[pitt]

Its nothing new here, i agree with OGnorcal. US guys are definetely ''harder'' than European guys.

I remember when me, El and Ali was sitting in this bar in DR and i saw this white guy and i told them : ''yo, look at this guy from your country'', El and ali were like like: " he is not american, im sure he is european, white americans are not that soft'', we called him over and yes he was european.

I agree that in many parts of Europe, dudes are very soft. But it depends on where you go (yeah germany is a soft place), come to London and your opinion will change.

[Greek kamaki]

You could hardly call Serbian, Bulgarian or Russian dudes soft.

[thegmanifesto]

(03-07-2013 04:20 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 09:11 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

We make so much issue of the loss of masculinity of the American male, and masculinization of the American female. I will not contest that the American female is becoming more masculine, to everyone's detriment, especially masculine males...

But, after spending the last 5 weeks traveling around Mexico, staying in hotels and hostels and meeting lot's of mostly European tourists, I really belive that American men have to be some of the most masculine men in the western wealthy industrialized world.

For some reason there are a shit ton of Germans in Mexico, I have met more Germans that tourists from any other one single country, in addition to Germans I have seen and observed many other Europeans including, the French, Dutch, and Italians.

Now no diss to our European forum members, but I got to say so many of these guys, especially the French, but also the Germans are feminized, androgynous looking men, who look borderline gay, and look like they have never lifted a weight in their lives.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen a dude wearing some gay looking sandals, some tight capri shorts, etc., to the point where I have this inner gut instinct to want to bitch slap them, even though they have done nothing to me. It's mostly the capris that get me, but I always hear how fashionable European men are, maybe they are when they are at home in their colder climates when they go out to bars and nightclubs, but the Euro guys I see on vacation here all dress like shit. For some reason they all dress like they are trying to look like preppy suburban white teenagers, circa 1998, with American Eagle, Abercrombie & Fitch, and Holister Clothing Co t-shirts, and don't even get me started on the fanny packs.

To me American, as well as Aussie, and to a lesser extent Brittish guys, are extremely masculine compared to these androgynous European nerds. Now I realize that I am painting broad strokes here, and this obviously doesn't apply to everyone, I have seen a few super jacked up German dudes who looked roided out and not to be fucked with. However, overall these guys seem like they have been eating way too much soy, or were born with high doses of estrogen.

It's kind of odd that I even post this, because if you guys have or would meet me, I am not even the most classically masculine man you will meet out there. In the past couple years I have gotten serious about weightlifting and martial arts as hobbies, but overall I am an extremely chill, laid back, compassionate, and open minded guy, not your typical meathead or tatted out cage fighter kind of persona. Maybe it's the influence of this forum, but I have become way more attuned to these kind of things. The way people talk, the way they walk, their posture, their body language, how they dress, etc.

Now I will say one thing, a lot of these feminized Euro guys, are still rolling with some pretty damn fine females, the ones that are with their girlfriends at least. This brings me to another topic, which I may touch on and bust a thread on at some point, the issue with dating and how men and women match up in terms of looks, status, and sexual market value in the U.S. Aside from guys who maybe classically handsome, I am always surprised when I see some scrawny, gay looking Euro guy with a hot chick, and think ¨damn you would never see those two together in the U.S.¨

It seems that in a lot of ways there is a certain subset of American men, leading the way when it comes to such things as masculinity and self improvement, and many things fall under that umbrella, learning game, lifting weights, reading, training MMA, developing a sharp fashion sense, etc. Largely though I feel this is due out of necessity, guys need to literally step their game up in this competative dating market in the U.S. Whereas lame Euro guys, and here in Mexico especially, you see ugly dudes, short dudes, fat dudes, old dudes, etc. with hot chicks, that I seriously doubt they could ever land back in the USA.

I apologize if I sound like a hater, and in some ways I feel that I am being kind of a hater... I guess if anything it's born out of the frustation of having put in so much time and effort to better myself, for often paltry results, only to see guys who in my mind are less worthy, with hot chicks, that I doubt they could ever land if they had to deal with the sexual market in the US.

