[greekgod]

(01-31-2016 02:45 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

(01-27-2016 11:21 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

When employed by a big consulting firm, visa IT workers, lets just stick with developers for arguments sake, are being billed out at a rate of no less than $125/HR which equates to annual cost of 250K. These rates can go much higher. The average US IT workers salary is between 85-130K. The average salary for consulting worker is between 65-95K (+the H1 filing process costs a few thousand) which is less employment cost for labor to the employer but because there are now profits involved in the equation, the client ends up paying substantially more. Outsourcing is already operating at a huge loss. Additionally, the knowledge doesn’t stay with the organization that paid for it. So when Raju from Accenture gets put on a new project, his knowledge goes with him and poof goes the value. Yes there is documentation but lets be real, its not good and done in a way for the long term. The Fortune 1000 corp and consulting firm know the terms of the agreement when they get into it.

I understand why a company would be ok with $125/HR for a H1B for say 6 month until a project is complete and then they are done with them. My question is how does it make financial sense to outsource entire departments full time to a contracting company. For example Sancho posted above a story about Disney IT employees to training their H1B replacements. Are these long term strategic cost cutting plays by upper management to eventually have a skelton crew physically in the U.S. and then have an offshore team in India making pennies on the dollar doing the bulk of the work? So the in the long term the company saves on salary, rising health benefit costs, 401ks..etc?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/las...ments.html

Well, the fixed cost goes down so much. Orgs dont have to worry about salary, PTO severance, HR & payroll costs go down, bye bye bonuses, and training costs subsist. Yeah, they have a higher hourly cost but if the company needs to shore up funds, they can cut it in a heartbeat. If the worker is off, the PTO and time comes from the consulting firm. If the project team is fucking up, well there are 10 more consulting firms willing to take on the work.

Funny story though, one day I was talking to a guy from Shell. He works on their O&G trading platform which at the time was handling a $1billion/day. Huge implications for their top and bottom line numbers.

One Friday, some offshore guy from Infosys, I think it was them, brought the whole system down. Everyone spent the next 48 hours trying to get it back up and running for Monday because if it wasn't; the CEO would be in that room real fucking quick.

Typing this out now, its clear the US guys should have said, nope, you fix it.

After that, he said the whole tune changed and there was a big push to get away from the offshore model.

[greekgod]

A few other points, FB and Google aren't your problems. Its consulting firms like Tata, Cognizant, Infosys, Wipro, Mahindra, HCL, etc, etc that go around installing colonies of these frauds all over. And its places like "insert major employer here in your area" that are happy to do so.

It happens because everything in a company is run on a quarterly performance basis. Even capital projects are subject to companies hitting their EPS numbers to keep Wall Street happy. I'm sure if you look long enough, you can trace this shit back to the Street and most likely Goldman in some way.

Just to be clear, talent is talent. If its real talent and can't be found anywhere else, the person should get a look.

However, this isnt the case, imagine this;

Education section on a resume doesnt list a graduation date or institution that they graduated from.

There is no history in the home country, all years of experience took place in the US.

All experience is at the most recognizable names in the economy.

The bullets of each employer/project read like this:

•Involved in the Analysis, System study and designing of the project.
•Developing webpages using HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, JQuery, Angular JS Bootstrap, JSP and JSON.
•Experience in using Bootstrap which can easily manipulate modal windowsalerts, tooltips, scroll spy, pop over, button, type head, etc.
•Used various bootstrap components like accordion, date picker, time picker, alert, buttons, modal etc.
•Experience in using ng-grid for rendering rows and columns.
•Experience in using rest web services using spring, spring MVCand Apache CXF and also used to get Images, cached information from database.
•Experience in using GIT for pulling and committing the developed contentfrom/to the GIT repository.
•Good experience of debugging JavaScript, CSS3 and HTML5 code.
•Sound Understanding and good Experience with genogram and timeline using Think Map.
•Worked on Angular of UI and Life Ray portlet.
•Defined new validations through Angular.js for the form field validationimplemented through HTML5.
•Had an experience working on agile methodology and also trained.
•Used Grunt for building the project.
•Experience working on IBM WebSphere Portal and WebSphere Application Server environments.
•Designed applications that execute on various browsers such as InternetExplorer, Mozilla Firefox, Google Chrome, and Opera using various debugging tools like Firebugs/IE Developer Tools.
•Highly Curious about new front-end development technologies andthoroughly mastering them with a keen awareness of new industry developments and the evolution of programming solutions.
•Involved in Understanding functional specifications and developing creativesolutions to meet business requirements.
•Follow up with the development team on the improvements, integration andfurther enhancements in the website.
• To release the enhancements within the specified timeline communicated.

