Quote: (12-30-2017 03:10 PM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  

Twat.

Apparently there's a socio-sexual type severely lacking a sense of humour.

Quote: (12-30-2017 03:10 PM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  

Quote: (12-30-2017 02:39 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

Take the following story

I'm enjoying this, but, ahem, a Dungeons and Dragons greentext story used to explain a socio-sexual type repulsive to women...



I hate to say it: this thread seems like it might be Gamma!

I really don't think think you should be talking.

Twat.

7 day ban

I’m no sigma (guys, quit getting temp-banned! But I guess this is be expected?... Haha), but I’d like to post an observation. Robert Cohn from the novel The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway is an old chip off the gamma block. Published in 1926, the book follows the group of the ‘lost’ generation, or those who were forgotten after the First World War, who would rather spend their time in bohemian fashion all over Europe.

His tells:
- overbrooding and controlling woman (I think she was older too)
- constantly dreamed and created a future image of his life from adventure books and the like. In the book, he was noted to be obsessed with traveling to South America and believed there he would find some sort of meaning. Though the author made it obvious he would find none
- he would constantly create this sort of ‘disgust’ discussed earlier in this thread in the groups he traveled with.
- this disgust came to boil after his affair with the book’s femme fatalle, Brett Ashley, who gave him a supposed meaningless weekend away together. After the affair, Cohn followed Brett like a puppy dog, which birthed hatred and physical disgust from Brett. Brett’s fiancé (they were a bit degenerate) called Cohn out twice in group settings, specifically mentioning how he was not wanted.
- his time with the group ends with him knocking almost every one out, and severely injuring Brett’s next love interest. He was a boxing champion, but never resorted to violence earlier, so this here does depart from the gamma I suppose.

Anyway, it was a good book, I thought. Classical Hemingway prose, yet some of he characters were a bit much sometimes. I would recommend it.

Fuck me. What a thread. Just when you think you've seen and heard it all at RVF. Spent the last 3 hours reading it in tandem with Roosh's live broadcast (albeit very quiet in the background).

Where to start?

Demons, Lone Wolves, Narcissists, Sigmas, Betas, Alphas, Omegas, Gammas...

Just about every post in this thread is worthy enough for me to write a whole essay on (don't worry, I don't hate you that much). I fucking love you guys.

I say that as a Beta, sometimes situational Alpha, Gamma of yore, aspiring Sigma.

OP, I think this thread has definitely gone in the direction you were hoping for.

But don't listen to me. I got fuck all to offer really. I don't know what or who I am.

You decide, shitlords.

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.


I may be on shaky ground here. So many angles, so many reports, so many retorts. Hey, I'm INFJ, so don't call me a faggot fellow RVF'er. Adolf Hitler was an INFJ too, if you believe all that stuff. I'm 50/50.

This thread has literally blown my mind. And that's at a time when my mind is already in fragments. The irony of it all coming full circle too is not beyond me. I'm not going to do this thread justice, but I'll give it a go. Back to the shaky ground...

AB, I'm sorry to hear about your mum. I'm envious in a way that you got to spend that time with her. I won't say you were 'lucky' or some other dumb shit like that, but I think you know what I'm striving at.

Your account of Christmas day was a hoot. And again, I won't say I am envious of you, because I got to spend the last Christmas day with my brother. He's a lone wolf.

We didn't speak. Maybe 5 words, I forget now. Sometimes, an animal just wants to take itself off to a quiet place to die. On his deathbed, he didn't want assholes like me to trouble him. There's a Robert Heinlein quite about every animal meeting its end, and how some choose to do that in solitude.

That's it. Don't feel bad for me bro' it's not an appeal to pity. But you know that.

As for the grand adventures of the gamma step-dad, well, what can anyone say. You nailed it. Now it's just about picking up the pieces.

My gamma step-dad's little outburst (that I documented in the gamma thread) has had a massive impact on our family. Torn it apart, in fact. It was ok for my dying brother to attack him with a knife, but when it came to me not feeling comfortable anymore to accept a lift off him, well that was just not 'all pulling together in a difficult time'. My bro is dying, but he is the most narcissistic, golden-child cunt you could ever wish for. I take your gamma step-dad and raise you my beloved narc brother.

I also lost my mother last year as well. It's taken me half a century to figure it all out. Hell of a time to finally get the old penny dropping and the old noggin' jogging, but there ya go - what ever activates your almonds, I guess.

