[Days of Broken Arrows]

(05-21-2013 08:10 AM)Exactaking Wrote:  

People are getting real high-horse about circumcision. I think I was one of the last males to be circumcised (in 1989). Now its like considered murder, or strictly a Jewish thing. I think the doctor that delivered me was quite WASPy, I think it was just old school medical theory about it. Not to sound like a whiner (I'm not Jewish btw) but this anti-circumsision thing seems to me to be a crypto-criticism of Jews, like how much SWPLs don't like Israel, they wanna complain about jews (which a lot of them are) and have their cake, too.

I just mentioned above one of the leading proponents of the anti-circumcision brigade was Dr. Dean Edell, who is Jewish. This movement didn't catch fire until he started making it a point to chastise everyone who was circumcising their boys on his daily radio show. He did this for over two decades. If you read his books, he has his reasons. Medical procedures and religious beliefs do not often work together, as I stated earlier.

Beyond that, I think you've posted a poor argument that demeans what people are discussing here in a mature, rational way.

Proclaiming bigotry lurks behind sound intellectual thought is not only intellectually suspect, but it's also the biggest cliche in American culture today. People who don't like the president for policy reasons are not necessarily racist. People who are against immigration because of wage reasons are not by default anti-Hispanic. And people who have valid medical reasons for not liking circumcision are not anti-Semitic simply because of their ideas.

When someone states a point and makes it clearly and without snide remarks, it's simply rude (and on the level of Jezebel) to play "mind-reader" and assume there is some sort of imaginary prejudice lurking in their brains. Most likely there is not. Why? Well, in these parts we're all using aliases here and could be overt in our bigotry if we wanted. This isn't a dinner party with the boss. And in the outside world, none of the people in this movement that I know of are anti-Semites.

Finally, Muslims also circumcise their boys. Why wouldn't you claim this prejudice is anti-Muslim? Why does it have to necessarily be anti-Jewish?

[Tex Pro]

(05-21-2013 08:10 AM)Exactaking Wrote:  

People are getting real high-horse about circumcision. I think I was one of the last males to be circumcised (in 1989). Now its like considered murder, or strictly a Jewish thing. I think the doctor that delivered me was quite WASPy, I think it was just old school medical theory about it. Not to sound like a whiner (I'm not Jewish btw) but this anti-circumsision thing seems to me to be a crypto-criticism of Jews, like how much SWPLs don't like Israel, they wanna complain about jews (which a lot of them are) and have their cake, too.

Nope.

[Moma]

Africans get circumcised too so it's not just a Jewish thing. I've heard it's cleaner to be circumcised because urine and all sorts of knob cheese gets built up behind the foreskin and most cats are too lazy to pull the skin back and clean it properly.

[Tex Pro]

(05-21-2013 08:21 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Africans get circumcised too so it's not just a Jewish thing. I've heard it's cleaner to be circumcised because urine and all sorts of knob cheese gets built up behind the foreskin and most cats are too lazy to pull the skin back and clean it properly.

I keep hearing that American girls prefer guys to be circumcised, but for me that isn't a good reason to get circumcised since I want to fuck foreign girls, not American ones.

If I one day get to the point where I no longer have to fuck American girls, I will know I have won.

[Exactaking]

Why are people so passionate about circumcision? It is just a battle between those who were clipped (like me) and those who weren't? I predict this thread will go 20 pages.

I'd stick a sly gif, but my computer skills are shit. Probably because I was clipped.

[Moma]

(05-21-2013 08:24 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

I keep hearing that American girls prefer guys to be circumcised, but for me that isn't a good reason to get circumcised since I want to fuck foreign girls, not American ones.

If I one day get to the point where I no longer have to fuck American girls, I will know I have won.

Lizards don't care what your dyck looks like as long as it is not covered in bumps and sores and it is satisfying (filling).

[Tex Pro]

(05-21-2013 08:33 AM)Exactaking Wrote:  

Why are people so passionate about circumcision? It is just a battle between those who were clipped (like me) and those who weren't? I predict this thread will go 20 pages.

I'd stick a sly gif, but my computer skills are shit. Probably because I was clipped.

Being clipped affected you computer skills?????????????

Do you type with your dick??????????

[Teedub]

^ I think he was being sarcastic.