Environment: HTML4/5, CSS2/3, JavaScript, Ajax, JSON, JSP, JQuery, Angular.js, XML, SQL, PL/SQL, agile, Windows, GIT, Life Ray ide Eclipse, Life Ray Portlet, REST Web Services, IBM WebSphere Portal, WebSphere application server, maven tool.


Its boiler plate and fully fraudlent.

I've had these guys on the verge of tears before because they know they can't lie their way out of it.

I'll wipe/scrub a funny, telling email from last week and post it here just to show how deep this bullshit goes.

[Peregrine]

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

Edit: The way I see it, if H1Bs/outsourcing produces unacceptably inferior results, then the jobs will eventually be given back to Americans at the higher price point they demand. If H1Bs/outsourcing produces acceptable results, then salaries will go down to meet market reality.

[MrLemon]

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

If H1Bs/outsourcing produces acceptable results, then salaries will go down to meet market reality.

Nope, it doesn't work that way.

[El Chinito loco]

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

I've seen this type of argument brought up before in favor of outsourcing. The thing is you can always choose which consumer goods you want to buy and no one needs 3 tvs, cheap furniture, and a whole house full of cheap plastic crap made everywhere except the U.S.

I am not living in the U.S. at the moment but I would absolutely be willing to pay higher prices for consumer goods if it meant the lower and middle class Americans benefited from non stagnant wages, higher employment, and better standard of living by not outsourcing everything.

[Onto]

The end clients (Google, JP Morgan, Untied Healthcare, and a 1,000+ other companies) only get so many H1B's and I suspect they use those more sparingly.

What these end clients mostly do is use Indian consulting firms like InfoSys, WiPro, and non-Indian ones as well for a lot of their work. As already mentioned, the consulting company will charge the client $125/hr.

Where the skilled American software guy gets fucked is that the consulting companies will pre-select the candidates based upon how much profit they can make off them. If the profit margin is the same they go with their own nationality (Indian), because they are naturally racist people. So the consulting companies scramble to get those H1B's for $30/hr, coach them to interview and only show the client those resumes. That's a $95/hr profit to them! And the H1B guy can never go to another company, they must stay with their master.

Also these consulting companies do "project" work where they will develop a system for a client for say, $10 million. Now it's up to the consulting company to meet the deliverables but they can hire anyone they want to do the work. Of course, they want the cheapest people possible who can still get the job done just enough to satisfy the deliverable.

Even with all the "competition", I'm still able to get, as an S-Corp, most of that $125/hr, but it's getting harder every year, and I have to move from one big city to the next to get it, and only when it's a hot labor market. What's more, many consulting companies won't do C2C anymore. This further drives Americans pay downwards.

Of course, all the Indian consulting firms have thousands of people in India also slaving away. IBM, Goldman, etc all have their own IT offices in India with thousands of workers.

[Peregrine]

(01-31-2016 08:24 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

If H1Bs/outsourcing produces acceptable results, then salaries will go down to meet market reality.

Nope, it doesn't work that way.

Why not?

(01-31-2016 08:24 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

I've seen this type of argument brought up before in favor of outsourcing. The thing is you can always choose which consumer goods you want to buy and no one needs 3 tvs, cheap furniture, and a whole house full of cheap plastic crap made everywhere except the U.S.

I am not living in the U.S. at the moment but I would absolutely be willing to pay higher prices for consumer goods if it meant the lower and middle class Americans benefited from non stagnant wages, higher employment, and better standard of living by not outsourcing everything.

