[Rutting Elephant]

I never heard that the burial at sea was meant to be respectful. Didn't they admit that it was to prevent his grave becoming a pilgrimage site?
I'm finding it hard to keep info, disinfo, and conclusions reached personally straight after a while.

[Sp5]

(03-14-2014 07:12 PM)kosko Wrote:  

If you follow Bin Ladens life he was a protected man with connections in many levels of the USA establishment. There is more proof to him being in Germany in the mid 2000s under Army care for his kidney ailments then there is of his supposed killing.

Where is this "proof" you speak of?

I am amused by conspiracy theories that by their nature would require scores of people to remain silent. US Gov can't even keep its legit secrets.

[TigerMandingo]

(03-14-2014 09:07 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(03-14-2014 09:04 PM)Yeti Wrote:  

Nonetheless, I remember that immediately following period in early May as one of bloodthirsty euphoria in the U.S., not only among George Washington University undergrads but among others as well. At my law school, very intelligent and sophisticated people (many of them much smarter than me in some ways) were celebrating his death. It was unsettling.

I don't think that it's right to celebrate someone's death. It's sad. Some people need to be in prison or somehow taken off the market but I wouldn't celebrate, only give a grim sigh of relief. There's a difference.

I was in China when Kim Jung Il died. The South Koreans celebrated with music, dancing and baked cakes for the occasion.

That aint right, either. I remember being in Russia when Shamil Basayev, Russia's version of Bin Laden you could say, was killed. Nobody was popping champagne bottles. People acknowledged it and went about their day.

[svenski7]

Actually, there is only one thing that amazes me about the raid.

The narrative is that he was living in Pakistan so close to an elite military base that it is implausible that he wasn't receiving assistance from the Pakistani gov't.

So, where's the outrage about that?

Dude gets shot up and Europeans are outraged that there was a violation of "sovereign territory" by US forces.

Personally, I think Pakistan should be embargoed a la Cuba style. Fuck those guys. But, barring that, stop fucking bitching about how "offended" you are about the raid.

[runninutebball]

I must have missed in the news where Basayev directed an attack which, in the course of a single morning, killed over 3,000 Russian civilians. It's not the same. When the US killed Anwar al-awlaki or captured Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, there wasn't any public reaction. Bin Laden was the face, the symbol of that movement. If course they are going to celebrate. Same as people in WWII celebrated VE day, Midway, the Doolittle Raids, etc.

It's also not a distinctly "American" reaction. I seem to recall Mussolini's corpse getting special treatment in Italy for a week after his death. The public celebration in France and Germany when liberated (accompanied by some severe reprisals for collaborators). The 9/11 attacks themselves were celebrated in the streets of many Arab capitals. Libyans celebrated the death of Qaddafi.

Maybe it's unseemly that Americans celebrated his death but my only regret is I wasn't there for the party. That weird, creepy fuck changed American society forever. 9/11 was a seminal moment that is seared on our collective memory. American overreach can be traced back to 9/11. It will take years to roll back some of the effects of that attack. The recent NSA scandal is just one example of that rollback.

As for the idea that the seal team emptied their clips into him, I'll call bullshit. You just invaded a country, killed the world's most wanted man, have no idea how much backup he has nearby or how the Pakistanis will react and you waste all your ammo by shooting a corpse. I doubt it. As for the burial, it's genius. No pictures or site to become a rallying cry for his followers. I'll bet there was a strong argument in the room for not notifying anyone at all.

The only real shame in this affair is that the US abandoned the people who made it possible. There is a doctor rotting in Pakistani prison who should be given citizenship by Congress and all efforts should be made to get him freed. Once free, this man deserves a ticker tape parade in NY, the reward money, and exemption from paying taxes for life.

[Pepini]

Either Bin Laden is still alive or he was already dead. In my opinion he was already dead. No information about his real death death because they wanted him "alive" to keep war efforts. They should have kept him "alive" to justify invading Syria and others. I can´t understand why they decided to "kill" him in that moment. Maybe Obama wanted to gain popularity.

Bin Laden was too unpredictable for americans to stage a death, sooner or later he would go back to his old ways and continue terrorism and people would found out it was a fake.

A year ago a famous singer died in a road crash. Doctors said to television he was still alive and could bounce back. A friend of mine who was a doctor told me he was already dead and at that time doctors where extracting the healthy body parts which could be transplanted to other patients. Finally after 2 weeks he officially "died"...

[Feisbook Control]

(03-14-2014 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(03-14-2014 07:12 PM)kosko Wrote:  

JFK had his skull blown open and they still leaked his corpse photos. Again I have snow to sell you in the arctic if you believe America would grant Bin Laden such privy and respect in his death.

