[BortimusPrime]

What makes so little sense is that if these HB1s are being billed out for what amounts to a doctor's salary, why the hell are companies using these staffing firms with their fake-o resumes?

[BlueOcean]

(01-25-2016 11:52 AM)kosko Wrote:  

H1-B = better skills for cheaper.

The reality is the Yankee workforce is overpaid and underskilled.

You can't have it both ways. On one hand Big Tech manipulates Govt to make it more easy for then to import cheaper labour. But then you now want the Govt to protect American workers...

The market is showing they prefer to import as they don't see it as viable to overpay Yankees to do the same job.

If the American govt isn't willing to protect American workers, then the govt is useless to me. I'm happy Donald Trump is anti-H1b and plan to vote for him.

[262]

(01-30-2016 09:57 PM)BlueOcean Wrote:  

If the American govt isn't willing to protect American workers, then the govt is useless to me. I'm happy Donald Trump is anti-H1b and plan to vote for him.

Playing devil's advocate, certain people could also say:

Quote:

If the American govt isn't willing to protect American women, then the govt is useless to me. I'm happy Hillary Clinton is anti-male and plan to vote for her.

[Andy_B]

I dunno man.

I understand your anger but I'm not sure I buy the underlying logic.

Yes, it's infuriating to see your jobs shipped overseas, or people moved from overseas to do a job that you'd like to do.

But you have to ask yourself, why are they so keen on bringing this talent here?

The idea that it's because of some hatred of middle America strikes me as an unfounded conspiracy theory.

Outsourcing is one thing, but when you bring Indians here on an H1-B, that person is living in the U.S., paying crazy San Francisco rents... They're not going to be cheaper.

The fact is that too many Westerners send their kids to school to major in worthless subjects, whereas Asian kids are generally taught to major in worthwhile subjects.

The focus needs to be on the culture that allows us to produce all these worthless graduates, NOT on the Indians.

I wouldn't want to get a job because the labor market artificially cut off access to Indians. I think I'm good enough at what I do to thrive even in an international job market (I charge $50 an hour despite plenty of cheap foreign competition), but if I can't, well, I'll bite the bullet and take a lower standard of living. You can't go around demanding that people with game be kept out of something just because they're not from here. If they have game, they have game. This 'took our jobs' stuff is really similar to feminists always trying to get special privileges over men by throwing tantrums. I never understood even the desire for those kinds of privileges. Isn't it a little embarrassing to have something you didn't earn?

[GlobalMan]

(01-26-2016 11:47 AM)the Thing Wrote:  

If there were Americans with the same skills were available to hire, do you think they would bother with the H1b workers?

What do you not understand about the current situation? American workers are being laid off and directly REPLACED with H1b workers, it's not because of a god damn shortage in those cases, it's about getting the Indian guy for half price, while the American worker gets put out of a job.

[GlobalMan]

Thankfully our founders wrote a wonderful constitution, now we just need the right guy in the oval office to do something, someone who puts the citizens of our country first.

(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.

Since I was 19 years old (now 32) I've been traveling living all over the world. Where ever I've lived I've always done so with the understanding that it was not my country, that I am a grateful guest, and I don't recall any country giving me, the foreigner, opportunities on par with those available to the local citizens. And I have no problem with that, thats how it should be. It's time the U.S. adopt similar policies.

[JacksonRev]

(01-31-2016 05:53 AM)Andy_B Wrote:  

I dunno man.

I understand your anger but I'm not sure I buy the underlying logic.

Yes, it's infuriating to see your jobs shipped overseas, or people moved from overseas to do a job that you'd like to do.

But you have to ask yourself, why are they so keen on bringing this talent here?

The idea that it's because of some hatred of middle America strikes me as an unfounded conspiracy theory.

Outsourcing is one thing, but when you bring Indians here on an H1-B, that person is living in the U.S., paying crazy San Francisco rents... They're not going to be cheaper.

The fact is that too many Westerners send their kids to school to major in worthless subjects, whereas Asian kids are generally taught to major in worthwhile subjects.

The focus needs to be on the culture that allows us to produce all these worthless graduates, NOT on the Indians.