The father stuff? That too. Fuck me, what a bunch of absolute cunts my family are. No wonder I'm a fucking train-wreck. Having said that, on the way back from the shops today on my daily beer-run, I gave a wry smile and had a quick word with myself: How the fuck did you turn out to be so good natured, so magnanimous in your outlook, so giving, so fucking loving, so fucking understanding of other people's problems, to be able to eat so much shit, just so others can get by? I'm not a martyr, fuck people in general, but friends, family? I'm a fucking saint. Please excuse my blasphemy, it isn't meant as such.

There is a direct correlation between what you are calling 'gamma' and what is recognised as being malignant narcissism. Religious people talk of demons and the Jezebel spirit, and I'm ok with that too. It all helps to describe, to identify, to eyeball those that would hurt us.

Only love can break your heart.

No one can break or hurt you like a family member. A father can fuck you up, but a mother can destroy you. A truly broken brother can indeed break your heart. I am truly heart-broken.

Again, this is not an appeal to pity. I hope you can see that.

My gamma step-father is now on his last legs. He won't last much longer. My brother will probably die in the next weeks/months, then he will follow. My mother won't be long after that. Especially as she will have no one to look after her when her narc son and husband die. She doesn't realise this yet. She will only find out when they are gone. I want it that way. It keeps her strong to look after my brother, and it will add to the shock when she realises a lifetime of destroying her children's lives will have some payback.

Me? I'm fucked.

I'm going to go out in a blaze of glory. More likely a slow-candle burn beer death. No self-pity though. Fuck that. I'll just reach a point where I won't be able to function anymore, then it will be time. I don't care.

It was interesting what you said about your father as well AB. Lots of parallels here. Mine was/is Alpha as fuck as well. But few men liked him. Most just feared him. With the rest just not caring or having open contempt. I always enjoyed seeing him come in to contact with other true hard/dangerous bastards, and how he would acquiesce to them, just like two tom-cats of the same size thinking the better of it and living to fight another day.

I'm no Alpha. Happy to be a Beta. Maybe I'm a Sigma? Not for me to say. Don't know myself well enough. Not well developed enough to know. Let the others decide. I don't mind stealing the drinks of the local Hell's Angels though. I just make sure they are too pissed enough to realise before I do it. Is that 'beta' of me?

Sounds like you had a cracking Christmas AB. You got some real characters in your life, among your friends, among your family. And most important of all, you seem to have your health, you seem to have a good grip of your mind and an extended theory of mind. I'd say you are winning.

You can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family. Which is probably why we are so choosy when it comes to picking our friends sometimes. That's ok.

Think of this as a public apology to my earlier outburst in the year when I got temp-banned. As a Sigma, I'm sure you don't give a fuck, really. But as a Sigma, I'm sure the thought is at least appreciated.

"I'm sorry for being a dumb cunt".

There, said it.

I wanted to reply to what a lot of other people wrote in this thread as well, but I suppose I singled you out AB, not least because of your frankness and candidness of talking about your family, past and present.

Whatever life throws at you, I pray it won't be of the 'too much to deal with' variety. And that goes for the rest of you shit-lords too.

Happy New Year, Mother-Fuckers!


All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,


Betas to the left of me, Alphas to the right...
And here I am, stuck in the middle with you...

Quote: (12-30-2017 12:29 PM)Aurini Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

1. Experience trumps wits. Some idiot who’s simply spent more time playing the game will beat you when you’re new, no matter how fast and clever you think you are. You might think you’re smart, but it’s not as much an advantage as you think if you haven’t put in the time and effort.

Coasting on raw ability alone fails miserably in a contest that relies on learned skills. An ordinary guy who knows an optimal build order to execute a sound strategy will destroy a genius who’s trying to figure everything out for the first time.

This is why there’s plenty of average joes doing well in life while everyone knows that “smart” guy who’s losing at life.

Sure, I'm smarter than everyone - but if they're following a decent Plan B with consistency, while I'm constantly picking up new games and never mastering them, who's going to go further in life?

I've specifically quoted this statement because I feel it's too important to be lost in a post with many good points. My gut tells me that while this statement may only be relevant to a small section of society, it's likely relevant to a large section of this forum.

While I don't really subscribe to any of the labels [And probably think I'm a beta more than anything else] - I do seem to have a whole bunch in common with people in this thread. The bolded quote specifically is all too real. I've worked in so many different jobs I've lost count. On an oil rig, in a call centre, as a gym salesman and what has become abundantly clear is that intelligence has very little bearing on [relative] success.

