[velkrum]

yes kbell you are on the right track..I didn't want to say anything but cholesterol is extremely healthy and should NOT be avoided. It is especially crucial to have high cholesterol as men get older since cholesterol helps to prevent alzheimer's, slows down the loss of testosterone and a ton of other benefits !

HDL and LDL is all the same..cholesterol is cholesterol. the only difference is the size of of the molecules and protein content.

[babelfish669]

I'm not an expert on cholesterol or arteriosclerosis, but I've learned a few things about it.

The only thing I've heard of possibly reducing arteriosclerosis is a caloric restricted diet ( http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content...9.full.pdf ). That leads me to guess that the more calories you consume overall the rougher shape your arteries are going to be in.

Back to the topic of this thread, there is a right way and a wrong way to eat Paleo. Fundamentally, Paleo says our bodies evolved while consuming a certain type of diet and we should probably stick to that diet.

We can examine the documented transitions of indigenous populations to modern society which have occurred in the past 50 to 100 years. Prior to westernization these populations tend to consume what could pretty much be called a paleo diet. While a good number consume grains, they are in an unprocessed form. After westernization these populations have big problems -- they get fat and sick. This isn't just because they went from active to inactive (although that is the excuse food companies like to give e.g. http://www.beverageinstitute.org/en_US/pages/ .) The problem is because their traditional diet suddenly became inaccessible and everything was replaced with processed Western foods, high in fat and refined sugar.

Whether it is in the Pacific Islands decades ago or rural India today, the story is the same. The indigenous population is removed from their land to make way for development. Without modern skills they are essentially impoverished, and the options for nutrient rich food vanish. Disturbingly few seem to understand why the hell they are getting fat and sick ( http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-07...class.html )

Its next to useless to point out that someone's diet has too much fat and too few vegetables. There is no value which that person can derive from that advice. Thus, in the past 30 years Americans have been trained to purchase foods labelled "low fat" and eat vitamins when they happened to be concerned about their health.

I've spent what is probably 5 years painstakingly adjusting my diet. Until I stumbled on the paleo stuff I was not even close to being on target. You end up in a situation where you justify drinking a soda because you managed to eat a serving of broccoli. Its bullshit. Its not just a matter of figuring out what you really are supposed to be eating but to actually do it in a manner that is effortless.

My conclusion -- besides a healthy robust diet being really fucking expensive -- is that the dietary recommendations being given to people by the government & institutions are effectively imaginary and impossible to follow. It is the equivalent of the Catholic church telling everyone masturbating is a sin and they also can't get have sex before being married. The outcome is always a lie.

For example, I noticed when I eliminated everything considered "bad" it was basically impossible to consume adequate daily calories.

The audience that are buying all of the dieting material (mostly of women I guess), books, magazines, etc, are pretending to be healthy and then gorging themselves on chocolate cake before they go to bed. This is why Oprah & Dr Oz would have all of these high rated shows about "super foods." If you are overweight or morbidly obese your body is broken. Eating some special berry isn't going to do a fucking thing for you. Spending all of your time thinking about these things is an opiate to shield you from reality.

Back to Paleo. As far as I can see, nearly the entirety of our obesity (and diabetes) problems relate to consuming processed calories. How can a person physically consume enough calories to get to be 600 pounds? By consuming vast amounts of processed calories. Good luck doing that on a paleo diet.

Is a paleo diet good for your heart? That returns to to the issue of the right and wrong way to eat paleo. Read Food & Western Disease http://www.amazon.com/Food-Western-Disea...405197714/ The findings of that book, documented in scientific journals, would indicate that a correct Paleo diet virtually eliminates all heart problem. As I've said previously in this thread, its not a particularly high fat diet.

[Chad Daring]

Quote:

Back to Paleo. As far as I can see, nearly the entirety of our obesity (and diabetes) problems relate to consuming processed calories. How can a person physically consume enough calories to get to be 600 pounds? By consuming vast amounts of processed calories. Good luck doing that on a paleo diet.

Truth right there.

