[reciproke]

(09-28-2017 07:25 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

I am subscribed to him. I watched that video a while ago. It was interesting video and very weird. People in the comments have tried to discover what country he is referring to. Me and my friend thought about Kosovo and these weird non recognized EE countries. Btw, this guy made Ciri's sword from Witcher 3 and is physicist by education.

His story sounded strangely similar. It's completely within expectations from what I experienced in my ~10 years of experience with Eastern European Practitioners of HEMA/Huscarl.

The formula was similar. A buffet and drunk eastern european guys. The "boss" of those particular polish guys was considered dangerous and unreliable. A couple of times he orderd his (new) guys to duel someone with bare fists just for fun.

One time this boss asked me if I enjoyed it there at the place. Naive as I am a started to answer the question, just to be interrupted by a strong headbutt against my chest. That guy was nuts.

Some of the other guys walked around bare chested with massive scars on their chests from fighting with sharp swords, usually viking sword or saber. Not just the occasional scar, but competely covered in scar tissue.

So, while I am not saying that the people involved were the same, everythings sounds eerily similar and completely within expectations. That's why I absolutely believe his story.

[sterling_archer]

Sounds to me like some mafiosi guys who happen to be into HEMA / swordfighting. Similar to how Yakuza in Japan are attracted to samurai culture. In Serbia they have fetish on medieval pre-Ottoman rule Serbian kingdom. Anyways, they all have some kind of fetish.
What do you think which country is he referring to?

[DarkTriad]

Slighty off topic, but this clip has been called the most realistic depiction of mass hand to hand combat ever filmed. It's a foreign film you may have never heard of before, but stars Viggo Mortensen.

[YoungBlade]

^ From my limited knowledge, that seems quite accurate.

Thanks for sharing!

[YoungBlade]

Humorous tournament footage:

[scorpion]

This is cringeworthy on so many levels. More than anything else, it is completely pointless. Why stand around LARPing as a sword fighter in the year 2017? Who are you going to fight with a sword? Further, what kind of sword fighting technique are you even actually learning by fighting armored opponents and not using slashing or piercing attacks? Most of these guys are just bludgeoning each other. With swords. This is completely retarded.

The reason men used to practice fighting with swords is not because they thought sword fighting was soooo cool and fun and a great workout. It was because swords were the military weapons of the day. They trained because they wanted to become better killers. In contrast, anyone pretend sword fighting in 2017 is doing so because they played too many video games/watched too many movies and think that swords are totally sweet.

You are mistaking the appearance of the thing for its essence. Traditional European sword fighting was not about fighting with swords. It was about becoming a dangerous man. If the men who mastered the art of sword fighting a thousand years ago were alive today, they would consider you a complete fool for wasting your time play-fighting with swords. That's because they were serious men who were interested in the practical art of killing. They were soldiers. You dishonor them and make a fool of yourself by slapping people with swords and calling it "Historical European Martial Arts."

If you want to truly align yourself with the spirit of traditional European martial arts, learn how to box and wrestle, lift weights, and more than anything learn to shoot guns very well. All types of guns. Learn tactical shooting and do combat drills. Become so comfortable with a gun in your hand that you feel a part of you is missing when you aren't holding one. That's what those ancient sword fighters would be doing right now, not actually fighting with swords. If you want to be a dangerous man, then become a dangerous man. But you won't get there by play-fighting with swords.

This was harsh, but it needed to be said. You're clearly in some kind of a bubble with this nonsense (for fuck's sake, please tell me you don't actually believe that dorky YouTuber was in a sword duel to the death?) and need to hear a dissenting opinion. Take it or leave it.

[YoungBlade]

^
I invite you to box or wrestle a HEMA practitioner. Myself included. No weapons, no armor.

For the record, THIS is LARP:

[scorpion]

Sigh. I tried.

Go with God, YoungBlade. May your sword never dull and your chainmail underpants never chafe your balls.

[YoungBlade]

That's what I thought.

[reciproke]

Quote:

This is cringeworthy on so many levels. More than anything else, it is completely pointless. Why stand around LARPing as a sword fighter in the year 2017? Who are you going to fight with a sword? Further, what kind of sword fighting technique are you even actually learning by fighting armored opponents and not using slashing or piercing attacks? Most of these guys are just bludgeoning each other. With swords. This is completely retarded.

You usually put out good content, but you completely dropped the ball with this one. HEMA is not about "larping" but reconstructing and interpreting historical sources. It goes hand in hand with Archeology the study of respective cultures and societies. Dont confuse the M-1 stuff with HEMA.

I am not going to explain why it has become a popular hobby to you, since you are clearly not interested in finding out what's behind the phenomenon. HEMA itself is not a competetive sport per se, but can be treated as such to some degree.

I usually don't need to explain men why it is fun to do close combat, especially when cold steel is involved. I am not going to start with you.

