[rudebwoy]

^^ So out of 100 approaches there was no conversions, except for 3 dates with Asian women.

I am trying to be nice, but "every" woman is open to being approached from the "right" guy. The same guys I told you about in London, have elephant thick skin and will plow through harsh rejections like nothing. What they don't do is blame the women, to be honest I don't even hear them talk about UK women.

I know from your first post, the problem is you. You are 41, so I am not sure what you have been doing before. Were you married for a long time?

[262]

(02-26-2016 08:10 AM)zatara Wrote:  

One of my more important nightlife-game-life-lessons was going to bars full of 30-35 year old women with mates. I never would have believed it before but its amazing how annoying having random women constantly trying to hit on you quickly becomes. You very quickly start completely shutting down any women who aren't either a) very attractive or else b) extremely witty with their opener.

I'd recommend the experience to any guy in their 20s, it really changes the way you view approaching women. If I had 20-30 women approaching me every night I went out, 90% of whom were either stupid/ugly/too drunk, I'd very quickly develop a resting bitch face too.

How many of you guys do think your average Western woman would fathom the below?

Quote:

One of my more important nightlife-game-life-lessons was going to bars full of high value men with my gals. I never would have believed it before but its amazing how annoying getting multiple rejections from high value men quickly becomes. You very quickly start seeing any man who rejects you as either a) shallow or b) stupid.

I'd recommend the experience to any girl in their 20s, it really changes the way you view guys approaching us. If I took 20-30 rejections every night I went out, 90% of which I felt I was entitled to not be a rejection, I'd very quickly develop a sincere hatred for women too.

[Feldeinsamkeit]

(02-26-2016 12:44 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^^ So out of 100 approaches there was no conversions, except for 3 dates with Asian women.

I am trying to be nice, but "every" woman is open to being approached from the "right" guy. The same guys I told you about in London, have elephant thick skin and will plow through harsh rejections like nothing. What they don't do is blame the women, to be honest I don't even hear them talk about UK women.

I know from your first post, the problem is you. You are 41, so I am not sure what you have been doing before. Were you married for a long time?

I was in a LTR with a German woman for 10+ years, living in Germany, until late 2013. I must admit, returning to the UK dating market was something of a shock to the system. I had an idea that it wouldn't be easy to find my feet again here with regards to women, but I honestly underestimated the degree to which I would find myself locked out of the dating market here.

I'm not sure I agree, Rudebwoy, that I blame the women themselves, so much as simply do not understand their response. As I tried to make clear in my last post, the problem I now face after doing the approaches is to work out where I have been going wrong. I was wondering whether a more direct as opposed to indirect approach would have worked better, et.c. I've been told by some that I come across as "too posh" and am wondering whether this is perhaps cramping my style in an area where there the women are generally anything but. I honestly don't know anymore, but I do know that I can get dates from even slim, good-looking and younger foreign women but not the local variety.

[rudebwoy]

^Ok so now I get a better understanding. I am by no means an expert, but being out of the dating scene for 10 years and coming back to it will be a shock to the system.

Simply scroll down the threads in the game section and you will see the issues many are facing. A lot of guys are simply asking how to respond to girls during text messages, some have more complex situations.

The point is that boils down to a numbers game, you will go mad if you try and analyze what is wrong with women. It is easier to fix yourself. If people are saying you come across as a bit "posh" then I can only imagine that will hinder you living in Teeside. So you either change your look or you move to a posher place. But if you don't have money then I suggest you change your look.
The forum has a whole bunch of self-improvement ideas to help you as a man.

The dating market is so poor in the Angloshphere, I don't get excited about girls unless they are sitting on my bed and ready to fuck.

[samsamsam]

(02-25-2016 04:28 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(02-25-2016 03:58 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

A healthy cycle includes phases of theory/analysis and also of action. If you really believe that you worked on yourself as much as possible, and understand the local women as much as possible, and have hit a ceiling because of something (mostly) out of your control, there's no shame in dusting off your feet and looking for greener pastures.

The rub is of course the "if you really believe" part.

That's a good point you raise, TooFineAPoint. Part of what has held me back in acting on my - admittedly rather pessimistic - analysis of the UK SMP is my belief that there are still avenues that can explored/issues that can be worked on, such that it might materially affect the outcome, such as dress, physique, posture, inner game, et.c. As for the ceiling of which you speak, it resides mostly in my inability to click with the vast majority of women in my locality, centred primarily around the issue of the women here being generally vapid in terms of their lacking interests that I can relate to (especially intellectual), but also deriving from the increasingly self-absorbed and narcissistic tendencies that women here increasingly exhibit.

tl;dr - don't seek women for intellectual discussions, don't overanalyze, OP seems highly analytical so he isn't being defensive in his mind more that the back forth is logical, OP may be better off posting more about his approaches and seeking feedback, probably not the greatest use of energy trying to overanalyze since it doesn't change how women will behave.

Just commenting on the intellectual part. I forgot who or maybe it was many guys on RVF mentioned that you don't seek women for deep intrllectual conversation. You seek out guys to have deep talks abut stuff. Even this thread, which has gone back and forth, has some thinking in it. You generally don't get that from women. Even a couple of women who I actually respect and value as friends, who can engage in a good conversation, will still sometimes just refuse a logical thought.

