[Edmund Ironside]

(02-01-2016 01:09 AM)greekgod Wrote:  

out of IT and going to other areas as well. BAs, digital, ecomm, and on and on we go.

This stuff is so big it impacts almost all of the white collar job market in the US, and probably bleeds over into the top end of the blue collar job market as well. People displaced in one area become competition in other areas. It's economics. Our leadership from the past 30 years only seems to understand economics when they are using it against us. Hopefully the incoming administration will be radically different and will be able to overcome the certain opposition and sabotage.

[John Michael Kane]

I've seen it happen with plenty of my friends who are in I.T. I tell you the same thing I've told them, which is start your own business with like-minded Americans. The current tech assholes of Silicon Valley aren't stopping you from creating a startup with your own culture and support of American-born employees. With Trump in office, hopefully he'll stem the tide of H1B visa abuse, but even still, you need to start planning your next move and not wait for Trump to take action on this (if he does at all).

[greekgod]

Ask yourself this, why does a non profit university system need to save money on labor costs? Who gains? What additional benefit do these workers add?

Surely this wont stop the tuition hike next year nor will it even be accounted for

http://cis.org/north/two-senior-democrat...us-workers

[Edmund Ironside]

Looks like a loosening of the rules as a last shot of the current administration:

https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases...a-programs

[Edmund Ironside]

(11-21-2016 12:14 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

start your own business with like-minded Americans. The current tech assholes of Silicon Valley aren't stopping you from creating a startup with your own culture and support of American-born employees.

If you have an idea for an app or website you want to build, and think you can make money at it, sure. A lot of businesses though are dominated already by huge companies, and good luck with a startup to compete with JP Morgan, Allstate, GE, 3M, or whatever. A lot of businesses require a good deal of startup capital to even thinking about. You could be someone capable of improving the efficiency of IT at Exxon Mobile by 50%, but have no realistic chance of building a competitor from scratch.

[Secrenis]

Someone already said it but y'all are conflating IT and software engineering. If you have the skills, Google and Facebook are always hiring. There are some knowledge barriers for entry, but unlike finance and consulting, tech is fairly straightforward to get into

[John Michael Kane]

(11-21-2016 02:53 PM)Edmund Ironside Wrote:  

(11-21-2016 12:14 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

start your own business with like-minded Americans. The current tech assholes of Silicon Valley aren't stopping you from creating a startup with your own culture and support of American-born employees.

If you have an idea for an app or website you want to build, and think you can make money at it, sure. A lot of businesses though are dominated already by huge companies, and good luck with a startup to compete with JP Morgan, Allstate, GE, 3M, or whatever. A lot of businesses require a good deal of startup capital to even thinking about. You could be someone capable of improving the efficiency of IT at Exxon Mobile by 50%, but have no realistic chance of building a competitor from scratch.

There are plenty of software niches that have yet to be filled. Think of industry-specific solutions for small and medium sized businesses. Find an underserved market and build accordingly. A friend of mine did that, and he's seeing a huge return.

[Jackreacher]

(03-13-2016 12:45 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

Seriously, what's your suggestion? I'm willing to compromise if you can provide a real plan for preventing the coming disaster.

Sorry for the late reply but it's still relevant to the current situation and any future situation involving a mostly free society undergoing a middle class economic crisis. With all sincerity it's not my job to do the thinking for Middle America. America is a land of opportunity. That's a fact. I was born here. The idea of a group of Americans going into the house of someone who used that opportunity to become wealthy by his thoughts and actions and threatening violence if he doesn't redistribute his wealth to cater to them sickens me. It reeks of weakness. It is ignorance and immaturity to a level so low that it can only be described as petulant envy. And I call it ignorance and immaturity because it ignores the fact that ones life is in ones hands, if you live in the United States that's the truth. One has the power to live a life of excellence or entitlement.

To answer your question. If I even get a hint of civil war by the middle class complaining about inequalities and a desire to take by force that which is not theirs I'll do what my parents have done in the past. Move to a country that's not having a hissy fit. This all just sounds like another flavor of occupy wall street, only this time with people frothing at the mouth over jobs they feel they should have. You can't make plans for people who don't think for themselves. You can only insulate yourself from their inanity.

[Lunostrelki]

I don't see what is so difficult about this issue. If you hold everyone to the same American standards and it will naturally benefit natives more, as is good and correct. Then charge a bit more as a tariff for genuine foreign talent (if they want to be in the U.S. so badly, they'll be willing to pay more for the opportunity), and the chaff will be separated from the grain in short order. It'd pretty much be the Japanese system writ large.

[Edmund Ironside]

(11-25-2016 03:44 PM)Jackreacher Wrote:  

(03-13-2016 12:45 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

Seriously, what's your suggestion? I'm willing to compromise if you can provide a real plan for preventing the coming disaster.