I wouldn't want to get a job because the labor market artificially cut off access to Indians. I think I'm good enough at what I do to thrive even in an international job market (I charge $50 an hour despite plenty of cheap foreign competition), but if I can't, well, I'll bite the bullet and take a lower standard of living. You can't go around demanding that people with game be kept out of something just because they're not from here. If they have game, they have game. This 'took our jobs' stuff is really similar to feminists always trying to get special privileges over men by throwing tantrums. I never understood even the desire for those kinds of privileges. Isn't it a little embarrassing to have something you didn't earn?

Overly concerned about aliens much?

And there is the nepotism and turf wars that IRTs bring once they get their hooks in the US system, where it doesn't matter if the H1B is cheaper because it's a chance to bring over family.

[JacksonRev]

(01-31-2016 05:15 AM)262 Wrote:  

(01-30-2016 09:57 PM)BlueOcean Wrote:  

If the American govt isn't willing to protect American workers, then the govt is useless to me. I'm happy Donald Trump is anti-H1b and plan to vote for him.

Playing devil's advocate, certain people could also say:

Quote:

If the American govt isn't willing to protect American women, then the govt is useless to me. I'm happy Hillary Clinton is anti-male and plan to vote for her.

Bad comparison. Hillary hates other women. How can a person love women that wants to treat them like men? Not to mention how she's helped silence all of Bill's tricks.

[Fast Eddie]

(01-31-2016 05:53 AM)Andy_B Wrote:  

I dunno man.

I understand your anger but I'm not sure I buy the underlying logic.

Yes, it's infuriating to see your jobs shipped overseas, or people moved from overseas to do a job that you'd like to do.

But you have to ask yourself, why are they so keen on bringing this talent here?

The idea that it's because of some hatred of middle America strikes me as an unfounded conspiracy theory.

Outsourcing is one thing, but when you bring Indians here on an H1-B, that person is living in the U.S., paying crazy San Francisco rents... They're not going to be cheaper.

The fact is that too many Westerners send their kids to school to major in worthless subjects, whereas Asian kids are generally taught to major in worthwhile subjects.

The focus needs to be on the culture that allows us to produce all these worthless graduates, NOT on the Indians.

I wouldn't want to get a job because the labor market artificially cut off access to Indians. I think I'm good enough at what I do to thrive even in an international job market (I charge $50 an hour despite plenty of cheap foreign competition), but if I can't, well, I'll bite the bullet and take a lower standard of living. You can't go around demanding that people with game be kept out of something just because they're not from here. If they have game, they have game. This 'took our jobs' stuff is really similar to feminists always trying to get special privileges over men by throwing tantrums. I never understood even the desire for those kinds of privileges. Isn't it a little embarrassing to have something you didn't earn?

What on earth are you talking about? This is our country brah, there is no fucking reason whatsoever Indians should be allowed to come here in the hundreds of thousands every year and take jobs away from Americans. That is the point of having a country. Damn kids these days are so confused I'm at a loss for words. It's like trying to explain to someone why there is nothing wrong with closing the doors of your house to homeless bums, shit is so obvious it's simply difficult to explain.

You stop bums from entering your house because it's your house. You stop Indians from entering your country's labor markets because it's your country. Fuuuck. Sure you can let them in and "out-compete" them but why would you want to do that? Do you let random men into your house every day and compete with them for the privilege of fucking your wife? No, you simply say "sorry bums, but this is my house and my wife, and I'm the one living in my house and fucking my wife, not you." Likewise: "Sorry Indians, but this is America and America's labor market, and Americans live in America and compete for jobs here, not you Indians." Shit is so obvious it's scary we're discussing it.

[zigZag]

For better or worse that's free market capitalism. Companies are free to do what makes sense for them. Google and Facebook/ Other Tech companies hire these foreign workers because that makes sense for their business. I'm surprised that this idea that we should force them to hire americans "because they have to take care of their own" has so much support on this forum. That is more akin to socialism than free market capitalism. For all the people who say that well do it "for the good of the country"...

Well what if the government said that all men who are unmarried over 30 should be forced to marry a single mother and raise the child as his own because "It's good for society"...

Companies are always gonna look for the better deal just like a woman who will look for a better deal and you will look for a better deal. That's part of the reality of life. Also my suspicion is that if we killed the the Visa program companies would just set up shop in these foreign countries and Fire more americans.

Government Tyranny is not the solution.