Case in point - Years ago I worked in a HR Department with a young woman, lets call her Janine. Now Janine left school at 16, got a job in said department at a time where new systems were being used to file HR queries. By the time I worked there, Janine was the HR Senior manager earning $500,000 per year. Her skill set was entirely predicated on her knowledge of the system being used, which was developed simply due to longevity in the company. Any other field of knowledge and Janine wouldn't know an apple from an orange, but she knew this system.

The funny thing is [And I guess more or less the point of the previous ramblings], even though such examples make you think: "Well if Janine can earn 500k, so can I", I think for many people on this forum, the higher intelligence is irrelevant because the part of your brain which despises structure, order, process for the sake of process eventually thinks 'fuck this'. I'm out - And in my case, you reach age 30 and you've got hundreds of useless skills, none of which you've done long enough to earn anything from.

Alright, I guess I'll give it a go.

I don't recall who mentioned it in the thread, however anecdotally I fully endorse Gammas and Sigmas being on the opposite sides of the same spectrum.

Memory lane: When I was younger, overweight(by 100lbs), and a hopeless romantic, I was a spot on gamma. I would, for lack of a better word, terrorize females who were, in my head "nice enough to talk to me" to the point where they became so fed up with me that I wouldn't hear from them at all. This happened many a times, and most exclusively over text, because I lacked the confidence to walk up to women in grade school(how stupid I feel in retrospect, you barely comprehend!). I would keep telling myself after being friendzoned that everything will be better with "just one more long winded, feminine, emotional text that explained how I really felt," and we all know where that led to. (Edit: Realizing a lot of this may be a mix of beta and gamma, shit, there goes that correlation.)

Then came the time when I found RVF and started to lose weight, along with gaining confidence. I think that the dominant mother-gamma son correlation is decently solid. My mother is mentally ill(while decently intelligent and extremely manipulative) and I would classify her as relatively dominant, and my father is a beta(though I'm working on him). Thankfully, Uncle RVF came into my life and helped turn it around. I think that's where the dominant mother theory will start to lose power - with the accessibility of the internet and more mainstream ideals of the red pill coming out through online mediums like YouTube, ROK, and RVF it seems as though all of us on the forums will become a big hivemind of surrogate fathers/mentors for young dudes to look up to for game and life advice, which is exactly what yours truly has been and is continuing to do, along with hopefully making some good contributions myself.

Fast forward a couple years to after shedding 80lbs, and having completely changed my attitude, both personally and my outlook on socializing with other.

AB's depiction of Bill and the Grandma is how a lot of my conversations go with women nowadays. I treat the conversation as if I am just trolling, testing my limits per say. Every opportunity to tease, prodd, or jest, is always taken.

So I would argue while I still have gamma(edit:gamma/beta) tendencies, I believe that a majority of my personality type is Sigma, with gamma(edit:gamma/beta) tendencies becoming less and less.

I had apprehensions about writing this post due to my disdain for over analyzing myself with labels. It's one of those things that is fun to do, makes you feel like you have kindred spirits out there with you, but is also dangerous in that too much over analyzing can create a mindset that will go like this: Fancy being a Sigma After a bunch of reading and personality type questions, during a random activity, your subconscious will throw question at you like: "as a sigma, should I be doing... " Same thing with alphas, it's a self repeating cycle of "read, over analyze, read, over analyze." But regardless, here I am balls deep into personal analysis'. That's life, let's crack on.

I test on the Myers Briggs test as INTJ, no surprise here as it seems like there is a predisposition for RVF members to register as this personality type. I figured I'd just throw this in for context.

I've got a couple of gammas in my family that I've written of before in the gamma mega thread. If I can think of any particular instances then I'll make sure to drop a post. I keep my distance from the asshole as much as possible, especially since he is with my mother(my father and her divorced when I was young), who I also stay far away from.

He is one of those people who thinks that being loud and brash is the way to show that you're an alpha. Especially in the presence of my brother(who I would classify as alpha with certain sigma traits) and myself(sigma). He tries to AMOG us when we're not doing anything, besides for sitting there glancing at our watches and waiting to leave. It's laughable now because I am at the age where I can tell him to fuck off and not bat an eye. Though growing up it was a angering experience, I've never met a grown man who would bicker like a 12 year old girl until this motherfucker showed up. Literal screaming matches between my brother(who I believe was 14 at the time) and him about who gets the front seat in a car and what's "fair". Seriously, I'm not joking.