That's fair. However, you're in the minority. The rest of us prefer lower prices on consumer goods.

[JacksonRev]

(01-31-2016 08:27 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:24 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

I've seen this type of argument brought up before in favor of outsourcing. The thing is you can always choose which consumer goods you want to buy and no one needs 3 tvs, cheap furniture, and a whole house full of cheap plastic crap made everywhere except the U.S.

I am not living in the U.S. at the moment but I would absolutely be willing to pay higher prices for consumer goods if it meant the lower and middle class Americans benefited from non stagnant wages, higher employment, and better standard of living by not outsourcing everything.

That's fair. However, you're in the minority. The rest of us prefer lower prices on consumer goods.

What? Trump is the most popular man on RVF and in the US, and is a staunch nationalist and protectionist.

People don't want cheap, throwaway crap as the driving force of the economy. They want a life for their family and country that is worth living in, not just existing in. So we'll see what the majority wants in November.

[Neo]

Greekgod and others this seems like an excellent topic for a ROK article. It would be a great way to fight back and get the word out. Hiring managers and people interacting with these frauds need to know what they are dealing with.

Unfortunately I don't have the background knowledge to write the article, just throwing the idea out there.

[Peregrine]

(01-31-2016 08:44 PM)kleyau Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:27 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:24 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

I've seen this type of argument brought up before in favor of outsourcing. The thing is you can always choose which consumer goods you want to buy and no one needs 3 tvs, cheap furniture, and a whole house full of cheap plastic crap made everywhere except the U.S.

I am not living in the U.S. at the moment but I would absolutely be willing to pay higher prices for consumer goods if it meant the lower and middle class Americans benefited from non stagnant wages, higher employment, and better standard of living by not outsourcing everything.

That's fair. However, you're in the minority. The rest of us prefer lower prices on consumer goods.

What? Trump is the most popular man on RVF and in the US, and is a staunch nationalist and protectionist.

People don't want cheap, throwaway crap as the driving force of the economy. They want a life for their family and country that is worth living in, not just existing in. So we'll see what the majority wants in November.

I support Trump as well, but this is not something that one man can change.

Edit: Supporting Trump != supporting higher prices for consumer goods in order to raise domestic earnings. If people supported that, they'd buy Made in USA over Nike. Most people choose to buy Nike.

[MrLemon]

(01-31-2016 09:14 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:44 PM)kleyau Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:27 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:24 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

I've seen this type of argument brought up before in favor of outsourcing. The thing is you can always choose which consumer goods you want to buy and no one needs 3 tvs, cheap furniture, and a whole house full of cheap plastic crap made everywhere except the U.S.

I am not living in the U.S. at the moment but I would absolutely be willing to pay higher prices for consumer goods if it meant the lower and middle class Americans benefited from non stagnant wages, higher employment, and better standard of living by not outsourcing everything.

That's fair. However, you're in the minority. The rest of us prefer lower prices on consumer goods.

What? Trump is the most popular man on RVF and in the US, and is a staunch nationalist and protectionist.

People don't want cheap, throwaway crap as the driving force of the economy. They want a life for their family and country that is worth living in, not just existing in. So we'll see what the majority wants in November.

I support Trump as well, but this is not something that one man can change.

Edit: Supporting Trump != supporting higher prices for consumer goods in order to raise domestic earnings. If people supported that, they'd buy Made in USA over Nike. Most people choose to buy Nike.

I don't know about manufacturing, but for IT workers, the solution is drop dead simple:

1. Stop all H-1b visas and anything equivalent. Zero the program out. Don't just stop issuing them, but actually cancel any in circulation.
2. Stop all conversion of H-1b to greencards or citizenship.
3. Ban the use of any non-native labor by ALL federal, state, and local government agencies. (American taxpayers are seeing their tax monies literally poured into the hands of non-US workers. It's national economic suicide and has been abhored by all government agencies until only recently. Ban it absolutely. Constitutional amendment if needed.)
4. Organize a 50-state training program to lift up smart young potential IT workers. Any teenage video gamer is perfectly capable of learning how to do all these IT jobs. I know...I've hired these jobs for years.
5. The president should appoint a watchdog commission (unpaid) to examine the degree of dishonesty and/or corruption on past H-1b resumes. Shine a light on the issue.