I have had problems with women for the same thing. After you bang them, then what? Over the last few years I have just pursued my work and other interests and banged an occasional new girl that was willing to work around what I was doing. I didn't make an active effort but now I am trying to take it more seriously since I do want to have a family.

I consider myself analytical but somehow have the ability to see both sides, a real random combination of analysis and understanding but enough about me. Not every person enjoys it for the sake of the experience, the analysis like an analytical person does. But don't let the fun of speculating and theorizing get in the way or make an excuse for not taking action. Regardless if your analysis is correct or not, the market is what it is. If you want it (whatever it is be it money or pussy etc) you have to be willing to pay the price to get it. Maybe you are unwilling to pay the price of rejection (by not going for the number) or while you are talking to a woman you are thinking "what a bag of rocks". Whatever it is, maybe your desire for approaching is being held back by some other thoughts. Thus turning it into some theoretical discussion helps the ego minimize the lack of success.

While my advice I am about to offer seems simple and often the standard RVF answer it makes sense. Be the best man you can be (tons of threads and different aspects to do this), approach, don't take it personal and it is a numbers game. I know the last point ties to the point before it. So no need to analyze my redundancy

Keep mind you are getting feedback from all different perspectives. Some guys who can't see your perspective, some who can and some who can see both sides. This next comment isn't to try to make you feel better or insult the guys who have been good enough to post on your thread. But we are all good and bad at different things. I have met a lot of accomplished people in different aspects of their lives. But they were also trainwrecks in certain parts - now they may not admit it or not see it but the damage was evident to everyone around them. I am sure you could teach people in RVF something about something. But you are discussing meeting chicks and ultimately slipping them the hot beef injection. The more experienced guys (on this topic and not me) are telling you overthinking it doesn't help. So I would take that to heart.

As I mentioned earlier, I appreciate thoughtful discussions and analysis, but do something. And you have through approaching. Maybe time would be better spent breaking down your approaches and asking some of the fine gentlemen of RVF help you with that.

Maybe some of the analysis has created or escalated some fear which may be irrational. What I mean by that is analytical people generally see the entire playing field which causes them to see potential obstacles. By seeing the potential obstacles, you may discount yourself before even trying. You may want to know if you have won before you have played the game. And because dating is a personal thing instead of a business transaction (or something with less attachment) the fear may get amplified.

For the guys responding, my experience of the OP is that he is trying to date. From other people's perspective he may be overanalyzing it, but this is normal for him. Also, if he is as analytical as I think it means every point will have a counter point. Just the way it is. They don't consider it defensive, just logical. It isn't meant to be dismissive to the OP, it just means for those engaging I wouldn't get upset or escalate the tone unnecessarily. Just how the world is seen by them. And remember we all interpret information through our perspective/filters. Someone mentioned that the OP had, I think something along an arrogant tone or something. Personally, I didn't see it that way. Same data, different interpretations. And ultimately, if it gets too frustrating just stop posting on the thread. But sometimes what we think is so obvious isn't to another person and in our frustration we want to smash the point into them. I have been guilty of that myself - "Don't you know you are a fucking idiot!" .

Best of luck OP.

[Thoroughbred]

As an aside to the finer points of op's game and situation and back on the thoughts raised in the original post:

Whatever causal external factors are present in the field, a man has no business bringing a high level of thirst to an interaction with a women.

You might be 6 months deep and toey as a Roman sandal, it's never her problem what your internal state is, much as the reverse applies.

She might really like you, but the energetic buy in that is being forced on her by that level of need is to tall an order, and I don't blame her for shutting it down.

[zatara]

(02-26-2016 01:49 PM)262 Wrote:  

How many of you guys do think your average Western woman would fathom the below?

Edit: oh oops, just noticed your second quote was different sorry - hungover reading skills are lacking! Yeah, I think if women constantly got rejected the way men do you'd have a lot more bitter, angry, lonely women. As it is only a tiny minority of women have to deal with this (the 1/2/3s say, on a 10pt scale). But my experience has been that those women tend to be the most vocal and angry feminists/man-haters, so it completely makes sense. They're a less common, but pretty much mirror image of the very angry fat nerdy guys who get no love.

My main take-away from those 'cougar bar' experiences was it really makes you re-assess your own openers with women. You realise that if you're average looking you need to have a relatively unique way of opening to make yourself stand-out from the crowd of thirsty drunk guys doing similar.

[ChickenLover9T9]

Some really intelligent and insightful replies on this thread. For what is ultimately an internet forum, where you can bank on trolls and general idiots making regular appearances, it's really a privilege to read the thoughts of men who are either inherently very intelligent and therefore excellent in theory at least, or men who have consistently been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Whatever the case I agree with these responses to the OP. I understand that the UK SMP is terrible and is only getting worse. Since the advent of online dating, social media and just internet-ready smartphones in general, the "shift" that has occurred in the past 10 years alone has been nothing short of massive. The net effect of the internet for men is complex, because we may have access to self-improvement resources such as this forum, but we are at the same time faced by the negative impact the improving technology has had on the SMP. The net effect of this technology over the past 10 years has led to declining average results in cold approach even with all the information we have at our disposal. There is no dispute from me about the terrible state of the SMP in the UK in general.