We(bro and I) no longer engage in arguments or take bait from him. He knows that were only there for our mothers sake(and that is already thin ice). Will report back with more stories if I have 'em.

Great thread and great responses. Looking forward to more gents!

Quote: (01-01-2018 10:53 PM)Rush87 Wrote:  

Quote: (12-30-2017 12:29 PM)Aurini Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

1. Experience trumps wits. Some idiot who’s simply spent more time playing the game will beat you when you’re new, no matter how fast and clever you think you are. You might think you’re smart, but it’s not as much an advantage as you think if you haven’t put in the time and effort.

Coasting on raw ability alone fails miserably in a contest that relies on learned skills. An ordinary guy who knows an optimal build order to execute a sound strategy will destroy a genius who’s trying to figure everything out for the first time.

This is why there’s plenty of average joes doing well in life while everyone knows that “smart” guy who’s losing at life.

Sure, I'm smarter than everyone - but if they're following a decent Plan B with consistency, while I'm constantly picking up new games and never mastering them, who's going to go further in life?

I've specifically quoted this statement because I feel it's too important to be lost in a post with many good points. My gut tells me that while this statement may only be relevant to a small section of society, it's likely relevant to a large section of this forum.

While I don't really subscribe to any of the labels [And probably think I'm a beta more than anything else] - I do seem to have a whole bunch in common with people in this thread. The bolded quote specifically is all too real. I've worked in so many different jobs I've lost count. On an oil rig, in a call centre, as a gym salesman and what has become abundantly clear is that intelligence has very little bearing on [relative] success.

Case in point - Years ago I worked in a HR Department with a young woman, lets call her Janine. Now Janine left school at 16, got a job in said department at a time where new systems were being used to file HR queries. By the time I worked there, Janine was the HR Senior manager earning $500,000 per year. Her skill set was entirely predicated on her knowledge of the system being used, which was developed simply due to longevity in the company. Any other field of knowledge and Janine wouldn't know an apple from an orange, but she knew this system.

The funny thing is [And I guess more or less the point of the previous ramblings], even though such examples make you think: "Well if Janine can earn 500k, so can I", I think for many people on this forum, the higher intelligence is irrelevant because the part of your brain which despises structure, order, process for the sake of process eventually thinks 'fuck this'. I'm out - And in my case, you reach age 30 and you've got hundreds of useless skills, none of which you've done long enough to earn anything from.

The fox and the hedgehog.

"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." - Isaiah Berlin

Janine is a hedgehog. She follows Cal Newport's advice of becoming so good they can't ignore you (the name of his best-selling book).

You're probably a fox, as I imagine many Sigmas and guys on this forum are. A more suitable approach for you would be talent stack as per Scott Adams' recommendations.

One mental model I use is that of game theory and trade-offs. Janine might make 500K as a senior HR person, but what's the trade-off? She has no other skills, meaning if the system she's familiar with gets chucked out or she gets fired, she might end up having a hell of a time in life.

That's the trade-off you make being a hedgehog: if what you hedge on suddenly becomes worthless, you might end up screwed. I find it to be a more risky approach to specialize in one thing in life.

Foxes - in general because of the multitude of skills we're good at, but not amazingly great at, we often underperform career-wise. That said, we're probably more capable of dealing with unexpected events or new situations. We're more likely to be anti-fragile as Nassim Nicholas Taleb would say. I don't think it's a coincidence that Taleb and Adams, both of the INTJ/Sigma variety, swing towards being a fox. Both also didn't really hit their stride until they were in their 40s.

In a healthy society, being a hedgehog probably works better because of the safety and stability provided by that society. In contrast, when chaos reigns being a fox - for example, knowing how to hunt, grow food, understanding people, ability to fix machines, language skills - would probably be much more favorable. If shit hits the fan, I doubt Janine's HR skills will mean much.

And we're definitely moving towards a more chaotic world. White-collar work is slowly getting gutted from the bottom, with Artificial Intelligence taking work slowly but surely. Perhaps a very bold prediction, and definitely one that's heavily biased as it would be more favorable towards myself, but I feel we are rapidly moving towards a reality where being a fox is a more winning strategy long-term.

