[Peregrine]

(04-25-2016 09:44 AM)tanner Wrote:  

Quote:

The simple fact of there being an elite doesn't take away from a strong middle class either. That's why they're called the Elite. It's because its just a few inbetween. And there will always be a need for the few inbetween who lead the country in whatever policies it needs.

There are two kinds of elite. Genuine and pseudo. The genuine are a tiny minority and they achieve their status by genuine talent and effort.

Prince for example could be considered an example. Perhaps that is why there is such a big outpouring for his death.

The pseudo elite achieve their status by often means that were not genuine and even unethical.

In the US, the pseudo elite far outnumber the genuine. They bring little value and as a result the middle class declines.

I would switch your labels around. Pseudo elite = not real elite, e.g. Prince. Genuine elite hold actual power and you and I will never be one of them. Which doesn't bother me.

Lion outruns gazelle or it starves, gazelle outruns lion or it gets eaten. There is no fair or not fair. There is or is not.

I'm with samsamsam on this forum being anti-victim mentality and pro-personal responsibility. I succeed or fail on my own efforts and merits, not because of what the elite do or don't do. We can agree that some elites are acting in horrific, even evil ways, but our successes and failures are still on us (and fate). Like getting robbed in a bad neighborhood or raped after getting too drunk at a frat party, it's not your fault (moral) but it is your responsibility (objective).

[trainwreck]

(04-25-2016 10:20 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

I would switch your labels around. Pseudo elite = not real elite, e.g. Prince. Genuine elite hold actual power and you and I will never be one of them. Which doesn't bother me.

Lion outruns gazelle or it starves, gazelle outruns lion or it gets eaten. There is no fair or not fair. There is or is not.

I'm with samsamsam on this forum being anti-victim mentality and pro-personal responsibility. I succeed or fail on my own efforts and merits, not because of what the elite do or don't do. We can agree that some elites are acting in horrific, even evil ways, but our successes and failures are still on us (and fate). Like getting robbed in a bad neighborhood or raped after getting too drunk at a frat party, it's not your fault (moral) but it is your responsibility (objective).

exactly. It's really up to your own work and dedication, especially if you live in the US, to make it to a higher income bracket. Many people like to blame others for their shortcomings, when they are stuck buying overpriced iphones and playing call of duty all evening instead of working on a side hustle.

[porscheguy]

Keep in mind that a lot of people "poor mouth." The minute you mention any trivial expense, their reply is "I/we can't afford that." A couple of new tires for the car? "We can't afford that." Leaky faucet? "Can't afford that." Box of saltine crackers? "Too rich for my blood."

They'll say that shit, and these same people go out to dinner 2 nights/week. Or they'll spend $50-$100/week on beer and cigarettes.

When it comes to money and notch counts, most people are liars.

[samsamsam]

(04-25-2016 01:12 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

Keep in mind that a lot of people "poor mouth." The minute you mention any trivial expense, their reply is "I/we can't afford that." A couple of new tires for the car? "We can't afford that." Leaky faucet? "Can't afford that." Box of saltine crackers? "Too rich for my blood."

They'll say that shit, and these same people go out to dinner 2 nights/week. Or they'll spend $50-$100/week on beer and cigarettes.

When it comes to money and notch counts, most people are liars.

Or they borrow money and instead of paying they are going out to eat lesson learned.

Edit: Here is how I feel on this page of this thread

[samsamsam]

(04-25-2016 09:44 AM)tanner Wrote:  

In the US, the pseudo elite far outnumber the genuine. They bring little value and as a result the middle class declines.

While all this theory may be interesting for discussion, how does this change the issue with the middle class?

Should they fake rich give it all away?

You can't force any of this stuff unless you vote for Bernie and he probably will do a shit load of BAD things that he hasn't told his "give me free shit followers".

Just buckle down and set yourself up for the future.

Not trying to be a dick to you. Just trying to help keep focus on what you can do. Some of this stuff you can't control.

[AneroidOcean]

As of my voting in this poll, I'm happy to see less than 10% of members saying that it would not be problematic to get a hold of $400 for an emergency.