The raw nature of paleo makes its very difficult to consume mass calories. All the foods you dont eat on the diet are VERY calorie dense. The foods you do eat with paleo I find are much more filling too. Its my favorite part of low(er) carb lifestyles, you're never really hungry.

I find eating paleo reduces snacking as well because aside from fruit and nuts, there aren't any readily available snacks that are allowable. I've found myself many days just kinda wanting to munch on something and realizing there's nothing I could eat, this helped me put it out of my mind and eat later at a normal meal time.

[babelfish669]

Yeah, everything else I've ever done to my diet, I start thinking about other foods. When your really hungry, even if you don't want to eat pizza and don't particularly like how it tastes, you'll eat pizza.

[slubu]

I still have to read this thread, but I'm on it for a week now and love it. My body feels great and I've lost a pound or two already. I did come across this: http://www.julianbakery.com/bread-produc...d-coconut/

Anyone ever try it or something similar? 1 Net carb per slice...

[IRTdenialist]

Paleo is great. If you're into weight lifting, athletics/ active lifestyle then try adding in raw milk. That'll cut down on on your snack cravings. Actually I may start a new thread on raw milk as it has sooo many benefits.

[Jaydublin]

(01-16-2013 04:18 PM)IRTdenialist Wrote:  

Paleo is great. If you're into weight lifting, athletics/ active lifestyle then try adding in raw milk. That'll cut down on on your snack cravings. Actually I may start a new thread on raw milk as it has sooo many benefits.

I thought most people on that diet stayed away from all milk for the most part.. definitely could be wrong though

[IRTdenialist]

Hi bro, yes you're right. It's a modification to the diet that many athletes use. I Picked up the tip from a T Nation interview with this Wolff fellow. The addition of raw milk is amazing, raw milk was a real game changer for me.

(01-16-2013 08:50 PM)Jaydublin Wrote:  

(01-16-2013 04:18 PM)IRTdenialist Wrote:  

Paleo is great. If you're into weight lifting, athletics/ active lifestyle then try adding in raw milk. That'll cut down on on your snack cravings. Actually I may start a new thread on raw milk as it has sooo many benefits.

I thought most people on that diet stayed away from all milk for the most part.. definitely could be wrong though

[slubu]

I drank raw whole milk for 2 years. Never got sick once while drinking it. Gave it up though, felt kinda bloated. I've been considering bringing it back in but it's supposed to be against the Paleo plan. Got any research/writing on this?

Also, anyone heard of Paleo Bread? Interesting concept if it works. http://www.julianbakery.com/bread-produc...QgodT2kAdQ

[Spider]

As mentioned above, I highly recommend visiting http://www.marksdailyapple.com

A family friend introduced me to that site and I've been eating primal for a few months now. Although it is really difficult to avoid all grains, I think you'll feel a change in your digestion and overall wellbeing if you give it a try.

Try going full 'primal' or 'paleo' for a few weeks and report back how you feel...High protein/high fat low-moderate carb is the way to go.

[IRTdenialist]

Here's the link where Robb Wolf talks about the paleo + milk diet. In reality I draw from both of these diets and sets of principles.

http://www.t-nation.com/testosterone-mag...paleo-diet

Also check out the mountain dog diet which also presents some great concepts/ principles.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums...iples.html

[Ziltoid]

(09-10-2011 01:10 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

I'm not looking to lose weight, just to keep my body in tiptop shape.

As far as prepackaged dogmatic "diets" go, paleo is prettymuch one of the best you could choose for gaining muscle and minimizing fat. Atkins is prettymuch comparable...
Paleo, when done optimally, lends itself to diversified micro-nutrient intake, low carb intake, high fiber intake, high protein intake, and a balanced intake of saturated/monounsaturated/polyunsaturated fats (which is very important to testosterone levels and androgenic function in general). Prettymuch everything you could ask for from a diet as far as performance/health goes.

If you overlook the anti-wheat/dairy pseudo-caveman bullshit, paleo is a great diet all around.
It is, however, not a remotely new idea...
At the end of the day, paleo prettymuch boils down to "Eat wholesome unprocessed foods." Dunno about yours, but that prettymuch sounds like what my mother has been telling me since childhood.

