[John_Galt]

Stalin,

I have repeatedly OVER AND OVER again clarified my stance on virgins and "virgin hunting". If you can't be bothered to read just ONE of the MANY posts I wrote which completely debunks your theory above, I won't bother to write a counter argument to you at all.

I'd love to continue this debate, but before I can do so, I need you to stop using straw-man arguments. Thank you.

[Rob Banks]

(11-02-2016 10:37 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Dudes in here talking about how they fuck all these virgins and advocating others do the same. Why? Did you marry them?

Yes.

(11-02-2016 10:37 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Did they birth you children and raise them well?

Not yet, but I sure as fuck plan to.

(11-02-2016 10:37 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

There is a fine line between being careful who you trust and being insecure.

I say this with all due respect Stalin, but the notion that demanding your wife be a virgin makes you "insecure" is a feminist tactic to get men to doubt their biological instincts.

Even if a man were to reject an otherwise good woman because she once kissed a boy when she was 13, that man is not "insecure." In fact, he is very sure of himself and very secure in his belief that he will eventually find a woman that is up to his standards.

(11-02-2016 10:37 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

I know if I screened for girls with zero/limited sexual history then I'd be leaving a metric ton of quality pussy on the table and passing up a lion's share of enjoyable women.

See John_Galt's comment above.

[General Stalin]

I didn't read all 5 pages of this thread so maybe I'm off base. If all my points have been explained in previous posts then my apologies.

That said, my point still stands up. If one is not specifically looking for a wife/mother candidate then he doesn't need to be so worried about finding a Mother Theresa. @ Rob Banks you neglected to quote the paragraph immediately before that where I explained if one is indeed looking for a wife/mother then I believe it wise to concern oneself with a woman's sexual history.

That said, OP was inquring if his concerns could possibly just be insecurity. It's possible they are. Like I said, it's a fine line. I'm not saying any of you boys are insecure, but it certainly happens often that a man will shy away from a female or resent her because he is in someway intimidated by her.

[John_Galt]

Stalin,

The follow up question to your commentary is: What is the purpose of a monogamous LTR if one is certain it won't lead to marriage? Why not date multiple women, or at least fuck them, what's point of monogamy if you aren't considering her for wife status?

I'm not saying there aren't any good reasons, but I'd be very curious to hear them.

[General Stalin]

I guess that would depend on an individual's personal taste. Plenty of men on here will happily date a woman long-term they don't necessarily plan on marrying while maintaining a stable of side pieces - hell some men are married with kids and fuck others girls regularly. Some will say monogamy is just programming, but I would say it's preference.

I'll tell you my personal taste: I haven't had a "girlfriend" in well over 3 years, but for the right kind of girl I would go solo with her even if I was uncertain (or even certain) that she wasn't going to be my future wife or mother of my children. This may sound beta to you, but if I find a girl I really am into and enjoy being with I will actually feel A: unsatisfied and B: guilty if I fuck other girls. As a matter of fact, of the 5 girls I'm seeing right now, there is one I'm particularly sweet on and when I am with one of the other girls I sort of wish it was her instead. I also think it's easier to do big shit with a girl that you spend more time with and are more exclusive with like taking trips together and whatnot.

[Rob Banks]

(11-02-2016 08:56 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

@ Rob Banks you neglected to quote the paragraph immediately before that where I explained if one is indeed looking for a wife/mother then I believe it wise to concern oneself with a woman's sexual history.

I didn't quote that part because I agreed with it. I only quoted the parts I was responding to.

As far as OP wanting to know if he is "insecure" for caring about his girl's sexual past, I repeat, the "insecure" label is a tool feminists use to force slut acceptance on us. It would be "insecure" to stay with a girl whose sexual past you were uncomfortable with out of fear that you wouldn't find anyone better. Having standards and sticking to them is literally the opposite of being insecure.

[Travesty]

Stalin I'd counter that by LTRing girls you don't plan on any real future you inflict some damage on yourself like alpha widows get. I know the nicer parts of the girls I dated closely I will compare and contrast to a future girl good or bad. The more girls you date seriously I think the harder it is to give your whole heart when you keep chopping off pieces and hand them off a long the way.

Worst of all this guy will now develop slut paranoia when he does want to find a real long term girl and may push her away subconciously from past burns.

