[greekgod]

(02-01-2016 05:41 AM)262 Wrote:  

You could extend Peregrine's "red-pillness" to the nationalist/globalist elite/non-elite political space.

Again, that may hurt feelings, and it may not be the "right" way to do things, but it is what is.

Of course, then the question becomes, what are you going to do about it? Work to change the system so it adapts to you? Or do you adapt to the system? Or both, and to what extent?

This is the most important part of this thread. What are you going to do?

There are three games you can at this point

1. The politics game; what most of american workers have done for the past 20 or so years. (I'm in my 20s maybe its longer, you tell me). The pros and cons are obvious

2. The skills game; ok, you want this, it will cost you this much. I'm that much higher quality. Quality always wins long term.

3. The ownership game; fuck you, pay me. This is what I advocate anyone with an angle does and does hard. This thread about outsourced labor and declining wages is a microcosm of what is going on in the majority of corporations. Executives are out of tricks and can't sustain their overheads much more. Its only a matter of time before the comp reductions creep upwards to the big dogs. Or, if you are enterprising, you see their bloated model and undersell short term to capture market share. Once you start making them bleed turn on the heat and start going to even higher margins. I believe there is huge opportunity to run the monolithic big guys out of town. They are too stagnant. Thats my long term plan in a different segment.

One last note; avoid publicly traded companies like the plague. All of our best clients, best hiring practices, and the ones who retain the best long term value are privately held. They don't answer to the street and it gives them so much more control over their plans.



@suits, Ill find some email exchanges that capture the idiocy.

[MrLemon]

(02-01-2016 11:16 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

I believe there is huge opportunity to run the monolithic big guys out of town. They are too stagnant.

I love that. Go for it man.

[Suits]

(02-01-2016 11:16 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

@suits, Ill find some email exchanges that capture the idiocy.

Email exchanges would be great, but I'm especially interested in one or more detailed accounts of how you had lying applicants on the edge of tears.

[Enigma]

(01-31-2016 09:14 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

I support Trump as well, but this is not something that one man can change.

Edit: Supporting Trump != supporting higher prices for consumer goods in order to raise domestic earnings. If people supported that, they'd buy Made in USA over Nike. Most people choose to buy Nike.

You just invalidated your own point.

Nike/Jordan is the most expensive mainstream sneaker brand. Coincidentally, they're also the most popular.

People will wait in line for hours and pay $200 to $300+ for a pair of re-released Jordans before they'll buy an $80 pair of New Balance (which are made in the US).

Companies like Nike outsource labor because it pads their profit margins, not because it allows them to sell their goods for cheaper. Even a pair of American made, leather Allen Edmonds are barely more expensive than the latest Lebron or Kobe Bryant Nike signature shoe.

[Peregrine]

If that's the case, people really don't care about their fellow American.

[262]

@MrLemon - Even though I ultimately take a "what are you going to do about it" stance on this and many other issues, here's one way to advocate for what you want in a mainstream-friendly manner:

Basically, just tell the mainstream that the H1B visa program exploits foreigners and is therefore racist - by paying them less than their domestic counterparts, and by tying their visa status and livelihoods directly to only one job, which puts them at the mercy of greedy corporations.

My guess, though, is that you think that morally, the focus should be on American workers, not foreign ones. But you probably also know which focus will likely be more effective for getting the end result you want - termination of the H1B visa program.

Of course, it's your call.

[greekgod]

Great point.

As more women go into stem, this will take a life of its own.

How can a company fight the war on women while also giving their jobs to visa holders? Doesn't that widen the 61 cents for every dollar a man makes?

If we use TPTB pawns against them things could change.

[JacksonRev]

(02-02-2016 06:10 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

Great point.

As more women go into stem, this will take a life of its own.

How can a company fight the war on women while also giving their jobs to visa holders? Doesn't that widen the 61 cents for every dollar a man makes?

If we use TPTB pawns against them things could change.

We're already at peak women in stem. They don't have the skillset in numbers and stem families aren't reproducing at a replacement rate.

[Brodiaga]

(02-02-2016 06:10 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

Great point.

As more women go into stem, this will take a life of its own.

How can a company fight the war on women while also giving their jobs to visa holders? Doesn't that widen the 61 cents for every dollar a man makes?

If we use TPTB pawns against them things could change.

As more women go into STEM, STEM jobs will become shittier and shittier for men.

