[MikeCF]

(10-10-2011 05:47 PM)CupCake Wrote:  

I hope you chunky dudes realize how good you have it. I'm scrawny as fuck and can't gain a pound.

Read and follow "Scrawy to Brawny" <-- or similar title. By JOhn Berardi.

It will work *IF* you apply it.

[Scarlet_Terror]

As a tall and slim guy, I'm actually disgusted by how many dudes with 'average' or 'chubby' bodies can pull girls, or the girls don't care. I've heard quite a few girls say they'd prefer a chubby guy over a skinny dude, even if the skinny dude is tone as hell.

Blech.

[MikeCF]

(10-11-2011 02:26 PM)Scarlet_Terror Wrote:  

As a tall and slim guy, I'm actually disgusted by how many dudes with 'average' or 'chubby' bodies can pull girls, or the girls don't care. I've heard quite a few girls say they'd prefer a chubby guy over a skinny dude, even if the skinny dude is tone as hell.

Blech.

Has being "disgusted" changed your life?

Look for another way.

[_DC_]

(10-08-2011 10:21 PM)that guy Wrote:  

(10-07-2011 09:49 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

that dude is too big imo. to much of the body builder meat head look.

this is more like it.

I agree, I think this is much closer to the look most women would be into. Not super huge, but still muscular and cut. I think this would appeal to the widest range of females.

Note the forearms. Alot of women pay very close attention to a guy with good, strong looking forearms. Calf muscles too.

OK. I simply don't get all of the denial here of the survey's message e.g. "this would appeal to the widest range of females" [the beefy dude].

I agree that the above male has what is in my mind to be an ideal body type. As in, I'd be the most pleased with a similar figure. However the entire point of the web post is that what appeals to the widest range of females and the widest range of males is vastly different. I will take a website with over 1000 detailed replies from both men and women over the opinion of one man any day (regardless of how sure he is that the beefy build is better).

Someone said that girls don't know what they want or what they say and do are different, however I think this is completely untrue for an anonymous internet survey. A girl tells you she doesn't want to have sex tonight to your face is an obvious green light, but this sort of logic doesn't apply to an anonymous survey. Somebody also said that warpigs and donkeys would pick the least attractive person since their standards are down, however again this makes no sense. The thin/toned but not scrawny guys are overwhelmingly preferred, but how many pick the chubby guys? Almost ZERO.

The only valid rebuttal to the survey is the possibility that the most attractive girls prefer the beefier guys. Unfortunately, this is impossible to determine from the survey given that the girl survey takers weren't evaluated on their looks (damn).

I think one thing is safe to say though (and this has been an echoing sentiment throughout the thread). Having more muscle generally will not hurt you in any circumstance. Even the dude in the picture above took years of solid training most likely. You don't just accidentally put on all that muscle overnight.

Also, keep the body fat low. This seems to be universally true in the survey above.

[Jalouse]

(10-10-2011 06:10 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(10-10-2011 05:47 PM)CupCake Wrote:  

I hope you chunky dudes realize how good you have it. I'm scrawny as fuck and can't gain a pound.

yeah you can you just haven't been dedicated to it. Every skinny dude says they can't put weight on, just like a lot of fat guys say they got screwed with a slow metabolism and they cant keep weight off. Then when you break down their diets it's all crystal clear why ones not gaining and one can't stop gaining. One of my buddies used to say the same thing, eat all day can't put on a pound, found alcohol now he's got a beer gut, he could put on the weight he just was never putting in the cals to get his weight up, now he got it up the bad way but if he adjusted and took those cals in as healthy cals it'd look different on him.

I second this, I just had a month where I worked out pretty hard, didn't gain a pound, basically because I didn't adjust my diet.
Now I'm a couple of weeks into a second month of working out, I've been doing exactly the same workout in the gym but eating way more protein, already I can see much better results.

[_DC_]

Any new incites with summer coming up? Any new perspectives now that the board seems to have more participants?