You're just used to being in the states it sounds like. That style probably works for them in Europe, and they may be looking at you like you're a strangely dressed American as well. I know the dress style you are talking about. But to be honest, I've seen some German men do really well in South America. Though they may dress different, it works for them. At the end of the day, if a German guy in capris is taking home a bad bitch and you're stuck with your dick in your hand, who really came out on top?

I've heard a lot of people from different cultures, men and women, tell me they thought the way americans dress is funny. And I've had many tell me the way we dress is cool. Either way, just do you. Go to Colombia and see the cats with rat tails, fanny packs, and nike shocks chillin' with bitches you wish you had, then you'll really feel the frustration. Yeah the Europeans have a different style, but it works for them. To be honest, a lot of them dress clean. Sure they have some qualities that would be considered feminine in the states. But what do you think foreigners think of American dudes wearing shirts that look like dresses with pants hanging bellow their waste?

The super funny thing about all this is I am sure we will see Douchebags and Hipsters in America wearing Capri pants in a season or two.

If they haven't started already.

[Every10GivesMeA10]

I think OG Norcal means WESTERN Europeans. I wouldn't call Eastern European men feminine.

I have to say I agree with his post, not all of it though. Western European men seem to have no problem walking their girlfriend's poodle after she's come home from work.

[el mechanico]

I've been saying what OG said since day one here it all true. Even the street thieves in Santo Domingo told me that Americans are the last choice of targets because they're unpredictable. Euro, Chinese etc are the gravy train for these dudes.

Also Euro dudes dress like metro-sexuals. Maybe the gay dudes here copy their style so we think it looks gay? Another thing is those glasses they wear. I think homosexuals design all the eye wear available in Europe. Did anyone say Birkenstock? That hasn't come up yet.

So, my cousin shows up from Greece and comes to my work wearing a tight t-shirt with some rainbow design and a fanny pack, sandals etc. I started giving him shit and he wanted to fight me until other relatives told him yes he's right you dress like a pusti here.

I saw this guy from Argentina yesterday I know and was thinking I've never met any dude from South America that could tell the truth and isn't a dick.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

I agree that a lot of Western European men are feminine and seem gay, at least more than North American men. That's why that old "gay or European" meme got started.

But I'll add that North American men often seem gay in comparison to Latin Americans and Eastern Europeans.

[20Nation]

This is one of the most common mistakes guys make when thinking what girls like. They think that because they feel a sense of respect for somebody with a ridiculous amount of muscle, that women will find it attractive. There are niche women that do, but most don't. Think about almost every movie made in the last 15 years. Does the meat head get the girl? No the dude with the natural athletic build gets the girl. I just spent 5 months in Asia, the longest I have spent abroad in my life. After returning to the gym I saw the body builders that I had seen in 5 months. It was disgusting, they looked liked mutants. I had never noticed, because I was so used to seeing them around. Body builders go way over the top on what is natural.

This being said I still think it's a good idea to go to the gym. Looking muscular in a natural way is attractive to women, and will make it less likely for dudes to cock block you.

[OGNorCal707]

(03-07-2013 09:46 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

I've been saying what OG said since day one here it all true. Even the street thieves in Santo Domingo told me that Americans are the last choice of targets because they're unpredictable. Euro, Chinese etc are the gravy train for these dudes.

Also Euro dudes dress like metro-sexuals. Maybe the gay dudes here copy their style so we think it looks gay? Another thing is those glasses they wear. I think homosexuals design all the eye wear available in Europe. Did anyone say Birkenstock? That hasn't come up yet.

So, my cousin shows up from Greece and comes to my work wearing a tight t-shirt with some rainbow design and a fanny pack, sandals etc. I started giving him shit and he wanted to fight me until other relatives told him yes he's right you dress like a pusti here.

I saw this guy from Argentina yesterday I know and was thinking I've never met any dude from South America that could tell the truth and isn't a dick.

El Mech your post literally made me laugh so hard I almost fell out of my chair: "So, my cousin shows up from Greece and comes to my work wearing a tight t-shirt with some rainbow design and a fanny pack, sandals etc. I started giving him shit and he wanted to fight me until other relatives told him yes he's right you dress like a pusti here."