I can actually see the US granting Laden such privy and respect in his death not because of respect for the man himself but not to enrage the Muslim world. You know a released picture of his corpse would be used as propaganda by terrorists to recruit gullible young minds. It actually makes sense. Nobody was going to stage violent protests based on JFK's photos or use them as fodder to spread terrorist rhetoric.

This is where people have it around backwards. The West, be it America or anyone else, should not be pussy footing around with these people trying not to offend them. Remember how we're always told that Islam is a religion of peace, and how moderate Muslims hate Al Qaeda as much as everyone else? I have no idea whether Bin Laden is dead or not. If he is dead, then they should have fed his corpse to pigs or put a pig's cock in his mouth and then broadcast it on every major news channel around the world. Then, those who are moderate Muslims wouldn't have a problem with seeing Bin Laden treated like the piece of shit that he is/was. Everyone else would out themselves as the medieval clowns that they are.

[Bushido]

(03-15-2014 07:31 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

(03-14-2014 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(03-14-2014 07:12 PM)kosko Wrote:  

JFK had his skull blown open and they still leaked his corpse photos. Again I have snow to sell you in the arctic if you believe America would grant Bin Laden such privy and respect in his death.

I can actually see the US granting Laden such privy and respect in his death not because of respect for the man himself but not to enrage the Muslim world. You know a released picture of his corpse would be used as propaganda by terrorists to recruit gullible young minds. It actually makes sense. Nobody was going to stage violent protests based on JFK's photos or use them as fodder to spread terrorist rhetoric.

This is where people have it around backwards. The West, be it America or anyone else, should not be pussy footing around with these people trying not to offend them. Remember how we're always told that Islam is a religion of peace, and how moderate Muslims hate Al Qaeda as much as everyone else? I have no idea whether Bin Laden is dead or not. If he is dead, then they should have fed his corpse to pigs or put a pig's cock in his mouth and then broadcast it on every major news channel around the world. Then, those who are moderate Muslims wouldn't have a problem with seeing Bin Laden treated like the piece of shit that he is/was. Everyone else would out themselves as the medieval clowns that they are.

I assume you posted this with irony. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

[mikado]

(03-15-2014 07:42 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 07:31 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

(03-14-2014 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(03-14-2014 07:12 PM)kosko Wrote:  

JFK had his skull blown open and they still leaked his corpse photos. Again I have snow to sell you in the arctic if you believe America would grant Bin Laden such privy and respect in his death.

I can actually see the US granting Laden such privy and respect in his death not because of respect for the man himself but not to enrage the Muslim world. You know a released picture of his corpse would be used as propaganda by terrorists to recruit gullible young minds. It actually makes sense. Nobody was going to stage violent protests based on JFK's photos or use them as fodder to spread terrorist rhetoric.

This is where people have it around backwards. The West, be it America or anyone else, should not be pussy footing around with these people trying not to offend them. Remember how we're always told that Islam is a religion of peace, and how moderate Muslims hate Al Qaeda as much as everyone else? I have no idea whether Bin Laden is dead or not. If he is dead, then they should have fed his corpse to pigs or put a pig's cock in his mouth and then broadcast it on every major news channel around the world. Then, those who are moderate Muslims wouldn't have a problem with seeing Bin Laden treated like the piece of shit that he is/was. Everyone else would out themselves as the medieval clowns that they are.

I assume you posted this with irony. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

So by your definition my family, my friends, my people (Senegal) , and I are violent terrorists who plan to bomb the non Muslims? To get our share of virgins in the Paradise? Who are you to just make that claim? What backs you up? Your own share of TV movies/ reportages coverage about the Muslim threat? Do you know any muslim, for the record? Have you even read anything other than "Kill all the infidels!" yelled by angry people who were just bombed, and lost their offspring in a stupid war they did not even care about at first place?

[svenski7]

See more on Know Your Meme

[mikado]

Well I admit my reaction was maybe a bit overkill.

But it really irritates me when I see people making such bold claims. Where are the proofs, the facts, that NO muslim is moderate? Or even, that most muslims aren't ?
SO far, all other reactions are moderate here, and they carefully distinguish the terrorists from the other people who just give zero fucks about the western world, and just want to live their faith. And I am the first to admit that some people use the shield of Islam to justify their need for attention, and violence.
So why can't he be like the rest of the forum, and not just jump right into the discussion and talk like that?
Don't expect to be praised when you , like we say in French, "throw oil on fire"

[Sp5]

Guys that are fighting the wars mostly have a nuanced view of Muslims. That is because they have worked with Muslim interpreters, soldiers, police, intelligence officers, drivers, etc. There are Muslim American CIA officers and decorated military. It's unavoidable to work with Muslims on your side if you go to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

It's a big part of the world and there are all types. Muslims probably have the same issue - given that we have killed thousands of innocent civilians in their countries.

