[Avant-Garde]

(01-26-2016 11:47 AM)the Thing Wrote:  

The question "Why are these Indians getting paid $120k a year when Americans aren't?" makes absolutely no sense on a red pill forum.

Because they're saving money. The market/normal salary for American workers would have been $160-180 or higher.

[Peregrine]

I define "red pill" as the uncomfortable truth. The (likely) truth here is that H1Bs and outsourcing of IT will continue/accelerate. Avant-Garde, you're advocating an MRA approach. I'm advocating an RVF/adaptive approach. Identify whether you're a rock star immune to outsourcing or an average IT guy who should find a new industry.

[MrLemon]

These companies aren't saving a dime. The H1b workers are total crap. They take 3X longer to do anything. No, seriously, it's so obvious. Many, many companies have learned this and IF THEY CAN have very quietly fired their H1B staff.

The problem is, at large companies...healthcare, utilities, banks ... the H1bs have taken over so completely that you cannot dislodge them. If you fired them and tried to hire other workers...your website crashes because the code is jury-rigged and full of little traps. I'm not bullshitting, really, the management knows they are trapped and they have to keep hiring more and more of these shitty programmers (from the big consulting firms like Tata, that procure them by the thousands).

It's not because the overseas workers are "cheaper". It's because they have squeezed in on fake resumes, then your management is hooked, like getting addicted to drugs, and pretty soon you are unable to get rid of them.

You should see some of these companies. Little groups of H1bs huddle around in corners, talking in their language. When you ask them to finish the project, they stare at you with this look ... "fuck you, we'll do it when we are ready". The managers literally just crawl away like dogs, unable to do anything because they can't control their own department.

"The market" cannot take care of this. More education for US workers can't take care of this because the H1bs will just falsify their resumes even more. They are bringing credentials which are NOT real, but the US system of employment is unable to account for this.

This is like monopolies and rigged markets...they distort the normal market and make it impossible for fair competition.

Also, there is SO MUCH money flowing out of the country. The big consulting firms pour hundreds of millions of US money into creating programming schools in India. They are training people for a few weeks, giving them fake resumes, and sending them over. They arrange for them to share apartments and buy cheap cars. We're talking entire cities.

Meanwhile that money is *not* going into US schools to train programmers in large quantities in our own countries. We can't hire people from Ohio who need the work, because we've let our training infrastructure collapse, because we're sending all that money overseas.

Close the H1b program. That's it. Shut it down. Re-route the billions into training and procurement of American college students. Not complex at all.

People think the H1-b offshoring trend is inevitable. Not at all, it's easy to stop. It's called "borders" guys and that's why nations exist. It's just like getting a drug addict un-addicted. You have to force it, will never happen by itself.

(And no, all the tech companies will *not* move to other countries, that's total bullshit...they all want to come HERE not leave.)

[greekgod]

(02-04-2016 08:24 AM)Avant-Garde Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:13 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

It happens because everything in a company is run on a quarterly performance basis. Even capital projects are subject to companies hitting their EPS numbers to keep Wall Street happy.

You hit the nail on the head. These public companies are pressured to perform otherwise their stock tanks. The question is: how to fix this so that American workers aren't shafted and companies still perform well. Hard to do since it's a short term window (quarterly).

-greekgod,

What's up with the bullet list of 'requirements'? I've applied to jobs where I meet most or all their requirements and I won't even get a response.

This is another symptom of H1s flooding the market. The human eye can't filter through that many resumes. Its daunting. Its partially why I have a job. The world is very complex and every hiring team is overwhelmed with vetting quality in a sea of shit.

[greekgod]

(02-04-2016 07:27 AM)Avant-Garde Wrote:  

greekgod,

I appreciate your posts and dropping the industry knowledge. It blows away all the bs the pro-mass immigration/corruption camp posted. I do have a question: I get contacted by so many indian recruiters, I get like 20-30 emails a day, whereas I might get 1-3 from an American recruiter. These indians will say that they found my resume on a job board and send a job description in the email for a job in a city that's totally far away from my location, which I state in my job board profile. They'll also ask me to send in a Word copy of my resume and an hourly rate quote. What's going on here? Are they fishing for higher quotes that they can present along with their own lower quoted candidates?

-AG

What you are asking about is essentially layers and third parties.