[Fast Eddie]

(01-31-2016 09:39 AM)zigZag Wrote:  

For better or worse that's free market capitalism. Companies are free to do what makes sense for them. Google and Facebook/ Other Tech companies hire these foreign workers because that makes sense for their business. I'm surprised that this idea that we should force them to hire americans "because they have to take care of their own" has so much support on this forum. That is more akin to socialism than free market capitalism. For all the people who say that well do it "for the good of the country"...

Well what if the government said that all men who are unmarried over 30 should be forced to marry a single mother and raise the child as his own because "It's good for society"...

Companies are always gonna look for the better deal just like a woman who will look for a better deal and you will look for a better deal. That's part of the reality of life. Also my suspicion is that if we killed the the Visa program companies would just set up shop in these foreign countries and Fire more americans.

Government Tyranny is not the solution.

Listen. If you want to bring 10 foreign girls to America to fuck for 2 years, can you do it? No. The government will not grant them the necessary paperwork. So why do you think a corporation should be able to bring unlimited number of foreigners to this country whenever it feels like? Is there a magic "free market get out of jail free card" that allows corporations to completely circumvent the idea of national borders and act as if immigration rules don't exist?

I'm now more convinced than ever that libertarians suffer from a mental disorder. I'm out of this thread, my fucking head hurts.

[Tytalus]

This kind of thing just enrages me - good jobs, Americans and Canadians (we have our own problems up here) getting shipped out. Fucking pisses me off.

[Dalaran1991]

I'm interested in this. Can you guys post some numbers/statistics? Just how many percent of tech workers in US are foreigners? How many companies/associations outshore tech service? How much cheaper is off-shoring? And how bad is this for a new IT grad in USA?

[weambulance]

(01-31-2016 09:39 AM)zigZag Wrote:  

For better or worse that's free market capitalism. Companies are free to do what makes sense for them. Google and Facebook/ Other Tech companies hire these foreign workers because that makes sense for their business. I'm surprised that this idea that we should force them to hire americans "because they have to take care of their own" has so much support on this forum. That is more akin to socialism than free market capitalism. For all the people who say that well do it "for the good of the country"...

I know it's silly of me, but I'm a little confused. How is the H1B visa situation, which is a market distortion created by the government, an example of free market capitalism at work?

Quote:

Well what if the government said that all men who are unmarried over 30 should be forced to marry a single mother and raise the child as his own because "It's good for society"...

Well, what if the government mandated we all wear hamster balls full of scorpions around our necks and dip our balls in the opening every six hours? What does that have to do with anything?

Quote:

Companies are always gonna look for the better deal just like a woman who will look for a better deal and you will look for a better deal. That's part of the reality of life. Also my suspicion is that if we killed the the Visa program companies would just set up shop in these foreign countries and Fire more americans.

Fucking let them go overseas then! They want to have their cake and eat it too. You want to get rich off Americans on American soil, you can bloody well do it employing American citizens.

Quote:

Government Tyranny is not the solution.

The government caused the problem to begin with. How is demanding they roll back their bullshit laws tyranny?

What you apparently don't grasp about the situation is companies often use H1B visas to trade qualified workers who won't put up with being mistreated (Americans) for workers who are dependent on the job to stay here, and who will thus take much lower pay and put up with a lot more abuse.

There are darker allegations too, like indications that H1B visas (and other programs) are being used to facilitate human trafficking.

Normally I'm all for the government keeping it's goddamn nose out, but when it creates a problem it can damn well fix it.

[Onto]

I'm a software consultant and it's becoming really difficult to do my job. There are many Indians I enjoy chatting with, but when it comes to work they are competitively ruthless and will discriminate against any non-Indian.

1) Though there are smart ones, the average H1B is not that bright. They go into software because it's the only thing that will get them out of India and make them money. Unlike the US where an American who goes into software does so because he "wants" to. Therefore, he's going to naturally be better at it. Look at all the high-end innovators of software and technology today and the past 50 years. For the most part, they are all Americans.

2) Most Indians are now in a position of power at every IT department. Indians come here and build a nation within a nation. They discriminate against all Americans on the job site. Withhold necessary co-operation, and are downright competitively ruthless. It's just their nature. Discrimination is a way of life for them and they see nothing wrong in it. Back home, they have the caste system still, along with the untouchables.

3) Try being on a conference call or a meeting where it's 80% Indians. You can't understand a fucking word of what's being said, and they don't understand what each other is saying either. They constantly argue with each other even when they are in agreement. It drives me nuts.