[Veloce]

Yeah, as an uncut guy I can safely say it's not once, ever, come up. If anything, I've had several girls tell me how much they enjoy playing with the tip.

The only references I've read to girls preferring circumcision is in magazines like Cosmo. I don't think I need to address further.

I'll never know what sex feels like being circumcised, just like cut guys will never know what it feels like to be me. It doesn't really matter. However, for the sake of argument, I'm pasting this from wiki:

"The College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia have written that the foreskin is "composed of an outer skin and an inner mucosa that is rich in specialized sensory nerve endings and erogenous tissue."

[MidniteSpecial]

I wonder how different it would feel having sex un cut. Better or worse? I heard about some men getting the foreskin reattached. That's pretty bugged out.

[presidentcarter]

There has to be some guys out there with sex feeling before-and-after cut experience. I'm cut so there's no going back for me, but would be interesting food for thought.

[Bad Hussar]

The people who think that the current practice of circumcision is a Jewish conspiracy really need to get out more. As Moma mentioned above many tribes in Africa have adopted the practice. While there are "Black Jews" as far South as the North of South Africa, and Jews from the Middle East have been travelers in Africa for 1000+ years, it's really a stretch to say that Jews made Africans adopt this practice. It's ridiculous. Jewish influence in Africa just hasn't been that great. Neither has Islam away from the Eastern coastal regions (Talking sub-Saharan Africa).

And if you have a problem with circumcision as practiced in the West just be thankful you are not a member of an African tribe, like the Xhosa, who have adopted the practice. In this tribe it isn't carried out on infants, but on adolescents (around 16 yo typically), as part of a much bigger boy >> man ritual. And they don't use a scalpel. They use an axe (no, not joking). And if you think you, if you were a Xhosa boy, would be a rebel and not have it carried out, think again. Since it is part of a bigger manhood ritual an uncircumcised man is regarded as an inkwenwe (literally "boy". Very deep insult), rather than an indoda (man). And it goes without saying: Chance of getting laid as an "inkenkwe" = zero.

I see in the discussion above everyone is discussing recent history when explaining why it is practiced today. But the practice is 1000's of years old. A more interesting question is why Jews originally started the practice, why Muslims subsequently also incorporated it, and why others (like African tribes) have practiced it for 100's of years. In my opinion the two reasons are the ones most often mentioned.

1) It is "cleaner"
2) May limit masturbation

Look, I have no strong opinion here, but to say that being uncircumcised is as clean IF a, b, c and d are carried out just goes to prove the opposite: That circumcision does offer some cleanliness/anti-infection benefits. The reason is obvious. By virtue of the vagaries of life many (most?) people are not going to carry out a, b, c and d diligently without fail. It would be like a Catholic charity saying birth control is unnecessary because if the rhythm method is practiced properly it has as high a success rate as X Birth Control. But in real life it is NEVER going to be practiced correctly, and without fail.

Won't comment much on whether being circumcised limits masturbation, but if so the Ancients would see this as a plus since it would force adherents to have actual sex and therefore produce more...adherents.

[Tex Pro]

(05-21-2013 10:34 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

The people who think that the current practice of circumcision is a Jewish conspiracy really need to get out more. As Moma mentioned above many tribes in Africa have adopted the practice. While there are "Black Jews" as far South as the North of South Africa, and Jews from the Middle East have been travelers in Africa for 1000+ years, it's really a stretch to say that Jews made Africans adopt this practice. It's ridiculous. Jewish influence in Africa just hasn't been that great. Neither has Islam away from the Eastern coastal regions (Talking sub-Saharan Africa).

And if you have a problem with circumcision as practiced in the West just be thankful you are not a member of an African tribe, like the Xhosa, who have adopted the practice. In this tribe it isn't carried out on infants, but on adolescents (around 16 yo typically), as part of a much bigger boy >> man ritual. And they don't use a scalpel. They use an axe (no, not joking). And if you think you, if you were a Xhosa boy, would be a rebel and not have it carried out, think again. Since it is part of a bigger manhood ritual an uncircumcised man is regarded as an inkwenwe (literally "boy". Very deep insult), rather than an indoda (man). And it goes without saying: Chance of getting laid as an "inkenkwe" = zero.