My only real specific advice from experience if you're going to try it would be this; you don't have to eat a ton of fruits or vegetables per say, but you should try and be religious about getting adequate fiber with every meal, be it from fruit/veggies, brown rice, whole grain wheat, other grains, whatever... This can become a problem when you are trying to maintain a high calorie diet, since veggies and such fill you up quickly and displace room in your stomach for higher calorie foods.
So, you could just opt to use a fiber supplement instead. My suggestion is just to make sure you do one or the other.
...Unless you want to poop out a small piece of asphalt every other day.
It's way easy to head down that road on a low carb diet, heh.

Just my two cents...
Best of luck, dude.

[kbell]

*Well the wheat thing is important due to how much issues the modern crop causes outside of celiac. Its a GMO crop being sold as a health food, like soy. Its been so modified its vastly different to the species eaten 40 years before.

*LDL and HDL are not the same. One takes fats to a cell, the other takes them back to the liver and is a different shape and size. You do need both to live. And if your LDL is too high its possible thyroid problem which does make weight loss hard. The thyroid hormones are used to control metabolism. I wouldn't totally discount cholestrol

*Fiber is a joke for digestive issues too. Certain probiotics like kefirs seem to work well. Squats, and lots of water helps too. Over do oil can do it as well. Greasing up the shoot.

*For milk lovers there is Marks Daily Apple or Primal diet

*For rice lovers, high fat, low meat their is Perfect Health Diet (going to read this one soon).

[Ziltoid]

(01-16-2013 10:36 PM)kbell Wrote:  

*Well the wheat thing is important due to how much issues the modern crop causes outside of celiac.

Namely...? None.
There is no medically valid reason for somebody who lacks gluten sensitivity or wheat allergies (both comprise a tiny percentage of the population) to avoid wheat... It's a carb source prettymuch comparable to any other.
All grains and cereals contain their own types of seed proteins, none of which are really very different from wheat gluten.

Quote:

Its a GMO crop being sold as a health food, like soy. Its been so modified its vastly different to the species eaten 40 years before.

Even if this were true (it's not), allow me to highlight something; the plant modern bananas descended from before humans got their hands on them were tiny, starchy, rock hard, full of seeds, and nearly inedible... Through the magic of genetic engineering (selective breeding), we have the delicious yellow fruit we know today.

So, what's your point?

Quote:

*Fiber is a joke for digestive issues too.

[kbell]

http://chriskresser.com/myths-and-truths-about-fiber

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/will-eati...z21Bauajz5

You can get all the fiber you need from eating fruits, vegetables and starches. You don't need to supplement more unless you can't eat fruits or vegetables due to bacterial problems in the gut. FODMAPS and SIBO are examples of this. In that case phyllium husk may be helpful.

[ghostdog]

The idea of lots of meat and vegetables is a good thing (if it's organic meat), but paleo has many limitations that seem arbitrary.

people in general have such disgusting diets, that of course if they switch to something militant all of a sudden with lots of nutrients like paleo they'll see results. It's not a fair comparison.

[Jaydublin]

I have such a hard time with any of these diets after a few months because I become a slave to the kitchen and eventually get burned out and eat tv dinners for 4 weeks or so. I was doing the Paleo thing from Sept-early Jan. I lost a ton of muscle and found myself getting very severely depressed 1-2 nights a week. I don't blame the diet, only my version of the diet. Next time I'll go at it differently.

[Doctor]

I don't believe there is anything magical about eating "paleo". Any sensible diet will work when properly applied and can be highly situational dependent.

I hate to use elite athletes as an example when applied to the average person (elite athletes are not normal people), but when Michael Phelps was a big deal in 2008 his diet came out and it was full of junk food. If you burn, what I believe the number stated was, 12,000 calories a day swimming it is essentially impossible to entirely clean and still consume enough calories to survive.

