people, it's OK, but when an individual does it, it's not?

How about private security companies like Blackwater killing people? Is that OK?

And you can't expect a "blowback" reaction from 100+ years of rip-offs, invasions, bribery, killing and skulduggery?

Anyways, if you look at the UN Office of Drugs and Crime murder statistics, Muslim countries are either low murder rate or in the middle. Unless there's political violence, many are safer than Europe, most are safer than the USA and all are safer than South America and South Africa.

[Comte De St. Germain]

Oh man. Ignorance even here on RVF; not like I haven't seen that before >_>. As someone raised in a Muslim family, having a wealthy grandfather(now deceased) whom owned land in Pakistan, and having lived in a Muslim country on and off your education on the Arab world(lets not even get started on Muslim as a whole) is extremely lacking. I am a deist for the record. I do agree Muhammad was like Genghis Khan in that he was a successful warlord, but Islam is in no way a warlord cult. Many people in Muslim countries are quite peaceful and could give less of a damn about America, but somehow in the U.S. as well as parts of Europe you always hear how they hate you for their freedoms, want to convert you(oh man not like Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion doesn't), and are illiterate savages. I would also like to point out what the West has done. A couple centuries of colonization, enslavement, and genocide for Christianity. Rape, killing, and not to mention pedophilia were a-okay as long as it was in the name of God and done to the savages. On the other hand, Muslims were more than happy to let the "people of the book" live in their lands and practice their religions(they were taxed but still allowed to live freely mind you). Let me make this clear for you. They don't give a damn, and would prefer to go about their day to day business. You are free to interpret as you wish with the Quran as well. That is a central tenet of the Muslim faith to take what you wish out of the Quran.

[berserk]

(03-16-2014 02:24 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

Oh man. Ignorance even here on RVF; not like I haven't seen that before >_>. As someone raised in a Muslim family, having a wealthy grandfather(now deceased) whom owned land in Pakistan, and having lived in a Muslim country on and off your education on the Arab world(lets not even get started on Muslim as a whole) is extremely lacking. I am a deist for the record. I do agree Muhammad was like Genghis Khan in that he was a successful warlord, but Islam is in no way a warlord cult. Many people in Muslim countries are quite peaceful and could give less of a damn about America, but somehow in the U.S. as well as parts of Europe you always hear how they hate you for their freedoms, want to convert you(oh man not like Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion doesn't), and are illiterate savages. I would also like to point out what the West has done. A couple centuries of colonization, enslavement, and genocide for Christianity. Rape, killing, and not to mention pedophilia were a-okay as long as it was in the name of God and done to the savages. On the other hand, Muslims were more than happy to let the "people of the book" live in their lands and practice their religions(they were taxed but still allowed to live freely mind you). Let me make this clear for you. They don't give a damn, and would prefer to go about their day to day business. You are free to interpret as you wish with the Quran as well. That is a central tenet of the Muslim faith to take what you wish out of the Quran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Pakistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia%E2%80%..._relations

[Comte De St. Germain]

(03-16-2014 10:01 AM)berserk Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 09:54 AM)mikado Wrote:  

Not as much different as all attacks carried in the name of Christianism, or the genocide of Muslims in Asia by some monks.

Religion is used as a reason for more deep issues often, such as ethnical ones.

Which attacks in the last 50 or even 100 years have been carried out in the name of Christianity?

The monks incident is limited to Myanmar because the Rohinga muslims from Bangladesh are literally invading their countries.

So bringing up the ancient events of Muslims is fine, but suddenly you can't do the same for Christianity? Please. I'll play your game though. Try looking at Nigeria. Muslims burned alive there for being "heretics" and it happens on a day to day basis. I would like to also document the various assortment of hate crimes that happened after 9/11.

[Comte De St. Germain]

(03-16-2014 02:31 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(03-16-2014 02:24 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

Oh man. Ignorance even here on RVF; not like I haven't seen that before >_>. As someone raised in a Muslim family, having a wealthy grandfather(now deceased) whom owned land in Pakistan, and having lived in a Muslim country on and off your education on the Arab world(lets not even get started on Muslim as a whole) is extremely lacking. I am a deist for the record. I do agree Muhammad was like Genghis Khan in that he was a successful warlord, but Islam is in no way a warlord cult. Many people in Muslim countries are quite peaceful and could give less of a damn about America, but somehow in the U.S. as well as parts of Europe you always hear how they hate you for their freedoms, want to convert you(oh man not like Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion doesn't), and are illiterate savages. I would also like to point out what the West has done. A couple centuries of colonization, enslavement, and genocide for Christianity. Rape, killing, and not to mention pedophilia were a-okay as long as it was in the name of God and done to the savages. On the other hand, Muslims were more than happy to let the "people of the book" live in their lands and practice their religions(they were taxed but still allowed to live freely mind you). Let me make this clear for you. They don't give a damn, and would prefer to go about their day to day business. You are free to interpret as you wish with the Quran as well. That is a central tenet of the Muslim faith to take what you wish out of the Quran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Pakistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia%E2%80%..._relations

Jizya was the tax on the people of the book, but they were allowed to practice freely were they not? Also weren't the Christians as well as Native Africans dealing in the slave trade as well? Jihad was never written about in the Quran itself as noted in your very article itself, but was the result of imams(priests) using it as leverage to encourage war. Not like Christianity didn't have similar practices especially with a certain group of Popes encouraging people to fight in the Crusades for the erasure of their sins. The Shia-Sunni conflict is similar to the fights between Protestants and Catholics going on in Northern Ireland(don't have much of a moral high ground there either) as well as having gone on for a good portion of Western history. On the child marriage, that still occurs in Ethiopia and many other Christian African nations.