There is some drama within the London daygame crew. Krauser claims that he gave Tom Torrero substantial aid on a book but then Tom didn't give Krauser proper credit and started acting shady.

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So it’s for this reason that I am announcing I am no longer associated with Tom Torero. It’s not the only reason, but it’s the final straw. We will not collaborate again. Blog readers can feel free to comment about him here as if he’s Daniel Blake, Ed Lopez, Johnny Berba, Michael Valmont, Alex Coulson, Todd RSD or any other public-facing daygamer with whom I have no connection. That doesn’t mean I’ll accept slander or hating, BTW. Just normal comments like you do other guys.

http://krauserpua.com/2016/03/18/tom-tor...le-review/

In 2014, it was revealed that Tom hired an actress in one of his in-field videos, causing his employer, Daygame.com, to disavow him. Comment by Zelcorpion:

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Whoa - that is heavy - I actually like Tom Torrero's stuff and just listened to a Daygame.com podcast a few weeks ago.

But kudos for Andy from Daygame.com to disclose everything - I mean literally everything immediately and going public on that. RSD should go and learn from them.

Really stupid for Tom to do this, because I am sure that plenty of the credible guys there including Krauser have seen him in action or even seen girls he picked up.

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When Krauser went on a rant that earned him a 7-day suspension last year, I called him out for not disavowing Tom.

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So Krauser can't identity a fake infield from one of his best friends but he's sure half of the forum are liars? Krauser is not stupid: I'm absolutely certain he knew that Tom was faking, and if not then he's not as good with game as he thinks he is. Either Krauser was complicit in letting men be defrauded by Tom's bullshit or he can't tell a real pickup from a fake one. Even worse, the fact that they are still buddy-buddy shows that Krauser doesn't care about having a fraud deep in his inner circle.

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It's too bad he had to get burned by what many in this community saw as an internet marketer with poor ethics before finally disavowing him.

Krauser does have an account here that is in good standing, but I no longer allow promotion/marketing of London day game products on the forum.

Krauser is mad because Torero ran some good marketing game before releasing the book. There was a backlog of orders, which indicates Tom is doing well with sales. I'll have to post up the video when I'm on my laptop where he tells his subscribers to hold off on placing orders. As far as giving 'credit' when it is due, I think Tom wanted to copyright a lot of thoughts he came up with when he worked with Yosha.

Anyway, I don't remember that being Krauser's experience when he released his own book. Now he's butthurt.

Actually, I'm gonna let everyone do their own research on TT and his claims. I'm very biased here and don't wanna come across as endorsing Torero.

While London Daygame has been useful - at least to me - it also seems that it's played out, at least in terms of product sales.

That's pretty much the case with most of Game, actually. At this point, the improvements seem more incremental than revolutionary.

So what you have here is a classic case of a maturing market, where competition is intensifying.

That probably and partially explains why attacks are happening between former partners, not just in the London Daygame scene, but in the entire manosphere as well (Rollo, etc).

Is Tom Torrero the plain looking dull as dishwater one who doesn't lift and has no other redeeming features? I don't know how guys can take some one these dudes seriously. What is the rank of a guy like that? Obviously he was hiring actresses, it's like wondering if Kanye can sing or not. There was another one in that crew, the guy with half a head of long blond hair, 'Yoshi' I think, I could believe he gets laid. Another was called 'Yeb' I think, some fat loser, RioNomad summed it up with 'I'd have to see him stick it in a girl in person to believe he's ever done that'.

Krausers rant is epic by the way, everyone should read that at least once. Fuck that is some simmering hate that guy has.

This is why I ended up here, Roosh's stuff is actually interesting and believable. His shtick is traveling the world, including backwater Siberian shitholes like in an old vid of his I saw the other day, ploughing hotter more feminine chicks, all whilst trolling leftists, and getting paid handsomely to do and preach this. He also candidly talks about failures and doesn't hold multi-thousand dollar 'bootcamps' teaching magic words. I have no idea how these bunch & RSD & fuckwits like 'Simple Pickup' etc get better followings.

Torero (though smart and with great advice to dispense) proved himself to be very untrustworthy when he was caught hiring actresses for "in fields". Reading the email exchanges between him and the model show a total casual disregard for being caught and ruining his professional reputation. I always felt this spoke to his inherent dishonesty, and this is the reason I never bought any of his products.

I'm baffled that grown ass man is bitching about being credited only by his first name for adding few corrections to his friend's book. Not to mention that I wouldn't even want to be credited at all in any Torero's work.

Quote: (03-20-2016 05:37 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Is Tom Torrero the plain looking dull as dishwater one who doesn't lift and has no other redeeming features? I don't know how guys can take some one these dudes seriously. What is the rank of a guy like that? Obviously he was hiring actresses, it's like wondering if Kanye can sing or not. There was another one in that crew, the guy with half a head of long blond hair, 'Yoshi' I think, I could believe he gets laid. Another was called 'Yeb' I think, some fat loser, RioNomad summed it up with 'I'd have to see him stick it in a girl in person to believe he's ever done that'.