That being said, if you're really fat then you don't need carbs. End of story. If you want to get really, really lean, odds are you are among the majority that will need to severely limit your carb intake.

Just because the medical profession is endorsing a current diet trend doesn't make it 100% correct. Odds are they will change their mind in the future. And just like every other diet trend, things will go in and out of popularity.

All of the health benefits that people have mentioned I have observed in countless other people following other sensible diets not restricted to "paleo" eating.

I won't argue with the fact that veggies and fruit are good for you and should be included in any diet. That's not what I'm getting at.

As far as "paleo" being the optimal diet for body composition and muscular gains, There aren't many bodybuilders/powerlifters/strongmen/oly weightlifting athletes I know that follow the "paleo" regimen. Not applying to the average sedentary person, there were studies done in Soviet and Eastern Bloc countries in the 60s, 70s, and 80s that demonstrated the effect of heavy lifting on the body and how things are flat out changed. An extreme example is an elite Olympic weightlifter (again, I hate using elite athletes for examples, but this is somewhat applicable in the correct parameters) that trains heavy anywhere from 2-4 times a day experiences a constant state of adrenaline excitation. That can significantly change how the body works in regards to caloric consumption, digestion, and use. And let's not forget insulin. Insulin is an extremely powerful hormone that, uniquely, is almost completely controllable. Manipulation of macronutrients to regulate the suppression and use of insulin can be used to an extremely powerful advantage. Combine all of the above with various forms of cardio and/or a serious and efficiently programmed strength training program and things can get as complicated as you would like.

As far as my own personal experience, I don't eat "paleo". Never have, never will. It is not for me and my current level of performance. There are elements of my diet that resemble "paleo", but on the whole it is quite different. I was completely healthy before, but my BP has lowered even with eating frozen pizzas and ice cream (non-organic). Also this is the best I've ever felt. Not trying to change anybody's viewpoints, just trying to show that any sensible dietary regimen when properly applied can work.

Also, I hate the whole "it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle" and the whole "paleo" culture. Anytime people take something that is useful and they make it out to be the greatest thing in the world and build an annoying culture around it bothers me (the warrior diet for another example).

And just as a historical question, was it feasible for "cavemen" to risk energy and their lives to be eating meat 3, 4, 5 times a day?

[RXB]

While I used to eat Paleo, I stopped after it started to make me look emaciated.

Nowadays I just eat organic, juice, avoid anything man made or pre-made/preserved (like Beef Jerky and Lunch Meat), and juice.

I've bulked up and look way better than I did when eating Paleo.

[Jaydublin]

(01-17-2013 10:04 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

Just because the medical profession is endorsing a current diet trend doesn't make it 100% correct.

I don't know anybody who tried this diet because of the medical experts lol

[Doctor]

(09-10-2011 02:11 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

Paleo diet's legit, there's a lot of evidence that it works and that we're evolutionarily well-adapted to it. They're teaching medical students these days that Paleo is the ideal way to have a balanced, healthy diet.

Just referring to this.

[IRTdenialist]

Whatever diet you follow, try and stay away from white sugar and processed carbs. Eating natural and whole foods makes a hell of a difference. Juicing is also the shit!

[babelfish669]

(01-16-2013 11:04 PM)Ziltoid Wrote:  

(01-16-2013 10:36 PM)kbell Wrote:  

*Well the wheat thing is important due to how much issues the modern crop causes outside of celiac.

Namely...? None.
There is no medically valid reason for somebody who lacks gluten sensitivity or wheat allergies (both comprise a tiny percentage of the population) to avoid wheat... It's a carb source prettymuch comparable to any other.
All grains and cereals contain their own types of seed proteins, none of which are really very different from wheat gluten.

Quote:

Its a GMO crop being sold as a health food, like soy. Its been so modified its vastly different to the species eaten 40 years before.

Even if this were true (it's not), allow me to highlight something; the plant modern bananas descended from before humans got their hands on them were tiny, starchy, rock hard, full of seeds, and nearly inedible... Through the magic of genetic engineering (selective breeding), we have the delicious yellow fruit we know today.

So, what's your point?