Possibly another trade-off to look at: the present condition of the healthcare industry and people's own health. There's no denying that on average people are becoming sicker due to bad diet, lack of exercise, poor sleep and high levels of stress. I see the hedgehogs in my own life, who are spending an admittedly admirable amount of time becoming an expert in their fields. I also see those same friends' health deteriorating, and while they're still in their late 20s/early 30s, it will eventually come and bite them in their ass. Meanwhile, as a fox, I'm learning tidbits about proper nutrition and lifting here and there, and my health overall is significantly better than my friends because of it.

Whenever you see someone else crushing it hard in one aspect of life, ask yourself what they might've had to give up to accomplish that. Conversely, ask yourself what you've gained by not overspecializing in one thing. Because everything in life has a trade-off, always.

Quote: (01-02-2018 01:07 AM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

The fox and the hedgehog.

"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." - Isaiah Berlin

This thread should come with a warning about side effects like medication does.

Thinking too much about gammas is demon bait and can get you banned.

Thinking too much about foxes and hedgehogs can ruin a good shag.

Quote: (01-01-2018 10:59 PM)Ivanis Wrote:  

I test on the Myers Briggs test as INTJ, no surprise here as it seems like there is a predisposition for RVF members to register as this personality type. I figured I'd just throw this in for context.

There are only masterminds on RVF.

From that wikipedia page...

Quote:Quote:

They are often acutely aware of their own knowledge and abilities—as well as their limitations and what they don't know (a quality that tends to distinguish them from INTPs).

Sounds about right

https://www.16personalities.com/intj-rel...ips-dating

Quote:16 Personalities Wrote:

Sentiment, tradition, and emotion are (INTJ)s' Achilles Heel. Social standards like chivalry are viewed by INTJs as silly, even demeaning. The problem is, these standards have developed as a means of smoothing introductions and developing rapport, of managing expectations, the basis of personal relationships. INTJs’ propensity for frank honesty in word and action tends to violate this social contract, making dating especially difficult for them.

...This antipathy to rules and tendency to over-analyze and be judgmental, even arrogant, all adds up to a personality type that is often clueless in dating.

INTJs BTFO!

Quote: (01-02-2018 04:55 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

https://www.16personalities.com/intj-rel...ips-dating

Quote:16 Personalities Wrote:

Sentiment, tradition, and emotion are (INTJ)s' Achilles Heel. Social standards like chivalry are viewed by INTJs as silly, even demeaning. The problem is, these standards have developed as a means of smoothing introductions and developing rapport, of managing expectations, the basis of personal relationships. INTJs’ propensity for frank honesty in word and action tends to violate this social contract, making dating especially difficult for them.

...This antipathy to rules and tendency to over-analyze and be judgmental, even arrogant, all adds up to a personality type that is often clueless in dating.

INTJs BTFO!

& here I am dismissing weddings as mere juvenile fantasy / princess days.

Okay, for those people who don't get the idea....

Check out the movie "Heat" w/ Robert De Niro & Al Pacino. Robert De Niro is completely a sigma. He doesn't have a close friends, no family, but woman just come to him sometimes...

Also check out Bradly Cooper in the movie "Limitless"...another sigma male w/ a hot chick, but no close friends or family really.

Sometimes when you see a character in a movie or in a book, it's easier to internalize what kinda of person they are.
They are rare in real life, INTJ is pretty rare and that's probably the closet personality type for a sigma male imo.

Quote: (01-03-2018 12:05 AM)bgbusiness Wrote:  

Okay, for those people who don't get the idea....

Check out the movie "Heat" w/ Robert De Niro & Al Pacino. Robert De Niro is completely a sigma.

Great movie.

I'm thinking both De Niro and Pacino are alpha's in their own spaces. They both lead men, they call the shots and they don't take shit.

The movie seems like two alpha's that don't really want to cross paths but ultimately must.

Sigma's in that movie...maybe Val Kilmer?

Quote: (01-03-2018 12:39 AM)Cane Toad Wrote:  

Quote: (01-03-2018 12:05 AM)bgbusiness Wrote:  

Okay, for those people who don't get the idea....

Check out the movie "Heat" w/ Robert De Niro & Al Pacino. Robert De Niro is completely a sigma.

Great movie.

I'm thinking both De Niro and Pacino are alpha's in their own spaces. They both lead men, they call the shots and they don't take shit.

The movie seems like two alpha's that don't really want to cross paths but ultimately must.