[hoops330]

From my experience and conversations with women, they tend to be turned off buy a guy that is completely ripped to shreds. It signals 1) conceited and narcissistic 2) spends too much time at the gym and is probably not well-rounded in another aspects of life 3) he has to watch his diet so closely that he cant go out and party and most importantly 4) if he is spending so much time at the gym then he doesnt have as much time for me.

No disrespect to those members who put the hard work in to get ripped to shreds.

[Gixxermuscle]

(04-10-2012 10:37 PM)hoops330 Wrote:  

From my experience and conversations with women, they tend to be turned off buy a guy that is completely ripped to shreds. It signals 1) conceited and narcissistic 2) spends too much time at the gym and is probably not well-rounded in another aspects of life 3) he has to watch his diet so closely that he cant go out and party and most importantly 4) if he is spending so much time at the gym then he doesnt have as much time for me.

No disrespect to those members who put the hard work in to get ripped to shreds.

With regards to hot chicks
1) Many hot chicks are irresistibly attracted to a narcissistic dude (dark triad trait)
2) Women are attracted to men who have hobbies and are not doting on them. 1-1.5 hrs x 4 days a week is a tiny investment.
3) Diet is a valid complaint, however leangains and other strategies can help assuage this concern. Partying? For many this is not affective to the determent of females.
4) See 3.

Women say one thing, do another.

[Excelsior]

(04-10-2012 08:31 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

Any new incites with summer coming up? Any new perspectives now that the board seems to have more participants?

I haven't added my two cents to this thread yet, so I think I shall do so now: Get some traps. Bitches love traps.

No, seriously. Shoulders will be seen well before your abs and arms, and are instantly distinctive. Building broad, defined shoulders is a good way to attract positive attention quickly. Combine large traps with a leaner, muscular frame (sort of like the last picture in this thread, maybe slightly bulkier) and you've got a solid combo.

Think this:


Fairly lean but muscular frame yet still bulky in certain places, particularly the shoulders and arms. This is basically my body type, and reviews are good. Reggie Bush is another good type to follow:



His traps aren't quite as massive, but are still much bigger than average and very noticeable, and he's got solid core and arm definition.

Upsides:

Again, as I said, this type of body gets good reviews from most regular kinds of chicks, and by 'good reviews", I mean blatant IOIs, eyefucking and other general signs of attraction. Girls dig the fact that you're athletic without looking like a freak. I think it's a good model to aim for. I personally believe it is the ideal physical compromise (lean enough not to frighten most folks, still bulky enough to impress many and standout).

Downsides:

Granted, you can still scare girls off, even if you're inciting a lot of attraction. hoops330 isn't wrong when he says that girls can take muscularity (sign of high testosterone) as a negative. He omits the main reason for this, though, aside from the fear that you'll be a vain douchebag: unattainability.

Any fear she has about your being a vain douchebag stems from this-after all, the reason you'd potentially be vain/conceited is because you're good looking and probably have options. She fears such a man would have a big head, too big for her to have any room in his life.

Many girls, deep down, feel that the better looking and more blatantly masculine a guy is, the harder he will be to keep. They may love his body, but they'll love it less if they feel they have to share it with other girls. If they're seeking nothing but short-term things, this might be ok, but if she is like most girls she will prefer commitment at some point. If you're fit and attractive enough to make her feel insecure about her ability to secure that commitment from you, she'll shy away. You might get a quick hook-up and little contact from her afterwards, or you may get no positive reaction at all.

A big part of your game must be to build some rapport/comfort to combat this insecurity. Some girls are obviously more insecure than others, but when you look like this you can incite such insecurity within even the more confident, attractive girls around. As intimidated as I have been approaching some of these women, many were far more frightened than I was, and I didn't even know it.

This comes with the territory.

Upside:

If pursuing a short term mating strategy, however, this type of body can be invaluable. Girls going through sport fuck phases might seek you out, since this type of body is a sign of a male who fits a short-term mating strategy (a Cad, not a Dad). They'll shy away from dating you, but you'll get laid. For some guys, this is ideal.