[Cattle Rustler]

(02-01-2016 05:06 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Every game is rigged. Aren't we all here on RVF because the dating game is "rigged"?

No.

Some of us get laid regularly and simply wish to find a group of like minded men we can share our stories with.

[Peregrine]

You misunderstood me.

[Avant-Garde]

greekgod,

I appreciate your posts and dropping the industry knowledge. It blows away all the bs the pro-mass immigration/corruption camp posted. I do have a question: I get contacted by so many indian recruiters, I get like 20-30 emails a day, whereas I might get 1-3 from an American recruiter. These indians will say that they found my resume on a job board and send a job description in the email for a job in a city that's totally far away from my location, which I state in my job board profile. They'll also ask me to send in a Word copy of my resume and an hourly rate quote. What's going on here? Are they fishing for higher quotes that they can present along with their own lower quoted candidates?

-AG

[Avant-Garde]

(01-25-2016 04:18 AM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

IT companies and tech giants are not the same. Tech giants hire software engineers. I know tons of computer science majors who have 5-12 job offers when they graduate. There genuinely is a dearth of US software engineers, hence the push by Microsoft/Facebook/etc.

That said, I do absolutely agree this is a problem. There's too many IT jobs getting taken by foreigners while US citizens are getting fired. I don't know what the solution is, but to eliminate all H1B visas is short-sighted. One could argue we should stop H1B visas until we educate our own enough to fill the job positions, but that's a foolish gamble in today's fast paced global economy. If not us, someone else will do it. Keep in mind H1B visas are also used by many companies to hire foreign-born US-educated scientists and researchers (PhD level). No more H1B means all these people go back to their homeland and compete with US.

The proof in the pudding: tech giants typically pay their employees six figures. IT companies like Infosys and Wipro pay their employees $60K, the minimum needed for an H1B visa. The reason why Microsoft and Co are pushing for more H1B visas is so that they can get more software engineers, right now they're competing for these visas with the likes of Infosys and Wipro which import a lot of Indians.

As for *they've created* the education gap...please. If more Americans wanted to go in STEM majors, especially computer science, tech giants wouldn't need to pay their 22 year college graduates over $100K starting salary. Demand and supply. As for IT though, yeah it's a scam and we need to fix it.

There are truly exceptional foreign workers but there's absolutely no need for 1.5 million of them. When a company lays off American workers to bring in foreign workers that they have to train, this is absolute proof that there is no talent shortage.

22 yr old CS college grads are not getting over $100K starting salaries. It's more like companies would rather hire a foreign worker with 2-3 years of 'experience' and a dubious degree from a diploma mill, for half the price, from an Indian staffing co like Infosys or Tata, who in turn pays the worker 60-70% and puts them up in dorm housing like sardines.

[Avant-Garde]

Here are some numbers that might make sense of why a CEO would bring in foreign workers:

Let's say an IT dept of 200 workers with an average salary of $120K. With benefits (medical, 401, etc) this can go up to $140 or more. Hiring indian staffing co like Tata for an average of $70K per worker. Tata pays worker $35K but pays for travel costs and puts them up 4 workers to a 2 bd dorm style apt.

Company saves $50K per worker per year. Multiply by 200 = $10 million. CEO becomes hero to investors and board, and gets performance bonus for 'saving' the company. Tata makes $20-25K per worker per year but since they work in bulk (they get awarded 6-8 thousand H1Bs per year), they makes billions. The US gov't just announced they're raising the visa fees to $5K and these indian staffing cos. said that this is nothing and won't affect their bottom line. The indian worker makes out as they're making $25-30K more than they would at home. Everyone gains except the American workers.

[Avant-Garde]

I've seen these pro-mass immigration/open borders supporters on other boards and discussions like the Breitbart articles, and they're pretty good at arguing their baseless points and dancing around the issue. They throw in a lot of red herrings and straw man arguments that muddy things up. Like the '2.5 jobs that foreign workers create' or like this dude 'the thing' who quotes Stalin then backpedals when shown the truth. He hasn't posted since greekgod dropped the H-bomb and busted his bs.

[Avant-Garde]

(01-31-2016 08:13 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

It happens because everything in a company is run on a quarterly performance basis. Even capital projects are subject to companies hitting their EPS numbers to keep Wall Street happy.

You hit the nail on the head. These public companies are pressured to perform otherwise their stock tanks. The question is: how to fix this so that American workers aren't shafted and companies still perform well. Hard to do since it's a short term window (quarterly).