[Blackhawk]

I believe it's just optics.

By the time a government collapses to where we can capture a foreign leader, they're no longer in their palaces with solid gold toilets. They're on the run, living in the street. Just a broken down old geezer in a spider hole now indistinguishable from your average street bum.



There's some arguments why we didn't just shoot Saddam in his spiderhole. Officially it's because we needed to interrogate him for info. Others more cynical believe we needed to clean him and fatten him back up from starvation so Hollywood would actually recognize it really was Saddam when he was executed.



Most likely, Bin Laden's appearance at the end, having been on the run for so many years and being over a decade older, was probably now shuffling around in sweat pants, flip flops and a grungy t-shirt, completely broken down and unrecognizable to Hollywood. Plus his wives screaming for pity probably didn't make good audio.

There's some that believe this is the US military transitioning to fourth generation warfare tactics --since 1995 enemy leadership like Gaddafi, Bin Laden and Saddam have become legitimate military targets instead of being hands-off as in previous conflicts.

There's a lot of internal controversy over this going on in the US military, since there is no official policy. It would be much easier if there was a press conference and some official said "The US military is now using 4th generation military tactics." No one has, and it's all "this wonky thinktank's position paper vs that wonky thinktank's position paper" reading which way the winds blow in Washington at the moment.

It may be only third world arab dictators get the 4th generation warfare treatment. It may be all future conflicts. No one knows. There's thousands of voices in the choir, and they're all singing different songs. Good luck making sense of Washington DC beltway politics.

[cardguy]

Interesting shit there.

Remember how Hitler could parade in front of thousands of adoring people - with no security? And no fear of being shot at?

It is amazing how different that is to today.

Even the Pope needs a special Pope-mobile before going out in public.

War used to be like chess. You would trap the King - but let him live. Now - we seem to be just focus on an all out attack on the King himself. It will be interesting to see how that plays out in the future.

[cool]

Bin Laden was wildly successful in using US militarism against itself.

He drew the US into two unwinnable land wars in Asia dragging down the economy and the spirit of Americans.

[samsamsam]

(03-15-2014 07:42 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

I assume you posted this with irony. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

Really? I think there are plenty in the United States.

I get that the anonymity of the internet allows us to be a bit more extreme if we do not moderate ourselves and speak off the cuff. Therefore, we should make an extra effort to stay within the goal posts.

(03-15-2014 08:30 AM)mikado Wrote:  

And I am the first to admit that some people use the shield of Islam to justify their need for attention, and violence.

Plenty of Americans use Christianity to justify a shit load of nonsense also. It has been used to justify slavery, among other things.

Extreme comments generally don't add to a conversation, if a person is extreme, usually they are not open enough to digest any new info, just my experience. Mainly because they are too busy pushing their views to listen - perfect example - feminists.

[buja]

Quote:

I assume you posted this with irony. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

...because I believe everything that Fox News tells me!

[berserk]

If you rewatch the early 9-11 footage, it was obvious that Bin Ladens name was leaked instantly to the major news outlets, who all - within a very short time - lay the blame on Osama. If you are thinking rationally about it, you must see that such intel isn't possible for either a journo or a government agency to come up with that quickly.

That leaves two possibilities:

1) The administration already had decided to use Bin Laden as a scapegoat figurehead for their excursion into the middle east and then quickly decided to jump at the opportunity when 9-11 happened.

or

2) The admin and intel knew that Bin Laden was planning a terrorist attack and for some reason failed or didn't want to stop it, because they wanted their 'new Pearl Harbor' - as written eerily succinctly by the Project for a New American Century think tank, years before 9-11. That PNAC group later all became the administration, every single one of them got into office.

I am leaning towards 2). I do believe that Bin Laden was training terrorists, probably not directly as related to 9-11 though. I also think that the CIA and others definitely knew about the plans to capture planes and use for terrorism. That is why they had that drill on the same day. I think they decided to let them go ahead with it - i.e. "they" being guys like Cheaney, Rumsfeld, Kristol etc. - so that they could get their 'new Pearl Harbor'. I think Bush was probably clueless and that Cheaney et al, in subbtle ways just made sure that enough confusion and lack of communication would mean the attack would happen. There is that infamous 'stand down' order to the fighter pilots too.

They probably chose Bin Laden, because they knew him, just like Saddam. He probably had a lot of dirt on American intelligence from his time as a CIA operative.