This doesn't even go into the aspect of robbing the girl in question of wasting her youth on someone. Girls DTF fast are doing so by choice. Carrying a girl into a relationship with her thinking this could be it is on the player. Women don't have defenses against that it really isn't their choice to see a futute when it isn't there and the guy is telling her she's the only one.

It is the player equivalent of greed.

[John_Galt]

Agree with everything Travesty said.

[Travesty]

^ That's because I am sent from the future.

[John_Galt]

(11-02-2016 10:34 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

^ That's because I am sent from the future.

Are you me 3 years older?

That would make a lot of sense.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(11-02-2016 10:08 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

Stalin I'd counter that by LTRing girls you don't plan on any real future you inflict some damage on yourself like alpha widows get. I know the nicer parts of the girls I dated closely I will compare and contrast to a future girl good or bad. The more girls you date seriously I think the harder it is to give your whole heart when you keep chopping off pieces and hand them off a long the way.

Worst of all this guy will now develop slut paranoia when he does want to find a real long term girl and may push her away subconciously from past burns.

This doesn't even go into the aspect of robbing the girl in question of wasting her youth on someone. Girls DTF fast are doing so by choice. Carrying a girl into a relationship with her thinking this could be it is on the player. Women don't have defenses against that it really isn't their choice to see a futute when it isn't there and the guy is telling her she's the only one.

It is the player equivalent of greed.

Having said that, how many relationships that people "plan" to follow through on actually pan out in "'til death do them part"?

How many first time LTRs actually pan out in "'til death do them part"?

Running an LTR is a skill to be cultivated, yet men should know better than to hook their future to an institution that the woman can burn down in an instant, often for no particularly good reason.

My advice to any young man is that LTRs are fine, but enter into them with the expectation that statistically speaking it will end in a disaster and if your shit is wired tight then it's more likely to be her fault than yours.

Or in other words. Act honourably but plan for it to fail. Be pleasantly surprised if she turns out to be a keeper.

[Geomann180]

I just would like to thank the OP for making this thread and Rob Banks, John_Galt, Leonard, General Stalin, et al for all five pages of scintillating and educational reading.

G

[Rob Banks]

(11-02-2016 10:08 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

Stalin I'd counter that by LTRing girls you don't plan on any real future you inflict some damage on yourself like alpha widows get. I know the nicer parts of the girls I dated closely I will compare and contrast to a future girl good or bad. The more girls you date seriously I think the harder it is to give your whole heart when you keep chopping off pieces and hand them off a long the way.

Agreed. I don't think fucking a lot of girls necessarily affects a guy that way, but being in serious relationships with girls certainly does.

(11-02-2016 10:08 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

Worst of all this guy will now develop slut paranoia when he does want to find a real long term girl and may push her away subconciously from past burns.

Additionally, the guy will be X years older (X being the number of years he was in the relationship) and it will be harder for him to find a virgin or inexperienced girl.

(11-02-2016 10:08 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

This doesn't even go into the aspect of robbing the girl in question of wasting her youth on someone. Girls DTF fast are doing so by choice. Carrying a girl into a relationship with her thinking this could be it is on the player. Women don't have defenses against that it really isn't their choice to see a futute when it isn't there and the guy is telling her she's the only one.

It is the player equivalent of greed.

I would say the responsibility is certainly on the player, like you said, but also on the girl. The girl is not a totally innocent victim in all of this. A girl (with the help and approval of her family) should screen out untrustworthy guys. She should also demand a marriage ceremony with witnesses before doing anything sexual, and should make sure that the guy has a good family that will pressure him to do the right thing should he try to leave.

In the old days, the purpose of the marriage ceremony was so that the guy could not try to leave his wife and claim he never committed to her. If the guy tried to leave, the wife's family, with the help of other villagers, would beat the guy up and either force him to man up and stay or run him out of town. Nowadays, the violence is not an option, but a girl should take every precaution to make sure the guy isn't gonna leave. She can't just take his word for it.

It's kind of like a guy who's girl cuckolds him. Obviously, it's the girl's fault, but it's also the guy's fault for trusting the wrong girl.

[Rocha]

(11-02-2016 10:08 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

Stalin I'd counter that by LTRing girls you don't plan on any real future you inflict some damage on yourself like alpha widows get. I know the nicer parts of the girls I dated closely I will compare and contrast to a future girl good or bad. The more girls you date seriously I think the harder it is to give your whole heart when you keep chopping off pieces and hand them off a long the way.