[Every10GivesMeA10]

Quote:

I've been saying what OG said since day one here it all true. Even the street thieves in Santo Domingo told me that Americans are the last choice of targets because they're unpredictable. Euro, Chinese etc are the gravy train for these dudes.

Where I'm at right now #1 choice for robbers are white European (Dutch) men as well. Don't ask me why.

[el mechanico]

(03-07-2013 10:12 AM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  

Quote:

I've been saying what OG said since day one here it all true. Even the street thieves in Santo Domingo told me that Americans are the last choice of targets because they're unpredictable. Euro, Chinese etc are the gravy train for these dudes.

Where I'm at right now #1 choice for robbers are white European (Dutch) men as well. Don't ask me why.

[attachment=10355]

[Kentucky]

Western Europeans can be soft minus UK

Southern Europeans tend to be short and skinny naturally but are very macho (Sicily, South of Spain, Southern Portugal, etc) but don't fight for stupid reasons

Eastern Europeans are naturally very well built and can easily put on alot of muscle even if they eat fries and watch tv. Poles, Bulgarians, Russians in particular. Romanians are exception

Eastern Euro guys do it as a cultural thing farther than to get girls, it's more of a hobby and to stay strong. Same reason they are good at weightlifting and not football is because of their build.

Asking why they like weights and wrestling is like saying why do Jamaicans like running, or Mexicans boxing, or East Africans marathons- it's what their build and genetics gives them a great talent in and so culturally is celebrated

[Vicious]

Hard? Soft? Seeing how the US suffers under higher rates of obesity/overweight than any European country it has, by definition, softer people.

[el mechanico]

(03-07-2013 10:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Hard? Soft? Seeing how the US suffers under higher rates of obesity/overweight than any European country it has, by definition, softer people.

Vicious, there's muscle under the fat. Europeans are skinny fat.

[OGNorCal707]

So I'm glad our European forum members grew some balls... (Haha, just joking ) But seriously, it's like I got the European Union over here, I'm glad I was able to bring together so many Europeans to stand up for thier continent. I also didn't anticipate that this thread would ruffle quite so many feathers, but maybe that stands to be a good thing.

For the record I was referring to Western Europeans, as E. Europeans are completely different breed all together, and I would agree are quite more masculine typically than Americans or most men in the western world.

I don't get the visceral reaction from so many of our European bretheren on this forum. I straight up said that I was "painting broad strokes", which in other words means I was making generalizations, generalizations obviously don't apply to each and every person. But, usually stereotypes and generalizations are based partially on truth, whether it's pc or whether we like to admit it or not.

Next I straight up said that I'm not your most classically macho or masculine man, I am not trying to put myself on a pedestal as being this uber-macho badass, so I don't get why you guys are trying to clown and put words in my mouth and make me out to portray myself as something I am not. Maybe next time read my words more clearly, because if anything I am just being real and calling it like it is.

That said, I also want to clarify that I am not trying to make male masculinity as the end all be all of what is important in life. There are some super-masculine rednecks in the U.S. that are dumb as a rock, ignorant as fuck, and probably couldn't even point out Germany on a map... Do I think these kinds of people are cool and would I want to hang out with them... No. In that case I'd probably prefer to hang with the feminized Germans or French that can actually hold an interesting and intelligent conversation.

But, I still stand by what I wrote in the original post and I'm glad I got some people who stood up and acknowledged some truth to what I wrote. I'm about to check out of the hostel here soon, but as I type this, there is a French couple two computers down... They look the same, dress the same, and you can't tell which one of them is getting penetrated by the other. I swear I have never seen such a couple with such a masculine woman and such a feminine man. If space aliens landed on our planet from outer space and saw them, I really doubt they would be able to tell who is the man and who is the woman, if you get my drift.

That said, don't think because I use this couple as an example that I am trying to say that all French or all western Europeans are this way, that I am not. However, it would be really rare to see such a couple in the states, although we do have our certain subsets and subcultures of hipsters and others where the masculine and feminine polarities are completely out of whack. To be fair I will say that there is an American hipster here who looks gay as fuck, super short florescent blue shorts, some rainbow colored tank top, and a fanny pack... Again with the fucking fanny packs!! Ughh, but I digress.