4) They smell, their hygiene is horrible. They microwave leftover fish and what-not and stink up the whole office. When they organize an office get-together it's always to celebrate something Indian with Indian food. It's all about them.

Many H1B's are getting converted over to GreenCards/Citizens so it can free-up more H1B's. This is better in some ways, because that GreenCard holder can then be free to work for market-rate.

I'm still making great money, but I would be making a whole lot more if it weren't for the H1B's

There are lots of very bright American Software guys with 20+ years experience who are making $80k because of the over-saturation. The corporations goal is to get the skilled IT worker down to a middle-class wage or lower, so they can boost profits. From their point of view, why should labor be making all the money?

[Gimlet]

Corporations and lawmakers around the country are lobbying hard to increase the number of H1B visas, along with increasing low skilled immigration (think Germany) as well.

The prom immigration Partnership for a New American Economy was formed in 2010 by Mike Bloomberg and Rupert Murdoch. If you have wondered why the typically right leaning Fox hasn't shown much about the rape gangs in Germany and why they hate Trump so much, it's because of Murdoch's involvement in this lobbying group.

That's not to just lay the blame at right leaning organizations, the CEO of tranny loving Disney is on the leadership board of this organization too. The major media companies are all influencing us on the topic of immigration, no surprise there.

   




Here is the full list of members:

http://www.renewoureconomy.org/wp-conten...d-1-27.pdf

A few highlights of their H1B positions:

   

   

It's going to get worse, not better. They all are conspiring against us.

[The Wire]

(01-27-2016 11:21 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

When employed by a big consulting firm, visa IT workers, lets just stick with developers for arguments sake, are being billed out at a rate of no less than $125/HR which equates to annual cost of 250K. These rates can go much higher. The average US IT workers salary is between 85-130K. The average salary for consulting worker is between 65-95K (+the H1 filing process costs a few thousand) which is less employment cost for labor to the employer but because there are now profits involved in the equation, the client ends up paying substantially more. Outsourcing is already operating at a huge loss. Additionally, the knowledge doesn’t stay with the organization that paid for it. So when Raju from Accenture gets put on a new project, his knowledge goes with him and poof goes the value. Yes there is documentation but lets be real, its not good and done in a way for the long term. The Fortune 1000 corp and consulting firm know the terms of the agreement when they get into it.

I understand why a company would be ok with $125/HR for a H1B for say 6 month until a project is complete and then they are done with them. My question is how does it make financial sense to outsource entire departments full time to a contracting company. For example Sancho posted above a story about Disney IT employees to training their H1B replacements. Are these long term strategic cost cutting plays by upper management to eventually have a skelton crew physically in the U.S. and then have an offshore team in India making pennies on the dollar doing the bulk of the work? So the in the long term the company saves on salary, rising health benefit costs, 401ks..etc?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/las...ments.html

Quote:

Now, this is where it gets criminal. The third party vendor I told you about before goes around and snaps up as many OTP candidates as possible, whose visa is being paid for by their school, and creates completely fabricated resumes. These resumes say the candidate has between 5+ to 7+ year experience on average and they want to bill between 55-90/HR which results in an annualized cost of $110K-180K per year. My organization, a US based staffing firm, then has to turn around and mark it up so we make a profit. So the cost goes up again. Now the real kicker here is that these 5 to 7 year “Candidates” are really fresh grads with no experience. They are between the ages 24-28.

This is a running joke at my company when interviewing H1Bs for consultant work. They all say 7 years. You have to sniff out the liars in the interview.

[Centurion]

(01-31-2016 08:46 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

What on earth are you talking about? This is our country brah, there is no fucking reason whatsoever Indians should be allowed to come here in the hundreds of thousands every year and take jobs away from Americans. That is the point of having a country. Damn kids these days are so confused I'm at a loss for words. It's like trying to explain to someone why there is nothing wrong with closing the doors of your house to homeless bums, shit is so obvious it's simply difficult to explain.

"Our"? You don't have a choice in whether to be "owned" by "your" country- they own you regardless of whether you choose to or not. There's such a huge difference between legitimate property rights and deluding yourself into thinking you "own" a slice of the mafia/gang that happens to seize power over your area. They've duped you. You don't own shit, and you never did. The only thing you own is yourself and your legitimate property. The point of having a country is for the state to legitimize violence without getting counter attacked.