With all sincerity it's not my job to do the thinking for Middle America. America is a land of opportunity. That's a fact. I was born here. The idea of a group of Americans going into the house of someone who used that opportunity to become wealthy by his thoughts and actions and threatening violence if he doesn't redistribute his wealth to cater to them sickens me. It reeks of weakness. It is ignorance and immaturity to a level so low that it can only be described as petulant envy. And I call it ignorance and immaturity because it ignores the fact that ones life is in ones hands, if you live in the United States that's the truth. One has the power to live a life of excellence or entitlement.

I completely agree with you, when we are talking about people who got wealthy by doing something productive. I would have agreed with you a lot more overall when I was a teenager. However, I now realize that if you look at wealthy people in the US and you think that most of them got that way by doing anything productive you are pretty naive.

[greekgod]

A good example of the fuckery ongoing.

http://www.computerworld.com/article/311...-case.html

[262]

^ Article:

Quote:

Fake resumes, jobs, lead to real guilty plea in H-1B fraud case
By Patrick Thibodeau
Senior Editor, Computerworld | Aug 26, 2016 11:18 AM PT

A Virginia couple has pleaded guilty to H-1B fraud charges in a scheme that made them millions, the U.S. Department of Justice announced Thursday.

The married couple -- Raju Kosuri, 44, and Smriti Jharia, 45 -- created a visa-for-sale system involving some 900 H-1B visa petitions over a multi-year period, according to the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia.

Court records detail an elaborate operation that required a series of fictions to pull off.

Through a series of shell companies that purported to provide IT staffing and services to corporate clients, the defendants claimed to seek H-1B visa petitions on behalf of workers. These workers had to pay the visa fees, legal and administrative costs -- as much as $4,000 -- in violation of the visa program's rules.

When the H-1B visa workers were not on a job they were "benched" -- not paid, a practice not allowed under the program's requirements. Foreign workers are required to be paid continuously regardless of employment by an end client.

"These rules are designed to protect foreign workers from predation by American employers, to guarantee them a salary during the period of their visa eligibility, and to provide working conditions for foreign workers which will not adversely affect the working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers," said the government, in court records.

When the visa-holding workers complained "about the difficulty of trying to live in the U.S. without income" they were told they were "nothing more than hourly consultants."

The H-1B visa workers were told to "falsify their resumes" to deceive immigration authorities about their employment history.

To explain how the phony process worked, the government cited a visa petition submitted on behalf of a person identified only as "A.G.," which claimed he would be working as a computer systems analyst for a particular company. But the supporting letter was actually written by one of the defendants in the scheme.

The guilty plea includes admitting to charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States and visa fraud, among others. As part of the case, Kosuri agreed to forfeit proceeds from the venture -- in the amount of $20.9 million.

The couple will face sentencing at a later date, a DOJ spokesperson said. The attorney representing the defendants declined to comment.

Kosuri and Jharia were indicted by a grand jury, along with four others, in April. At that time, the U.S. said they faced up to a maximum of 30 years in prison.

To express your thoughts on Computerworld content, visit Computerworld's Facebook page, LinkedIn page and Twitter stream.

[Vicious]

The problem with enforcing hiring protocols is that employees get complacent and drag down the efficiency "you don't like my work what are you going to do I'm American you can't fire me".

Supply and demand rules supreme, start tampering with the equation and you're inching towards socialist practices.

[Edmund Ironside]

(11-28-2016 04:57 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

The problem with enforcing hiring protocols is that employees get complacent and drag down the efficiency "you don't like my work what are you going to do I'm American you can't fire me".

Supply and demand rules supreme, start tampering with the equation and you're inching towards socialist practices.

I don't think the efficiency of the whole current system is what you think it is, in hiring or in everyday work. There are pockets of efficiency, but the whole free market thing just doesn't work the way in practice that theory postulates. Management tends to be poor, with no real concept of what is required to get work done. Hiring practices are horrible, even H1Bs aside. In a more perfect world I agree with your sentiment, but I think the concern you mention here, though valid, is not nearly a deciding factor given the circumstances. To the extent that free market principles work domestically, you have to reconsider when you hit the border.

[Vicious]

(12-12-2016 09:30 AM)Edmund Ironside Wrote:  

I don't think the efficiency of the whole current system is what you think it is, in hiring or in everyday work. There are pockets of efficiency, but the whole free market thing just doesn't work the way in practice that theory postulates. Management tends to be poor, with no real concept of what is required to get work done. Hiring practices are horrible, even H1Bs aside.

What Management? Of all companies using H1Bs? Waaaay too general a statement to make without something to support it.