Unfortunately I see no solution in the near team and I only see it getting worse. The reason why most UK men celebrate new sex like winning the lottery is because sex with a remotely cute girl is rare for most UK men, even for those who have a lot going for them. London may be a horrible, smelly metropolis but it at least has big numbers in your favor. You go to second and third tier cities or towns and you are suddenly struck by the fact that even slightly cute, let alone pretty, let alone steaming hot girls are very scarce indeed. Every man who chooses to participate in the SMP is therefore competing directly or indirectly for these comparatively rare women. It is no surprise therefore that it has gotten to the point where even participation in such lopsided SMP is just not worth it for many men. The "sexodus" article is a very real phenomenon. There have always been recluses and shut-ins, but these tended to be the most odd, "omega" men. Now there are relatively normal men removing themselves from the SMP just because it involves 100x more effort than what they get out of it. Many UK men are willing to accept soft-cuckoldry with a fat middle-aged woman just to satisfy their physical urges for basic mental health, while many other men are understandably unwilling to work their asses off day in day out just for sexual access to a horrible fat single mother. Even if you have a cute single mother, after you get tired of sex with her it's a terrible long-term proposition.

Again no argument from me against the terrible state of the UK SMP and that it is only going to get worse.

Where I and others in this thread diverge from the OP I think is in the best way in which to respond to such a poor situation. I empathize with the OP quite a lot, and I know how difficult it can be in such a poor SMP. But there comes a time when you have to hold your hands up and admit and accept your inability to squeeze anything of value out of the current SMP, and instead, you should work towards being able to live in better SMP, either EE or SEA, at least part-time. Job opportunities are much poorer in the north than in London, say, so it would maybe be worth moving to a city where you could accumulate substantial savings. This would involve you being very frugal, living in a shared house most probably, almost like many EE workers save a lot of money to send back home; they live in big cities but minimize expenses, even if that means living on the breadline. The great thing about "UK money" if you can save it is that overall living costs in some great EE cities are 1/3 of those of the UK, and even with that you can achieve a higher standard of living than in the UK. This is especially apparent where rent, your biggest expense, in London is so astronomical that you'd be amazed what you could get in, say, Belgrade or Budapest by comparison. You can eat like a king for very low prices. Local smoked meats, ready to eat, in Poland are especially delicious. Fresh fruit and vegetables on markets are of excellent quality and very low priced. Train travel in the UK is ridiculously priced. In EE prices can be as low as 10% (yes 90% off) for similar distances traveled.

You can sit here complaining as much as you want. Heck you can even be 100% correct. But what you cannot do is change the SMP with your own bare hands. Part of being a mature man is the old cliche, knowing when to fight and knowing when to "run". Instead of directing your energy to endless analysis of the UK, which will just depress you further into inaction, start making concrete plans as to how to escape. Make the call man. There's no shame in admitting the SMP in the UK is both too difficult and just plain shit even if you could routinely get access to women here. Whenever I have gotten a "success" with a UK woman, I am still not happy because the quality is poor. Even if she's physically attractive I find most of their personalities to be empty and just plain unpleasant or annoying even if they are well intentioned.

Pre-migrant crisis Berlin, pre-migrant crisis Paris, Marseille, Lyon, all of which I have resided in for varying times, mostly for my work, accidentally informed me that even here, in "western" countries, the SMP was significantly better than in the UK. I reckon the USA is so vast that you could find some OK niches if you look hard enough, but the only candidate for worse than UK I have heard of is AU. These countries are best to make money in but worst in terms of women and ways to spend that money. People just end up slaves and consumers to corporations and live empty lives as unquestioning zombies. You're going to doom yourself if you continue living in the UK because you are not god, you cannot change the SMP. So focus on what you can change: your bank balance and the SMP you choose to participate in. Make a plan to get more money. Pick a few cities in EE and try them for about a month each. See what results you get until you find one you could see yourself settling down in. Or just hop from country to country. It's almost like an abstract version of self-harm to know your country is toxic to you and to simply remain there. Every time you complain about the UK, it's like you're flogging yourself. If you don't change soon it will devour your soul.

[Foolsgo1d]

London isn't like the other cities in the UK. The sheer amount of women there and venues to meet is out of this world. Foreigners are unlike the British girls so you should have an easier time and you can easily spot the difference between a ignorant Brit and a foreign girl.

Why work harder than you should for a Brit when there is foreign tail to get?

[cosworth]

If you're 41 and living in the north east then it's gonna be tough . All the good looking girls seem to get taken at school ! No one gives a shit about your job as everyone seems to work at Nissan or the child benefit office. Looks matter a lot more in N.E than other city's like London. Maybe start hitting the gym hard !
Online dating might be your best bet , use macros to speed things up.
You could try running SA game (for easy dates and quick bangs) , but you'll at the very least need the appearance of wealth , fake it until you make it and all that.

[Que enspastic]

English girls are dogshit. Get to London and problem solved , you will hardly meet any again and those that you do meet will have to compete.

Your problem is shaping your life so you can afford London, not an easy task. Essentially, how to become a financial elite which will put you in a position to reap the rewards

What's your plan ?

[JWLZG]

(02-27-2016 07:36 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

English girls are dogshit. Get to London and problem solved , you will hardly meet any again and those that you do meet will have to compete.

Your problem is shaping your life so you can afford London, not an easy task. Essentially, how to become a financial elite which will put you in a position to reap the rewards

What's your plan ?

And as if anyone needed to piss on his cornflakes any further, at his age of 41, he'll be competing with a revolving door of mid-20s masters grads killing it in finance.
Their résumés will include ex-army officers, semi-professional rugby footballers, Oxbridge/Ivy League/Eton grads, startup founders...you got the idea.