The major problem with modern wheat consumption isn't gluten intolerance, its the consumption of processed food (In the US these products are primarily derived from wheat, soy, and corn.) So, when you tell someone to stop eating wheat/grains, you throw out a huge chunk of the processed food categories.

The second issue is that the nutrient content is lower than fruits and vegetables. When you say eat X, your also telling people to not eat Y, because there is only so much food a person to consume in a day. Generally people will prioritize certain items in their daily diet and put things such as vegetables at the very bottom. In general its better to be eating fresh produce than slices of bread. From a behavioral science standpoint if I tell people to eat more fresh produce they don't. If I tell them to stop eating bread and rice, surprise, they start eating more vegetables.

Those two things have nothing to do with the paleo diet, but food behavior in general.

The third issue, which is a "paleo diet" issue, is nutrient absorption, which is basically that the grains interfere with the bioavailability of minerals. So, eat a few pieces of bread, take a vitamin, not all of those vitamins are going to be absorbed by your body. (Look up "phytic acid nutrient absorption" if you want to read more about this.)

As for GMO/selective bred/hybrid foods/etc, yeah keep an eye on them. This is the same thing "wheat" is, a product derived from selective breeding to produce something that didn't really exist naturally.

Most of the popular writing on the paleo diet is pretty far off base. The paleo blogosphere is full of bacon, many also throw in butter too. The only place the paleo diet significantly diverges from the general scientific consensus is relating to dairy consumption in adults. At the same time, we have the scientific literature linking dairy consumption with diabetes, so its not a one way street. If you are not monitoring your intake then your calcium intake will drop well below nutritional guidelines.

For the guys complaining about not getting unhumanly big on paleo, yeah that is not the point. You need to be loading on things that will make you grow -- like dairy protein and grains. In many respects, its the complete opposite of paleo.

If you are trying to get big, I would strongly recommend monitoring your blood pressure and blood cholesterol, especially if you have any hereditary history of heart disease. Tons of exercise and a perfectly built body often hides arteries in horrible condition. I would not sell Michael Phelps life insurance.

I hoped this helped. I don't post here very often anymore. I have continued to carefully study this stuff. I've been on a very close to paleo diet for quite some time. I don't have food behavioral issues so I still eat the other stuff on occasion (generally when traveling) and it has yet to derail my diet. The biggest downside isn't time (its actually very quick when you precook food in bulk) but the price. If you are consuming 4,000+ calories a day I would assume you would need to budget $1,500-$2,000 a month for quality (grass fed beef, wild fish, lots of nuts etc.) The produce on the other hand isn't so bad.

[Ziltoid]

(01-22-2013 05:38 PM)babelfish669 Wrote:  

The major problem with modern wheat consumption isn't gluten intolerance, its the consumption of processed food (In the US these products are primarily derived from wheat, soy, and corn.) So, when you tell someone to stop eating wheat/grains, you throw out a huge chunk of the processed food categories.

I'll certainly agree that processed grains, including wheat, are a big problem in the Western diet at large... It's hard to argue anything less. But the argument that telling people to not eat any wheat ever is good because it leads them to eat less processed food is similar to arguing that people should never eat fruit because it contains mostly fructose...
There are plenty of unprocessed and minimally processed whole grain wheat products available in supermarkets, just look for this on the packaging...

(01-22-2013 05:38 PM)babelfish669 Wrote:  

The second issue is that the nutrient content is lower than fruits and vegetables. When you say eat X, your also telling people to not eat Y, because there is only so much food a person to consume in a day. Generally people will prioritize certain items in their daily diet and put things such as vegetables at the very bottom. In general its better to be eating fresh produce than slices of bread. From a behavioral science standpoint if I tell people to eat more fresh produce they don't. If I tell them to stop eating bread and rice, surprise, they start eating more vegetables.
...
For the guys complaining about not getting unhumanly big on paleo, yeah that is not the point. You need to be loading on things that will make you grow -- like dairy protein and grains. In many respects, its the complete opposite of paleo.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing, here.
Is the primary function of food not simply to impart calories?
How does eating a diet geared towards muscle gain equate to trying to become inhumanly big? : /
As if eating grains is equivalent to taking steroids or something...