These 5 steps could be implemented immediately by simple presidential effort with backing of a republican congress. Get Congressman Jeff Sessions to run it.

Dead simple.

[Onto]

MrLemon, reading that was like seeing a dream come true. I almost started to believe it could happen, but sadly it never will.

[greekgod]

(01-31-2016 08:54 PM)Neo Wrote:  

Greekgod and others this seems like an excellent topic for a ROK article. It would be a great way to fight back and get the word out. Hiring managers and people interacting with these frauds need to know what they are dealing with.

Unfortunately I don't have the background knowledge to write the article, just throwing the idea out there.

Most hiring managers have a very good idea that something is amiss. Do they know the inner workings? No but they have arent dumb, they know whats up.

Unfortunately, it an article doesnt do it justice. Notice how Zuckerberg, Balmer, and a host of other billionaires are lobbying for more of this?

Its one of the biggest issues facing america today that no one is talking about.

Its creeping out of IT and going to other areas as well. BAs, digital, ecomm, and on and on we go.

[greekgod]

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

Edit: The way I see it, if H1Bs/outsourcing produces unacceptably inferior results, then the jobs will eventually be given back to Americans at the higher price point they demand. If H1Bs/outsourcing produces acceptable results, then salaries will go down to meet market reality.

The price is the same, if not higher but its the game thats rigged. Trust me, once these IT guys go from being H1 to GC, they hate it because they realize their wages are flat, forever.

And the jobs won't be given back, they are phased out due to gaps, oversaturation of applicants, and the worlds biggest disconnect, HR.

2 million workers didn't suddenly demand an increase in salary which resulted in this.

It was done to capture more profit which isn't reinvested anywhere. It goes to institutional investors and Csuite bonuses.

And guess what they do with that surplus cash? Buy up physical assets and shoot values to astronomical numbers because only a small percentage are participating in those markets.

Prices go up regardless of IT labor costs.

You know this, aren't you an MBA or wall street guy?

[xxMarco]

(02-01-2016 01:09 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

Its creeping out of IT and going to other areas as well. BAs, digital, ecomm, and on and on we go.

I work in IT and I only see this getting worse the way the economy is going. Companies are trying to cut corners anywhere they can and like its always been, IT is the first department to go. I saw a few posts mention how "if your job can be done by Indians then you deserve to be outsourced". Thats not the point at all. A lot of entry level positions that can be used to acquire experience for someone getting into the field are being outsourced/H1B. Valuable time and experience a college graduate could use to get his feet wet is gone. Unskilled/entry level jobs you could give to someone still studying or younger people are denied the opportunity. Now you have a lot of unemployed people that could have been doing easy jobs. Can't be good for the economy.

Also starting to see most, if not all remote work being outsourced. If you want to be location independent, guess where that job is going, India or Manila. Its starting to look like everyone is going to have to be an independent contractor. You'll have to outbid and compete with everyone else in the world including india where they don't even poo in the loo. Raj over here has a fucking resume with 10 years experience on code that has only been used the last 4 years.

Theres also a video somewhere at an HR meeting. The company is posting job requirements that are for overqualified candidates. People aren't being hired because they don't meet the crazy requirements so they are allowed to hire H1Bs. Really getting out of hand.

[Peregrine]

Disclaimer: The following post might hurt feelings, but I consider it a "red pill" view of the labor market. I'm not arguing that it's the "right" way to do things, it probably is not. I don't think 80% of guys should be sexless while a minority of players clean up either, but it is what it is.

(02-01-2016 01:17 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

Edit: The way I see it, if H1Bs/outsourcing produces unacceptably inferior results, then the jobs will eventually be given back to Americans at the higher price point they demand. If H1Bs/outsourcing produces acceptable results, then salaries will go down to meet market reality.