The traditional staffing model is client, staffing agency, and consultant. Now with more indian firms leaching off the business and holding so many visas staffing agencies release reqs to them. The indian firm will then go pound the job boards and present US Cits/GCs they find. They pawn them off as their own.

They try to take a $20-30/hr cut but since they have zero skin in the game you can get them to go as low as a $2-5/hr margin.

Its just another layer of bullshit.

70% of my company has a standing rule that if firm doesnt hold your visa, ie the consultant is already on their payroll as an H1, we don't work with them. I always ask if they are on the payroll. And, never take US citz or gcs from indian firms. They won't be accountable and many times are late on their payrolls if anything goes wrong.

I just dealt with this today. A resume was sent to me by a third party. The resume looked good so I called up the third party. He of course said, "ok, please send me the job description & client name and Ill send you his updated resume along with contact details" This is the first red flag. They want to take the job description and tailor the resume to the description to "cook" the presentation. I never send the job descriptions and just say give me the contact details.

I finally talk to the guy and get to the bottom of it. Turns out he is employed by TCS and wants to make a move. The firm doesn't currently hold his visa but if we get an offer theyll initiate the transfer. Of course he won't be starting in 2-3 weeks but 5-7 because the transfer takes time and the consultants only give notice once the transfer is fully complete. Net, net he works for a consulting firm and the third party is just fishing.

I told him well take him on or find him a full time role effectively cutting out the third party. Hes ok with this because they havent done shit for him.

But to highlight the main part of your question, never work with a third party firm. This isn't to say don't work with a recruiter with an indian name, many of them are awesome. Just ensure the relationship with the client is free of layers.

[MrLemon]

(02-04-2016 11:59 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

(02-04-2016 07:27 AM)Avant-Garde Wrote:  

greekgod,

I appreciate your posts and dropping the industry knowledge. It blows away all the bs the pro-mass immigration/corruption camp posted. I do have a question: I get contacted by so many indian recruiters, I get like 20-30 emails a day, whereas I might get 1-3 from an American recruiter. These indians will say that they found my resume on a job board and send a job description in the email for a job in a city that's totally far away from my location, which I state in my job board profile. They'll also ask me to send in a Word copy of my resume and an hourly rate quote. What's going on here? Are they fishing for higher quotes that they can present along with their own lower quoted candidates?

-AG

What you are asking about is essentially layers and third parties.

The traditional staffing model is client, staffing agency, and consultant. Now with more indian firms leaching off the business and holding so many visas staffing agencies release reqs to them. The indian firm will then go pound the job boards and present US Cits/GCs they find. They pawn them off as their own.

They try to take a $20-30/hr cut but since they have zero skin in the game you can get them to go as low as a $2-5/hr margin.

Its just another layer of bullshit.

70% of my company has a standing rule that if firm doesnt hold your visa, ie the consultant is already on their payroll as an H1, we don't work with them. I always ask if they are on the payroll. And, never take US citz or gcs from indian firms. They won't be accountable and many times are late on their payrolls if anything goes wrong.

I just dealt with this today. A resume was sent to me by a third party. The resume looked good so I called up the third party. He of course said, "ok, please send me the job description & client name and Ill send you his updated resume along with contact details" This is the first red flag. They want to take the job description and tailor the resume to the description to "cook" the presentation. I never send the job descriptions and just say give me the contact details.

I finally talk to the guy and get to the bottom of it. Turns out he is employed by TCS and wants to make a move. The firm doesn't currently hold his visa but if we get an offer theyll initiate the transfer. Of course he won't be starting in 2-3 weeks but 5-7 because the transfer takes time and the consultants only give notice once the transfer is fully complete. Net, net he works for a consulting firm and the third party is just fishing.

I told him well take him on or find him a full time role effectively cutting out the third party. Hes ok with this because they havent done shit for him.

But to highlight the main part of your question, never work with a third party firm. This isn't to say don't work with a recruiter with an indian name, many of them are awesome. Just ensure the relationship with the client is free of layers.

That's a great description of the layers of bullshit that have been layered on "top" of the American hiring process by overseas staffing agencies.

But let's get to the point. These are aggressive parasites with an infinite capacity to game the system. You don't negotiate with them...you remove them. Otherwise, you die.

[greekgod]

More or less, yes. There are value add firms but they are 1 in 100 or 200.