I would love to hear from members for whom this would be a problem. I have been in tough situations before (and am not in a great one now actually), but thankfully I have somewhat of an FU fund gathered up and despite me making a relatively low income at the moment vs. my areas relatively high cost of living, I do have enough money in my wallet alone to sort a $400 emergency out as I keep my cost of living relatively low.

$400 is really not a lot of money nowadays. It's a lot of groceries, but not a lot of genuine emergencies.

[Ingocnito]

People are just fuck-tarded as hell. Their future belief is in what they see. Just like women are herd-thinkers, so are many men (boys really). I have a few friends in mind.

1 lives check to check, and trades in his new car purchase 2 years later for another brand new car, for a total loss (duh). Wants to work on music as he's actually a really good rapper (I know, rap, but still talented with red-pillish lyrics), and now doesn't have the time for anything but work, and he dumped $4k in home studio equipment which will just sit there doing nothing. Yet as soon as he gets a slight promotion, maybe $5-$7k at work, what's he do? Runs out and buys a new car because "I just couldn't stomach the way my car handled.".. translation, identity crisis or something. Christ.

Another friend of mine, well ex-friend now who needs a lesson taught, who just stiffed me on $140 he owes me - which he justified away like a bitch does a debt to a man - brags to me he just cleared almost twice more than he ever has ($180k) in 2015, will certainly decide to start buying toys.. cars, boats, etc.. all $$ drains. Eventually as we all know, the economy will take a downturn, his business will inevitably decrease, when he could have sunk some of that in secure investments. Ghetto rich right now, and already acting like he's gonna spend it.

You ever wonder how it's even possible so many people in your town are all the sudden driving 535 BMWs ? Yea, me too. Their car payments are as high or higher than their rent or mortgage. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. And for what? Ahhhhh. to sit in traffic where you can't remotely begin to enjoy the handling or power of such a fine machine, idling off gasoline that will eventually price-correct as the market matures. Jokes on you fuckers ! All in a nation that's populated beyond repairable rates of infrastructure frequency that our thieving gov't, whcih hasn't spent our tax dollars to repair roads like they promised 8 years ago, will allow to grind to a halt. yup.

People are so fucking blind, they'll prove it with their spending first and foremost. It's hard to believe with the financial insanity the nation's seen in the last 18 years, people are so brazen still with their spending, its really shocking to me.

[Ingocnito]

(04-25-2016 01:52 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 09:44 AM)tanner Wrote:  

In the US, the pseudo elite far outnumber the genuine. They bring little value and as a result the middle class declines.

While all this theory may be interesting for discussion, .........

........Not trying to be a dick to you. Just trying to help keep focus on what you can do. Some of this stuff you can't control.

The pseudoelite are the ones typically stomping on people to get ahead. They're so worried about breaking into the "lower upper class" that they'll sell their morals, and souls to gain a spot ahead of the next guy. I'm always weary of people at the top of the middle class in income. They'll often fuck anyone they can get away with when the economy starts to shit out.

[FireStarter]

If you can't raise $400 for an emergency it's not because the elites are holding you down.

Can you afford

• alcohol?
• tobacco?
• a TV?
• a late model car?
• a smartphone?
  

If you can afford anything on that list but $400 would be hard to acquire, it's got nothing to do with the elites or any other scapegoat you want to blame. It's because you can't budget and have stupid priorities.

[tanner]

(04-26-2016 04:54 AM)FireStarter Wrote:  

If you can't raise $400 for an emergency it's not because the elites are holding you down.

Can you afford

• alcohol?
• tobacco?
• a TV?
• a late model car?
• a smartphone?
  

If you can afford anything on that list but $400 would be hard to acquire, it's got nothing to do with the elites or any other scapegoat you want to blame. It's because you can't budget and have stupid priorities.

More shaming tactics.

The reality is a large portion of society are not able to come up with $400 for an emergency.

Even on this forum, you can see on the poll that almost 10% state they would have difficulty. I think there are a lot more but will not vote bc of the shame involved in doing so.

A lot may well have to do with lack of financial planning skills. But the reality is pseudo elites are the ones who are controlling the wealth -- especially in the US. Psuedo elites are terrified of people having financial knowledge and financial planning skills -- hence they discourage it.