The price is the same, if not higher but its the game thats rigged. Trust me, once these IT guys go from being H1 to GC, they hate it because they realize their wages are flat, forever.

Every game is rigged. Aren't we all here on RVF because the dating game is "rigged"? If everyone knows that wages are flat, why not choose a different line of work (assuming wage increases are important to you)?

Quote:

And the jobs won't be given back, they are phased out due to gaps, oversaturation of applicants, and the worlds biggest disconnect, HR.

Phased out = not really necessary. No such thing as "oversaturation", just like there's no "fair" price for anything. Only people on the supply side of the equation complain about too much supply. We can agree on HR though, fuck HR.

Quote:

2 million workers didn't suddenly demand an increase in salary which resulted in this.

Doesn't matter. Supply increased, from more Americans entering the field and the addition of foreign (e.g. Indian) labor pools. Supply goes up, price goes down. Simple market economics.

Quote:

It was done to capture more profit which isn't reinvested anywhere. It goes to institutional investors and Csuite bonuses.

Retail investors as well. Where else is the idea of 5 - 7% returns going to come from in a world of zero interest rates?

Quote:

And guess what they do with that surplus cash? Buy up physical assets and shoot values to astronomical numbers because only a small percentage are participating in those markets.

Prices go up regardless of IT labor costs.

Drive down costs, buy up productive assets. (Spoiler alert: employees are not assets.) Business 101.

Quote:

You know this, aren't you an MBA or wall street guy?

No.

[The Beast1]

(01-31-2016 09:14 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:44 PM)kleyau Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:27 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:24 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

I've seen this type of argument brought up before in favor of outsourcing. The thing is you can always choose which consumer goods you want to buy and no one needs 3 tvs, cheap furniture, and a whole house full of cheap plastic crap made everywhere except the U.S.

I am not living in the U.S. at the moment but I would absolutely be willing to pay higher prices for consumer goods if it meant the lower and middle class Americans benefited from non stagnant wages, higher employment, and better standard of living by not outsourcing everything.

That's fair. However, you're in the minority. The rest of us prefer lower prices on consumer goods.

What? Trump is the most popular man on RVF and in the US, and is a staunch nationalist and protectionist.

People don't want cheap, throwaway crap as the driving force of the economy. They want a life for their family and country that is worth living in, not just existing in. So we'll see what the majority wants in November.

I support Trump as well, but this is not something that one man can change.

Edit: Supporting Trump != supporting higher prices for consumer goods in order to raise domestic earnings. If people supported that, they'd buy Made in USA over Nike. Most people choose to buy Nike.

I'll take this point for that argument Peregrine:

I'll take higher forms of cost for goods if it meant the following:

1. My income rose because of upward pressure on the labor market. Less H1Bs/immigrants/outsource, more upward labor market pressure in the form of wages.
2. Certain entities within the US agree to lowered costs (elimination of government gold pensions and healthcare plans, loosening or eliminating onerous labor regulations.
3. Reduce BS "insurance" requirements.
4. At the same time, encourage top bottom compliance of regulations by holding board members and corporate officers accountable for crimes their underlings commit. In China they executed and imprisoned people for the melamine in infant formula scandal. Hold the heads accountable and they'll make sure the left and right hand know what they are doing.

Right now, our industry has to compete with countries that don't care about their employees, the environment, or really any regulation at all. Couple this with antagonistic overhead fees for business relating to taxes, labor, and OSHA these have to be lessened in order to let companies compete.

Part of my "Make America Great Again" plan.

[262]

You could extend Peregrine's "red-pillness" to the nationalist/globalist elite/non-elite political space.

Again, that may hurt feelings, and it may not be the "right" way to do things, but it is what is.

Of course, then the question becomes, what are you going to do about it? Work to change the system so it adapts to you? Or do you adapt to the system? Or both, and to what extent?

IMO, you do both, to the extent that it benefits you more than it costs you.

@Beast1 - that's great if you'll take higher costs, but the real question is, will your competition?

[The_e_man]

Politics aside, I say let the free market operate on it's own devices.