I met Torero a while ago.

The dirty secret is that he's a tall, relatively in-shape, reasonably good-looking guy who somehow manages to look much uglier on camera.

I don't care about all these controversies and drama, but I have no doubt he regularly gets laid, and he knows his stuff when it comes to daygame.

Quote: (03-20-2016 05:37 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Is Tom Torrero the plain looking dull as dishwater one who doesn't lift and has no other redeeming features? I don't know how guys can take some one these dudes seriously. What is the rank of a guy like that? Obviously he was hiring actresses, it's like wondering if Kanye can sing or not. There was another one in that crew, the guy with half a head of long blond hair, 'Yoshi' I think, I could believe he gets laid. Another was called 'Yeb' I think, some fat loser, RioNomad summed it up with 'I'd have to see him stick it in a girl in person to believe he's ever done that'.


This is why I ended up here, Roosh's stuff is actually interesting and believable. His shtick is traveling the world, including backwater Siberian shitholes like in an old vid of his I saw the other day, ploughing hotter more feminine chicks, all whilst trolling leftists, and getting paid handsomely to do and preach this. He also candidly talks about failures and doesn't hold multi-thousand dollar 'bootcamps' teaching magic words. I have no idea how these bunch & RSD & fuckwits like 'Simple Pickup' etc get better followings.

"Yeb" is Yad, whose game (I'm told, people who actually know him should feel free to correct me) is fairly close to being the girl's gay best friend.

There are two reasons why these guys (meaning the London guys/RSD/Simple Pickup/etc.) get a following. First, they're doing something that's so out of the average man's reality. I remember the first time I saw day game, it looked like a superhero thing. I had no idea that you could just walk up to women stone cold sober and hit on them. I'm sure that other guys on here would agree. Second, they make it look a hell of a lot easier than it actually is. Daygame is not a fantasy world. Most people drop out within the first 6 months. I'd imagine there's a 90% attrition rate.

Tom Torrero responded on his site to the accusations.

It's essential Manosphere beef. Besides - in life you gotta realize who is a real friend and who at best qualifies as a business partner.

However Tom is right insofar that Nick Krauser could have solved it over a beer than doing it publicly, but that's life - we learn through crap we do.

Personally I am absolutely against dragging private conflicts (even professional ones) into the public unless one party starts doing that.

Quote: (03-20-2016 02:47 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

"Yeb" is Yad, whose game (I'm told, people who actually know him should feel free to correct me) is fairly close to being the girl's gay best friend.

Serious? I thought that shit was always in movies.

I also met Torero on Regent Street years ago. He was training somebody so I only spoke to him briefly, but I could see he has teeth, even though he comes across quite weak in videos. He's a fraud though, and it surprised me how forgiving people were at the time (GLL is another that people seemed to want to give the benefit of the doubt to, even though that video was highly suspect).

It's true that many in this community seem to be very prone to these emotional outbursts. All the talk of being such masculine men, but then their behaviour betrays them.

What a bunch of drama queens

Fellas I'll be in London in late-April, whose down to party?

Quote: (03-20-2016 05:21 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

What a bunch of drama queens

Fellas I'll be in London in late-April, whose down to party?

I'm an hour or so from London, but I'd definitely be up for coming up and hanging out.

Apparently they are friends again. Krauser and Torero both have removed the offending pages from their websites.

The thin veneer of alpha can never completely cover the beta underneath.

Never been a fan of the "PUA" types so to speak. Always thought they were clowns. Roosh, Krauser, and old school Rollo earned my respect though as they are a different breed and type of person(more practical and analytical not cringe worthy like most popular in fields are). This forum is filled with people who could outplay guys like Tom any day of the week.

Quote: (03-20-2016 07:08 PM)DonnyGately Wrote:  

The thin veneer of alpha can never completely cover the beta underneath.

Learning every tactic/routine/line in existence won't help you one bit if you don't undergo the actual personal change.

God knows I learned that the hard way.

Am I the only one here who likes both Nick and Tom? Both guys have produced a lot of value- books and videos. A bit annoying to read some forum members alleging they are frauds when it's obvious that both guys have put in thousands of approaches.

Have to say that this spat makes neither of them come off very well.

Quote: (03-20-2016 11:10 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Quote: (03-20-2016 07:08 PM)DonnyGately Wrote:  

The thin veneer of alpha can never completely cover the beta underneath.

Learning every tactic/routine/line in existence won't help you one bit if you don't undergo the actual personal change.

God knows I learned that the hard way.