And that's a ballpark figure in a city where your big-city ho's options include wannabe DJ's, Chelsea footballers all the way up to Russian/Arab/Chinese oligarchs.

A friend I stayed with there, having browsed Tinder, reckoned that London wasn't a city -- it was a club of 8.5 million investment bankers.

Probably not an impossible feat -- I'm sure dudes that were lesser-circumstanced than Feldeinsamkeit have tried and made it -- but a pretty damn steep one.

[ChickenLover9T9]

You're not wrong there JW. I forgot to mention the other downside of London being the competition. Wealthy individuals have already caused property prices to skyrocket, pricing most normal people out of the city. High status men of various kinds are your competition for the hot women in London.

It's just a tough situation. If you moved to London with the goal of saving up some significant cash, you would not be able to afford your own private apartment in the city. Even a room in a decent shared house would eat into your income heavily. You would have to work long hours. On top of that if you want to get at the foreign women in London you would have to be approaching in large numbers. It's not fully a numbers game, but with the stiff competition in the city, you would have to approach huge amounts of women because even with good "game" there's a limit to what you can do if a girl is being chased by footballers or oligarchs. Foreign girls who are fresh in town and haven't yet had the experience of intense UK male thirst and the consequent increase in self-importance would be your best bet. But it's damn tough. Jobs in now deprived areas of the UK used to be for life: mining and manufacturing were big businesses that employed generations of the same family. Now UK industry is concentrated in the financial and services sector. Former northern powerhouses (e.g. of steel) are now ghost towns with high unemployment. Unless you are qualified in a profession where there will always be demand (medicine, law etc.) then there is no such thing as a "job for life" anymore. The average graduate is lucky to get a steady job for a year or two let alone for decades. There is weakness in the economy that the government is covering up but it is clear for anyone who has lived in the UK to see. Living costs (especially property) compared to income are still skyhigh in the UK - for the jobs that remain, salaries have not kept up with rising prices, not even close. People in the UK are effectively taking huge paycuts compared to previous generations. So in order for the OP to save a lot of money, he would have to not only work extremely hard, but also come up with a savagely strict budget. Most people living and working in London, who are not investment bankers or lawyers or football players, are stuck between a rock and a hard place: there may be jobs but their salaries are wiped out by living costs. Their net pay after taxes and living expenses is pretty much nothing. A lot of people even go into debt to continue living in London.

It's a lot to ask of the OP to somehow prevail financially against the odds and also compete in cold approach with the many high rollers in London.

My personal opinion is that any move to a southern city with better job prospects should be for the sake of becoming at least partially location independent, if only for a few years, before you run out of money again. Sort of like mini retirements between periods of working hard. You can then go to EE/SEA/SA and concentrate on women and having a good time.

[rudebwoy]

^ The average guy in London, isn't rubbing shoulders with oligarchs, rich arabs or football players. Those guys run in their own circles, usually hard to get into clubs on Regent St and exclusive spots in Knightsbridge.

The guys I know that do well are probably the other end of the spectrum, they aren't young and they are not certainly rich. They are aggressive and like I stated before, they have thick skin.

The great thing is that London has alot of people, there is something for everyone.

I assume the OP speaks german, having spent 10 years in Germany. That alone should be able to land you a job.

[Off The Reservation]

I don't claim to be eloquent or nice, but I mean no offence by my observations here.

(02-18-2016 06:37 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

In particular, I would like to draw attention to the phenomenon whereby British women will behave fundamentally differently towards different types of men - both of whom still strangers to her - depending solely upon his perceived SMV relative to her own.

OP you have just validated the entire idea of SMV. To say otherwise would be to deny that SMV exists.

I've started to get a small, but regular percentage of even good-looking girls, some of whom 15 years younger, checking me out.

The purpose of game is not to get checked out. It is for you to win your way with women. Being passively noticed is hardly different from being ignored if your results are the same.

Anyway, to return to the point about the transactional nature of women, it struck me after these changes occurred how women in the Anglosphere tightly control access to every aspect of their interactions with men and that the degree of access a man is afforded

I have rarely hear men talk like this statement. "The degree of access I am afforded..."

I normally hear men say " I go for what I want and if I fail I go again." The passive nature of what you are "afforded" will get you jack shit in life.


women here are exceedingly judgemental in deciding very early on in an interaction with a man whether they are willing to give him the time of day, often times even before the man has had a chance to open his mouth, judging this on the basis of his appearance alone.

What your writing does not suggest is that you accept this as reality. You seem more wanting to change the way the interaction works than make yourself judged better / OR / you don't have the confidence to demonstrate to women that you don't care how you are judged. Somehow, you are sending a very strong LMV signal that is read loud and clear.

validation, social proofing, resources, et.c.
Stupid buzzword overload, I need a break...

a woman won't make an automatic snap judgement about a guy simply based upon his appearance and that she will give the guy the time of day to at least get to know him before coming to any decision as to whether she wants to see him again or not.

You need to embrace this snap judgment. Again you are trying to complain about the weather instead of getting out your raincoat.


calibrating her behaviour to either aversive/dismissive "yes"/"no" answers and a quick run for the exits or, if he gives her the tingles, to remain in his presence and signal modest interest for him to pursue the interaction further with her, as is the standard template for Anglo women.