[Peregrine]

(02-01-2016 05:40 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 09:14 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:44 PM)kleyau Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:27 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:24 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

I've seen this type of argument brought up before in favor of outsourcing. The thing is you can always choose which consumer goods you want to buy and no one needs 3 tvs, cheap furniture, and a whole house full of cheap plastic crap made everywhere except the U.S.

I am not living in the U.S. at the moment but I would absolutely be willing to pay higher prices for consumer goods if it meant the lower and middle class Americans benefited from non stagnant wages, higher employment, and better standard of living by not outsourcing everything.

That's fair. However, you're in the minority. The rest of us prefer lower prices on consumer goods.

What? Trump is the most popular man on RVF and in the US, and is a staunch nationalist and protectionist.

People don't want cheap, throwaway crap as the driving force of the economy. They want a life for their family and country that is worth living in, not just existing in. So we'll see what the majority wants in November.

I support Trump as well, but this is not something that one man can change.

Edit: Supporting Trump != supporting higher prices for consumer goods in order to raise domestic earnings. If people supported that, they'd buy Made in USA over Nike. Most people choose to buy Nike.

I'll take this point for that argument Peregrine:

I'll take higher forms of cost for goods if it meant the following:

1. My income rose because of upward pressure on the labor market. Less H1Bs/immigrants/outsource, more upward labor market pressure in the form of wages.
2. Certain entities within the US agree to lowered costs (elimination of government gold pensions and healthcare plans, loosening or eliminating onerous labor regulations.
3. Reduce BS "insurance" requirements.
4. At the same time, encourage top bottom compliance of regulations by holding board members and corporate officers accountable for crimes their underlings commit. In China they executed and imprisoned people for the melamine in infant formula scandal. Hold the heads accountable and they'll make sure the left and right hand know what they are doing.

Right now, our industry has to compete with countries that don't care about their employees, the environment, or really any regulation at all. Couple this with antagonistic overhead fees for business relating to taxes, labor, and OSHA these have to be lessened in order to let companies compete.

Part of my "Make America Great Again" plan.

I probably would too. But the reality is that consumer goods frequently competes on cost and, in a global economy, outsourcing wins.

[The Beast1]

(02-01-2016 05:41 AM)262 Wrote:  

@Beast1 - that's great if you'll take higher costs, but the real question is, will your competition?

(02-01-2016 06:13 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

I probably would too. But the reality is that consumer goods frequently competes on cost and, in a global economy, outsourcing wins.

Should have added the extra point in, tariffs to protect nascent local industries especially consumer goods.

Not to mention, this also leaves out any technological innovations. What are the next steps we have as a people to increase our productivity? We've run into upward limits with light and radio transmissions with internet. We want to explore space, but the distances involved are staggering.

What are the next steps in our technological progress? Quantum communication systems, some faster than light travel, teleporting?!

[Suits]

(01-31-2016 08:13 PM)greekgod Wrote:  

Its boiler plate and fully fraudlent.

I've had these guys on the verge of tears before because they know they can't lie their way out of it.

I'll wipe/scrub a funny, telling email from last week and post it here just to show how deep this bullshit goes.

I will pay in rep points for your three most entertaining stories about these interviews.

[Peregrine]

(02-01-2016 02:53 AM)xxMarco Wrote:  

(02-01-2016 01:09 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

Its creeping out of IT and going to other areas as well. BAs, digital, ecomm, and on and on we go.

I work in IT and I only see this getting worse the way the economy is going. Companies are trying to cut corners anywhere they can and like its always been, IT is the first department to go. I saw a few posts mention how "if your job can be done by Indians then you deserve to be outsourced". Thats not the point at all. A lot of entry level positions that can be used to acquire experience for someone getting into the field are being outsourced/H1B. Valuable time and experience a college graduate could use to get his feet wet is gone. Unskilled/entry level jobs you could give to someone still studying or younger people are denied the opportunity. Now you have a lot of unemployed people that could have been doing easy jobs. Can't be good for the economy.

