Historically, fighters have either been rather lean (Anderson Silva, 98% of the guys in my platoon) or a bit chubby (Roman gladiators, Fedor Emelianenko, Daniel Cormier, Bane) each body type has certain advantages

Quote: (07-02-2013 10:01 PM)A War You Cannot Win Wrote:  

Historically, fighters have either been rather lean (Anderson Silva, 98% of the guys in my platoon) or a bit chubby (Roman gladiators, Fedor Emelianenko, Daniel Cormier, Bane) each body type has certain advantages

The fat ones are only in the heavy weight class. There's no real advantage, other than being able to use their weight to pin people. They just don't have to worry about cutting.

Don't be delusional: Women are attracted to looks.

A narrow waist and broad shoulders.
Muscles underneath healthy, glowing skin.
Absence of abdominal fat.
A proper jawline and straight, white teeth.

Why is this attractive to women?

Same reasons we like hot babes: good fitness.

Good genes.
Good development (good genes with shitty execution is still shitty).
Low parasite load (wiki).
Good immune system.
And the ability to get shit done...

And in that last one lies the counter argument:

Don't be delusional: Women are attracted to power.

Women want the hot guy, but not to masturbate to his image.
He's on the cover of romance novels, so they can fantasize about this hot guy getting shit done.
He's in the lead role of a movie, in a role of power. That is the hotness.

Power: Ability to control your environment.

Your muscles are the way your brain exerts control over the outside world.

While your brain is essential, and your speech-enabling muscles give you the power of spitting verbal game, a brilliant dark-triad brain in a weak body is not going to be optimally powerful (yes, it will outperform a weak brain in a weak body, but is that your benchmark).

Conclusion: Women are attracted to powerful bodies.

A bunch of muscle on a static man is not powerful.
Way less muscle on an effective sprinter or boxer is powerful.
Make sure your muscles are an end, not the means.

What can the muscles do?

Don't go to the gym thinking that when you have muscles you can just prance around being attractive. You will get more opportunities, but you still have to act. That's why insecure guys who hit the gym and juice and get swole end up disappointed. It's projecting our own preference of static beauty on girls, who have a preference of 'effective beauty'.

Excellent post ^

Extra muscle requires more oxygen which is why fighters with big muscles often have stamina issues. It doesn't really help with punching power either. Some guys just hit hard whether they are skinny, fat, or muscular. I've been hit by guys that were massive and barely felt a thing, whereas I've been in with a WBC bantamweight world champion while training in Thailand, and he stunned me with just his jab.

For those saying Pitt and Rollins have the same body, really? In these pictures Pitt is way leaner and has considerably more mass (you can see this in the roundness of his delts and the thickness of his arms compared to Rollins). He is also really well put together with wide clavicles, narrow hips, and good muscle insertion points.

Relevant review paper:

"Why Is Muscularity Sexy? Tests of the Fitness Indicator Hypothesis"

Quote:Quote:

Evolutionary scientists propose that exaggerated secondary sexual characteristics are cues of genes that increase offspring viability or reproductive success. In six studies the hypothesis that muscularity is one such cue is tested. As predicted, women rate muscular men as sexier, more physically dominant and volatile, and less committed to their mates than nonmuscular men.

Girls have told me a few times they think I'm good for sex, not relationships. At least that's honest. The hamsterbating part might be that they would want me to commit, but say it as a preventive measure because they know I won't.

Quote:Quote:

Consistent with past research on fitness cues, across two measures, women indicate that their most recent shortterm sex partners were more muscular than their other sex partners (ds = .36, .47).

Muscles are effective for short-term relationships, or as we know it, the pump-and-dump.

Quote:Quote:

Across three studies, when controlling for other characteristics (e.g., body fat), muscular men rate their bodies as sexier to women (partial rs = .49-.62) and report more lifetime sex partners (partial rs = .20-.27), short-term partners (partial rs = .25-.28), and more affairs with mated women (partial r = .28).

Quote: (07-02-2013 11:58 PM)20Nation Wrote:  

Quote: (07-02-2013 10:01 PM)A War You Cannot Win Wrote:  

Historically, fighters have either been rather lean (Anderson Silva, 98% of the guys in my platoon) or a bit chubby (Roman gladiators, Fedor Emelianenko, Daniel Cormier, Bane) each body type has certain advantages

The fat ones are only in the heavy weight class. There's no real advantage, other than being able to use their weight to pin people. They just don't have to worry about cutting.