You have read a lot of game keywords yet internalized nothing. You have a gamo-sphere explanation of the phenomenon but a total rejection of game concepts. Used to be called game denial.

Put another way, a UK woman's decision to even enter into a conversation with a man is - in her's eyes - already a privilege that she confers on him as a reward for him giving her the gingles. It is in this sense that women from the Anglosphere are markedly different and much more conceitedly mercenary - or transactional, if you care for that term - than women from, say, continental Europe, who don't regard the initial stages of getting to know a man as any kind of payment or reward for a man expressing an initial interest in her. By way of an example, I once spoke with an American woman over Skype that I became aquainted with via an online dating site and one of the first things she said to me was, "I don't normally confer a Skype call on a guy that I've met over the internet, preferring that he meet me in person". Her choice of the word "confer" in this context, along with her generally self-absorbed and entitled manner, was telling in this regard and exemplifies the phenomenon under discussion.

That has to be the lamest example I have ever heard to continue whining, a single vocabulary used by a long distance online chat from an online dating. What a useless piece of information.

Thus, an interaction between a man and a woman in the Anglosphere is always a binary proposition

Only for you, because you are the one who has the massive stop/go complex with each woman that is read so strongly they chose not to continue with you.

One of the things that has crossed my mind is how this phenomenon of transactionality of Anglowomen may be responsible in no small part for the record levels of thirst in the Anglosphere.

Game is not about black and white dismissal of whole countries or regions, nor is it about focusing on the unsuccessful losers of a particular country, except in cases to point out how to improve. Your whole dismiss the Anglosphere is quite frankly ridiculous. You mean to tell me that all those English sluts, rocker girls, average but sexy fuck crazed women, chain smoking little whores, society freaks, world traveling and fucking on every stop women are all responsible for "thirst?" I can assure you they are fucking, they just aren't fucking you.

By refusing to even allow an average guy from making contact with a woman - through her virtual burka of aversive glances and other tactics involving not seldom the deployment of her iPhone as a deflection shield to signal disinterest at the earliest stages of any possible encounter

weak game defences

men immediately judged to be of lower SMV-status are not given the chance to demonstrate any worth to the woman in other ways

What are you expecting. "Hi, I have no game, low smv, no money, no personality but pleeeeeease you little lovely princess if i could just show you my stamp collection you would know how interesting i really am."

the creation of bottleneck thirst traps such as online dating websites and the explosion in female attention whoring platforms otherwise known as social media, where women collect beta orbiter adulation like monarchs soaking up the sycophantic adulation from those seeking their favour.

That was actually painful to read. You talk about a societal phenomenon rather than yourself. If England is that bad, go back to Germany. If you stay your attitude will continue to prevent you from getting whatever it is you want.

[Feldeinsamkeit]

(02-29-2016 01:11 AM)offthereservation Wrote:  

I don't claim to be eloquent or nice, but I mean no offence by my observations here.

(02-18-2016 06:37 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

In particular, I would like to draw attention to the phenomenon whereby British women will behave fundamentally differently towards different types of men - both of whom still strangers to her - depending solely upon his perceived SMV relative to her own.

OP you have just validated the entire idea of SMV. To say otherwise would be to deny that SMV exists.

I've started to get a small, but regular percentage of even good-looking girls, some of whom 15 years younger, checking me out.

The purpose of game is not to get checked out. It is for you to win your way with women. Being passively noticed is hardly different from being ignored if your results are the same.

Anyway, to return to the point about the transactional nature of women, it struck me after these changes occurred how women in the Anglosphere tightly control access to every aspect of their interactions with men and that the degree of access a man is afforded

I have rarely hear men talk like this statement. "The degree of access I am afforded..."

I normally hear men say " I go for what I want and if I fail I go again." The passive nature of what you are "afforded" will get you jack shit in life.


women here are exceedingly judgemental in deciding very early on in an interaction with a man whether they are willing to give him the time of day, often times even before the man has had a chance to open his mouth, judging this on the basis of his appearance alone.

What your writing does not suggest is that you accept this as reality. You seem more wanting to change the way the interaction works than make yourself judged better / OR / you don't have the confidence to demonstrate to women that you don't care how you are judged. Somehow, you are sending a very strong LMV signal that is read loud and clear.

validation, social proofing, resources, et.c.
Stupid buzzword overload, I need a break...

a woman won't make an automatic snap judgement about a guy simply based upon his appearance and that she will give the guy the time of day to at least get to know him before coming to any decision as to whether she wants to see him again or not.

You need to embrace this snap judgment. Again you are trying to complain about the weather instead of getting out your raincoat.


calibrating her behaviour to either aversive/dismissive "yes"/"no" answers and a quick run for the exits or, if he gives her the tingles, to remain in his presence and signal modest interest for him to pursue the interaction further with her, as is the standard template for Anglo women.

You have read a lot of game keywords yet internalized nothing. You have a gamo-sphere explanation of the phenomenon but a total rejection of game concepts. Used to be called game denial.

Put another way, a UK woman's decision to even enter into a conversation with a man is - in her's eyes - already a privilege that she confers on him as a reward for him giving her the gingles. It is in this sense that women from the Anglosphere are markedly different and much more conceitedly mercenary - or transactional, if you care for that term - than women from, say, continental Europe, who don't regard the initial stages of getting to know a man as any kind of payment or reward for a man expressing an initial interest in her. By way of an example, I once spoke with an American woman over Skype that I became aquainted with via an online dating site and one of the first things she said to me was, "I don't normally confer a Skype call on a guy that I've met over the internet, preferring that he meet me in person". Her choice of the word "confer" in this context, along with her generally self-absorbed and entitled manner, was telling in this regard and exemplifies the phenomenon under discussion.