[cardguy]

I was reading some books on 9/11 recently.

The reason they came up with Bin Laden's name so quickly is because they could track down the passenger lists for the crashed airplanes - and immediately identify names that were spotted as belonging to al Qaeda.

Also - in the run up to 9/11 it was common knowledge in the intelligence community that Bin Laden was planning something big. The CIA even told George Bush this at his holiday ranch a month before 9/11.

That is the official story.

[Teedub]

(03-15-2014 05:41 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 07:42 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

I assume you posted this with irony. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

Really? I think there are plenty in the United States.

I get that the anonymity of the internet allows us to be a bit more extreme if we do not moderate ourselves and speak off the cuff. Therefore, we should make an extra effort to stay within the goal posts.

(03-15-2014 08:30 AM)mikado Wrote:  

And I am the first to admit that some people use the shield of Islam to justify their need for attention, and violence.

Plenty of Americans use Christianity to justify a shit load of nonsense also. It has been used to justify slavery, among other things.

Extreme comments generally don't add to a conversation, if a person is extreme, usually they are not open enough to digest any new info, just my experience. Mainly because they are too busy pushing their views to listen - perfect example - feminists.

I know you're trying to be reasonable but you need to educate yourself a little more on Islam. It's not like Christianity, it's very different. There's no 'turn the other cheek' stuff in the Quran, and Mohammed wasn't like Jesus - he was a war lord. A very successful one too.

He's considered the most perfect man of all time by Muslims yet he committed hundreds of murders. Not exactly healing the poor and the sick is it. He also had sexual relations with a 9 year old child - which puts the child grooming cases in England by Muslims into perspective.

Furthermore, no other religion has the concept of armed jihad (armed struggle) written into their doctrines. Since about 2009 I've read extensively about it all, and had numerous conversations with Muslims about Mohammed. Plus, someone I considered a friend basically admitted to me that he was only hanging out with me to practice Dawah (proselytising) and convert me. This guy wears designer clothes and looks completely Westernised, but you'd never guess some of the things he actually believed. I had several debates with him over whether Noah's Ark was factual or just a story. Crazy.

The nice Muslims you have in America are the very educated ones who are normal IN SPITE of their religion. Like others have said Muslims kill other Muslims in the name of Islam every day. The biggest enemy of Muslims is their religion!

My mate is an Egyptian who grew up Muslim (he's an atheist now) and whilst he disagrees with some of my criticism he agrees that the Pakistani Muslims we get in England are the worst.

[cardguy]

I don't think Mohammad ever killed anyone.

Instead - there was a situation where a bunch of Jews lied to him and allowed an enemy force into his camp to launch a surprise attack.

Once the invaders had been defeated - Mohammed handed over the Jews to some other council for them to decide what should happen to them. And that resulted in a lot of them been put to death.

I can't remember the exact details (it was from a documentary I saw). But it was a famous event and is the historical reason for the tension between Jews and Muslims to this day.

[Teedub]

(03-16-2014 07:48 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

I don't think Mohammad ever killed anyone.

If he didn't do it personally, he certainly ordered a lot.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killin...y_Muhammad

[berserk]

Mohammed was the Gengis Khan of the arabs, nothing more, nothing less. The reason why Sufism is popular in some places is because the Koran doesn't actually have many philosophical or spiritual insights at all. I doubt you can even really call Islam a religion. It is more like a emperor warfare cult, meant to inspire and keep some order among the arabs as they pillaged west and east.

Let's be honest about this. The muslim invaders weren't nice guys. They slaughtered hundreds of thousands innocents because they refused to convert, they were HUGE slave traders of whites and blacks, they ruthlessly subjugated those they conquered. THAT is Islam, that is what they are proud off. Their wartime success is seen as proof that they 'have god on their side', in that respect Islam is not really a modern monotheistic religion, but more of a pagan religion.

Islam has nothing to offer in peacetime, just look at how every muslim begans warring with each other, once there is no common enemy.

[cardguy]

It is unfair to criticise a religion since 99% of believers just unthinkingly follow whatever teachings they were raised on.

So - you shouldn't judge a Muslim on how dumb and violent their religion is. Since most Christians would believe the same shit if they had been switched at birth and raised in a Muslim family.

People just unthinkingly follow whatever shit is fed to them from an early age. And just because the shit you were raised on is nicer than the shit other people were raised on doesn't mean you are much different to them.

[Teedub]

That's ridiculous. That's like saying "Don't criticise Nazism, the followers were raised since kids to believe in the impurity of Jewish people".

Coincidentally, so have many Muslims!