Gladiators were chubby because the fat provided extra protection against superficial cuts and slashes. Helps having a layer of fat protecting some of your organs.

BJ Penn is chubby and was considered the best Lightweight MMAist in the world for years.

Fedor Emelianenko and Daniel Cormier carry some fat around their mid sections but they could easily cut to light heavyweight, they never were even close to be the biggest in their weight class.


When Fedor was in opponent's full guard for GnP, the extra space his tummy created allowed his punches to travel extra distance until contact; thus lending more power to his GnP.

Chubbier dudes also tend to have a lower center of gravity, which is useful for defending when someone try to shoot on you.

Here is chubby Tim Whitherspoon destroying super jacked Frank Bruno:












Bruno did dress sharp though (although if he is wearing a Suit, he must be a beta, right?):

Quote: (07-03-2013 05:14 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

Extra muscle requires more oxygen which is why fighters with big muscles often have stamina issues. It doesn't really help with punching power either. Some guys just hit hard whether they are skinny, fat, or muscular. I've been hit by guys that were massive and barely felt a thing, whereas I've been in with a WBC bantamweight world champion while training in Thailand, and he stunned me with just his jab.

Punching power is to do with torquing the body and all comes from the hips, right? The arms are just levers.

Quote: (07-04-2013 08:25 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Quote: (07-03-2013 05:14 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

Extra muscle requires more oxygen which is why fighters with big muscles often have stamina issues. It doesn't really help with punching power either. Some guys just hit hard whether they are skinny, fat, or muscular. I've been hit by guys that were massive and barely felt a thing, whereas I've been in with a WBC bantamweight world champion while training in Thailand, and he stunned me with just his jab.

Punching power is to do with torquing the body and all comes from the hips, right? The arms are just levers.

Yeah, correct technique is important, but how hard somebody hits is pretty much determined by birth. You can improve slightly through working on sitting down more on your punches, developing better timing and accuracy, and strength training, but punchers like Naseem Hamed that could KO guys when moving backwards and off balance are born not made.

Quote: (07-04-2013 10:49 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

Quote: (07-04-2013 08:25 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Quote: (07-03-2013 05:14 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

Extra muscle requires more oxygen which is why fighters with big muscles often have stamina issues. It doesn't really help with punching power either. Some guys just hit hard whether they are skinny, fat, or muscular. I've been hit by guys that were massive and barely felt a thing, whereas I've been in with a WBC bantamweight world champion while training in Thailand, and he stunned me with just his jab.

Punching power is to do with torquing the body and all comes from the hips, right? The arms are just levers.

Yeah, correct technique is important, but how hard somebody hits is pretty much determined by birth. You can improve slightly through working on sitting down more on your punches, developing better timing and accuracy, and strength training, but punchers like Naseem Hamed that could KO guys when moving backwards and off balance are born not made.

I think there is a lot of truth to that.

Technique is super important, but some guys just have heavy hands.

This guy impresses me:

Quote: (07-04-2013 10:55 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote: (07-04-2013 10:49 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

Quote: (07-04-2013 08:25 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Quote: (07-03-2013 05:14 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

Extra muscle requires more oxygen which is why fighters with big muscles often have stamina issues. It doesn't really help with punching power either. Some guys just hit hard whether they are skinny, fat, or muscular. I've been hit by guys that were massive and barely felt a thing, whereas I've been in with a WBC bantamweight world champion while training in Thailand, and he stunned me with just his jab.

Punching power is to do with torquing the body and all comes from the hips, right? The arms are just levers.

Yeah, correct technique is important, but how hard somebody hits is pretty much determined by birth. You can improve slightly through working on sitting down more on your punches, developing better timing and accuracy, and strength training, but punchers like Naseem Hamed that could KO guys when moving backwards and off balance are born not made.

I think there is a lot of truth to that.

Technique is super important, but some guys just have heavy hands.

This guy impresses me:

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I don't see anyone beating that guy at 154 or 160.

Yeah Golovkin looks great, great fundamentals and power in both hands, plus he has a good amateur background of 350 plus fights with only a few losses apparently.

Hearns is an example of somebody that improved his punching power through technique. The power was already there though, Steward just taught him how to use it:

Despite his vaunted right hand, Hearns said that he was not a knockout artist until being developed by legendary trainer Manny Steward at The Kronk Gym in Detroit.