How do I know they are legit? They don't sell me, speak plainly, and let the facts speak for themselves. Their product is in demand.

If anyone has 50k laying around, you should incorporate and go buy a guy from Accenture India. Add one or two a year and in five years time you have a nice 500k-1mil a year in profit. And if you treat those guys right, they'll take bullets.

[Blaster]

(01-27-2016 11:21 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

Ok, I wrote this up last night and wanted to comb through it one time. This is a snapshot of what I see on a daily basis as a tech recruiter. I tried not to get bogged down in technicalities of the minutia more focused on painting the big picture..

Excellent post, but I have one small nitpick:

Quote:

When employed by a big consulting firm, visa IT workers, lets just stick with developers for arguments sake, are being billed out at a rate of no less than $125/HR which equates to annual cost of 250K. These rates can go much higher. The average US IT workers salary is between 85-130K. The average salary for consulting worker is between 65-95K (+the H1 filing process costs a few thousand) which is less employment cost for labor to the employer but because there are now profits involved in the equation, the client ends up paying substantially more. Outsourcing is already operating at a huge loss. Additionally, the knowledge doesn’t stay with the organization that paid for it. So when Raju from Accenture gets put on a new project, his knowledge goes with him and poof goes the value. Yes there is documentation but lets be real, its not good and done in a way for the long term. The Fortune 1000 corp and consulting firm know the terms of the agreement when they get into it.

Contrasting a worker salary to a billed consulting rate gives a misleading picture about the actual relative costs. For most employers, the fully loaded labor cost of a Full-Time Employee is significantly higher than the gross salary. An FTE's actual cost can be anywhere from 50% to 100% more than the salary.

[greekgod]

Blaster, you are correct, FTE costs can go up to 50% of salary or higher. It is still less than an hourly consultant, always.

However, relative costs ignore the biggest thing, relative value. In a knowledge based economy, you want to create systems that retain valuable knowledge long term.

[greekgod]

This doozey ended up in my inbox today; enjoy.

---------------------------------------------------------

I would like to share one great profile with you, he having 18 years of experience in IT and now looking for new Project manager role around the nation. Please let me know if you have any open positon recently for him. Attached is his work profile and below the note from him.


“Hello, my name is ____ _____ ____. I did my engineering degree from ____ University, MS, India in summer 1997. Since then I have been working in technology and management spread across sever domains such as Insurance, Manufacturing, Banking, Health Care etc. Over the last 18 years I have been a technology person with a large inclination towards management. I have several management credentials such as PMP (Project Management Professional), C.P.M. (Certified Purchasing Manager) and Price 2 practitioner. Technology wise, I have been in ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) and web technologies most of the time.

Work made me meet diverse people across the globe and exposed me to diverse cultures. I have worked in Japan, USA, Mexico and Dubai for a long time.

Interest wise, I spend a lot of time on reading ancient Vedic scriptures, and understanding the completeness on the ancient scriptures. I read a lot on astronomy and the existence of dual world - one being the material world and the other non-material world. It exposes the fact that - if there is energy, then there must be an energetic source. As a result, nothing happen by-chance and there is a reason for everything. It’s not necessary that we exactly know the reason, however the reason exists. So there exist a non-material world which is full of bliss, knowledge and eternity. “

[greekgod]

Big deal; Sessions isn't fucking around.

FEB 25 2016
SESSIONS DELIVERS OPENING STATEMENT ON HIGH-SKILLED IMMIGRATION: DATA EXPOSES ‘MYTH’ OF AMERICAN STEM WORKER SHORTAGE
WASHINGTON—U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL), Chairman of the Subcommittee on Immigration and The National Interest, today issued the following statement on the impacts of high-skilled immigration on American workers:

“Thank you to everyone for being here today, and thank you Senator Durbin for serving as ranking member. This hearing will focus on the impact of high-skilled immigration on U.S. workers.

Last month, Barron’s reported that financial analysts expect information technology companies will cut at least 330,000 jobs this year – news that has become all too familiar in recent years.

Yet the CEOs and those aligned with the business lobby continue to perpetuate the myth that there is a shortage of talented U.S. workers to fill positions in technology and other high-skilled employment sectors.