Sigma's in that movie...maybe Val Kilmer?

Sure. I would say he is also a sigma.

TBH, a lot of heist movies or bank robbery movies...will contain a lot of sigma male alike characters.

The criminals are mostly going to be sigma males imo. They grown up in HARSH neighborhood, but somehow made it and they have a lot of alpha traits, but they are calm, collected and stay quiet because of their identity...

It's like the environment that they grow up in shaped them that way.

Quote: (01-03-2018 12:47 AM)bgbusiness Wrote:  

It's like the environment that they grow up in shaped them that way.

That's the big question. were they (we) shaped that way or were they (we) always there...like Colonel Trautman says in Rambo 3:

Let me tell you a story, John. There was a sculptor. He found this stone, a special stone. He dragged it home and he worked on it for months until he finally finished it. When he was ready he showed it to his friends. They said he had created a great masterpiece, but the sculptor said he hadn't created anything. The statue was always there, he just chipped away the rough edges. You're always going to be tearing away at yourself until you come to terms with who you are. Until you come full circle.

I'd definitely say they are made that way, & environmental factors play a huge part (not entirely, genetics play their part to some degree also).

I've been thinking a lot recently about what factors & at what time in my life did Sigma tendencies start to manifest in my own psyche & I think I've got it nailed. I've mentioned my psychotic, sociopathic mother more than a few time round here & for me it sprang out of what I was experiencing at home leading up to & around the age of individuation. This is not to say that further trauma didn't compound the problem, but the groundwork was laid right here when I realised to myself that...

My sovereign right to my own experience, the one I had been promised with each day of personal growth, which each adventure book that I finished reading, which each song I sang along to with my mother, with each new & individuated person I formed a relationship with, my sovereign experience, my birthright to be the unique person I was born to be, that society & culture had gifted me, was a fucking lie.

I saw through the tunnel of time & realised that the Freedom that everyone & everything was telling me I had, was all fucking bunk. And rather I was going to have to jump through every stupid hoop that every moron with authority over me coerced me into. And I had to do it all with a smile on my face, nary a sideways glance or questioning look just like every other dumb cunt on the planet.

It was the lies I was told by the people who also told me they were doing it all for my own good that stamped out the Alpha in me, & replaced him with a Sigma.

Essentially, it was the all coercion propagandised as voluntarism. And the fact that no one else saw it, & when I pointed it out I was either beaten, drugged or excluded from polite society.

Quote: (01-03-2018 01:54 AM)Conscious Pirate Wrote:  

I'd definitely say they are made that way, & environmental factors play a huge part (not entirely, genetics play their part to some degree also).

I'm the other way...they are born that way. And when I say "they" I mean me. But my experience tells me that a man is either born that way or not.

That said, early life experience is so important.

Pirate...I get what you said about toxic mother relationships.

My childhood experience was not good...would be called child abuse by today's standards. I have recently cut all contact with my mother.

My grandmother once asked me how I survived...thanks gran, obviously with no help from you.

But it got me thinking...I got through it because I was a tough little cunt. I knew nothing else. It was in me to survive.

And survive I did.

delete

I was going to point out that I'm ENTP, but to be fair I'm borderline INTJ. I'm about 60% Extrovert/70% Perceptive. The NT part is hard; the E/I P/J fluctuate.

Quote: (12-30-2017 12:29 PM)Aurini Wrote:  

There are two defining traits of the Sigma: an utter disregard for social conventions, and a pathological need to argue.

Now, for the argumentative nature: I get profoundly irritated when people are wrong about something. That's why I started writing in the first place - idiotic platitudes being decreed as if they were informed wisdom. Now, that said - here's an important observation on strategy:

Quote:Quote:

1. Experience trumps wits. Some idiot who’s simply spent more time playing the game will beat you when you’re new, no matter how fast and clever you think you are. You might think you’re smart, but it’s not as much an advantage as you think if you haven’t put in the time and effort.

Coasting on raw ability alone fails miserably in a contest that relies on learned skills. An ordinary guy who knows an optimal build order to execute a sound strategy will destroy a genius who’s trying to figure everything out for the first time.

This is why there’s plenty of average joes doing well in life while everyone knows that “smart” guy who’s losing at life.

Sure, I'm smarter than everyone - but if they're following a decent Plan B with consistency, while I'm constantly picking up new games and never mastering them, who's going to go further in life?