The genuine elite -- a tiny minority now-- are the ones who want people to have financial skills.

Even Warren Buffet recently stated that the wealthy (pseudo elites)need to start paying higher rates of tax.

read it here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...e-in-taxes

Warren Buffet knows well that without a healthy middle class, the whole society eventually disintegrates.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

(04-26-2016 04:54 AM)FireStarter Wrote:  

If you can't raise $400 for an emergency it's not because the elites are holding you down.

Can you afford

• alcohol?
• tobacco?
• a TV?
• a late model car?
• a smartphone?
  

If you can afford anything on that list but $400 would be hard to acquire, it's got nothing to do with the elites or any other scapegoat you want to blame. It's because you can't budget and have stupid priorities.

More shaming tactics.

The reality is a large portion of society are not able to come up with $400 for an emergency.

Even on this forum, you can see on the poll that almost 10% state they would have difficulty. I think there are a lot more but will not vote bc of the shame involved in doing so.

A lot may well have to do with lack of financial planning skills. But the reality is pseudo elites are the ones who are controlling the wealth -- especially in the US. Psuedo elites are terrified of people having financial knowledge and financial planning skills -- hence they discourage it.

The genuine elite -- a tiny minority now-- are the ones who want people to have financial skills.

Even Warren Buffet recently stated that the wealthy need to start paying higher rates of tax.

read it here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...e-in-taxes

Warren Buffet knows well that without a healthy middle class, the whole society eventually disintegrates.

In this argument, I think both sides are correct.

The elites have messed with the labor pool by sending jobs overseas (something not done in the Baby Boomer era), and bringing in low-wage foreign workers. Feminism allowed them to also doubled the labor pool, which reduced everyone's wages. Ever wonder why corporations are so politically correct? This is a big reason. It helps them financially.

But on the other hand, most people don't know basic financial literacy and that should be taught in school. Before college, why did I never take a class that showed me what a stock or a bond was or why savings accounts were important, or anything like that?

Back before the '70s, they also used to have classes called "civics" that apparently taught you the basics about being an American. They removed this class from the curriculum. According to Frank Zappa, this was deliberate. I think the reason financial literacy isn't taught is also deliberate.

Zappa on civics classes:

"One of the things that was taken out of the curriculum was civics. Civics was a class that used to be required before you could graduate from high school. You were taught what was in the U.S. Constitution. And after all the student rebellions in the '60s, civics was banished from the student curriculum and was replaced by something called social studies. Here we live in a country that has a fabulous constitution and all these guarantees, a contract between the citizens and the government – nobody knows what's in it. It's one of the best kept secrets. And so, if you don't know what your rights are, how can you stand up for them? And furthermore, if you don't know what is in that document, how can you care if someone is shredding it?" (Quoted from Signs Of The Times, 1991)

[tanner]

(04-26-2016 06:34 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

(04-26-2016 04:54 AM)FireStarter Wrote:  

If you can't raise $400 for an emergency it's not because the elites are holding you down.

Can you afford

• alcohol?
• tobacco?
• a TV?
• a late model car?
• a smartphone?
  

If you can afford anything on that list but $400 would be hard to acquire, it's got nothing to do with the elites or any other scapegoat you want to blame. It's because you can't budget and have stupid priorities.

More shaming tactics.

The reality is a large portion of society are not able to come up with $400 for an emergency.

Even on this forum, you can see on the poll that almost 10% state they would have difficulty. I think there are a lot more but will not vote bc of the shame involved in doing so.

A lot may well have to do with lack of financial planning skills. But the reality is pseudo elites are the ones who are controlling the wealth -- especially in the US. Psuedo elites are terrified of people having financial knowledge and financial planning skills -- hence they discourage it.

The genuine elite -- a tiny minority now-- are the ones who want people to have financial skills.

Even Warren Buffet recently stated that the wealthy need to start paying higher rates of tax.

read it here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...e-in-taxes

Warren Buffet knows well that without a healthy middle class, the whole society eventually disintegrates.

In this argument, I think both sides are correct.

The elites have messed with the labor pool by sending jobs overseas (something not done in the Baby Boomer era), and bringing in low-wage foreign workers. Feminism allowed them to also doubled the labor pool, which reduced everyone's wages. Ever wonder why corporations are so politically correct? This is a big reason. It helps them financially.