Indeed, a letter sent to President Obama and congressional leaders in 2013 by a number of tech companies made the assertion that ‘one of the biggest economic challenges facing our nation is the need for more qualified, highly-skilled professionals, domestic and foreign, who can create jobs and immediately contribute to and improve our economy.’ But many of those same companies had just recently cut thousands of American jobs, and they have continued to cut thousands of jobs since then.

Nevertheless, the claims of a shortage of workers continue. As a lobbyist for Qualcomm claimed just last year, “although our industry and other high-tech industries have grown exponentially, our immigration system has failed to keep pace.” Just a few weeks later, Qualcomm announced that it would cut its workforce by 15 percent – roughly 5,000 jobs. And earlier this month, it was reported that Yahoo is cutting approximately 1,500 jobs.

These corporations have spent hundreds of millions – if not billions – of dollars lobbying for bills that would bring in a massive amount of foreign workers to the United States, like the Gang of Eight, which was soundly rejected by the House of Representatives and the American people. Yet the push for more so-called “high-skill” workers continues.

Today, we will hear the facts. The data shows that there is no shortage of highly qualified working American professionals, nor is there a shortage of American STEM college graduates every year.

The sad reality is that – not only is there not a shortage of exceptionally qualified U.S. workers – but across the country thousands of U.S. workers are being replaced by foreign labor. The picture next to me is from Northeast Utilities – a company based in Connecticut and now known as Eversource – that announced that it was going to lay off employees in its IT department, and hired outside companies that used H-1B employees to provide its IT services. These U.S. workers were forced to train their foreign replacements, and were silenced by Northeast Utilities. According to one of these workers who contacted my staff and requested to remain anonymous for fear of retaliation, ‘the only way that we could make a statement was by placing small American flags outside of our cubicles and aisles. Gradually, as we got replaced by the H-1Bs, the flags disappeared as we did.’

The fight for changes that serve the interests of the American people has begun here in the United States Senate. I am a cosponsor of S. 2266, the H-1B and L-1 Visa Reform Act of 2015, which has been introduced by Senators Grassley and Durbin – who have tirelessly fought for reform of these high-tech visa programs. In December, I joined Senator Cruz in introducing S. 2394, the American Jobs First Act of 2015 – a bill that would stop the abuses we are seeing in our immigration system and protect the interests of the U.S. worker. I have also joined with Senator Nelson in introducing S. 2365, the Protecting American Jobs Act. With that, we’ll turn to the ranking member for an opening statement.”

Permalink: http://www.sessions.senate.gov/public/in...r-shortage

[Avant-Garde]

(02-05-2016 09:15 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

If anyone has 50k laying around, you should incorporate and go buy a guy from Accenture India. Add one or two a year and in five years time you have a nice 500k-1mil a year in profit.

Can you expand on this? Are you talking about starting a US based consultancy where one does the sales/pitching to US companies and the tech portion is done by the Indian in India (remotely)?

[Avant-Garde]

Quote:

When employed by a big consulting firm, visa IT workers, lets just stick with developers for arguments sake, are being billed out at a rate of no less than $125/HR which equates to annual cost of 250K. These rates can go much higher. The average US IT workers salary is between 85-130K. The average salary for consulting worker is between 65-95K (+the H1 filing process costs a few thousand) which is less employment cost for labor to the employer but because there are now profits involved in the equation, the client ends up paying substantially more.

greekgod,

Can you post up some numbers on these hourly rates for major cities or areas (Silicon Valley, LA/OC, Seattle, Manhattan, Austin..) for senior devs and team leads with 15-20 years of experience? I get all these Indian recruiters emailing me about these jobs and quoting from $50-90 per hour. I quote them back the rate of $125/hr, then never hear back from them or they bow out and say that can't do that rate. Maybe b/c I'm a US citizen and these rates are for visa IT workers?

-AG

[ThrustMaster]

Hah this thread is outdated (at least the OP is). The Russians and Ukrainians are the new threat...theyre no longer just in organized crime, QA or truck driving...

[Brodiaga]

(03-05-2016 08:18 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

Hah this thread is outdated (at least the OP is). The Russians and Ukrainians are the new threat...theyre no longer just in organized crime, QA or truck driving...

Not really. Just look at the numbers. Over a billion Indians, many of them speak good English. 1.5 billion Chinese, some of them former British colonies as well. How many Russians and Ukrainians? Maybe 200 million if that. The vast majority of them don't speak good English unless they've spent many years abroad.