Furthermore, I'm pretty difficult to get along with. I have absolutely zero tolerance for bullshit, and I'll call people out on it all the time. I can be downright insulting with this - mind you, if you can listen to my advice, it's probably the most useful critique you'll have all year - but nobody likes being criticized.

Wanted to comment on this before but didn't do so because I thought it would be too off-topic. Since it looks like other have taken interest in the topic and have made their own contributions, I figure I would do so too.

A topic that I've always been interested in and have mulled over continuously for years is how some of the people I've met and have considered to be the most intelligent people I know aren't necessarily living the most successful lives and are instead just either just managing to do just enough to get along or in some cases, outright failures. In contrast, the most successful people I know seem to possess pretty commonplace minds but are hitting a lot more of the goalposts that are indicators for what would be typically be considered a conventionally successful life. What bugged me and served as the impetus for me to think about and dwell upon this matter is how we're always told that intelligence is essential to succeeding in life but it's not something that I've seen play out consistently in my own observations.

After a lot of thinking and brooding on this, it dawned on me that I had failed to account for different types of intelligence. There's a lot to say about this and I plan to start a different thread on this in the future to keep this thread from going too off the rails, but for now I want to keep this focused on the type of intelligence that betas have and the type that sigmas have and how this is responsible for what Aurini and other posters on this thread have observed.

The type of intelligence that allows for a person to achieve a moderately successful life (white collar job with a salary that's at least above average in a field that is filled with people that would be considered 'educated' such as government, law, medicine, science but without being one of the true genius or vanguards in the field) would be the sort that is sober, consistent, and grounded. This type of person would be good at interpreting and following rules and consistent at keeping to them without too much deviation. He (she might be a better pronoun to use since in these times, it seems like women tend to possess these traits more) would be a creature of habit and know how to put together and keep to a schedule that allows for him to stay on track with his short term goals. Such a person succeeds because he hears loud and clear what society says must be done in order for success to be done and he answers this call gladly.

In contrast, the sigma typically does not follow these rules and in some cases, actively works at flouting them. Sigmas have trouble staying focused and committed to a task if it's something that seems like busy work which also handicaps their ability to succeed in environments where a steady, regular, and calm matter of working is more likely to lead to success; think of the sort of environments I described in the previous paragraph such as a corporate or government office. This nature means that he can be wildly successful or an utter failure. The betas described in the previous paragraph can be compared to bonds that yield a steady return year after year with little chance of failure but also little chance of making a fortune while the sigma is like a hedge fund that can make you wildly rich but could also completely ruin you financially.

Cernovich, who I would consider a guy with many sigma traits has written on his website that he could never work for a corporation and "I am either highly motivated or totally lazy... I am totally ruled by my passions". Nassim Taleb is another example. He LOVES to argue and shut down people via every medium whether it be his books, Twitter, or his online essays and he absolutely delights in poking at people who consistently have their noses up in the air and are heavily concerned in maintaining their social standing, especially if it's as an intellectual. He worked as a Wall Street trader before retiring to write full-time and I have no doubt his sigma personality traits are why he was successful in the high-risk, high-energy work environment he devoted his young adult life to.

Both these guys could have also ended up failures; Cernovich has spoken about his rough upbringing, false rape accusations, and was previously just a guy making a living selling e-books before he hit upon Gamergate and rode the wave to the status he is right now. Taleb could have easily been one of the guys that lost everything in the big crash of the 80s but his risk taking nature meant that he actually profited wildly from it, two examples of how sigmas love to play for high stakes.

On this forum, there's a a tendency for guys to want to romanticize sigmas and avoid identifying as a beta since a lot of men would rather identify with the outlaw biker than as an accountant that works 9 to 5. But any society that is mostly made up of sigmas simply wouldn't be stable. Just as men are supposed to be nature's laboratory, the active force where risks are taken and new better ideas are introduced while bad ones are weeded out, mostly at the expense of the men who have taken the risk of producing this bad idea; women are supposed to be the steady, stabilizing and risk-adverse force that makes sure society doesn't spiral out of control into chaos. There's a need for both in any sort of successful society.

Quote: (01-04-2018 02:19 AM)Wutang Wrote:  

On this forum, there's a a tendency for guys to want to romanticize sigmas and avoid identifying as a beta since a lot of men would rather identify with the outlaw biker than as an accountant that works 9 to 5.