Just like I am generalizing with Europeans, Europeans generalize with Americans... I feel like I have been an ambassador to the U.S. on this trip, because I feel like every other European I meet within a minute of being introduced starts talking shit on the U.S. and is grilling me about being American, and says how much everyone hates Americans. I understand because America can be full of ignorant dickheads , but just like everyone isn't a fat highschool drop out nascar fan, not every European is a gay, feminized, androgyous beta male. I take every person on a case by case basis, even though I have had bad experiences with the French, I still meet a new French person with an open mind and give them a chance to show me they are cool, even though 9/10 times they don't give me a chance and pigeonhole me because I'm American.

Final notes, when I talk about lifting weights and MMA, I am not trying to make these out to be pre-requisites for being a masculine man. In fact, too often I am annoyed as hell by your typical roided up meathead, or douchey tatted crazy agressive agro cage fighter. These are not people and lifestyles that I strive for or try to emulate. That said, I believe in bettering ones self and I believe it is basic human nature that is directly tied to masculinity for a man to have physical strength and be able to defend himself. Physical strength and ability to defend oneself tie into dominance and dominance ties into masculinity.

I have shit for genetics and am by no means a super jacked up dude, and by no means will I be fighting in the UFC, but I do what I can to improve my physical body and physical strength. I learn martial arts because it's a hobby and a lot of guys in the U.S. want to be a "tough guy" so the chances of landing yourself into a fight, even when you aren't looking for it are there. I also like to travel to countries that most of the square, mainstream world consider to be dangerous, so it's nice having the added piece of mind that I have some self-defense skills should I ever need to use them.

One of the last things I will touch on here, before I go, I straight up said in my OP that America can be a tough dating market, and that I find myself frustrated, if that's not self-depricating, I don't know what is. Then guys want to come in and talk even more shit and try to make me out to be some hateful loser that can't get laid. I was just making the point that in the U.S. you don't see such mismatched couples, due to the dynamics of the dating market. For the record, my wording wasn't very clear, but I was mostly referring to seeing mismatched Mexican couples, where the chick is fine, but the dude is short, ugly, fat, old, or dresses like shit.

I have seen mismatched European couples for sure, but it's not like I see European dudes pulling Mexican chicks down here, and not even very many pulling other tourist chicks, it's always dudes with their girlfriends that I am thinking of and referring to. More power to them I guess, I have never been one to promote haterism, and I even call myself on it and admit it when I find myself falling into that negative thought and energy vortex.

I hope this addressed your issue boys, now go eat some steak and eggs, hit the gym, and burn those fucking capris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rhodey]

(03-07-2013 10:46 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

So I'm glad our European forum members grew some balls... (Haha, just joking ) But seriously, it's like I got the European Union over here, I'm glad I was able to bring together so many Europeans to stand up for thier continent. I also didn't anticipate that this thread would ruffle quite so many feathers, but maybe that stands to be a good thing.

For the record I was referring to Western Europeans, as E. Europeans are completely different breed all together, and I would agree are quite more masculine typically than Americans or most men in the western world.

I don't get the visceral reaction from so many of our European bretheren on this forum. I straight up said that I was "painting broad strokes", which in other words means I was making generalizations, generalizations obviously don't apply to each and every person. But, usually stereotypes and generalizations are based partially on truth, whether it's pc or whether we like to admit it or not.

Next I straight up said that I'm not your most classically macho or masculine man, I am not trying to put myself on a pedestal as being this uber-macho badass, so I don't get why you guys are trying to clown and put words in my mouth and make me out to portray myself as something I am not. Maybe next time read my words more clearly, because if anything I am just being real and calling it like it is.

That said, I also want to clarify that I am not trying to make male masculinity as the end all be all of what is important in life. There are some super-masculine rednecks in the U.S. that are dumb as a rock, ignorant as fuck, and probably couldn't even point out Germany on a map... Do I think these kinds of people are cool and would I want to hang out with them... No. In that case I'd probably prefer to hang with the feminized Germans or French that can actually hold an interesting and intelligent conversation.