I see in the discussion above everyone is discussing recent history when explaining why it is practiced today. But the practice is 1000's of years old. A more interesting question is why Jews originally started the practice, why Muslims subsequently also incorporated it, and why others (like African tribes) have practiced it for 100's of years. In my opinion the two reasons are the ones most often mentioned.

1) It is "cleaner"
2) May limit masturbation

Look, I have no strong opinion here, but to say that being uncircumcised is as clean IF a, b, c and d are carried out just goes to prove the opposite: That circumcision does offer some cleanliness/anti-infection benefits. The reason is obvious. By virtue of the vagaries of life many (most?) people are not going to carry out a, b, c and d diligently without fail. It would be like a Catholic charity saying birth control is unnecessary because if the rhythm method is practiced properly it has as high a success rate as X Birth Control. But in real life it is NEVER going to be practiced correctly, and without fail.

Won't comment much on whether being circumcised limits masturbation, but if so the Ancients would see this as a plus since it would force adherents to have actual sex and therefore produce more...adherents.

Can you imagine what happens in those tribes when they "miss" while using an axe??? No more dick.

African tribes also practice female circumcision, so I wouldn't take everything they do as the model for society...I mean they do live in dirt huts.

[metalhaze]

you were born with it, why take it off?

[Bad Hussar]

(05-21-2013 10:40 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

...

Can you imagine what happens in those tribes when they "miss" while using an axe??? No more dick.

African tribes also practice female circumcision, so I wouldn't take everything they do as the model for society.

Yes, there are may hospitalisations and deaths every circumcision season. It doesn't help that in the modern world it is typically carried out in Winter (School holidays) and the larger ritual includes a couple of weeks sleeping rough in the countryside. Your ability to fight infection is probably compromised in these circumstances. I'm not really recommending it, or not. Just pointing out that it is considered an important practice more widely than among Jews and Muslims. For the Xhosa important enough to accept pretty severe risks.

Can't speak for all African tribes, but the Xhosa do not practice female circumcision. I don't think female circumcision is practiced widely in sub-Saharan Africa. Probably only by small groups of hard core Islamists. Christians and Animists are unlikely to practice it.

[Tex Pro]

(05-21-2013 10:51 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 10:40 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

...

Can you imagine what happens in those tribes when they "miss" while using an axe??? No more dick.

African tribes also practice female circumcision, so I wouldn't take everything they do as the model for society.

Yes, there are may hospitalisations and deaths every circumcision season. It doesn't help that in the modern world it is typically carried out in Winter (School holidays) and the larger ritual includes a couple of weeks sleeping rough in the countryside. Your ability to fight infection is probably compromised in these circumstances. I'm not really recommending it, or not. Just pointing out that it is considered an important practice more widely than among Jews and Muslims. For the Xhosa important enough to accept pretty severe risks.

Can't speak for all African tribes, but the Xhosa do not practice female circumcision. I don't think female circumcision is practiced widely in sub-Saharan Africa. Probably only by small groups of hard core Islamists. Christians and Animists are unlikely to practice it.

You are right that it is not practiced much is Sub-Saharan Africa, but it is not just a "few" small tribes that practice it in Africa.

[Samseau]

There's actually a lot of evidence that's recently come out showing circumcision significantly reduces the chance for AIDS as well as other STDs.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environ...m-aids.htm

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/259200.php

Full scientific paper here:

http://mbio.asm.org/content/4/2/e00076-1...70e03a4ed6

According to the study, an uncut foreskin is more likely to tear during sex. These tears serve as an entry point for the HIV virus, which binds to white blood cells, and the tip of the foreskin contains a high number of white blood cells.

Seems like a compelling reason to get a son cut.

[Tex Pro]

(05-21-2013 11:06 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

There's actually a lot of evidence that's recently come out showing circumcision significantly reduces the chance for AIDS as well as other STDs.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environ...m-aids.htm

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/259200.php

Full scientific paper here:

http://mbio.asm.org/content/4/2/e00076-1...70e03a4ed6

According to the study, an uncut foreskin is more likely to tear during sex. These tears serve as an entry point for the HIV virus, which binds to white blood cells, and the tip of the foreskin contains a high number of white blood cells.

Seems like a compelling reason to get a son cut.

There could be a cure for aids soon:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/health...-cure.html

Plus, the risk of aids/hiv for heterosexual people who are not IV drug users is greatly overblown in the media.