Downside (again):

Be forewarned that smarter women select against Cads, which means you'll need to beware if you live in an environment filled with such women-looking like this can actually be a big disadvantage there. Your body will signal "cad" (we're hardwired to get that impression from higher muscularity, which is tied to higher testosterone levels), and they'll be on hyper alert, even if attracted. My observation has been this: The smarter a girl is, the less likely she is to favor this type of body.
It is safer to go leaner (less muscle mass, preferably) for the smarter, richer Ivy-type girls. Think men's lacrosse player:







(As a matter of fact, you may want to check out the photos on the "Duke Fuck List" to get an idea of what this type of woman would prefer-those are what their dream men look like)

I like to file this under the "Things I wish I knew before I became an Ivy Leaguer" category. I scare a lot of girls away, and as a freshman/sophomore I didn't even realize I was that intimidating. A lack of situational awareness like that can really annihilate one's game-twas a valuable, if challenging lesson to learn.

Anyway, both of these photo examples I've shown so far are NFL runningbacks. College and pro football players at positions like runningback, receiver, or defensive back tend to be the best models to use for the average guy looking to set a goal. Linebackers and other bulkier players are also very fit, but more freakishly so.

To use an example, Ray Lewis:




These guys are more beyond the norms that work the best for pickup and other pursuits. You need freakish genetics (among other things) to pull that type of definition off at over 240/250lbs. For normal folks, solid and still impressive physiques are very attainable without getting that huge.

Just my two cents...

[_DC_]

Athlone, thanks for your input. How do you reconcile then your opinion with the results of the survey (first post)?

Brad Pitt weighs about 100 lbs less than the people above. I believe he was about 155 lbs in Fight Club and 6'. The same is true for soccer players.

I don't buy the theory that the girls (some 500) on an anonymous internet survey didn't know what they desired or were intimidated by what the truly wanted, which has been argued above. I think this is most evident in the extremely low votes for both the pudgy guys as well as the super skinny guys, which under this argument would get a decent amount of votes. Furthermore, the muscle people e.g. Ryan Reynolds got a sizable vote, although a minority over the less muscular guy (i believe the trainer from Biggest Loser).

The only rebuttal to the survey that could logically hold some water IMO is that the girls who picked the more muscular guys were more attractive themselves. Of course, all we care about is what the attractive girls want, so this is a valid point. This is impossible to account for in the survey though, so its pure speculation.

I suppose be in shape (low bodyfat and toned) then get as big as you wish! You'll be a different girls ideal all along the way. You can't please everyone.

[Basil Ransom]

(04-11-2012 12:13 AM)_DC_ Wrote:  

The only rebuttal to the survey that could logically hold some water IMO is that the girls who picked the more muscular guys were more attractive themselves.

Your hunch is correct. Sources: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...6909001779
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/c...2/39.short

I've already posted in this thread why you can take survey results with a grain of salt. But the biggest piece of evidence to me is the answer to the question "Have your results gotten worse since you got bigger?" And every time I've asked, the answer is no. And bigger = same bodyfat %, more muscle mass. Or lower bodyfat %, same bodyweight. There is such a thing as 'too big,' but getting there is remote if not impossible for most men - it's not something they'd have to worry about.

Going to disagree with Athlone here somewhat. While I could see a girl being intimidated into not approaching you, I don't see her refusing you once you approach, with the appropriate game. Go light on the cockiness. Girls are so delusional and noncomittal these days that they don't even think in those terms of "this guy won't commit so I shouldn't talk to him." Also, girls desire muscle most when they are horniest, i.e. when they're ovulating. Which is when they're most likely to bang.

Not that I'm that big, but I'm fairly good looking, and I never get the feeling that ugly girls are intimidated by talking to me. They get excited, because they think me merely talking to them means finally! a cute guy is interested in them.

However, if you're an outsider, and much bigger than they're used to, I could see it starting to seem like a disadvantage, and being black won't help either.