But, I still stand by what I wrote in the original post and I'm glad I got some people who stood up and acknowledged some truth to what I wrote. I'm about to check out of the hostel here soon, but as I type this, there is a French couple two computers down... They look the same, dress the same, and you can't tell which one of them is getting penetrated by the other. I swear I have never seen such a couple with such a masculine woman and such a feminine man. If space aliens landed on our planet from outer space and saw them, I really doubt they would be able to tell who is the man and who is the woman, if you get my drift.

That said, don't think because I use this couple as an example that I am trying to say that all French or all western Europeans are this way, that I am not. However, it would be really rare to see such a couple in the states, although we do have our certain subsets and subcultures of hipsters and others where the masculine and feminine polarities are completely out of whack. To be fair I will say that there is an American hipster here who looks gay as fuck, super short florescent blue shorts, some rainbow colored tank top, and a fanny pack... Again with the fucking fanny packs!! Ughh, but I digress.

Just like I am generalizing with Europeans, Europeans generalize with Americans... I feel like I have been an ambassador to the U.S. on this trip, because I feel like every other European I meet within a minute of being introduced starts talking shit on the U.S. and is grilling me about being American, and says how much everyone hates Americans. I understand because America can be full of ignorant dickheads , but just like everyone isn't a fat highschool drop out nascar fan, not every European is a gay, feminized, androgyous beta male. I take every person on a case by case basis, even though I have had bad experiences with the French, I still meet a new French person with an open mind and give them a chance to show me they are cool, even though 9/10 times they don't give me a chance and pigeonhole me because I'm American.

Final notes, when I talk about lifting weights and MMA, I am not trying to make these out to be pre-requisites for being a masculine man. In fact, too often I am annoyed as hell by your typical roided up meathead, or douchey tatted crazy agressive agro cage fighter. These are not people and lifestyles that I strive for or try to emulate. That said, I believe in bettering ones self and I believe it is basic human nature that is directly tied to masculinity for a man to have physical strength and be able to defend himself. Physical strength and ability to defend oneself tie into dominance and dominance ties into masculinity.

I have shit for genetics and am by no means a super jacked up dude, and by no means will I be fighting in the UFC, but I do what I can to improve my physical body and physical strength. I learn martial arts because it's a hobby and a lot of guys in the U.S. want to be a "tough guy" so the chances of landing yourself into a fight, even when you aren't looking for it are there. I also like to travel to countries that most of the square, mainstream world consider to be dangerous, so it's nice having the added piece of mind that I have some self-defense skills should I ever need to use them.

One of the last things I will touch on here, before I go, I straight up said in my OP that America can be a tough dating market, and that I find myself frustrated, if that's not self-depricating, I don't know what is. Then guys want to come in and talk even more shit and try to make me out to be some hateful loser that can't get laid. I was just making the point that in the U.S. you don't see such mismatched couples, due to the dynamics of the dating market. For the record, my wording wasn't very clear, but I was mostly referring to seeing mismatched Mexican couples, where the chick is fine, but the dude is short, ugly, fat, old, or dresses like shit.

I have seen mismatched European couples for sure, but it's not like I see European dudes pulling Mexican chicks down here, and not even very many pulling other tourist chicks, it's always dudes with their girlfriends that I am thinking of and referring to. More power to them I guess, I have never been one to promote haterism, and I even call myself on it and admit it when I find myself falling into that negative thought and energy vortex.

I hope this addressed your issue boys, now go eat some steak and eggs, hit the gym, and burn those fucking capris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just messing with ya, you definitely do have a valid point.

[thegmanifesto]

(03-07-2013 10:44 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 10:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Hard? Soft? Seeing how the US suffers under higher rates of obesity/overweight than any European country it has, by definition, softer people.

Vicious, there's muscle under the fat. Europeans are skinny fat.

Ha.

This thread is so hilarious.

[Aliblahba]

(03-07-2013 10:44 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 10:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Hard? Soft? Seeing how the US suffers under higher rates of obesity/overweight than any European country it has, by definition, softer people.

Vicious, there's muscle under the fat. Europeans are skinny fat.