That has to be the lamest example I have ever heard to continue whining, a single vocabulary used by a long distance online chat from an online dating. What a useless piece of information.

Thus, an interaction between a man and a woman in the Anglosphere is always a binary proposition

Only for you, because you are the one who has the massive stop/go complex with each woman that is read so strongly they chose not to continue with you.

One of the things that has crossed my mind is how this phenomenon of transactionality of Anglowomen may be responsible in no small part for the record levels of thirst in the Anglosphere.

Game is not about black and white dismissal of whole countries or regions, nor is it about focusing on the unsuccessful losers of a particular country, except in cases to point out how to improve. Your whole dismiss the Anglosphere is quite frankly ridiculous. You mean to tell me that all those English sluts, rocker girls, average but sexy fuck crazed women, chain smoking little whores, society freaks, world traveling and fucking on every stop women are all responsible for "thirst?" I can assure you they are fucking, they just aren't fucking you.

By refusing to even allow an average guy from making contact with a woman - through her virtual burka of aversive glances and other tactics involving not seldom the deployment of her iPhone as a deflection shield to signal disinterest at the earliest stages of any possible encounter

weak game defences

men immediately judged to be of lower SMV-status are not given the chance to demonstrate any worth to the woman in other ways

What are you expecting. "Hi, I have no game, low smv, no money, no personality but pleeeeeease you little lovely princess if i could just show you my stamp collection you would know how interesting i really am."

the creation of bottleneck thirst traps such as online dating websites and the explosion in female attention whoring platforms otherwise known as social media, where women collect beta orbiter adulation like monarchs soaking up the sycophantic adulation from those seeking their favour.

That was actually painful to read. You talk about a societal phenomenon rather than yourself. If England is that bad, go back to Germany. If you stay your attitude will continue to prevent you from getting whatever it is you want.

Well, there's a lot of misconceptions there in your posts, which I'm not going to correct one by one, since I've already done that in other posts commenting on the OP. But I would like to make on thing clear: I don't have the difficulties I describe with non-Anglo women at all. For example, I number closed a very cute Asian student on Saturday in a bookstore without any difficulties and the interaction only reinforced the validity of the observations in my OP: The absence of any haughty conceit, no paranoid bitch shield defences, no shit testing, et.c. If, as some on this thread and elsewhere have suggested, it is my personality/lack of game that is the issue - which, of course, is entirely possible - then why is it that I don't have the difficulties I describe with women from outside the Anglosphere, even with women from other Western European nations?

Also, why is it that there is so much attention given by guys like Roosh to the merits of looking overseas for women if, as you so smugly assert, any difficulties a guy encounters in the Anglosphere must be wholly attributable to his not being unsuitably dressed for the weather of the SMP there? Or, to approach this from another angle, take Roosh's recent article asking whether night game is essentially dead in the Anglosphere. Couldn't you also take an equally uncharitable and dismissive view of his "whinings" in that article and simply accuse him of not being up to snuff as far as what's needed these days? What you seem to be arguing for in your critique of my OP is that a SMP can never reach a point whereby average guys simply get shut out and that it is in principle always possible to get laid in any SMP, it's simply a question of the degree to which one needs to tighten one's game in order to succeed. Is this what you are saying?

I admire the optimism of this view, but I think I'm taking a more realistic view, i.e. a view better supported by the facts of most men's experiences, when I claim that this is an assumption that is becoming ever less warranted with every passing day in the Anglosphere. Does this make me a plain vanilla, stamp-collecting game denialist as you allege? Hardly, since I've already profited from applying the principles of game, just not from local UK women.

[ChickenLover9T9]

OTR makes some good points. It's tough love but a lot of what he says is true. It's true that british slags are having sex a lot and if you catch certain ones at the right time they are some of the easiest girls around. But even if they're hot it's really not a pleasant experience to spend even just an hour trying to pull her. The personalities of this type of girl are like scraping nails down a blackboard.

It's also true that there can be some good quality girls found in the UK, usually found in the day. Surface level indicators are nowhere near 100% reliable but if you filter by what type of girl she looks like, you can find some decent british girls.

From my own experience I've met very polite and receptive, good quality british girls from day approaches, but I've also had my fair share of attitude as well. As the quality of british girls has gone down in the last decade, it comes to a point where for me it's not worth it to approach in the UK, I just go abroad. At the same time, when I am in the UK and encounter a nice girl from time to time, I don't even bother because even though she seems good quality for a british girl, it's not the same when you have come back from Budapest and had what you've had and seen what you have seen there. Add to this you have many board members and leading figures in the "manosphere" repeating the poor quality of anglo women and it sort of leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy. A big part of it is true, I admit that, but in our negative attitudes to british women we could be turning them off or if we don't turn them off we still don't even bother because "all anglo women are inferior".

OP I know eye contact is a metric a lot of men use but stop looking out for it, even if your intention is to use it for purposes of gathering data. This is something I used to do and even if your intentions are just to gather data, fishing for eye contact is just lame, it places way too much importance on a woman's opinion of your initial appearance. If you like a girl and she fulfils your criteria, then approach her. You're looking for invitations which women don't give in the vast majority of cases even if they really like you when you approach.