As for the lax brahs, their status from playing lax is going to be far far more important than any body they could attain. If I were a betting man, I'd take the top dude on the lacrosse team over the dude with the best physique, for who could slay more hot pussy on a college campus.

[soup]

Is all this emphasis on being muscular misplaced? From everything I've read, including all the old PUA stuff, Roissy, etc. looks are only 1/5 of what's important for female attraction, whereas for guys, it's like 90%.

Are we just crudely using our own attraction standards to define girls' here?

From what I know, girls just want you to a) not be fat, b) not look you'd get your ass kicked if you got into a fight.

But, there are guys who are fat, and guys who would get their asses kicked who are getting very attractive girls.

[Deluge]

(04-11-2012 04:48 AM)soup Wrote:  

Is all this emphasis on being muscular misplaced? From everything I've read, including all the old PUA stuff, Roissy, etc. looks are only 1/5 of what's important for female attraction, whereas for guys, it's like 90%.

Are we just crudely using our own attraction standards to define girls' here?

From what I know, girls just want you to a) not be fat, b) not look you'd get your ass kicked if you got into a fight.

But, there are guys who are fat, and guys who would get their asses kicked who are getting very attractive girls.

Even if it's 1/5th, that's still fairly significant. "The Power of Aesthetics" http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-11739.html
The fact it is, what is one good reason not to be stronger and more muscular? Even if it doesn't directly change how attracted any one girl is to you, it will make you feel more confident which will improve your game. Self-improvement should be all encompassing and your health and looks (fitness and dress) is an area that every guy should strive to improve.

[soup]

(04-11-2012 05:04 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

(04-11-2012 04:48 AM)soup Wrote:  

Is all this emphasis on being muscular misplaced? From everything I've read, including all the old PUA stuff, Roissy, etc. looks are only 1/5 of what's important for female attraction, whereas for guys, it's like 90%.

Are we just crudely using our own attraction standards to define girls' here?

From what I know, girls just want you to a) not be fat, b) not look you'd get your ass kicked if you got into a fight.

But, there are guys who are fat, and guys who would get their asses kicked who are getting very attractive girls.

Even if it's 1/5th, that's still fairly significant. "The Power of Aesthetics" http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-11739.html
The fact it is, what is one good reason not to be stronger and more muscular? Even if it doesn't directly change how attracted any one girl is to you, it will make you feel more confident which will improve your game. Self-improvement should be all encompassing and your health and looks (fitness and dress) is an area that every guy should strive to improve.

I agree that being healthy and in-shape is important, but being stronger and more muscular ad infinitum?

I think my gripe with this is that, yes it is important, but after just being in-shape (and having definition) it seems like more of a lifestyle thing then a game thing.

[Giovonny]

Quote:

From everything I've read, including all the old PUA stuff, Roissy, etc. looks are only 1/5 of what's important for female attraction

I think looks are alot more important then this. Only 1/5 ??? That can't be right! Girls are very much into looks. The more good looking you are the more girls you attract. Girls love aesthetics.

Working out accomplishes a couple things; it makes you more physically attractive, it builds confidence, and it releases testosterone.

I think its more like 3/5's or even 3.5/5's.

Looking good is at least half the battle.

Of course, it all depends on your unique situation. If you already have a good look, but lack conversational skills, work on your verbal game. If you are a good speaker but need to improve your look, work on your diet, fitness routine, wardrobe, haircut, and body language.

[soup]

Yes, I agree that looking good is important. You have to look your best for game.

But, is the whole bulking up thing really necessary? Does it make a huge difference? If so, why?

[Spike]

(04-11-2012 11:50 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Quote:

Is all this emphasis on being muscular misplaced? From everything I've read, including all the old PUA stuff, Roissy, etc. looks are only 1/5 of what's important for female attraction

I think looks are alot more important then this. Only 1/5 ??? That can't be right! Girls are very much into looks. The more good looking you are the more girls you attract. Girls love aesthetics.

Working out accomplishes a couple things; it makes you more physically attractive, it builds confidence, and it releases testosterone.