Exactly. There are plenty of overweight guys here in the south, but they'll tear your limbs off once they get a hold of you.

Not all Euro dudes are pussies. U.K'ers will fight. I respect that. Russians scare me. I tread lightly in Estonia. But when you are talking about Spain, France, Germany, ect. you'll wear yourself looking for someone that doesn't look like they come from Queer Eye For the Straight Guy.

OG's experience might be limited, but I've traveled more, and I agree with his OP.

[Vicious]

(03-07-2013 11:25 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 10:44 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 10:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Hard? Soft? Seeing how the US suffers under higher rates of obesity/overweight than any European country it has, by definition, softer people.

Vicious, there's muscle under the fat. Europeans are skinny fat.

Exactly. There are plenty of overweight guys here in the south, but they'll tear your limbs off once they get a hold of you.

Get a hold of me? Kinda hard with a heart attack after 25 yards.

But seriously, this mental flexing - comparing hard/soft over cultures with yourself as a reference. To me this act by itself reeks of insecurity and seems well, rather gay.

[misello]

(03-07-2013 10:12 AM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  

Quote:

I've been saying what OG said since day one here it all true. Even the street thieves in Santo Domingo told me that Americans are the last choice of targets because they're unpredictable. Euro, Chinese etc are the gravy train for these dudes.

Where I'm at right now #1 choice for robbers are white European (Dutch) men as well. Don't ask me why.

Unfortunately I can imagine that having grown up mainly in Holland. One time me and a Colombian friend were playing beerpong against two Dutch guys. The Colombian was yelling at them, calling them pussies the entire time, then started laughing in their face when we won. They didnt say anything, just came over and shook our hands to congratulate us. I wouldnt say Dutch guys are so beta but in that aspect they are.

Makes it weird there are so many good Dutch fighters in K1..

[Roosh]

1. EE guys who try to get laid in the West have a lot of problems. They're attractive to their girls but can't seem to attract Western girls. This is not an insult, as their girls are better, but their game doesn't adapt as well like an American's.

2. If I generalized about Thai guys based on seeing a few outside of Thailand, I'd be skewered. OG's sample size is too small.

[temujin]

(03-07-2013 11:32 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 11:25 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 10:44 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 10:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Hard? Soft? Seeing how the US suffers under higher rates of obesity/overweight than any European country it has, by definition, softer people.

Vicious, there's muscle under the fat. Europeans are skinny fat.

Exactly. There are plenty of overweight guys here in the south, but they'll tear your limbs off once they get a hold of you.

Get a hold of me? Kinda hard with a heart attack after 25 yards.

But seriously, this mental flexing - comparing hard/soft over cultures with yourself as a reference. To me this act by itself reeks of insecurity and seems well, rather gay.

It's insecurity, usually common among American whiggers (white guys who want to be black) or chiggers (Asian guys who try to make up for their asexual stereotype by acting "hard")...but not just limited to these groups. It's pathetic the number of black and white guys who, for example, obsess over body building and "jelqing" (trying to get their dicks bigger). Unhealthiness all around.

There's a difference between being masculine and sexual (which is good) and holding your dick in your hand while looking down on other guys because they're not as "hard" as you. What is this, a men's prison?

[temujin]

And in the spirit of fun.

Soft Swedish guy gettin' to work:




Hard American guys tearing up Europe:

[worldwidetraveler]

European El Mech.





European Ali



European Fisto




European Tenderman



European Gman



European Tuthmosis



European Roosh



European Houston

[Kentucky]

If you look at a map of Europe you'll see that the vast majority is what is known as 'eastern Europe' Inclyding coubtries such as Czech

The Scandinavians should be tough as they are naturally physically strong and do well in boxing and mma but there culture is too beta.

Dutch are not pussies, they would probably kill the average American in a fight.

It is a sign of barbarism that mma and weights are so important to get chicks. It's because of the USA's militaristic culture

There are more aggressive cultures and bigger barbarians but I don't feel this is something to be proud of.

[Greek kamaki]

Actually in the last 10 years there is hardly any American who has beat the slavic beasts in heavy weight boxing like Klitsko, Potevkin, Valuev etc.Slavic body type has proved superior in martial arts.