Another thing is tribalism. Indians support each other, so do Chinese, perhaps to a lesser extent. Many Russians abroad would rather hire someone else than one of their own.

[Brodiaga]

(02-17-2016 03:38 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

This doozey ended up in my inbox today; enjoy.

---------------------------------------------------------

I would like to share one great profile with you, he having 18 years of experience in IT and now looking for new Project manager role around the nation. Please let me know if you have any open positon recently for him. Attached is his work profile and below the note from him.


“Hello, my name is ____ _____ ____. I did my engineering degree from ____ University, MS, India in summer 1997. Since then I have been working in technology and management spread across sever domains such as Insurance, Manufacturing, Banking, Health Care etc. Over the last 18 years I have been a technology person with a large inclination towards management. I have several management credentials such as PMP (Project Management Professional), C.P.M. (Certified Purchasing Manager) and Price 2 practitioner. Technology wise, I have been in ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) and web technologies most of the time.

Work made me meet diverse people across the globe and exposed me to diverse cultures. I have worked in Japan, USA, Mexico and Dubai for a long time.

Interest wise, I spend a lot of time on reading ancient Vedic scriptures, and understanding the completeness on the ancient scriptures. I read a lot on astronomy and the existence of dual world - one being the material world and the other non-material world. It exposes the fact that - if there is energy, then there must be an energetic source. As a result, nothing happen by-chance and there is a reason for everything. It’s not necessary that we exactly know the reason, however the reason exists. So there exist a non-material world which is full of bliss, knowledge and eternity. “

If this guy is not bullshitting, he seems like an interesting candidate. For one thing, he wasn't afraid to live and work in countries like Japan and the Emirates where Indians are at the bottom of the pile pretty much. He can also make an interesting conversation partner based on his philosophical thoughts. Would I rather work with him or some vapid stuck up bitch who is hired as a Project Manager to fill the female quota? Unfortunately, these are the choices many people have to make these days in the corporate environment.

[Onto]

(03-05-2016 07:26 PM)Avant-Garde Wrote:  

Quote:

When employed by a big consulting firm, visa IT workers, lets just stick with developers for arguments sake, are being billed out at a rate of no less than $125/HR which equates to annual cost of 250K. These rates can go much higher. The average US IT workers salary is between 85-130K. The average salary for consulting worker is between 65-95K (+the H1 filing process costs a few thousand) which is less employment cost for labor to the employer but because there are now profits involved in the equation, the client ends up paying substantially more.

greekgod,

Can you post up some numbers on these hourly rates for major cities or areas (Silicon Valley, LA/OC, Seattle, Manhattan, Austin..) for senior devs and team leads with 15-20 years of experience? I get all these Indian recruiters emailing me about these jobs and quoting from $50-90 per hour. I quote them back the rate of $125/hr, then never hear back from them or they bow out and say that can't do that rate. Maybe b/c I'm a US citizen and these rates are for visa IT workers?

-AG

In Manhattan, getting $125/hr is doable but some industries can't pay it. Finance can, more specifically hedge-funds. Also the overall market at the time plays a factor. Recruiters will go for the cheapest guy possible so they can make as much for themselves as possible.

Indian recruiters would prefer an Indian get the job. My experience with them has been the same as yours. I get a lot of email requests for my resume/rate, but most of it is just spam. Some auto-email that gets mass sent in the hopes of collecting people's resume, rates, social security numbers, etc.

I've found American recruiters give the best rates. I've never been able to get good rates through Indian recruiters so I don't even associate with them anymore. They are a waste of time in my opinion.

[Onto]

(03-05-2016 08:52 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

(02-17-2016 03:38 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

This doozey ended up in my inbox today; enjoy.

---------------------------------------------------------

I would like to share one great profile with you, he having 18 years of experience in IT and now looking for new Project manager role around the nation. Please let me know if you have any open positon recently for him. Attached is his work profile and below the note from him.


“Hello, my name is ____ _____ ____. I did my engineering degree from ____ University, MS, India in summer 1997. Since then I have been working in technology and management spread across sever domains such as Insurance, Manufacturing, Banking, Health Care etc. Over the last 18 years I have been a technology person with a large inclination towards management. I have several management credentials such as PMP (Project Management Professional), C.P.M. (Certified Purchasing Manager) and Price 2 practitioner. Technology wise, I have been in ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) and web technologies most of the time.