I think its more like 3/5's or even 3.5/5's.

Looking good is at least half the battle.

Of course, it all depends on your unique situation. If you already have a good look, but lack conversational skills, work on your verbal game. If you are a good speaker but need to improve your look, work on your diet, fitness routine, wardrobe, haircut, and body language.

I agree to the 3/5 but that's mostly for club game where appearance means a lot. I think its only a 3/5 if you're dressed well, a guy with a highly attractive body but dressed in rags doesn't get as much attention.

[Skyhigh]

For guys who say looks don't matter, I bet they are decent looking or have higher status. Try being a mediocre looking guy like a 3-4 and open good looking girls. It's close to impossible if you have no status or money. What looks buys you is an opening. A girl will be receptive to your game. For mediocre guys, girls instantly reject them instantly or makes you jump through more hoops. Whenever I do experiments with aesthetic guys on POF, I'm always amazed how much easier it is even if you dumb down the aesthetic guy.

[Giovonny]

(04-11-2012 11:56 AM)soup Wrote:  

Yes, I agree that looking good is important. You have to look your best for game.

But, is the whole bulking up thing really necessary? Does it make a huge difference? If so, why?

Well, I don't think its really necessary to be a huge bodybuilder. But, it does help to have an athletic, muscular body. Bigger is better, but only up to a certain point. (like you are suggesting)

Some guys just like to get huge and I'm sure some girls have a fetish for huge guys. So, for them, it probably does make a difference in their confidence. But, for most of us athletic and fit is good enough.

As always, the real make or break factor will be your verbal skills and closing ability.

[Giovonny]

(04-11-2012 12:03 PM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

I agree to the 3/5 but that's mostly for club game where appearance means a lot. I think its only a 3/5 if you're dressed well, a guy with a highly attractive body but dressed in rags doesn't get as much attention.

This is why clothes are so important. No one knows your body type if you don't wear clothes that highlight your body and fit you properly.

If you have a bad body, you can cover it up with the right clothes.

Your wardrobe is almost like an extension of your body!

[soup]

(04-11-2012 12:34 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(04-11-2012 12:03 PM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

I agree to the 3/5 but that's mostly for club game where appearance means a lot. I think its only a 3/5 if you're dressed well, a guy with a highly attractive body but dressed in rags doesn't get as much attention.

This is why clothes are so important. No one knows your body type if you don't wear clothes that highlight your body and fit you properly.

If you have a bad body, you can cover it up with the right clothes.

Your wardrobe is almost like an extension of your body!

I'm wondering if this is why I tend to have trouble in the summer.

I'm not out of shape, but I'm not super cut or toned. I've got a somewhat narrow frame, no broad shoulders, skinny wrists etc. I'm thin, but not hipster dweeby skinny (some people think I'm threatening). I've also got a receding hairline. In the winter, I can wear my hat which gets me in through the girls' initial line of defense, but I wonder not being able to hide the hair works against me in the summer.

In general, I believe that women get the ego boost in the summer because they can show off their goods, while most guys don't have as many fashion options as they do in the winter.

[Giovonny]

(04-11-2012 01:01 PM)soup Wrote:  

I'm wondering if this is why I tend to have trouble in the summer.

It could be a factor. Try wearing some warm weather hats this summer and see if that makes a difference.

I went through a phase were I though I looked alot better in hats. Sometimes the little things can make all the difference.

[HiFlo]

My opinion is that as long as you are fit, who the fuck cares which body type 'all' women prefer?

You should be exercising weightlifting to build the body type that YOU want, not some generalized definition what women want.

Do you want to be the Mr Olympia? Fine, then start weightlifting 3-4 hours a day and eating big.

Do you want to be lean and ripped like Fight Club-type? Fine, then do the appropriate workout program, and eat carb-restricted & clean.

Yes, get fit because it will make you more attractive to women (and in business in general, especially sales). Get fit because it will extender your lifespan, make you feel better psychologically, and build confidence.