An optimal diet for muscle gain and endurance training (and by proxy, a diet for optimal health, period) will have to have a pretty substantial amount of carbohydrates in it... Both for optimal glycogen function (an issue all it's own) and because, well, you have to eat SOMETHING to fill 4,000 calories a day. And, the reality is; good luck accomplishing such macro-nutrient ratios with lean meat, vegetables, and whey protein... You just can't do it.
Eating grains does not mean you will develop a micronutrient deficiency, and it doesn't even mean that you can't also eat a respectable amount of fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts, and beans.

(01-22-2013 05:38 PM)babelfish669 Wrote:  

The third issue, which is a "paleo diet" issue, is nutrient absorption, which is basically that the grains interfere with the bioavailability of minerals. So, eat a few pieces of bread, take a vitamin, not all of those vitamins are going to be absorbed by your body. (Look up "phytic acid nutrient absorption" if you want to read more about this.)

Um.
It is biologically impossibly to absorb 100% of all the vitamins and nutrients that you take into your body... Ever.

Phytic acid (of which larger amounts can frequently be found in nuts and seeds than in wheat, BTW) is just one of many known anti-nutrients; virtually anything you eat will "interfere" with the bioavailability of some vitamin/nutrient or another. Vitamins and nutrients even interfere with the bioavailability of eachother; zinc can negatively affect magnesium and copper levels and vice versa, calcium can interfere with vitamin C absorption and vice versa... Despite being rich in a ton of nutrients and polyphenol antioxidants, the oxalates and tannins found in tea extract, chocolate, wine, and many other foods also happen to be srather strong antinutrives to a number of vitamins. There are literally more known interactions of this type than I could begin to name here, and phytic acid isn't even a particularly strong or noteworthy one; it is only through paleo blogger propaganda that phytic acid has somehow become known as this evil chemical that makes it impossible for your body to absorb dietary minerals.

Anti-nutritive factors are frankly not a major consideration in food choice... Though there are a literally almost innumerable number of antinutrients in almost every food that we consume, the overall effect of them is very, very small, and frequently, known antinutritive factors are already accounted for in the established recommended allowances of vitamins and nutrients.

(01-22-2013 05:38 PM)babelfish669 Wrote:  

If you are trying to get big, I would strongly recommend monitoring your blood pressure and blood cholesterol, especially if you have any hereditary history of heart disease. Tons of exercise and a perfectly built body often hides arteries in horrible condition. I would not sell Michael Phelps life insurance.

I'm puzzled as to why you would strongly recommend caution over cardiovascular health to the one group of people that is the least predisposed to any such risks... Until taken to IFBB competitive levels (anything is unhealthy in extremes) the bodybuilding diet and lifestyle is prettymuch the most healthy option possible.
Perhaps it would be more beneficial to strongly recommend that people who don't exercise and eat cheetos all day keep an eye on their blood pressure and cholesterol? Just a thought.

[Hades]

(01-16-2013 10:36 PM)kbell Wrote:  

*Well the wheat thing is important due to how much issues the modern crop causes outside of celiac. Its a GMO crop being sold as a health food, like soy. Its been so modified its vastly different to the species eaten 40 years before.

*LDL and HDL are not the same. One takes fats to a cell, the other takes them back to the liver and is a different shape and size. You do need both to live. And if your LDL is too high its possible thyroid problem which does make weight loss hard. The thyroid hormones are used to control metabolism. I wouldn't totally discount cholestrol

*Fiber is a joke for digestive issues too. Certain probiotics like kefirs seem to work well. Squats, and lots of water helps too. Over do oil can do it as well. Greasing up the shoot.

This is correct. It's pretty easy to argue that modern high-yield dwarf wheat basically invented the current obesity epidemic if you can accept the premise that the wheat artificially induces appetite. "Whole grain" notwithstanding, pretty much all wheat is nutritional garbage.