Also starting to see most, if not all remote work being outsourced. If you want to be location independent, guess where that job is going, India or Manila. Its starting to look like everyone is going to have to be an independent contractor. You'll have to outbid and compete with everyone else in the world including india where they don't even poo in the loo. Raj over here has a fucking resume with 10 years experience on code that has only been used the last 4 years.

Theres also a video somewhere at an HR meeting. The company is posting job requirements that are for overqualified candidates. People aren't being hired because they don't meet the crazy requirements so they are allowed to hire H1Bs. Really getting out of hand.

Here's some more dirty red pill "reality" I'm about to dump: tech is actually two industries. There's high level software dev (1%), and then there's IT (99%). The former is completely safe from outsourcing. The writing is on the wall for the latter. My buddy at Google could not care less about outsourcing. His concerns are whether he should jump to a competitor for more pay/interesting work or go to a startup. However, another friend is leaving the industry because he's part of the 99% that's getting outsourced.

Personally, I know I'd never be good enough to be part of the 1%. Top 10% at best. That's why I'm not a programmer. If you're part of the 99%, accept downward wage pressure/job insecurity or find a different industry/start your own business.

If that sounds mean, reality sucks. Don't shoot the messenger.

(02-01-2016 06:19 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(02-01-2016 05:41 AM)262 Wrote:  

@Beast1 - that's great if you'll take higher costs, but the real question is, will your competition?

(02-01-2016 06:13 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

I probably would too. But the reality is that consumer goods frequently competes on cost and, in a global economy, outsourcing wins.

Should have added the extra point in, tariffs to protect nascent local industries especially consumer goods.

Not to mention, this also leaves out any technological innovations. What are the next steps we have as a people to increase our productivity? We've run into upward limits with light and radio transmissions with internet. We want to explore space, but the distances involved are staggering.

What are the next steps in our technological progress? Quantum communication systems, some faster than light travel, teleporting?!

http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-less...p11p1.html

http://www.stevebaker.info/quick-guides/...y-tariffs/

[Brodiaga]

(02-01-2016 02:53 AM)xxMarco Wrote:  

(02-01-2016 01:09 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

Its creeping out of IT and going to other areas as well. BAs, digital, ecomm, and on and on we go.

I work in IT and I only see this getting worse the way the economy is going. Companies are trying to cut corners anywhere they can and like its always been, IT is the first department to go. I saw a few posts mention how "if your job can be done by Indians then you deserve to be outsourced". Thats not the point at all. A lot of entry level positions that can be used to acquire experience for someone getting into the field are being outsourced/H1B. Valuable time and experience a college graduate could use to get his feet wet is gone. Unskilled/entry level jobs you could give to someone still studying or younger people are denied the opportunity. Now you have a lot of unemployed people that could have been doing easy jobs. Can't be good for the economy.

Also starting to see most, if not all remote work being outsourced. If you want to be location independent, guess where that job is going, India or Manila. Its starting to look like everyone is going to have to be an independent contractor. You'll have to outbid and compete with everyone else in the world including india where they don't even poo in the loo. Raj over here has a fucking resume with 10 years experience on code that has only been used the last 4 years.

Theres also a video somewhere at an HR meeting. The company is posting job requirements that are for overqualified candidates. People aren't being hired because they don't meet the crazy requirements so they are allowed to hire H1Bs. Really getting out of hand.

That's exactly right. Corporations started practicing location independence long before Tim Ferriss wrote "The 4 Hour Work Week" and the idea became popular among regular people.

However, corporations practice it on their terms. Instead of you being able to work from anywhere, they will set up shitty, open plan offices in cheap locations and make you compete against these people. Normally, in big companies, while the team is globally distributed, you are still required to show up at your local office so that the boss can physically see you every day. It is location independence, but it's for them, not for you.

What makes things worse is that many jobs that are not yet outsourced require a lot of office politics, regular face to face meetings, networking, etc, because this is harder to outsource than, for example, run-of-the-mill coding.

If it wasn't for outsourcing, remote work would be common practice because the technology that enables it is there and companies would have to offer this option to be able to find good people at reasonable cost. Instead of that, they just move these jobs to India at a fraction of the cost.