"The Kronk brought it out of me. Emanuel Steward brought it out of me because he showed me how and I learned how to put my weight behind my punches," said Hearns.

"Before that, I was just arm-punching and winning and every once in a blue moon, I would stop a guy. Once Emanuel showed me how to sit down on my punches, that's all that it took...I started to gain respect. It was in my blood after that."

And here is a great example of Hearns at Kronk teaching Bradley how to throw the right hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1GtrWw09eE

You are right, Gennady Golovkin has great technique along with heavy hands.

I didn't mean to use him as an example of what I was talking about. I kind of combined two thoughts into one.

Kostya Tszyu is probably a better example of a guy with not the best technique but super heavy hands.






Ricardo Mayorga would probably be an even better example.

His hands were super heavy. Not too explosive, but he literally clubbed guys to death.

Quote: (07-02-2013 09:07 PM)nek Wrote:  

From training in MMA for a while, I kind of get where the "brad pitt fight club" type physique might be the more favorable one. A lot of guys come into the gym with large intimidating physiques, but when it comes time to spar/roll, it doesn't translate to "fight strength" as much (yes I made that term up). This shock to a lot of these overly bigger guys causes a lot of them to not show up after a few weeks, it kind of throws them in a loop when they can't keep a guy smaller than them pinned down very well. However, for those larger guys who stay, an interesting metamorphosis takes place. Their arms, shoulders start to shrink a bit but this "fight strength" along with their aggression start to sky-rocket. So they don't look as big as before and they lean out, but you can feel the difference in their punches and when they grab a hold of you (granted, grip strength always increases training BJJ). And when they're on top of you, you feel it now far more than when they were bigger.

So in essence, the "brad pitt fight club" look might be more in tune with the look of someone who can win in a fight as opposed to the more body builder look. Take a look at a lot of the UFC guys. They're cut more than big. Even the big guys don't have the really bulbous looking muscles. Just something to think about.

This is very true. Even at a regular work out gym (non-sparing), I see many guys that outweigh me by 30-40 lbs or more, yet they can clearly see I'm working out 2x or 3x harder than they are, drenched in sweat while they leave dry, and they know I'm probably not someone they want to fuck with. Size isn't everything.

Quote: (07-04-2013 10:49 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

Yeah, correct technique is important, but how hard somebody hits is pretty much determined by birth. You can improve slightly through working on sitting down more on your punches, developing better timing and accuracy, and strength training, but punchers like Naseem Hamed that could KO guys when moving backwards and off balance are born not made.

+1. I'd even add (but it is just my opinion) that being a real boxing competitor is also determined very soon. Some guys go up on the ring with the same coolness/blood pressure that they have when they go to see a movie or have a drink with friends. Impressing. It is inborn IMO.

But I digress, sorry.

Quote: (07-04-2013 10:55 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Technique is super important, but some guys just have heavy hands.

Rob Kaman had heavy hands and heavy legs.

This thread is making me want to take some boxing/kickboxing/muay thai classes damn it.

About the bodybuilder vs fit look, I think humans can tell on a visceral sense that a fit body is healthier and more capable than an outlier bodybuilder body.

I'm guilty of working out simply to attract women.

The big vs. fit thing gets argued so much but I'm not sure why...it's not like you can become big (and not fat) without becoming fit first. To do a proper "bulk" you need to get your bodyfat down prior. At least it seems that way to me...I'm not as experienced as many here.

Big and lean

What impressed about that video that gmanifesto posted was that guy on a few of these fights didn't take another punch when he saw his opponent going down. He had some mercy, I can respect that.

I got the most pussy when i was 6% body fat. Muscle didn't matter. Ironically, i had a lot of gay dudes hit of me.

There's something to low body fat.

Quote: (01-08-2014 07:46 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

I got the most pussy when i was 6% body fat. Muscle didn't matter. Ironically, i had a lot of gay dudes hit of me.

There's something to low body fat.

6% ?

are you a professional athlete?

Quote: (01-08-2014 07:46 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

I got the most pussy when i was 6% body fat. Muscle didn't matter. Ironically, i had a lot of gay dudes hit of me.

There's something to low body fat.

Why is this cause and effect ironic? Are gay guys supposed to like fat dudes?