[greekgod]

(12-14-2016 07:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(12-12-2016 09:30 AM)Edmund Ironside Wrote:  

I don't think the efficiency of the whole current system is what you think it is, in hiring or in everyday work. There are pockets of efficiency, but the whole free market thing just doesn't work the way in practice that theory postulates. Management tends to be poor, with no real concept of what is required to get work done. Hiring practices are horrible, even H1Bs aside.

What Management? Of all companies using H1Bs? Waaaay too general a statement to make without something to support it.

No, the H1-B program it self. Zero vetting of skills or companies poaching millions from the US economy.

The companies are supposed to get away with whatever they can. The gov't is supposed to protect its citizens before it protects shareholder value. Maslow's hierarchy. Simple stuff.


Given your supply and demand guiding principle, would you say 95 million people unemployed constitutes shutting down foreign labor until we can understand what is happening?

(Hint; there isn't a skills gap, theres a willingness to train kids and pay fair market value for experienced talent)

[Edmund Ironside]

(12-14-2016 07:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(12-12-2016 09:30 AM)Edmund Ironside Wrote:  

I don't think the efficiency of the whole current system is what you think it is, in hiring or in everyday work. There are pockets of efficiency, but the whole free market thing just doesn't work the way in practice that theory postulates. Management tends to be poor, with no real concept of what is required to get work done. Hiring practices are horrible, even H1Bs aside.

What Management? Of all companies using H1Bs? Waaaay too general a statement to make without something to support it.

I did say "tends", so obviously I wasn't saying "all". However, after 17+ years of IT experience across a range of organizations and industries, my general impressions of average management are not good. In particular, at large companies there is a tendency for red tape and politics to trump actual productivity and ability. That leads to the wrong people in management, and the wrong kind of culture. One impact of that is that management doesn't necessarily have any good handle at all on what is really required to get work done. It's not easy - big technical projects and systems have tons and tons of variables, tons of skills needed to overcome tons of challenges. Management ends up being at an abstract level where the abstraction ... man-hours, job titles ... aren't a good representation of the reality. Outsourcing companies take advantage of that in a big way, and the bigger part of any organization they make up, the less well the internal management understands what is really going on. It isn't as simple as where to get the cheapest man hours to fill a certain job title, but people like to pretend things are simple, declare victory, and go home.

Note on the red tape part ... processes and procedures and standards all have their place and are important to creating efficiency when you have any organization that is beyond start up size. I understand that, but it usually gets completely out of control.

[RaulValdez739]

I agree that the H-1B visa program needs to end. Jobs should go to US citizens and permanent residents in that order. If one is not qualified then train them.

[hunter]

So much bitterness in this thread

[Tytalus]

So what has Trump done about the H1B visa program so far?

[Edmund Ironside]

Quote:

Federal visa certifications were granted for 12,771 positions sought by Charlotte-area businesses in 2015, according to the latest annual tally by the Department of Labor. That’s more than double the figure from five years earlier – and bigger than the entire workforce of some of Charlotte’s largest employers.

One of the visas cited in the draft executive order, the H-1B, is especially widespread in Charlotte, which ranked 14th nationwide in 2015 for number of those visa jobs given federal certification.

In Charlotte, some of the biggest users of the program include technology outsourcing companies such as Cognizant Technology Solutions and consulting firms like Deloitte. But they also include familiar names from a range of industries, including Bank of America and Wells Fargo, appliance-maker Electrolux, hotel chain Extended Stay America and home-improvement retailer Lowe’s.

Experts say new restrictions on visa programs could cost Charlotte jobs, as some firms that employ foreign workers would likely ship those tasks overseas to keep costs low. That could ripple through the economy in Charlotte, where visa workers live and spend money.

Quote:

Among Charlotte’s biggest visa users: outsourcing companies known for providing information technology services to other firms. Those companies, like India-based Infosys, often hire Indian workers who live in the Charlotte region and work in uptown’s office towers.

Because of their outsized reliance on visas, such firms potentially stand to lose the most from limitations on the program.

Nimish Bhatt, president of the Carolinas Asian-American Chamber of Commerce, estimates Charlotte employs at least 15,000 workers on H-1B visas. Those employees help the region’s economy, spending money at local businesses, occupying apartment complexes, using Charlotte’s airport – even attending NASCAR races, he said.

“All your uptown restaurants, you can see are full in the lunch hours, and that is a big business,” Bhatt said. “If you go to the EpiCentre Thursday, Friday, Saturday, you will see all foreign (H-1B) workers there during the evening hours.”

Bhatt said tech companies in Charlotte that have been planning to make investments are holding off for now amid the uncertainty.

George Miller, a Charlotte immigration attorney whose firm DozierMiller helps businesses file visa paperwork, pointed to the companies on the Charlotte Chamber’s website. “The vast majority of the list is H-1B reliant,” he said. “It is a significant part of the workforce.”