But on the other hand, most people don't know basic financial literacy and that should be taught in school. Before college, why did I never take a class that showed me what a stock or a bond was or why savings accounts were important, or anything like that?

Back before the '70s, they also used to have classes called "civics" that apparently taught you the basics about being an American. They removed this class from the curriculum. According to Frank Zappa, this was deliberate. I think the reason financial literacy isn't taught is also deliberate.

Zappa on civics classes:

"One of the things that was taken out of the curriculum was civics. Civics was a class that used to be required before you could graduate from high school. You were taught what was in the U.S. Constitution. And after all the student rebellions in the '60s, civics was banished from the student curriculum and was replaced by something called social studies. Here we live in a country that has a fabulous constitution and all these guarantees, a contract between the citizens and the government – nobody knows what's in it. It's one of the best kept secrets. And so, if you don't know what your rights are, how can you stand up for them? And furthermore, if you don't know what is in that document, how can you care if someone is shredding it?" (Quoted from Signs Of The Times, 1991)

Absolutely. The US economy is heading for disaster not bc of feminism - but bc pseudo eiltes have taken over. Feminism was just another tool for them -including a host of other things.

American women have never been the problem. It is their behaviours and attitudes (encouraged by the pseudo elites) that are the problem.

Able bodied men are the biggest threat to pseudo elites. Hence feminism was used to shame men in the prime of their potential.

Just a dam fucking fact.

[FireStarter]

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

More shaming tactics.

Whether someone feels shame by reading what I wrote is irrelevant. Is anything I wrote incorrect? Or do you believe that people have a right to luxuries?

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

The reality is a large portion of society are not able to come up with $400 for an emergency.

I'm not arguing against that. But that is not a lot of money. The bar is very low. And these same people who can't find $400 for an emergency can somehow afford their booze, cigarettes and still find the time to watch the latest Two Broke Girls on the TV they should probably sell. (A TV is a luxury, not a necessity)

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

Even on this forum, you can see on the poll that almost 10% state they would have difficulty. I think there are a lot more but will not vote bc of the shame involved in doing so.

It can be tougher to make money than it used to be, but I'm yet to meet a single poor person that doesn't choose to spend their money on things they can't afford.

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

A lot may well have to do with lack of financial planning skills. But the reality is pseudo elites are the ones who are controlling the wealth -- especially in the US. Psuedo elites are terrified of people having financial knowledge and financial planning skills -- hence they discourage it.

The genuine elite -- a tiny minority now-- are the ones who want people to have financial skills.

There is so much free information on the internet, if someone wants to find information on how to manage their money it is incredibly easy. The information is not being hidden, it's just that people would prefer to hear that they deserve that new shiny thing.

Maybe these elites are influencing people to spend more, but they aren't forcing them to. If it makes you feel better to blame elites for holding you back, you can. I'm not saying they haven't made things harder. But taking responsibility for your own situation has so much more power.

[DJ-Matt]

I'm curious if we up the amount what the percentages would be for RVF?

At $1000 I still think the number would be pretty high for YES.

5k?
10k?
15k?
20k?

Right now I could cover up to about $7k for an emergency, but after selling my house I plan to keep all the money made in a savings account for rainy days and a buffer.

[ovloV]

A couple thoughts after reading this thread:
1. I know a lot of poor people, and these guys are not buying new cars every 2 years or rushing out to buy a new Xbox or something. Yea, they have smartphones, because selling a smartphone over 6 months old would get you nothing, and a smartphone is almost a necessity today. It's either smartphone or computer, and one is cheaper than the other by a lot.

2. A lot of people seem to be firmly in the "hardwork makes you rich" camp. This isn't entirely accurate for a number of reasons. Where and when you live will make a huge difference on how much money you can make. It's not a coincidence that 14 of the 74 wealthiest people ever were al born in America within a nine year span. Bill Gates made a shit ton of money, but if he was born 5 years later, the PC is already invented. If he's born 5 years earlier, he's locked into a career at IBM when the technology does come around. I made a lot of money as an engineer in China in the mid 2000s. My same skills and work ethic in the mid 90s wiuld have made me 10 times more money. My same skills now will make me a lot less.