If you choose to stay in the UK, either approach foreign girls only (if you go to London) or if you stay put foreign girls plus british girls you like, and try not to predict what kind of attitude the british girls will give you as they might sense your inner tension and negativity. Alternatively you can shoot for checking out of the UK at least for a few months on the year to start. Heck even one month in the Philippines would probably have a huge impact on your forum posts and your life as a whole. OTR is (albeit less kindly) saying that if you're going to stay put in the UK in a place with a majority of british/british born girls, the only way you're going to have success is by adapting to the challenging conditions and not by simply analyzing it to death or wishing that it could be something that it is not. For it is challenging, I agree with you on this. That's where the strong argument for expatriation or at least at first jaunts abroad comes from. We shouldn't take everything someone like Roosh says as gospel, because every man is different, but he is not talking shit when he compares anglo women to EE or SA women. The first pure mexican girl I met on my first trip out of the anglosphere did something to me I never thought possible. There is so much better quality to be had. But it takes a lot to leave familiar territory, to learn new languages, to adapt to new cultures and customs, to leave immediate family and other social supports behind, to earn location independent money. This is why you might well be forced (at least for a large part of the year) to either adapt as OTR has suggested or simply withdraw and focus on yourself, your finances and other avenues self-improvement in order to take trips abroad and maybe even expatriate in the end.

[Off The Reservation]

(02-29-2016 09:45 AM)ChickenLover9T9 Wrote:  

OTR makes some good points. It's tough love but a lot of what he says is true. It's true that british slags are having sex a lot and if you catch certain ones at the right time they are some of the easiest girls around. But even if they're hot it's really not a pleasant experience to spend even just an hour trying to pull her. The personalities of this type of girl are like scraping nails down a blackboard.

It's also true that there can be some good quality girls found in the UK, usually found in the day. Surface level indicators are nowhere near 100% reliable but if you filter by what type of girl she looks like, you can find some decent british girls.

From my own experience I've met very polite and receptive, good quality british girls from day approaches, but I've also had my fair share of attitude as well. As the quality of british girls has gone down in the last decade, it comes to a point where for me it's not worth it to approach in the UK, I just go abroad. At the same time, when I am in the UK and encounter a nice girl from time to time, I don't even bother because even though she seems good quality for a british girl, it's not the same when you have come back from Budapest and had what you've had and seen what you have seen there. Add to this you have many board members and leading figures in the "manosphere" repeating the poor quality of anglo women and it sort of leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy. A big part of it is true, I admit that, but in our negative attitudes to british women we could be turning them off or if we don't turn them off we still don't even bother because "all anglo women are inferior".

OP I know eye contact is a metric a lot of men use but stop looking out for it, even if your intention is to use it for purposes of gathering data. This is something I used to do and even if your intentions are just to gather data, fishing for eye contact is just lame, it places way too much importance on a woman's opinion of your initial appearance. If you like a girl and she fulfils your criteria, then approach her. You're looking for invitations which women don't give in the vast majority of cases even if they really like you when you approach.

If you choose to stay in the UK, either approach foreign girls only (if you go to London) or if you stay put foreign girls plus british girls you like, and try not to predict what kind of attitude the british girls will give you as they might sense your inner tension and negativity. Alternatively you can shoot for checking out of the UK at least for a few months on the year to start. Heck even one month in the Philippines would probably have a huge impact on your forum posts and your life as a whole. OTR is (albeit less kindly) saying that if you're going to stay put in the UK in a place with a majority of british/british born girls, the only way you're going to have success is by adapting to the challenging conditions and not by simply analyzing it to death or wishing that it could be something that it is not. For it is challenging, I agree with you on this. That's where the strong argument for expatriation or at least at first jaunts abroad comes from. We shouldn't take everything someone like Roosh says as gospel, because every man is different, but he is not talking shit when he compares anglo women to EE or SA women. The first pure mexican girl I met on my first trip out of the anglosphere did something to me I never thought possible. There is so much better quality to be had. But it takes a lot to leave familiar territory, to learn new languages, to adapt to new cultures and customs, to leave immediate family and other social supports behind, to earn location independent money. This is why you might well be forced (at least for a large part of the year) to either adapt as OTR has suggested or simply withdraw and focus on yourself, your finances and other avenues self-improvement in order to take trips abroad and maybe even expatriate in the end.

Nicely explained

[Hazaer]

(02-26-2016 08:10 AM)zatara Wrote:  

(02-21-2016 11:04 AM)XPQ22 Wrote:  

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and say I actually have some sympathy for women in this regard.

I've been back in night game for a bit, doing the online thing. Some of the girls I've banged thought it was fun to show me some of the messages they receive, and I observe the approaches other dudes run.

There are some sad thirstbuckets out there, who don't much to improve themselves but think the world owes them something. Sorry champs - that's not the way it works.

I don't blame them for not wanting to deal with it sometimes. It'd be sort of like you getting approached by 300 pound chicks all night - who would want to put up with it?

One of my more important nightlife-game-life-lessons was going to bars full of 30-35 year old women with mates. I never would have believed it before but its amazing how annoying having random women constantly trying to hit on you quickly becomes. You very quickly start completely shutting down any women who aren't either a) very attractive or else b) extremely witty with their opener.