Worst of all this guy will now develop slut paranoia when he does want to find a real long term girl and may push her away subconciously from past burns.

This doesn't even go into the aspect of robbing the girl in question of wasting her youth on someone. Girls DTF fast are doing so by choice. Carrying a girl into a relationship with her thinking this could be it is on the player. Women don't have defenses against that it really isn't their choice to see a futute when it isn't there and the guy is telling her she's the only one.

It is the player equivalent of greed.

All valid points. But it is that bad to be greedy? I certainly can not draw a conclusion yet, I have been greedy...

One thing I know is that most times being altruistic is bad.

I have met plenty of monogamous guys in 10+ years relationships with women that no one around would think they would break a glass... In one particular example one of the girls started bangin the village streetsmart player, forcing the guy who was with her, btw a successful, joyful and good looking one to move away not only from the relationship but far from his family and friends...with so many guys she could have banged has an attractive lady working in the big city and living in the suburbs, she went for the guy who spend his life in the street corner coffee shop...

Other good example was this guy who got into debt to buy a condo to start a life with her after 10 years of dating, and on the day before moving in...she reveals that she can't...because she is banging her co-worker in the last 6 months...(this last one left her sooner too)...

Unfortunately these cases are more common than what they should be. And both guys got robbed of their youth too with women that do not deserved them.

The dating market can be brutal and cruel. Better fuck than be fucked.

[Easy_C]

(11-02-2016 10:08 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

This doesn't even go into the aspect of robbing the girl in question of wasting her youth on someone. Girls DTF fast are doing so by choice. Carrying a girl into a relationship with her thinking this could be it is on the player. Women don't have defenses against that it really isn't their choice to see a futute when it isn't there and the guy is telling her she's the only one.

It is the player equivalent of greed.

Exactly. Know how to separate it. Freaks are for fun, Good Girls are for making babies. Don't try to mix the two up.

[Easy_C]

(11-02-2016 11:51 PM)Rocha Wrote:  

Other good example was this guy who got into debt to buy a condo to start a life with her after 10 years of dating, and on the day before moving in...she reveals that she can't...because she is banging her co-worker in the last 6 months...(this last one left her sooner too)...

Unfortunately these cases are more common than what they should be. And both guys got robbed of their youth too with women that do not deserved them.

The dating market can be brutal and cruel. Better fuck than be fucked.

For me "10 years of dating" is a huge red flag. Almost all of the ones I've met where the whole white picket fence thing actually worked out didn't "date" for massive periods of time, nor did they cohabit and bang without the commitment. With only one exception everyone I've met that has dated for years like that are either old people with sordid pasts or degenerate progs.

The girls who want a traditional gender role will generally be looking to be engaged by a relatively short (but not rushed) period of time. I generally regard it as a good thing when a girl wants to be married with the guy's last name and a kid within 2 years or so from when they start dating....assuming that there's nothing to indicate she's a washed up ho running from the wall of course.

[John_Galt]

All in all, parties on both sides of the arguments have made excellent points. There are definitely advantages to fucking sluts, and no one here would tell you that you should "save yourself" for a good girl. But as several of you pointed out, being in a relationship with a slut can fuck you up emotionally for a long time. Some guys think it's better to be jaded, cold, logical all the time. I don't know for sure. I think I was a better person morally speaking before I had lost all faith in women.

I'm smarter, stronger, and wiser now. But morally? I definitely lost a lot over the past decade. Is it worth the trade? I think so. I hope so.

I do believe that sometimes, it IS better to be ignorant. Some truths just don't help all that much. But I don't think I'd give up what I know, despite sometimes thinking I might be happier if I did. No matter how much pain wisdom causes me, I don't think I'd ever give it up to be a happy fool.

[Geomann180]

(11-03-2016 12:21 AM)John_Galt Wrote:  

I'm smarter, stronger, and wiser now. But morally? I definitely lost a lot over the past decade. Is it worth the trade? I think so. I hope so.

I do believe that sometimes, it IS better to be ignorant. Some truths just don't help all that much. But I don't think I'd give up what I know, despite sometimes thinking I might be happier if I did. No matter how much pain wisdom causes me, I don't think I'd ever give it up to be a happy fool.

I think that's the cruelty of the fruit from the forbidden tree.