-greekgod,

What's up with the bullet list of 'requirements'? I've applied to jobs where I meet most or all their requirements and I won't even get a response.

[Avant-Garde]

Another thing I noticed: these indian staffing companies are doing this all around the world, not just in the US. A good number of Euro countries import indian IT workers, even LatAm countries like Colombia and Mexico.

[Avant-Garde]

(01-25-2016 08:35 AM)Sonoma Wrote:  

I disagree pretty heavily, they have a K12 education from another country, then they get a college degree either overseas or here (where they pay out the ass in International Rates). Then they work for US companies and pay out the ass in taxes again.

The United States is the ultimate recipient of other countries education systems. The only immigrants who are generally a net loss are Hispanics, as they traditionally have only a minimal history of Education before coming here, where the educational infrastructure has to pour billions down the drain to get them up to speed (which never actually happens)

You need to read this post about all the fakery on their resumes - thread-53250...pid1204090

Also, these workers come here under a F1 student visa which means they study in a US educational institution. Then they get to work under the F1 OPT work program which is basically a loophole to get around the H1B limit/cap.

[Avant-Garde]

(01-25-2016 09:08 AM)Secrenis Wrote:  

How do you compare engineer A's contribution to engineer B's? You really can't.

Yes you can. Any Lead Dev can easily see this.

(01-25-2016 09:08 AM)Secrenis Wrote:  

Universities are less invested in the students, and for most administrations, these programs are seen a cash cow.

After investing their own money, competing with American students, and being vetted by American unis for their competency, what is wrong with these individuals staying to work in United States? Must they really go back to their home country?

That line of reasoning does not make sense to me.

What you don't understand is that American high school grads applications to these colleges are being passed over in favor of foreign students because the school makes 3-4 times more in tuition. There is a college in California that now refuses to accept American students. These universities are in collusion with companies to provide them with cheap labor in the form of the OPT student work program. So the schools win, the foreign students win and the American companies win. And American students & workers lose.

[Avant-Garde]

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

Ask a Ford plant worker: would he/she like to lose their job but have Ford trucks that are cheaper or keep their jobs and the price of Ford trucks the same. Or another example: the prices at Walmart are 40% less but you lose your job.

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

The rest of us prefer lower prices on consumer goods.

Who doesn't prefer lower prices? The catch is it has a cost: the loss of jobs or the lowering of wages/pay.

[Avant-Garde]

(02-01-2016 01:17 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

It was done to capture more profit which isn't reinvested anywhere. It goes to institutional investors and Csuite bonuses.

Spot on again. The 1% enriching themselves some more.

[Avant-Garde]

(02-01-2016 05:06 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Every game is rigged. Aren't we all here on RVF because the dating game is "rigged"? If everyone knows that wages are flat, why not choose a different line of work (assuming wage increases are important to you)?

This is liberal drivel. "Red pill" is seeing the reality which is the view that MrLemon, greekgod, Onto and others including me see. And we're stepping up to call it out and fight it. If you want to bend over and accept your fate that you're going to get shafted, that's your own call but don't drag us into that hell.

[Avant-Garde]

Arguing with these pro-indian worker types is turning into a waste of time. Better to focus on how to get Trump and Sessions into office where they can effect the change for the better that our country needs.

There are organizations like Just Capital that has a plan to reduce income inequality (the wealth gap). It was created by Paul Tudor Jones II who argues that income inequality is being driven by what he calls "shareholder hegemony," the principle that companies first and foremost should satisfy investors. They may have an answer to curbing the 'quarterly performance' pressure of public companies.

An upwelling of public support for these type of companies can help turn the tide.

[Avant-Garde]

(02-01-2016 05:41 AM)262 Wrote:  

You could extend Peregrine's "red-pillness" to the nationalist/globalist elite/non-elite political space.

Here's the red pill:

These people need to fix the problems in their own country that's keeping them from becoming prosperous first-world countries, instead of leeching off other countries. If they are as 'talented' as they say in their fake-o resumes, then they should be able to put their heads together and solve their own problems, instead of coming over here and creating problems for us Americans!

[Avant-Garde]

(02-02-2016 01:11 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Email exchanges would be great, but I'm especially interested in one or more detailed accounts of how you had lying applicants on the edge of tears.

Suits - you are one sadistic mofo. What would you give for an audio or video of one?

On a side note: I got an email from an indian recruiter looking for a SharePoint Developer with 7 years experience in SharePoint 2013