[greekgod]

(02-01-2016 05:06 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Disclaimer: The following post might hurt feelings, but I consider it a "red pill" view of the labor market. I'm not arguing that it's the "right" way to do things, it probably is not. I don't think 80% of guys should be sexless while a minority of players clean up either, but it is what it is.

(02-01-2016 01:17 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

(01-31-2016 08:18 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Those who support a protectionist view towards tech jobs, would you also support the same view towards manufacturing? Keep in mind that products would increase in price.

Edit: The way I see it, if H1Bs/outsourcing produces unacceptably inferior results, then the jobs will eventually be given back to Americans at the higher price point they demand. If H1Bs/outsourcing produces acceptable results, then salaries will go down to meet market reality.

The price is the same, if not higher but its the game thats rigged. Trust me, once these IT guys go from being H1 to GC, they hate it because they realize their wages are flat, forever.

Every game is rigged. Aren't we all here on RVF because the dating game is "rigged"? If everyone knows that wages are flat, why not choose a different line of work (assuming wage increases are important to you)?

On a personal level, I'm not really invested in this. I make money either way. I started diversifying over a year ago because this aint the right long game for me.

On a societal level, the long term consequences are terrible and that is the concern. When high trust societies lose their social contracts for an inferior cultural substitute, bad things happen.

When a gov't is complicit in running its labor market like a wall street earnings report to benefit shareholders in the short term as opposed to creating long term value; wheres the long term incentive?

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And the jobs won't be given back, they are phased out due to gaps, oversaturation of applicants, and the worlds biggest disconnect, HR.

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Phased out = not really necessary. No such thing as "oversaturation", just like there's no "fair" price for anything. Only people on the supply side of the equation complain about too much supply. We can agree on HR though, fuck HR.

Agreed, People need to be active in their skill development and stay on the ball to be competitive. This is on them. However, is a bit challenging when new technologies come out every 6 months and the moment it hits the market you have 40,000 25 year old Indians claiming to have 8+ years of experience in cucumber.

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2 million workers didn't suddenly demand an increase in salary which resulted in this.

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Doesn't matter. Supply increased, from more Americans entering the field and the addition of foreign (e.g. Indian) labor pools. Supply goes up, price goes down. Simple market economics.

The degree to which it stagnates does matter. Also, the universal control these corporations have over their visa workers and prices is a huge factor as it gives near unlimited power. The visa workers will do anything to stay here. How can a guy create a family around a job market where his younger competitors are willing to lie, put in ungodly hours of facetime, and work for bottom of the barrel wages to just keep their place in the country?

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It was done to capture more profit which isn't reinvested anywhere. It goes to institutional investors and Csuite bonuses.

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Retail investors as well. Where else is the idea of 5 - 7% returns going to come from in a world of zero interest rates?

Loosely related; if managements best trick to increase profits is to always cut costs as opposed to finding growth markets; its cause for concern, no?

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And guess what they do with that surplus cash? Buy up physical assets and shoot values to astronomical numbers because only a small percentage are participating in those markets.

Prices go up regardless of IT labor costs.

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Drive down costs, buy up productive assets. (Spoiler alert: employees are not assets.) Business 101.

Playing devils advocate here:

No employee is an asset? A salesperson isnt an asset?

A CRM architect that creates a better system and lets you and I access client information en route to a meeting isn't a value add?

I'm going to resort to 80/20 here and believe the truth is somewhere in between our viewpoints.

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You know this, aren't you an MBA or wall street guy?

No.
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We could go tit for tat all day on text book business management all day. In theory, I agree with you on most points.

All of your rebuttals are ignoring one key piece of information. These arent substitute goods. These are inferior, fraudulent goods at a higher hourly cost which simultaneously encourages a shitty race to the bottom.

In some ways it reminds me of the changing of airliner materials. Yes, the composites are cheaper to purchase on the individual parts and may provide short term positives on the balance sheet. Long term though, its a product that doesnt have as much integrity and the cost cutting will show its true colors over the course of time.

Personal opinion, long term confidence and investment is more important than eeking out a 4% cost of labor reduction.