The comparison to your house/wife is so wrong. Obviously you don't let them fuck your wife. But you do let them fuck other stranger women of the same race(if it's consensual). The difference is legitimate ownership. What if my "house" wants to hire Indians or other foreigners? Your(as I said above, it isn't really "yours") "superhouse" shouldn't be able to do shit.

(01-31-2016 10:10 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

Listen. If you want to bring 10 foreign girls to America to fuck for 2 years, can you do it? No. The government will not grant them the necessary paperwork.
...

I'm now more convinced than ever that libertarians suffer from a mental disorder. I'm out of this thread, my fucking head hurts.

I can't, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Corporations should be able to do it just like the rest of us should be able to.

I'm now more convinced than ever that conservatives suffer from a mental disorder.

[Neo]

If we've been at a company for a while and have a good reputation we do have some political pull and we can make a difference.

Now, I'm not totally against foreigners if they are truly qualified. Thing is what's mentioned above about many H1B's scamming their way into positions is in my experience true. Not to mention the cultural differences as Onto mentioned. They tend to form ethnic enclaves in the company where they actively discriminate against people who are not Indian.

I'm noticing trends that require someone to be very politically savvy these days. More so I believe than in times past. You don't have to be above having to do some shit to survive. A lot of these guys will have no problem fucking you over, so you shouldn't have any qualms about fucking them over. Their lack of American customs and cultural knowledge is a big weakness that can easily be exploited.

[El Chinito loco]

(01-31-2016 02:14 PM)Onto Wrote:  

I'm a software consultant and it's becoming really difficult to do my job. There are many Indians I enjoy chatting with, but when it comes to work they are competitively ruthless and will discriminate against any non-Indian.

Like I said before there's a very valid cultural reason that southeast asia developed this mentality of "if you see a snake and an indian kill the indian first." People think that's made up but it's a real saying in Thailand.

Indians straight from the subcontinent simply do not play well with others. This has apparently been true for centuries. It's still true now every single IRT i've seen has been extremely unpleasant to be around.

That's why you see some cultural transmission of the best aspects of India's ancient religious past into SEA but all the other social aspects (including interracial mixing and elite status) was mostly blocked out with a few rare modern day exceptions for the most integrated indians.

[Peregrine]

(01-31-2016 02:45 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

(01-27-2016 11:21 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

When employed by a big consulting firm, visa IT workers, lets just stick with developers for arguments sake, are being billed out at a rate of no less than $125/HR which equates to annual cost of 250K. These rates can go much higher. The average US IT workers salary is between 85-130K. The average salary for consulting worker is between 65-95K (+the H1 filing process costs a few thousand) which is less employment cost for labor to the employer but because there are now profits involved in the equation, the client ends up paying substantially more. Outsourcing is already operating at a huge loss. Additionally, the knowledge doesn’t stay with the organization that paid for it. So when Raju from Accenture gets put on a new project, his knowledge goes with him and poof goes the value. Yes there is documentation but lets be real, its not good and done in a way for the long term. The Fortune 1000 corp and consulting firm know the terms of the agreement when they get into it.

I understand why a company would be ok with $125/HR for a H1B for say 6 month until a project is complete and then they are done with them. My question is how does it make financial sense to outsource entire departments full time to a contracting company. For example Sancho posted above a story about Disney IT employees to training their H1B replacements. Are these long term strategic cost cutting plays by upper management to eventually have a skelton crew physically in the U.S. and then have an offshore team in India making pennies on the dollar doing the bulk of the work? So the in the long term the company saves on salary, rising health benefit costs, 401ks..etc?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/las...ments.html

The average CEO tenure is 5 to 7 years (ish, I don't have a source). That's the "long term" that they are concerned about. When shareholders demand ever-increasing ROE in a deflationary environment, CEOs cut costs. Labor is a huge cost. Keep in mind, MBAs view most STEM types as overpaid serfs.

[MrLemon]

(01-31-2016 09:39 AM)zigZag Wrote:  

For better or worse that's free market capitalism. Companies are free to do what makes sense for them. Google and Facebook/ Other Tech companies hire these foreign workers because that makes sense for their business. I'm surprised that this idea that we should force them to hire americans "because they have to take care of their own" has so much support on this forum. That is more akin to socialism than free market capitalism. For all the people who say that well do it "for the good of the country"...