[samsamsam]

(04-26-2016 11:47 AM)ovloV Wrote:  

A couple thoughts after reading this thread:
1. I know a lot of poor people, and these guys are not buying new cars every 2 years or rushing out to buy a new Xbox or something. Yea, they have smartphones, because selling a smartphone over 6 months old would get you nothing, and a smartphone is almost a necessity today. It's either smartphone or computer, and one is cheaper than the other by a lot.

2. A lot of people seem to be firmly in the "hardwork makes you rich" camp. This isn't entirely accurate for a number of reasons. Where and when you live will make a huge difference on how much money you can make. It's not a coincidence that 14 of the 74 wealthiest people ever were al born in America within a nine year span. Bill Gates made a shit ton of money, but if he was born 5 years later, the PC is already invented. If he's born 5 years earlier, he's locked into a career at IBM when the technology does come around. I made a lot of money as an engineer in China in the mid 2000s. My same skills and work ethic in the mid 90s wiuld have made me 10 times more money. My same skills now will make me a lot less.

I am convinced now, I should just stop trying.

Part of being successful is having some determination, some fight, some desire, some ganas. If a person doesn't have that, it is harder to be successful.

But money is made all the time as new stuff is created, etc.

You just can't blame timing. I mean you can, but that robs you of the urge to keep going.

I enjoy theory and discussion, but (this is for everyone reading) don't let any of this discussion let you explain why your life isn't where you want it to be. You gotta keep trying.

BUT LET ME BE CLEAR, TRYING DOESN'T MEAN IT WON'T HURT. IT WILL.

You will experience pain, setbacks, disappointments. This is part of the journey.

[samsamsam]

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

More shaming tactics

Here is some more, you must be fun at parties.

I guess you are just super sensitive.

I found a safe space for you. http://jezebel.com/



Edit: even if we are shaming, think we are gonna stop because you keep whining about it? I have no problem having a constructive discussion but when people start to whine too much, it brings out the aggression. Seriously, is this how you control your friends - by shaming them by saying they are shaming you? Hypocrite.

[Gustavus Adolphus]

@ovloV

Regarding point number 2, yes these Outliers exist due in part to the years they were born and their location. But author Malcolm Gladwell is also pretty convincing in his argument about becoming an expert by putting in 10,000 hours. They also got rich because they dedicated their lives to something and worked very hard at it when no one else was willing to do so until much later.

Edit: not disagreeing with you regarding your last point about your engineering experience. Sometimes people are just in the right place at the right time. I just think that a lot of people really haven't put in enough time or effort in something to know whether they would enjoy the financial benefits.

[Walker]

(04-24-2016 09:04 AM)trainwreck Wrote:  

I sometimes wonder how people on the red pill can hate on the "elites" so much, instead of how figuring out how to become part of it.

Why not both?

Be the best you can be. Climb as high as you can.

And realistically acknowledge that most of the current rich are assholes who don't care about you, who see ambitious and smart up-and-comers as dangerous threats to be hammered down. What's bad for these people is good for you.

[AneroidOcean]

(04-26-2016 06:20 AM)tanner Wrote:  

(04-26-2016 04:54 AM)FireStarter Wrote:  

If you can't raise $400 for an emergency it's not because the elites are holding you down.

Can you afford

• alcohol?
• tobacco?
• a TV?
• a late model car?
• a smartphone?
  

If you can afford anything on that list but $400 would be hard to acquire, it's got nothing to do with the elites or any other scapegoat you want to blame. It's because you can't budget and have stupid priorities.

More shaming tactics.

All the examples he gave are luxuries. Perhaps you can nitpick on one or two of them, but the best example is a late model car. If you bought a late model car and can't come up with what amounts to essentially an extra car payment in an emergency, then you've made a horrible financial mistake in owning a late model car.

It's not shaming to point out complete fiscal irresponsibility. It's not reasonable to be that fiscally irresponsible. The fact that the elites have made it harder only makes it an even less responsible decision.

Get out of here with your ridiculous assertions.

[samsamsam]

(04-26-2016 02:45 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  

Get out of here with your ridiculous assertions.