Work made me meet diverse people across the globe and exposed me to diverse cultures. I have worked in Japan, USA, Mexico and Dubai for a long time.

Interest wise, I spend a lot of time on reading ancient Vedic scriptures, and understanding the completeness on the ancient scriptures. I read a lot on astronomy and the existence of dual world - one being the material world and the other non-material world. It exposes the fact that - if there is energy, then there must be an energetic source. As a result, nothing happen by-chance and there is a reason for everything. It’s not necessary that we exactly know the reason, however the reason exists. So there exist a non-material world which is full of bliss, knowledge and eternity. “

If this guy is not bullshitting, he seems like an interesting candidate. For one thing, he wasn't afraid to live and work in countries like Japan and the Emirates where Indians are at the bottom of the pile pretty much. He can also make an interesting conversation partner based on his philosophical thoughts. Would I rather work with him or some vapid stuck up bitch who is hired as a Project Manager to fill the female quota? Unfortunately, these are the choices many people have to make these days in the corporate environment.

Yes, but how does he smell?

[El Chinito loco]

(03-05-2016 08:57 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(03-05-2016 08:52 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

(02-17-2016 03:38 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

This doozey ended up in my inbox today; enjoy.

---------------------------------------------------------

I would like to share one great profile with you, he having 18 years of experience in IT and now looking for new Project manager role around the nation. Please let me know if you have any open positon recently for him. Attached is his work profile and below the note from him.


“Hello, my name is ____ _____ ____. I did my engineering degree from ____ University, MS, India in summer 1997. Since then I have been working in technology and management spread across sever domains such as Insurance, Manufacturing, Banking, Health Care etc. Over the last 18 years I have been a technology person with a large inclination towards management. I have several management credentials such as PMP (Project Management Professional), C.P.M. (Certified Purchasing Manager) and Price 2 practitioner. Technology wise, I have been in ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) and web technologies most of the time.

Work made me meet diverse people across the globe and exposed me to diverse cultures. I have worked in Japan, USA, Mexico and Dubai for a long time.

Interest wise, I spend a lot of time on reading ancient Vedic scriptures, and understanding the completeness on the ancient scriptures. I read a lot on astronomy and the existence of dual world - one being the material world and the other non-material world. It exposes the fact that - if there is energy, then there must be an energetic source. As a result, nothing happen by-chance and there is a reason for everything. It’s not necessary that we exactly know the reason, however the reason exists. So there exist a non-material world which is full of bliss, knowledge and eternity. “

If this guy is not bullshitting, he seems like an interesting candidate. For one thing, he wasn't afraid to live and work in countries like Japan and the Emirates where Indians are at the bottom of the pile pretty much. He can also make an interesting conversation partner based on his philosophical thoughts. Would I rather work with him or some vapid stuck up bitch who is hired as a Project Manager to fill the female quota? Unfortunately, these are the choices many people have to make these days in the corporate environment.

Yes, but how does he smell?

[greekgod]

You are only getting $125 if its outside the vendor management system and the requirement sits with a senior manager or director who is getting some serious shit from higherups.

Also, the system better be directly linked to revenue or cost savings and be able to plainly show. Finance, CRMs, ERP Architects, Large scale data work, and of course, algo/quants.

If you are seeing $125/hr its costing the client at least $160-170/hr if not much more. Also, you better be incorporated if you want that much or you are loosing 15% burdens on payroll/w2/the weird NYC pto withholdings tax.

[Avant-Garde]

(03-06-2016 12:29 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

You are only getting $125 if its outside the vendor management system and the requirement sits with a senior manager or director who is getting some serious shit from higherups.

Also, the system better be directly linked to revenue or cost savings and be able to plainly show. Finance, CRMs, ERP Architects, Large scale data work, and of course, algo/quants.

If you are seeing $125/hr its costing the client at least $160-170/hr if not much more. Also, you better be incorporated if you want that much or you are loosing 15% burdens on payroll/w2/the weird NYC pto withholdings tax.

Have you heard of dev or engineer talent agents like 10X Mgmt (10xmanagement.com)? They claim to get top devs $150-250 per hour. There's also Toptal who claim to only hire the top 3% devs though I heard their rates are lower as they hire outside the US.