But build whatever body type you want. Don't build a certain body type because 55% of pussy supposedly likes big forearms over medium sized forearms.

Furthermore, one can't generalize what body type is most attractive to women. Just as some men prefer butts over boobs, or a girl at 16%bf over a girl at 8%bf, the same thing is true for women. What matters is that you are fit. Your ultimate training goals are entirely up to you, and if you're doing it for someone else rather than yourself, you're going to be disappointed because you're doing it for all the wrong reasons.

[Excelsior]

(04-11-2012 12:13 AM)_DC_ Wrote:  

Athlone, thanks for your input. How do you reconcile then your opinion with the results of the survey (first post)?

Brad Pitt weighs about 100 lbs less than the people above. I believe he was about 155 lbs in Fight Club and 6'. The same is true for soccer players.

I don't buy the theory that the girls (some 500) on an anonymous internet survey didn't know what they desired or were intimidated by what the truly wanted, which has been argued above. I think this is most evident in the extremely low votes for both the pudgy guys as well as the super skinny guys, which under this argument would get a decent amount of votes. Furthermore, the muscle people e.g. Ryan Reynolds got a sizable vote, although a minority over the less muscular guy (i believe the trainer from Biggest Loser).

I don't see how any of that would preclude them from subsconsciously slecting against what they perceive to be most attractive.
It would not be that difficult for a woman to rationalize herself into shunning the very appealing but somewhat intimidating option for the less intimidating yet still very appealing option. Both are attractive, so the distinction isn't that hard to make and she can rationalize her way between the two.

It would be a bigger stretch for the woman to shun the very appealing option for an undoubtedly less appealing one (ex: pudgy guy, stick figure guy, etc).

Quote:

The only rebuttal to the survey that could logically hold some water IMO is that the girls who picked the more muscular guys were more attractive themselves.

Correct.

Do not think that there are not a lot of cute girls who did not select that option, however. I see such women all the time-eyefuck the shit out of buffer dudes and occasionally hook up with them, but the men they date are always leaner. Again, that goes back to the cad vs. dad issue I outlined above.

[Excelsior]

(04-11-2012 02:32 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

Going to disagree with Athlone here somewhat. While I could see a girl being intimidated into not approaching you, I don't see her refusing you once you approach, with the appropriate game. Go light on the cockiness.

Firstly, while the girl may not flat out reject you, she will make your approach much more challenging. She'll put her guard up, and make an attempt not to appear too receptive or open to you, with the goal being not to pump up what she perceives is an already inflated ego or become another of what she assumes is potentially a long list of conquests.

Secondly, there are girls who will flat out shy away quickly. They'll speak less and show less interest simply because they are frightened. Some will flat out pull away after a while, leaving you wondering if you did something wrong. You'll find out later that the girl actually liked you, but got a little frightened. The more insecure the girl, the more likely this is-she will simply not know what to do with you.

This can make your margin for error on a pickup much smaller.

As I said in that post, it is crucial for one with this type of body to work rapport/comfort building into his game.

Keep in mind that I am black and significantly larger than average, so your mileage may vary.

Quote:

Girls are so delusional and noncomittal these days that they don't even think in those terms of "this guy won't commit so I shouldn't talk to him."

You'd be surprised.

Quote:

However, if you're an outsider, and much bigger than they're used to, I could see it starting to seem like a disadvantage, and being black won't help either.

Correct.

Quote:

As for the lax brahs, their status from playing lax is going to be far far more important than any body they could attain. If I were a betting man, I'd take the top dude on the lacrosse team over the dude with the best physique, for who could slay more hot pussy on a college campus.

Women romanticize the status, but there is also an image that goes with it, the importance of which should not be underestimated.

The fact that most lacrosse players end up with a certain "look" and physique anyway just by virtue of being who they are is just going to make this more obvious. Girls see the status of the activity, observe the look/body type most often associated with it (which already hits hardwired female attraction cues anyway-lean, fit, decently muscular, etc), and in turn begin to value those looks/styles even more highly.

There's no point in even making the distinction here.