Quote:

Traditional European sword fighting was not about fighting with swords.

It is and always has been. In Ancient Rome a lot of people joined Gladiatorial Schools just for fun, not because they had to. There always have been fencing school that trained their pupils in anachronistic or exotic weaponry - just for fun.

In our Student Fraternities we still duel with sharp swords since the 18th century. As a rite of initiation, as a ritual to protect your honor - even to the death. Bet you didn't know that and feel stupid now.

Quote:

If you want to truly align yourself with the spirit of traditional European martial arts, learn how to box and wrestle, lift weights, and more than anything learn to shoot guns very well.

Implying any of us doesn't do that already. Interesting that you mention boxing and wrestling - both fall into the HEMA category. Since you didn't spend a single minute on research, but rather on what the kids today call sperging out you don't know that, and your only argument ist "stop liking what I don't like".

I personally would not even recommend boxing or wrestling, but knife fighting. We also have a lot of historical treatises on that. Ressources people wouldn't use, if everyone thought like you.

Thankfully you are the exception, not the rule. Your lack of curiosity and respect is truly exceptional. Feel free to leave the thread and focus your efforts on other topics.

[scorpion]

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

You usually put out good content, but you completely dropped the ball with this one. HEMA is not about "larping" but reconstructing and interpreting historical sources. It goes hand in hand with Archeology the study of respective cultures and societies. Dont confuse the M-1 stuff with HEMA.

All I see is a bunch of guys wearing armor and slapping each other with swords. There is no traditional technique being used because you can't slash or stab people, which is kind of the point of using a sword over a club. And there's about as much archaeology going on as an Indiana Jones movie.

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

I am not going to explain why it has become a popular hobby to you, since you are clearly not interested in finding out what's behind the phenomenon. HEMA itself is not a competetive sport per se, but can be treated as such to some degree.

This is not a popular hobby. This is about as niche as it comes, and rightfully so. Normal people see how ridiculous this nonsense is and steer clear. Men actually interested in becoming dangerous focus on more practical skills like unarmed combat and tactical shooting, both of which have infinitely more real-world application that learning to swing a sword like a club while wearing armor.

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

I usually don't need to explain men why it is fun to do close combat, especially when cold steel is involved. I am not going to start with you.

LARPing as a sword fighter is certainly fun for dorks. Actual sword fighting not so much since you're almost guaranteed to be maimed or killed. But then again you aren't doing actual sword fighting, you're just playing dress up and slapping each other with dull blades.

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

It is and always has been. In Ancient Rome a lot of people joined Gladiatorial Schools just for fun, not because they had to. There always have been fencing school that trained their pupils in anachronistic or exotic weaponry - just for fun.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand: you aren't being trained in anachronistic of exotic weaponry. You're play-fighting with swords, and aren't even using them properly. This is the equivalent of a bunch of guys bashing each other with the butts of rifles and talking about how they are dangerous gun fighters.

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

In our Student Fraternities we still duel with sharp swords since the 18th century. As a rite of initiation, as a ritual to protect your honor - even to the death. Bet you didn't know that and feel stupid now.

No one in the year 2017 is engaging in sword duels to the death. This weird hobby you're engaged in is in no way comparable to actual historical combat or even European student fencing duels (which, by the way, were more about acquiring facial scars and peacocking for the ladies than anything else). I feel like I've stumbled into an alternate universe of nerd stupidity, as apparently you and YoungBlade both believe there is some sort of Highlander-esque underground sword dueling scene these days. But there is not. There is only the lies and fantasies of dorks on YouTube like that guy YoungBlade posted.

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

Implying any of us doesn't do that already. Interesting that you mention boxing and wrestling - both fall into the HEMA category. Since you didn't spend a single minute on research, but rather on what the kids today call sperging out you don't know that, and your only argument ist "stop liking what I don't like".

If you want to box, then box. If you want to wrestle, then wrestle. Don't put on a bunch of armor and pick up a dull sword and try to do both while also slapping another armored nerd with your blade. It's hard to think of a more useless and unrealistic form of combat training in the modern day, unless of course you spend most of your time walking around wearing armor and carrying a sword (which admittedly is very possible for the high caliber dorks attracted to this hobby).

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

I personally would not even recommend boxing or wrestling, but knife fighting. We also have a lot of historical treatises on that. Ressources people wouldn't use, if everyone thought like you.

Knife fighting (or more accurately, learning knife attack techniques and drills) is infinitely more useful than learning to sword fight in this day and age. This is because it's actually practical to carry a knife on your person and realistically use it for self-defense. You're probably talking about something totally ridiculous like pretend dueling with knives though, which is totally unrealistic and stupid but does have the benefit of allowing you to LARP as your favorite video game character. Maybe TravelerKai will come in here and enlighten you as to what actually happens in real life when two guys with knives have a "duel" (Hint: there is no winner).