I'd recommend the experience to any guy in their 20s, it really changes the way you view approaching women. If I had 20-30 women approaching me every night I went out, 90% of whom were either stupid/ugly/too drunk, I'd very quickly develop a resting bitch face too.

Where exactly did you get this experience?

[zatara]

(03-03-2016 05:19 AM)Hazaer Wrote:  

Where exactly did you get this experience?

I've gone to quite a few since then, the joys of having a friend who for some reason has an older woman fetish. I've been to bars like that in London, Dublin, and NYC off the top of my head. In most large cities there are usually certain bars that get women of a 30-40 year old vintage, the sort of cougarish-career woman. Its not what I'm into at all, but it is something worth trying.

Guessing you're in Oz from your flag, in which case I'd recommend looking for upscale wine/cocktail bars in your city. Their clientele usually skews female and older. Depending on your city there may be one or two in particular that are known as more 30something pickup-friendly bars. If you can find somewhere like that, and go in as a mid 20s guy with a full head of hair and in good physical shape, you'll stand out a mile from your mid 30s male competitors. This will get a lot of attention.

Then again Oz is so awfully competitive for game you might be unlucky and find all the 35 year old dudes are still jacked with great hair... But hopefully not. Most places in the world I've been the vast majority of 30 something guys are balding, pale, have a beer belly etc. Its a rare minority that keeps things together physically as years of work/alcohol/bad diet/lack of exercise takes its toll.

On a topical note; Feldeinsamkeit, you'd probably do better if you went for women 30+ too actually, given your age. At least for starters, to build the confidence/experience up. A 41 to 31 year old age gap won't require half as much effort to overcome as 41 to early 20s.

[Off The Reservation]

(03-03-2016 11:06 AM)zatara Wrote:  

(03-03-2016 05:19 AM)Hazaer Wrote:  

Where exactly did you get this experience?

I've gone to quite a few since then, the joys of having a friend who for some reason has an older woman fetish. I've been to bars like that in London, Dublin, and NYC off the top of my head. In most large cities there are usually certain bars that get women of a 30-40 year old vintage, the sort of cougarish-career woman. Its not what I'm into at all, but it is something worth trying.

Guessing you're in Oz from your flag, in which case I'd recommend looking for upscale wine/cocktail bars in your city. Their clientele usually skews female and older. Depending on your city there may be one or two in particular that are known as more 30something pickup-friendly bars. If you can find somewhere like that, and go in as a mid 20s guy with a full head of hair and in good physical shape, you'll stand out a mile from your mid 30s male competitors. This will get a lot of attention.

Then again Oz is so awfully competitive for game you might be unlucky and find all the 35 year old dudes are still jacked with great hair... But hopefully not. Most places in the world I've been the vast majority of 30 something guys are balding, pale, have a beer belly etc. Its a rare minority that keeps things together physically as years of work/alcohol/bad diet/lack of exercise takes its toll.

On a topical note; Feldeinsamkeit, you'd probably do better if you went for women 30+ too actually, given your age. At least for starters, to build the confidence/experience up. A 41 to 31 year old age gap won't require half as much effort to overcome as 41 to early 20s.

I have noticed also worldwide women of many ages are not interested in and do not respond to most corporate guys any more. The corporate guys are mostly miserable and their lives and thinking are programmed. The only exception I can find is single moms who may be eyeing the income. Most women would rather put their attention on a tattoo artist or entrepreneur, or other guy with game.

[rudebwoy]

^Don't know if I agree with this. A lot of large corporations have lots of lonely women, that are looking to meet a nice corporate guy. I got burnt once so I don't want to go down that path, but a lot of women are looking for the stable provider.

[worldtraveler3]

I am not sure what u mean by 'most woman'.

If she's had rode thr carousel and are near or over 30 she is DEFINITELY looking for a corporate guy.

[262]

(03-03-2016 08:16 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^Don't know if I agree with this. A lot of large corporations have lots of lonely women, that are looking to meet a nice corporate guy. I got burnt once so I don't want to go down that path, but a lot of women are looking for the stable provider.

Alpha fucks, beta bucks.

[Robert Plant]

The Anglo countries have 3 main issues as I see it:

-A brand of feminism that says men are not important to a woman's happiness and men should be attracted to women even if they are fat. Worse still, Anglo women often believe men are inferior and therefore are not worthy of respect. I personally try to treat everyone with respect and have no problem with (non-socially engineered) equality but find the Anglo version of feminism really F-ed up.

-Online dating has turned a huge number of women into hypergamey machines. Online an 8 guy is usually stuck dating 6s. My solution, use online as a tool but also approach women during the day and at night.

-Puritanical hangups about sex and guilt are deeply ingrained in women's sub and unconscious minds. The means that even when protestant-background women jump into bed with you their anti slut defenses are likely to kick in later. This applies to girls who aren't religious too, as long as their background is protestant Christian. Since I started game about a year and a half ago, I have been with 3 Muslims, 6 Buddhists, several Jews, a ton of "Catholics", a few former protestant atheists/agnostics and 0 active protestant Christians, not that I haven't tried with the Christians. With the exception of one of Jewish women, the only ones who have freaked out about sex (usually after a really passionate night) are the former protestants.

On the other hand, if you as a guy are good and bed and are free sexual hangups, you differentiate yourself from most of the guys in the Anglosphere.

My solution to the Anglosphere, find foreign born and 1st generation woman, try to have multiple long term relationships and Always be Closing.