Well what if the government said that all men who are unmarried over 30 should be forced to marry a single mother and raise the child as his own because "It's good for society"...

Companies are always gonna look for the better deal just like a woman who will look for a better deal and you will look for a better deal. That's part of the reality of life. Also my suspicion is that if we killed the the Visa program companies would just set up shop in these foreign countries and Fire more americans.

Government Tyranny is not the solution.

Baloney.

We are at the point, literally, where companies like Google and Facebook absolutely, positively DO NOT CARE if the United States collapses. They used the safety and security of the USA as their blanket to nurture and grow their companies, and now they turn around and pour national resources overseas. They are treating the people of the united states like dogs.

The technology companies pour billions upon billions of dollars into programs to TRAIN HIRE AND RECRUIT Indian workers. They put zero dollars into programs to train, hired, and recruit out of work midwestern workers. it is pure 100% anti-national bias. They look the other way as corrupt Indian CIOs fire local workers and then ship in unqualified guys from their home town. It has nothing to do with economics. It's a form of corruption, which actually, by the way, is completely illegal. It's like the CFO of a company taking bribes and stuffing the resulting money in his pocket.

This has been happening for 20 years and as a result, the US economy is literally gushing blood out. It is dying in front of us.

Man, go ready the history of World War II. Only 80 years ago, entire nations were destroyed and entire populations killed, because governments didn't act realistically to stop mass unemployment. Think about a mob of starving unemployed americans pointing sub-machine guns at your head and cheering for your brains to be splattered in the gutter. Then come back and tell me "it's just free market capitalism".

[MrLemon]

(01-27-2016 11:21 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

Ok, I wrote this up last night and wanted to comb through it one time. This is a snapshot of what I see on a daily basis as a tech recruiter. I tried not to get bogged down in technicalities of the minutia more focused on painting the big picture..

Every year in April, companies file H1B visas so workers can begin working on these visas in October of that year. The number of visas granted is roughly 200K. Only legitimate organizations can file for these. One Man LLC’s cannot.

Now, how does one go from a non H1 to an H1 you ask? There are a few ways; here are the most common.

Graduate with a masters or bachelors as a foreign student and you are on a OPT Visa for up to 19 months that your educational institution sponsors. (No cost to the candidate). If you major in a STEM field you are granted 27 months on an OPT. This can only occur after you’ve been on an F1 Visa program in which you can work no more than 20 hours a week and that work has to be a work study or school approved internship.

Another very common way to get on an H1 is to take the L1 route. The L1 route is an Intracompany transfer. So you work for a company in another country and they then transfer put to work “on loan” from their home countries business. Ex; Accenture India sends Raju to Accenture USA. He can only work for Accenture USA under the terms of his visa since he is truly an employee of Accenture India. He is basically an indentured servant. If he is a very good indentured servant, they’ll file his H1. This rarely happens. What usually happens is mom n pop “third party agency” file his H1 unbeknownst to his employer in the US in April. When it becomes active in October, he gives notice to Big time consulting firm, gets a bump in salary (generally 60-80K USD), and begins being pimped out.

There are other ways to do it but these are general the most common.

With the Visas out of the way; lets get on to the business of what happens.

When employed by a big consulting firm, visa IT workers, lets just stick with developers for arguments sake, are being billed out at a rate of no less than $125/HR which equates to annual cost of 250K. These rates can go much higher. The average US IT workers salary is between 85-130K. The average salary for consulting worker is between 65-95K (+the H1 filing process costs a few thousand) which is less employment cost for labor to the employer but because there are now profits involved in the equation, the client ends up paying substantially more. Outsourcing is already operating at a huge loss. Additionally, the knowledge doesn’t stay with the organization that paid for it. So when Raju from Accenture gets put on a new project, his knowledge goes with him and poof goes the value. Yes there is documentation but lets be real, its not good and done in a way for the long term. The Fortune 1000 corp and consulting firm know the terms of the agreement when they get into it.