(09-29-2017 05:58 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

Thankfully you are the exception, not the rule. Your lack of curiosity and respect is truly exceptional. Feel free to leave the thread and focus your efforts on other topics.

If I don't are you going to challenge me to a duel to the death?

[redbeard]

Actual video of scorpion joining this thread:

[reciproke]

Quote:

All I see is a bunch of guys wearing armor and slapping each other with swords.

You are confusing the HEMA stuff with M1 stuff from Eastern Europe. Fuck knows why they are soo keen on pushing it. But it takes not even a minute to verify that it hardly has anything to do with Historical/Western Martial Arts. I repeat: The one thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. The time you spent wagging your dick around here could have been spent looking that up. With each post you are losing credibility. Instead of doubling down, it's time for you to realise that you fucked up. Shit happens. But don't do yourself the disservice of continuing to do so. You seem to be popular here and your posts are usually of quality, so I don't see a point in you screwing that up now.

Quote:

This weird hobby you're engaged in is in no way comparable to actual historical combat or even European student fencing duels (which, by the way, were more about acquiring facial scars and peacocking for the ladies than anything else)

The duels where "unbedingte Saktisfaktion" required, with potentially deadly weapons like military saber or even pistol, are officially illegal and fought in secrecy. While they are seldom and so are deaths, they happened in modern times, too. You can make what you want out of it.

[sterling_archer]

(09-29-2017 09:27 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

All I see is a bunch of guys wearing armor and slapping each other with swords. There is no traditional technique being used because you can't slash or stab people, which is kind of the point of using a sword over a club. And there's about as much archaeology going on as an Indiana Jones movie.

Here I completely agree with you, but as reciproke said, I too fail to see how you don't realize you are not talking about HEMA, but about "next level LARP-ing".

Wikipedia:

Quote:

Historical European martial arts (HEMA) refers to martial arts of European origin, particularly using arts formerly practised, but having since died out or evolved into very different forms.

While there is limited surviving documentation of the martial arts of Classical Antiquity (such as Ancient Greek wrestling or Gladiatorial combat), surviving dedicated technical treatises or combat manuals date to the Late Middle Ages and the Early Modern period. For this reason, the focus of HEMA is de facto on the period of the half-millennium of ca. 1300 to 1800, with a German and an Italian school flowering in the Late Middle Ages and the Renaissance (14th to 16th centuries), followed by Spanish, French, English and Scottish schools of fencing in the modern period (17th and 18th centuries). Arts of the 19th century such as classical fencing, and even early hybrid styles such as Bartitsu may also be included in the term HEMA in a wider sense, as may traditional or folkloristic styles attested in the 19th and early 20th centuries, including forms of folk wrestling and traditional stick fighting methods.

[scorpion]

(09-29-2017 10:34 AM)reciproke Wrote:  

You are confusing the HEMA stuff with M1 stuff from Eastern Europe. Fuck knows why they are soo keen on pushing it. But it takes not even a minute to verify that it hardly has anything to do with Historical/Western Martial Arts. I repeat: The one thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. The time you spent wagging your dick around here could have been spent looking that up. With each post you are losing credibility. Instead of doubling down, it's time for you to realise that you fucked up. Shit happens. But don't do yourself the disservice of continuing to do so. You seem to be popular here and your posts are usually of quality, so I don't see a point in you screwing that up now.

I'm simply commenting on the videos YoungBlade posted, which show men wearing armor and clubbing each other with swords. I have no idea how many variations of this stuff there are - I'm just saying that what's going on in those videos is absolutely ridiculous and certainly LARPing - it's literally men dressing up as knights and whacking each other with swords.

Seriously, how is this not LARPing?

[Dalaran1991]

I'm not sure why Scorpion feel the need to criticize a the thread? Everybody has or need a hobby. Some stick their face into computer night and day. Some chase women non-stop for little gain. Some do drugs. Some glue their face to their iphone. Some play football. Some play tennis. Some do pingpong. I assume those are the "normal" people Scorpion are referring to? But if we are going by that kind of standard then to the world the people on this forum are already wayyy abnormal and deserve to be extinct.

Here we have a hobby where people are getting some intense exercise, socialize with each other in the rough bonhomie men are supposed to. And if they are serious they may learn some actual combat techniques.

Nobody in the thread said anything about HEMA being practical, you have to be really out of touch to believe that. But is baseball practical? Rugby? Tennis? Volleyball? Am I supposed to kill the next Muslim invader with my heavy duty ball throw? No? Then should all baseball player convert into BJJ then?

It's a hobby for people to get off some steam, that's all. And from time to time you meet tons of cool guys who did BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing and other "practical" stuff.

About the vid: battle of nations is retarded, but it's incredibly fun, and that's about it. This doesn't has anything to do with HEMA though. Some HEMA people in my club think battle of nations are retarded.