I think society was set up, once upon a time, where you learned about the truths of each sex growing up, from somebody else's (if not friend/family then a figure from history) in ways that allowed one to successfully navigate the sexual marketplace without having to grapple with the terrible implications of such knowledge (gleamed from personal, negative experience).

Now, each lesson bears a increasingly larger cost, especially as many are learned personally.

G

[Rob Banks]

(11-03-2016 12:21 AM)John_Galt Wrote:  

I do believe that sometimes, it IS better to be ignorant. Some truths just don't help all that much. But I don't think I'd give up what I know, despite sometimes thinking I might be happier if I did. No matter how much pain wisdom causes me, I don't think I'd ever give it up to be a happy fool.

I don't think I could be a "happy fool" even if I wanted to. Even in my blue pill days, I had a sense that something was off about girls who bragged about having sex or lost their virginity extremely young. Something was just off-putting about them, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I thought I was the crazy one for thinking about that, and that other guys just didn't care about it. I was more of a confused fool than a "happy fool."

When I met my girl (I say "girl" because we never had an official marriage ceremony, but I've known her for 9 years since she was 16), I was still quite blue pill at the time, but for some reason I found myself drawn to her and she just so happened to be a virgin. Looking back, I doubt that was a coincidence.

[dsalsa]

What about virgins who blow guys but still remain virgins? You can never know

[YossariansRight]

(11-03-2016 12:52 AM)Rob Banks Wrote:  

(11-03-2016 12:21 AM)John_Galt Wrote:  

I do believe that sometimes, it IS better to be ignorant. Some truths just don't help all that much. But I don't think I'd give up what I know, despite sometimes thinking I might be happier if I did. No matter how much pain wisdom causes me, I don't think I'd ever give it up to be a happy fool.

I don't think I could be a "happy fool" even if I wanted to. Even in my blue pill days, I had a sense that something was off about girls who bragged about having sex or lost their virginity extremely young. Something was just off-putting about them, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I thought I was the crazy one for thinking about that, and that other guys just didn't care about it. I was more of a confused fool than a "happy fool."

When I met my girl (I say "girl" because we never had an official marriage ceremony, but I've known her for 9 years since she was 16), I was still quite blue pill at the time, but for some reason I found myself drawn to her and she just so happened to be a virgin. Looking back, I doubt that was a coincidence.

^^Exactly. Way, way, way before "Red/Blue" or "Alpha/Beta" entered my stream of consciousness, I found this type of behavior (among others) off putting.

Sort of like in The Bible when Cain killed Abel: There were no laws or courts to charge him, but Cain knew he did something very bad and tried to hide, unsuccessfully.

Humans generally know if something is right or wrong. It's innate.

[Dalaran1991]

(11-03-2016 06:51 AM)dsalsa Wrote:  

What about virgins who blow guys but still remain virgins? You can never know

Yes you do. If you have been with a "pure" virgin before you know whats up with a fake "virgin". Other than the fact they blow you better than the trumpet during parade, of course.

Quote:

I don't think I'd ever give it up to be a happy fool.

There's a saying, the wise man is always afraid. But you dont need to be wise to feel that there's something wrong with a stretched pussy. You can brain wash it with as much feminism as you like, but your biology will tell you otherwise. How can you be "happy" when your gut is always telling you something is off, yet you dont know what it is.

Quote:

But morally? I definitely lost a lot over the past decade.

I dont think we need to worry about this a lot. Its one thing about being a good person, true to yourself and God, and another thing to be slave to modern morality. Looking at history, most codes of moral conducts, whether the laws of Chivalry or Bushido, has been more of a tool for social control.

Plus we men still think about morality like men. Understand that women dont view morality the same way. If she cheats on you but she still loves you, it doesnt count.

Read this thread to have a glimpse at female morality. I dont recommend it though, might make you depressed

thread-31650.html

[General Stalin]

(11-02-2016 09:53 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  

As far as OP wanting to know if he is "insecure" for caring about his girl's sexual past, I repeat, the "insecure" label is a tool feminists use to force slut acceptance on us. It would be "insecure" to stay with a girl whose sexual past you were uncomfortable with out of fear that you wouldn't find anyone better. Having standards and sticking to them is literally the opposite of being insecure.

Just because you use the F word doesn't make my point invalid. Hitler probably drank coffee, does that make all other coffee drinkers genocidal anti-semites? Association fallacy.

Most insecurities are masked by rationalizations. The example you gave is also true - if one were to stay with a woman for fear they would not find someone else (scarcity) that is also insecurity.