Now, this is where it gets criminal. The third party vendor I told you about before goes around and snaps up as many OTP candidates as possible, whose visa is being paid for by their school, and creates completely fabricated resumes. These resumes say the candidate has between 5+ to 7+ year experience on average and they want to bill between 55-90/HR which results in an annualized cost of $110K-180K per year. My organization, a US based staffing firm, then has to turn around and mark it up so we make a profit. So the cost goes up again. Now the real kicker here is that these 5 to 7 year “Candidates” are really fresh grads with no experience. They are between the ages 24-28.

Oh, your 28 and have three degrees and 8 years of full time experience. Damn man, you are a time management freak! It’s a lie. You look at their massively cookie cutter resume and ask, oh you worked @ Wells Fargo in Dallas for two years. What was the address? To which they answer “Address????....I didn’t get you” Yes, you worked there for two years, what street did you work on? Oh, you can’t answer that; where did you and your coworkers grab lunch? “Lunch????....I didn’t get you? can you repeat”

The best question to ask is; ok, you just regurgitated the technologies on your resume to me. Now, what were they used for? Technology isn’t used in a vacuum, there is always a function. What was the functionality scope of your project?...Crickets.
Just today, I had someone tell me he worked at Rolls Royce in Dallas as a UI developer. Go on LinkedIn and select Rolls Royce and Filter for Dallas. There are 31 Salesman, no corporate offices and certainly no IT groups. Its moronic.

Their employer will just substitute a generic indian name at the top of the resume or put in one of their five middle names and spam the job boards until an offer comes up. Its massively inefficient for everyone but the employer doesn’t care because they have no skin in the game. They are just sitting in India pimping out their classmates that were smart enough to be presented to come to the US.

Sometimes if a “candidate” really can’t “crack” an interview with the three months of interview bullshitting prep they gave him, they’ll have another person on their payroll take the interview and send the fresher onsite. This always ends badly. We’ve had consultants break down crying because they couldn’t deal with the lying anymore. There is actually a case of a hiring manager calling us up and saying “Hey you know that guy that started this morning; I’m in my office and watching him run down the lawn to the parking lot very frantically. I don’t think our scope meeting went well with him this morning” I give them no pity but its sad, so far away from home and living a lie every day that you can never possibly live up to in the short term to maybe have a better future down the road.

Now if one of these “candidates” with 2-3 experience ever wants to go full time with an end client, say JPMC, their sense of value is so inflated that they want 40% raises to make the move. They think they are worth it and can get it. It rarely happens.

So every year, you have 200K H1s flooding the employment market pretending to be something they are not. H1s are supposed to expire after 2 three year terms. However, if a corporation begins the Green Card process, you can file for extensions in perpetuity. Some have been here for over a decade. You have at least 2 million H1s floating around the country. This doesn’t even account for those on student visas which, yes, will be less but its still in the hundreds of thousands.

And guess what? There is no quality control on any of this. There are so many fraudlent resumes attached to young, minimally experienced “consultants” that convolute the labor market.

The only check is really recruiters as gate keepers, hiring managers as interviews, team members as peers, and CIO’s who hire the consulting firms. However, we hold no legal power to straighten out the process so the firms will just fabricate another resume or shop to another organization until a hire occurs.

What has happened is the labor market is flooded with shiny, nonsense filled resumes and creates the ILLUSION OF COMPTENCY which keeps wages down. The avg. US worker has to compete solely on price as opposed to value or knowledge. However, they have to jump through hoops and go through numerous calls and interviews just to get an offer but they have no bargaining power. They are stuck and on average have a much harder time lying about their experience because they believe in good ole fashion honesty and transparency.

Now, this all seems overly harsh and negative, it may even come off that I hate indian consultants. I don’t. Some of the best guys I’ve worked with have been Indian but they are legit and any one of us would have a beer with them. The legit guys hate the scam too because of the stigma the fakes create. It’s the liars (24 year olds claiming to have 7+ years of experience) that have corrupted this market to the point that is unrecognizable. Unfortunately, there are a lot more liars than there are legit guys.

I mean ask yourself this; the technology was invented here. Why can’t we train people where the technology is built? One would assume if their countrymen are intelligent enough to develop the specs then they can train others local to them with a decent level of comprehension to be proficient and above average. There is no skills gap. There is a willingness gap. A willingness for visa workers to lie and a willingness for those in power to accept falsified backgrounds and shoddier product for less money and bargaining power of the labor force.