Yes, and that's why I don't buy into the PUA stuff much anymore either. There are guys that can do a 1000+ approaches and still come off socially awkward as hell; a great indicator that sufficient personal transformation has not yet taken place. No amount of approaches or techniques can make you feel good about yourself unless you already feel good when approaching.

Learning about yourself and self reflection on your strengths and flaws are a more productive endeavor to me. Approaching is fine but a lot of guys substitute more approaches in place of true self improvement.

Quote: (03-20-2016 06:30 PM)Candlejack Wrote:  

Apparently they are friends again. Krauser and Torero both have removed the offending pages from their websites.

I don't want to make baseless accusations against anyone, but in this case, this might just have been a marketing trick.

Relevant: Torero is hosting a meet-up in NYC Union Square this Friday.

Quote: (03-21-2016 02:44 AM)Requiem Wrote:  

Quote: (03-20-2016 06:30 PM)Candlejack Wrote:  

Apparently they are friends again. Krauser and Torero both have removed the offending pages from their websites.

I don't want to make baseless accusations against anyone, but in this case, this might just have been a marketing trick.

While bad news can work as good news, this only fulfills the goal if you reach a higher readership and go viral.

This public dirty laundry washing produced only conflict that did not help either of the two. It is good that they have dealt with it like men and gave it a rest.

Both have a high degree of Game skills and especially Krauser conveys it very professionally. If Game/Seduction were taught as part of psychology (as it should be), then Krauser would have to be made a professor and do massive lectures (and probably bang female students there - perfect job for a PUA). Ha - actually they had that theme shown in the TV series Minority Report, where in the year 2050 Game went mainstream and was taught at universities.

But I wouldn't bet on it anytime soon, though female seduction and LTR skills will some day be taught in human universities for sure, because they are part of behaviorlsm which can be dissected scientifically. Some day in the future science will take a look at this feminism manipulated field and assess it more correctly.

Anyway - this manosphere beef is over.

Quote: (03-21-2016 02:44 AM)Requiem Wrote:  

Quote: (03-20-2016 06:30 PM)Candlejack Wrote:  

Apparently they are friends again. Krauser and Torero both have removed the offending pages from their websites.

I don't want to make baseless accusations against anyone, but in this case, this might just have been a marketing trick.

The fact that both Tom and Krauser have taken down the comments from their own websites does not bode well for the alpha credentials of either of them. There are 2 possibilities here:

1.
No matter how many approaches you’ve done or how many chicks you’ve banged, having an online temper tantrum/meltdown is beta. However, what is even worse is when you try to remove all traces of having done so only a few days after you had it. A real man stands by his words for a long time, even if he later realises they were whack. Being alpha is as much as how you present yourself to other men as it is to what kind (and how many) girls you’re banging. Cobra nailed it with his post above.

Quote: (03-20-2016 11:50 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

There are guys that can do a 1000+ approaches and still come off socially awkward as hell; a great indicator that sufficient personal transformation has not yet taken place. No amount of approaches or techniques can make you feel good about yourself unless you already feel good when approaching.

Learning about yourself and self reflection on your strengths and flaws are a more productive endeavor to me. Approaching is fine but a lot of guys substitute more approaches in place of true self improvement.

2.
It really was a marketing gimmick/troll job to get attention and sell more books. If your product is quality, you don't need this.


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I want to clarify that I have respect for Krauser and what he writes and does, but lately in the last few years it seems that most of the old guard (Rollo, Julian Blanc, Krauser and others) have all shown that they don’t have the unshakeable inner confidence that Roosh has in the face of competition and/or crushing adversity. These other game teachers either back down from their own opinions or accusations, or have petty fits of rage and/or jealousy. In contrast, I have never seen Roosh get overtly emotional about anything....certainly not about any so called “competitor”. Nor have I seen him gloat in an over the top way when they went down in flames.

Roosh put his ass and reputation on the line last summer in Canada with his world tour, and again in February of this year with the cancelled meetups. No other teacher of game has even come close to the kind of logistical pressure and intense public character assassination that Roosh has. He managed to stay calm and focused throughout it all. He may not have won the last battle, but he sure as hell didn’t lose one ounce of respect or have anyone quit the forum because of the meetup cancellations.

This is true alpha.
The cold blooded killer instinct.

The warrior who takes all the punches, keeps getting beat down, but still keeps getting back up over and over again to finally win.

Quote: (03-20-2016 11:24 PM)savvylurker Wrote:  

Am I the only one here who likes both Nick and Tom? Both guys have produced a lot of value- books and videos. A bit annoying to read some forum members alleging they are frauds when it's obvious that both guys have put in thousands of approaches.

Have to say that this spat makes neither of them come off very well.

You can't really get more fraudulent than faking a video. I appreciate that they may offer value, but what Torero did is unacceptable, and removes all credibility in my eyes.