I think you forgot this part - just trying to help

[Samseau]

Tanner: Of course elites share most of the blame. But Firestarter's point is that there are genuine fuckups who couldn't manage their money if their life depended on it.

[Only One Man]

Blaming the elites for the average American not being able to come up with $400 in an emergency is essentially the same thing as blaming the elites for the fact that the average American is overweight and more than a third are obese.

Yes they get the taxpayer to subsidize the shit out of high fructose corn syrup and they put fucked up chemicals in tons of our food. That is a big reason why so many people are overweight and obese. But the elites can't force you (yet) to eat their toxic food and they can't force anyone to watch the American average of five hours of TV per day.

People always use the "not enough time" excuse for why they don't work out and it's obviously bullshit. You're just fucking lazy and don't want to go. Same with not having $400 set aside somewhere. Obviously there are going to be exceptions, like unexpected medical bills, a death or something similar that financially sucks a person completely dry. And I definitely blame the elites for basically stealing peoples' retirements and 401Ks or anything where they're directly responsible for regular people losing all their money. Aside from that, the large majority of people who couldn't come up with $400 simply live above their means.

[ovloV]

(04-26-2016 12:20 PM)Gustavus Adolphus Wrote:  

@ovloV

Regarding point number 2, yes these Outliers exist due in part to the years they were born and their location. But author Malcolm Gladwell is also pretty convincing in his argument about becoming an expert by putting in 10,000 hours. They also got rich because they dedicated their lives to something and worked very hard at it when no one else was willing to do so until much later.

Edit: not disagreeing with you regarding your last point about your engineering experience. Sometimes people are just in the right place at the right time. I just think that a lot of people really haven't put in enough time or effort in something to know whether they would enjoy the financial benefits.

While I think the 10k hour rule is pretty spot on, that's a shit ton of hours, and Gladwell even mentions in his book that being able to accumulate that many hours at something useful is, in and of itself, really hard and depends a lot on luck. Let's look at it this way, 10 k hours is 5 years of working 40 hours a week for 50 weeks. What if you already have a full time job? What if you work at CVS stocking shelves for 8.00 an hour? Is that guy supposed to just "work harder" and learn how to program or something? He can't go back to school because he lives paycheck to paycheck. His parents are as broke as he is, so he can't stay with them for free.

I worked really hard in school and got great grades, but I would be delusional to say that my parents making so much money that I didn't need to work during my entire undergrad wasn't an absurdly huge advantage over a lot of people. Or that I got my first internship from a friend of my folks because they knew the right people.

[Gorgiass]

Thought we already had a Bernie Sanders thread. I heard this author interviewed on NPR the other week and my first thought was how terrible he must be with money. Skimming the article is one bad decision after another - confirmed. It's not the elite's fault, it's his fault for being a sucker and buying the American dream sold to him by marketers rather than living his own. Emptying a 401k to pay for a wedding...fuck, man!

One of the most important, and somewhat obvious, financial realizations I came to early is that interest earned and paid are the same thing. If you run a balance on a credit card with 15% interest and keep any balance in the bank or investments, you'd need to earn 15% on that balance to break even on the credit card. If you need to run a balance to purchase something ask yourself if it is going to return you 15%... If it is, I want in on that deal.

My public school taught us how to balance a checkbook in 7th grade, and we had economics classes in high school, but so much of finance is just basic addition and subtraction anyway...and common sense. Shortsighted people with poor impulse control are unable to weigh the instantaneous hit of pleasure they get when they spend money against the dull ache of discomfort they get when it comes time to pay the bills.

If his daughters took a year or two off to work they might gain eligibility for financial aid as his income wouldn't be counted against them after a period of time, and some valuable life experience. Maybe his one daughter would even have entered a profession where she could foot the bill for his nursing home someday if she had to learn cause and effect before joining the ranks of the sheltered.

Regarding "Outliers" and the 10k hours, this is to be a master at something. You don't need to be a master to make good money at something, you don't need to be a master by the time you're 22 or even 40. I also think that overspecialization is overrated. Many big breakthroughs come from people who know just enough about many different subjects and can merge applicable ideas between their talents.