The anger however shouldn’t be placed at the feet of individual contributors from India on visas. The visa workers are just trying to better their lives and doing whatever they can to take that opportunity. It’s the executives, lobbyists, billionaires, and government that perpetuate this shell game.
One last remark; the truly talented people at the big tech companies like Google, FB, Paypal and Silicon valley in general are worth their weight in gold. They deserve visas and a swift green card (EB2, EB1 status). But in reality, there aren’t 200K of these people at the gates every year. Otherwise, we’d have flying cars and Marty McFly would be going back in time because of these geniuses on visas.

One last remark, whenever I do a search for an IT position on a job board, if I filter for US Cit and GC only, the number of available resumes drops by half. HALF. Every time. I don’t have the time or economic background to demonstrate what negative effects this has on the hiring process and economy in general but I can tell you this; its delaying real, honest candidates, visa or not, from getting to work and creating value. Its disastrous.

TL;DR the system is full of lies and is all about keeping wages down. There are thousands, more likely hundreds of thousands, of fraudlent profiles floating around which bottlenecks the process and floods the market with the perception that there are tons of talented visas workers with the right “skills”. These are paper skills and unverifiable. The visa program needs to be reformed.

This is a brilliant. Thank you. Have read similar posts in IT journals which are almost word-for-word confirmation.

The point is, the H1b program isn't about "economics". It's about organized crime.

You don't fight organized crime with "tax penalties". You fight organized crime by hunting down the criminals, putting them in fucking chains, and marching them to jail.

At the point of a gun.

[greekgod]

(01-31-2016 05:53 AM)Andy_B Wrote:  

I dunno man.

I understand your anger but I'm not sure I buy the underlying logic.

Yes, it's infuriating to see your jobs shipped overseas, or people moved from overseas to do a job that you'd like to do.

But you have to ask yourself, why are they so keen on bringing this talent here?

The idea that it's because of some hatred of middle America strikes me as an unfounded conspiracy theory.

Outsourcing is one thing, but when you bring Indians here on an H1-B, that person is living in the U.S., paying crazy San Francisco rents... They're not going to be cheaper.

The fact is that too many Westerners send their kids to school to major in worthless subjects, whereas Asian kids are generally taught to major in worthwhile subjects.

The focus needs to be on the culture that allows us to produce all these worthless graduates, NOT on the Indians.

I wouldn't want to get a job because the labor market artificially cut off access to Indians. I think I'm good enough at what I do to thrive even in an international job market (I charge $50 an hour despite plenty of cheap foreign competition), but if I can't, well, I'll bite the bullet and take a lower standard of living. You can't go around demanding that people with game be kept out of something just because they're not from here. If they have game, they have game. This 'took our jobs' stuff is really similar to feminists always trying to get special privileges over men by throwing tantrums. I never understood even the desire for those kinds of privileges. Isn't it a little embarrassing to have something you didn't earn?

I think you've misunderstood the dynamic going on here.

These people aren't what they say they are. Their backgrounds and resumes are lies. They are perpetuating a race to the bottom.

Its one thing for fair, open competition. Its another when one side is playing by the rules and the other lies thru their teeth.

For example; I see resumes that say dudes have 5+ years of Twitter Bootstrap in a total career of 8 years. 1. Twitter bootstrap hasnt even accepted as a mainstream JS library for that long. 2. Do i need to go on?

And 99% arent living in SF working for the big Tech Giants. They are in Oklahoma working for Conoco, they are working for Monsanto, Citi, Fidelity, NBC, IPG, Teva, etc, etc.

They are cheaper cogs that lied to become cogs. If their backgrounds where properly vetted, they'd whither on the vine.

I don't think anyone in their right mind is suggesting "Talent controls" where the most talented aren't allowed to work because they are from another country.

Competition is great but when its rigged and false, you got problems.

[greekgod]

(01-31-2016 01:32 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I'm interested in this. Can you guys post some numbers/statistics? Just how many percent of tech workers in US are foreigners? How many companies/associations outshore tech service? How much cheaper is off-shoring? And how bad is this for a new IT grad in USA?

Its not the entry level roles. The cost of a 22 year old american pales in comparison to a consultant on a visa (60/HR minimum, 120K annualized.

Its the mid level 7-15 year roles that are on a fire sale. However, the indians taking these roles are closer to being college aged (24-28) so they are completely unsettling the market.

Tracking down those numbers will be tough. Ill look into it.