[sheesh]

Circumcision outside of the Jewish and Muslim world is really an Anglo-Saxon thing. AFAIK this custom was revived in the Victorian times for multiple reasons, to curb masturbation but also to "heal" all kinds of diseases, ranging from bedwetting, epilepsy to insomnia etc.

After WWII, almost all countries in the Anglosphere except the US left the practice since there was no valid medical reason for it.

Of course some scientists try hard to find arguments pro circumcision but they often have an agenda, it seems. Some Jews are afraid that the more liberal members of the community might abandon this central part Judaism so they try very hard to find scientific reasons to justify the custom.

The argument of cleanliness is no argument to me. The rest of the world get's along just fine by taking showers. In comparison, just because you could have dirt behind your ears, you're not going to cut off your ears either, right ? So why remove a delicate and sensitive part of the penis when water and soap do the job.

Also, many of the often mentioned medical benefits seem very questionable. Even though the circumcision rate is very high in the US relative to all other western countries, the US still has the highest percentage of citizens with HIV in the western world...even if circumcision really did decrease the chance of transmission, it can't be that good of a protection against AIDS.

I think this custom is going to disappear in the long term among Christians and seculars in the US.


http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/co...4/796.long

[worldwidetraveler]

(05-21-2013 10:48 AM)metalhaze Wrote:  

you were born with it, why take it off?

There are people born with third nipples, clefts, man boobs, etc... Why get them removed or fixed?

[Tex Pro]

(05-21-2013 11:24 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 10:48 AM)metalhaze Wrote:  

you were born with it, why take it off?

There are people born with third nipples, clefts, man boobs, etc... Why get them removed or fixed?

This seems like a silly line of reasoning since 100% of males are born with foreskin, while the conditions you are talking about are much more rare and usually are a genetic anomaly.

[Muk]

we should start sealing up girls vaginas from birth because it's " cleaner and healthier"
it's not any crazier than teaching her how to keep it clean...

[JayMillz]

(05-20-2013 11:09 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Here in the UK it is only carried out for religious reasons. So - I am interested in how it became a cultural norm in America?

There is a lot about this on the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...rcumcision

For instance:

"Sayre's prominence within the medical profession allowed him to reach a wide audience. He lectured widely in the United States and the United Kingdom, and his ideas influenced physicians throughout the English-speaking world. As more practitioners tried circumcision as a treatment for otherwise intractable medical conditions, sometimes achieving positive results, the list of ailments reputed to be treatable through circumcision grew. By the 1890s, hernia, bladder infections, kidney stones, insomnia, chronic indigestion, rheumatism, epilepsy, asthma, bedwetting, Bright's disease, erectile dysfunction, syphilis, insanity, and skin cancer had all been linked to the foreskin, and many physicians advocated universal circumcision as a preventive health measure. In 1855, the Quaker surgeon, Jonathan Hutchinson, observed that circumcision appeared to protect against syphilis.[43] Although this observation was challenged (the protection that Jews appear to have are more likely due to cultural factors[44]), a 2006 systematic review concluded that the evidence "strongly indicates that circumcised men are at lower risk ... syphilis"

[gfly]

My brother and I were probably the only uncut boys in our middle class suburb. Parents had to make a fuss when we were born(1970s) to keep us from getting cut. As a kid I learned about circumcision from an old MASH tv episode then asked mom what the deal was. I think it is unnecessary, some of the science has been questioned as being political, if I had a boy I wouldn't have it done. Though I don't care about other peoples dicks to go advocating against it, I will say once we learned the deal we told our friends and kids learning that part of their dicks were cut off as babies were freaked out. As adults we rationalize it, kids are honest 'they cut something off my dick when I was born nfw'

[Lucky]

I like when guys get worked up over this. The cut guys argue that being cut is better because they know they'll never know what it's like to have a foreskin and want to believe it's better to not have one and uncut guys feel insecure and claim sex is better and circumcision is mutilation and become 'intactivists.' What a fucking joke.

I underwent a circumcision last year. I don't notice any real differences in feeling during sex, there might be a very slight difference in sensitivity but it still feels great. The differences are negligible. I can still masturbate without lotion, but it helps. Wearing a condom without foreskin is easier. Almost every European girl I've had sex with has told me they prefer my cut penis over the uncut European cocks they've sat on.