[YoungBlade]

Today I did longsword sparring. Definitely been improving, not just with technique, but in using strength against more technical opponents. Attempts at fancy crooked strikes and other tricks were forced back by heavy blows.

Encouraging.

[TravelerKai]

Holy shit I cannot believe Scorpion came in this thread like this! I'm dying of laughter. Hey Scorpion, wasn't it your ass that advised Roosh to get a Roman Shortsword, with the round pommel on the bottom of the handle, when he asked for ideas on a home defense weapon? I thought you were serious back then when you said it. Don't tell me all this time you were joking around. LOL!

[redbeard]

(03-01-2016 06:02 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I think aeroektar has the right idea here. Look to the past, when men didn't have a choice about whether to defend themselves with a gun or not. Ignoring bows (need a lot of training and useless in close quarters) and crossbows (slow to reload, also limited in close quarters), pretty much all killing was done hand to hand. And what sort of weapons did the most effective fighters use?

A short sword and a shield. The shield is the most important thing here. It's hard for us today to appreciate how important and effective shields were (and are, really) in hand to hand combat. A shield is both a weapon itself and an enormously effective defensive barrier. I think we tend to discount shields because most of our exposure to hand to hand combat comes from movies and video games, where we often see exotic weapons or daring fighting styles employed. But the reality is that hand to hand fighting is almost always ugly and brutal to watch. And if you fuck up even once, you will end up dead, grievously wounded or maimed for life. The best way to stay alive is having a very strong defense combined with a reliable offense. A short sword is small enough to be maneuvered easily but large enough to inflict devastating stabbing or slashing wounds. He may not look cool, but a guy bashing you with a shield, deflecting all your blows and stabbing at you relentlessly with a double-edged 20" blade is not someone to fuck with in a dark hallway. That being said, I have absolutely no idea where one would even buy a real fighting shield these days. I would also feel kind of dumb having a shield laying around (perhaps a modern bias), but there's no denying its proven effectiveness for hand to hand fighting.


"Come at me, bro"

There's only one way to settle this.

A duel!!!

Scorpion vs. YoungBlade - swords and shields only!

[TravelerKai]

That's the post!

Look how serious that post is! He went into all kinds of details. Now all of a sudden he looks down on European sword fighting? LOL!!!

[Comte De St. Germain]

Hedging bets for scorpion vs youngblade.


500:1 odds in favor of Viking Chris Stapleton.

200:1 for win by savage beating in favor of YG

100:1 for scorpion's decapitation

Taking any and all bets.

[sterling_archer]

Interestingly enough, gladius has been depicted in popular culture and "knowledge" as primarily stabbing sword. When you look at its construction, that doesn't make sense at all. It was a multi purpose sword, short enough to be able moved easily between your fellow soldiers but long enough to have enough striking surface.
In fact, roman records show us that roman enemies had gruesome wounds on torsos. Intestines falling out, decapitations and such. That proves that they swung around their gladii a lot. Stabbing was reserved only for really close brawling, when shield walls push each others, together with pilum of course and other spears.

P.S. There were various lengths of gladius available.

[YoungBlade]

(10-03-2017 12:47 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Interestingly enough, gladius has been depicted in popular culture and "knowledge" as primarily stabbing sword. When you look at its construction, that doesn't make sense at all. It was a multi purpose sword, short enough to be able moved easily between your fellow soldiers but long enough to have enough striking surface.
In fact, roman records show us that roman enemies had gruesome wounds on torsos. Intestines falling out, decapitations and such. That proves that they swung around their gladii a lot. Stabbing was reserved only for really close brawling, when shield walls push each others, together with pilum of course and other spears.

P.S. There were various lengths of gladius available.

And different shapes, too!



While swinging and slashing was not the main purpose of the gladius, the Latin treatises describe four swings that should be used in combat: either side of the neck and each thigh. For whatever reason, they did not explicitly recommend swinging at the gut. The typical thrusts are sensible: throat, gut, groin/femoral arteries.

[sterling_archer]

Personally I don't like short swords. Spatha is better looking weapon to me and dark age and later medieval swords are its descendants.

[Dalaran1991]

Gladius is cool and all but it's a very specialist weapon. Forget about using it without wearing the heavy armor the Roman legionary had, the short reach is way too dangerous. Paired it up with a shield and it really shines, put 100 of these guys together and give each a pilum and they will conquer the world. Otherwise it's just a short stabbing sword.

I never really like ancient sword that much (and I'm starting to disliking katana despite me being a kenjutsuka), for the simple reasons: why didn't anybody thought about putting a damn guard on the sword? It's not that hard, and the hand is the first thing that will get hit in combat.

I can understand with gladius being a stabbing sword you dont expose your hand that much, but spatha, khopesh and other stuff, put a big guard on and save your hand.