[Jackreacher]

Sorry but I can't agree with the OP in any way shape or form. If I was forced to hire anyone or any group of people at "the point of a gun" I'd burn my organization to the ground. If I make a business(not a non profit organization) it is to serve my interests, not the interests of self entitled human beings who believe they have a right to work for me even if I don't want them to. If I'm paying for it I should be the one to choose, not them. Does the OP wish for communism? My parents are from Cuba, in that country a lot of things when it comes to businesses were done at "the point of a gun" as a result businesses are almost non existent, corrupt and just about everyone is fighting just to get enough food for their families all this because of the governments involvement by putting businessmen "at the point of a gun". I heard North Korea is a wonderful place to live in if one wishes to be held at the point of a gun if your organization does not hire it's country's citizens. Maybe go live there. I always believe if you don't like the way a country conducts its business you're better off going elsewhere to greener pastures. So North Korea would be a good bet.

[MrLemon]

(03-11-2016 12:29 PM)Jackreacher Wrote:  

Sorry but I can't agree with the OP in any way shape or form. If I was forced to hire anyone or any group of people at "the point of a gun" I'd burn my organization to the ground. If I make a business(not a non profit organization) it is to serve my interests, not the interests of self entitled human beings who believe they have a right to work for me even if I don't want them to. If I'm paying for it I should be the one to choose, not them. Does the OP wish for communism? My parents are from Cuba, in that country a lot of things when it comes to businesses were done at "the point of a gun" as a result businesses are almost non existent, corrupt and just about everyone is fighting just to get enough food for their families all this because of the governments involvement by putting businessmen "at the point of a gun". I heard North Korea is a wonderful place to live in if one wishes to be held at the point of a gun if your organization does not hire it's country's citizens. Maybe go live there. I always believe if you don't like the way a country conducts its business you're better off going elsewhere to greener pastures. So North Korea would be a good bet.

OK Jackreacher, those are good points. We don't want to end up like Cuba.

So, what do we do to ensure that 50 million unemployed people from the Midwest don't start a civil war? Do we just ignore them and pretend they all don't exist, until they riot, grab control of the US Military, and use the US nuclear arsenal to threaten the existence of the planet?

Or, they vote for Trump, and they empower Trump to point guns at Google and Facebook?

I mean, really we're not talking about Cuba. Cuba is a puny little island that has nothing. It's barely the size of my home town. The US is like, 4000X bigger and we have enough nuclear weapons to kill every man, woman, child, cat, bird, and mouse on the planet.

Seriously, what's your suggestion? I'm willing to compromise if you can provide a real plan for preventing the coming disaster.

[262]

^ Cynical three-step solution:

1) Make political promises, but don't actually do them, because you'll ... (see the next point)
2) Divert their attention with mindless entertainment and/or outrage: Facebook, Kim Kardashian, man-spreading, etc.
3) For those whose attention isn't diverted, just buy them off with welfare, since that makes them dependent on the government.

On point 3, favorable regulations, like forcing companies to hire Americans at gunpoint, isn't a great substitute for welfare, because it doesn't make Americans as dependent on the government.

Of course, point 3 eventually runs out of steam when the funds for welfare dry up, but at that point, companies like Google and Facebook will have long since gone abroad (lest they too have their resources fully drained into welfare).

[Edmund Ironside]

I'm late to find this important thread, but here are some thoughts from someone with (more than I want to admit) years of experience:

-Some free market advocates are assuming a level of management competence that just isn't there. I'm not talking about valley tech giants - not my area. I've been employed in IT by middling to huge companies in various industries over the years and the management in general is worse than I ever could have believed without seeing it firsthand.

-You can't easily compare US vs H1B wages since no one really knows where wages would be without the influx of H1Bs. The market price impact of vastly increasing the labor supply is huge.

-On competence of H1Bs, there is also a practice of initially sending someone competent, later replacing them with lower quality. Seen it many times over.

-Good comments on missed experience, and knowledge transfer is not just individual. Over time the foreign groups gain more higher level experience, and industry knowledge, and sometimes eventually start competing companies. All of this is transfer of knowledge that was built in the US over generations, to the benefit of someone's short term numbers. Free market ideals (which I share to a big extent) really only work domestically. The playing field isn't level when you go international. I used to be a lot more libertarian when I was younger, and I now know I was naive, especially about the problems with international corporations.