If you straight up don't like girls who have been with other men before you strictly out of personal preference, then it is what it is. Like you say, sticking to your tastes is what we all should be doing. On the other hand, if you like the girl but her sexual past worries you because you maybe think you will be inadequate or she will get bored of you or something along those lines then that is insecurity.

Again, like I said: fine line. You need to get down to brass tacks on what it is about a particular woman that makes you apprehensive. That is the reason I offered up this info for OP. It needs to be determined if a female's sexual history makes you uncomfortable because you feel intimidated or you straight up don't like it.

(11-02-2016 10:08 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

Stalin I'd counter that by LTRing girls you don't plan on any real future you inflict some damage on yourself like alpha widows get. I know the nicer parts of the girls I dated closely I will compare and contrast to a future girl good or bad. The more girls you date seriously I think the harder it is to give your whole heart when you keep chopping off pieces and hand them off a long the way.

Worst of all this guy will now develop slut paranoia when he does want to find a real long term girl and may push her away subconciously from past burns.

This doesn't even go into the aspect of robbing the girl in question of wasting her youth on someone. Girls DTF fast are doing so by choice. Carrying a girl into a relationship with her thinking this could be it is on the player. Women don't have defenses against that it really isn't their choice to see a futute when it isn't there and the guy is telling her she's the only one.

It is the player equivalent of greed.

I definitely see where you're coming from here Trav but I don't think relationships are quite black and white enough to conclude those things. People do actually date just for fun. To spend time with someone over a period that can't be sustained in the long run. Thinking that every relationship that goes beyond casually fucking once in a great while needs to lead up to marriage isn't realistic.

Just like humans have sex just for fun and even developed technology to allow us to have sex without producing offspring, humans will also date and pair-bond just for fun. There are many men and women these days who have no desire to ever marry or have children.

Women will date a man they don't want to be with in the long run either. I wouldn't put the onus on the player to end things he knows aren't going to be "till death do us part" so to speak. Granted different situations require discretion. If you are with a woman you know wants to have a family and you don't then you should of course end things so she can find someone who does, but if you are both on the same page then you should enjoy eachother as long as you both choose to do so.

Just my perspective on it anyway.

[Kamikaze]

(10-28-2016 05:54 PM)John_Galt Wrote:  

I would like to correct a long-standing false assumption.

That is that a woman needs to have a lot of sexual partners (aka a high "notch count") to be good or adventurous in bed.

This is NOT the case.

Yup. In my experience the most notorious carousel riders don't stick with one guy long enough to really understand what sex is about. I've had my fair share of experiences with inadequately trained hoes yanking on my dick like they're trying to rip it out my pelvis and then shove it back in.

I won't go so far as to say 'no hymen, no diamond,' though. A notch # of 2-4 is fine, as long as each came in a serious, serious LTR.

The main idea is that she has to be absolutely repulsed and utterly baffled by the concept of meaningless, one-night-stand sex. If there's even a hint of that, she can never warm my cold, dead heart.

[John_Galt]

(11-03-2016 11:03 AM)Kamikaze Wrote:  

I won't go so far as to say 'no hymen, no diamond,' though. A notch # of 2-4 is fine, as long as each came in a serious, serious LTR.

The main idea is that she has to be absolutely repulsed and utterly baffled by the concept of meaningless, one-night-stand sex. If there's even a hint of that, she can never warm my cold, dead heart.

The problem with your method is that this is pretty easy for a girl to fake. A lot easier to fake than say....having a hymen.

I've also found, in my own experience, that once the "seal" has been broken, so to speak, the guy who did it will ALWAYS be her "great white buffalo", barring some extreme circumstance such as rape.

People can theorize and say it's "insecure" or whatever they want about my choice to not invest in non-virgins. You could also argue that it's "insecure" not to invest in risky investments. Other investors would say that you're just being rational and intelligent on how you invest your capital.

The bottom line is: What are you trying to accomplish, and what's the most effective way to accomplish it?

If all you want is some fucking mixed with cuddling, is a monogamous LTR REALLY the best way to get it? If you're looking for a potential future wife, is the girl who's ridden several cocks before yours REALLY the best option you have?

Sure, for some guys, it might well be. Perhaps they have low SMV and they are just being realistic. Or maybe they're too impatient or lazy to find virgins. That's fine. As long as they know what they're getting into, that's on them.