Yeah I've got to say, as a Sigma, there've been many times where my sigma tendencies hurt me. If I was a beta especially throughout school, especially cause of my academic strengths, I would've done really well. Everyone who was in my position got at least 5k or so university scholarships, one guy is now in what I believe is an "up there" US college. But because of my sigma tendencies and inability to conform, I ended up as a relative mess in my life.

That being said, the Sigma tendencies to perceive reality for what it truly is, and ability to think for yourself is just too great to give up, thinking about it. Maybe it's because I've grown too attached to this part of my personality, but I can't imagine living without sigma tendencies, despite the hassles.

Edit: Another thing to sum up came to mind- for a long time I would struggle in my life, wondering how people did so well with school, work, social circles, etc and they all made it seem effortless to some degree. And people would sometimes compliment me on the things I do well, such as some sport, as well as dieting, but also some intellectual subjects, that I found came relatively naturally to me and I felt were "easy". Sometimes they would even gush to some extent. At the time I would think to myself, why would you compliment me for something so easy but I struggled to find work or do well in school and had no friends.

Reading this thread made me consciously realise what I'd subconsciously thought for a long time and finally unlocked a piece of the puzzle- Most people like being told what to do and having the "structure" of societal expectations to some degree or another. Even the rebels or counterculture people often are following a different group to the mainstream. While me, as a sigma, felt miserable and resentful in that same situation. I had projected that everyone else felt the same way which made me feel even more of a failure.

Sigma here...although sigma enough to know I have moments I fall into beta.

- usually not the "agreeable" type while not trying to be controversial
- ability to easily invoke anger in others (Casanova prided himself on this)
- zero desire to be a "leader of men" in contrast to classic alphas who are somewhat defined by this ability
- typically part of a "niche", could be fashion, could be the afterhours party connection, the cool artistic guy who doesn't really care about sports (but still knows enough about them), etc
- open-minded, while not being part of a liberal political affiliation, maybe "free-spirited" would be a better way to put this
- not concerned with toughness, but not one to back down either
- as explained previously, a rebel, but not in the classic sense of trying to be rebellious
- maybe a slight eccentricity, as sigmas are not easily categorized

Sigmas are sort of like vampires in a world of zombies, where the alphas lead the zombies.

Quote: (01-03-2018 01:54 AM)Conscious Pirate Wrote:  

I'd definitely say they are made that way, & environmental factors play a huge part (not entirely, genetics play their part to some degree also).

I've been thinking a lot recently about what factors & at what time in my life did Sigma tendencies start to manifest in my own psyche & I think I've got it nailed. I've mentioned my psychotic, sociopathic mother more than a few time round here & for me it sprang out of what I was experiencing at home leading up to & around the age of individuation. This is not to say that further trauma didn't compound the problem, but the groundwork was laid right here when I realised to myself that...

My sovereign right to my own experience, the one I had been promised with each day of personal growth, which each adventure book that I finished reading, which each song I sang along to with my mother, with each new & individuated person I formed a relationship with, my sovereign experience, my birthright to be the unique person I was born to be, that society & culture had gifted me, was a fucking lie.

I saw through the tunnel of time & realised that the Freedom that everyone & everything was telling me I had, was all fucking bunk. And rather I was going to have to jump through every stupid hoop that every moron with authority over me coerced me into. And I had to do it all with a smile on my face, nary a sideways glance or questioning look just like every other dumb cunt on the planet.

It was the lies I was told by the people who also told me they were doing it all for my own good that stamped out the Alpha in me, & replaced him with a Sigma.

Essentially, it was the all coercion propagandised as voluntarism. And the fact that no one else saw it, & when I pointed it out I was either beaten, drugged or excluded from polite society.

What you are articulating here is very erudite.

But you are not alone, I mean, in the articulation.

I refer you one more time to the work of http://www.drcachildress.org/

If you hadn't already worked this shit our yourself, then he would have helped you down the road. Chances are, he can help you further down the road of recovery too, seeing as you have such great insight in to your predicament.

You can't help anyone that doesn't want to be helped.

But you might be able to point some people in the right direction, if they are a bit curious.

There is so much great work done on that page I linked to CP. So much that will resonate very deeply with you, I urge you to take time out of your daily shit-lord schedule and just have a gander about. It's a lot of work. A lot! And it leads on to further academic stuff too.

Not posting this to be clever. Just pertinent. The childhood stuff is very very apropos. If you didn't show such 'insight' I wouldn't bother.