Miller said clients have been calling with questions about how Trump’s potential changes to visas might affect them: “They’re very concerned.”

He said the Trump administration’s actions involving visas could “definitely” push some Charlotte employers to move those jobs overseas.

“The banking industry, for one, may be forced to outsource that work outside the United States,” he said. “If Americans aren’t available to do it, aren’t trained to do it, they have no choice.”

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/bu...51484.html

There are Americans, they just don't want to pay them. It doesn't have to be 20% either ... most of the time they will hire the cheapest option that supposedly "meets the requirements". You can always write requirements for a job to be so specific that almost no one would (honestly) qualify. I've spent a lot of time looking for tech jobs, I see it daily. I've also seen jobs where I am very well qualified and didn't even get an interview and the job was still listed months later, multiple times.

It's illegal for US companies to favor US citizens, did you know that? Does it make sense? Not only do US citizen tech workers have to compete with all of these imported workers, but people making hiring decisions are under pressure both culturally and legally not to be seen as discriminating in favor of US citizens.

There aren't 15,000 or so H1Bs in Charlotte because they are all brilliant innovators who are keeping US companies at the forefront of technology by inventing new things. However, you do have to consider the cooks and waitstaff who wouldn't have jobs serving them if they all left. (Yes I'm being sarcastic, and no, I don't have anything against hardworking food service folks.)

H1B needs a lot bigger restriction than what is being floated, and it needs to be accompanied by incentives (carrot and stick) not to offshore/outsource in place of using US labor.

[Edmund Ironside]

(02-11-2017 02:13 PM)Tytalus Wrote:  

So what has Trump done about the H1B visa program so far?

Nothing, yet. It's a huge issue related to white collar labor rates, especially in tech, in the US, therefore Trump will be under tremendous pressure from the big corporations not to do anything substantive. Jeff Sessions, and probably Steve Bannon, are members of the administration who are probably on the side of doing something. Old guard republicans who are more "chamber of commerce" types rather than having nationalistic loyalty to US citizens will be against it and will be the ones making the conversation all about tax cuts and reducing regulation.

I personally think that H1B and L1 play a bigger part in suppressing white collar wages than even people opposed to them realize, due to long term suppression of the point where supply and demand meet. The extent to which heads of corps realize that will influence the ferocity of their opposition.

[Edmund Ironside]

Chuck Grassley on H1B:

Quote:

So the flaws in the H-1B program are hurting American workers, American innovation, and even the H-1B workers themselves, who are in many cases "benched" without work or pay for long periods. Earlier this year, I introduced bipartisan legislation with Senator Dick Durbin (D-Ill) to tackle these problems and return the program to its original intent: filling gaps in America's skilled labor market.

First, to prevent future stories like Perrero's, our bill explicitly prohibits companies from replacing qualified American workers with H-1B workers. It also requires companies to post job openings and make good faith efforts to hire qualified American workers before seeking H-1B visas. Companies would also be prohibited from laying off American workers 180 days prior to and following the hiring of an H-1B worker. These provisions ensure that qualified American workers are considered for jobs first.

To ensure that the limited number of annual H-1B visas go to the best and brightest workers, our bill prioritizes petitions, starting with foreign nationals who received advanced science and engineering degrees right here in the United States. Currently, visas are usually allocated by lottery, which favors firms that request large numbers of visas for lower-skilled workers. The new system would give a leg up to advanced degree holders, those being paid a high wage, and those with valuable skills needed by American innovators.

To reduce abuses by outsourcing companies that use up so many of the limited number of H-1B visas each year, our bill allows the placement of H-1B workers at client worksites, but only after the Department of Labor has determined that American workers won't be harmed by the placement. To reduce use of the program to offshore jobs, the bill allows extensions of H-1B status, but only if the worker has been sponsored for a Green Card. We also prevent companies with more than 50 employees from hiring additional H-1B workers if half of their workforce is already made up of H-1B workers.

Finally, to prevent future abuses, we enhance the Department of Labor's authority to investigate and audit employer compliance and penalize bad actors. The Department would also collect and report statistical information such as wage data, worker education levels, place of employment and worker gender to ensure fairness and compliance.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chuck-gras...38490.html

It all sounds good, but I've never heard anything like this that sounds like it will really work unless it reduces the actual numbers or raises the minimum salaries a lot. There is nothing about "consider American candidates first" that avoids (a) job requirements that were specifically written to exclude almost everyone, or (b) salaries that are really low (aka the old "no Americans want the job [at this salary level] routine). Without addressing those issues it seems like the H1b would continue to serve its real purpose, which is to massively lower salary levels for American IT work by introducing hundreds of thousands of competing IT workers.

[Edmund Ironside]

Big discussion at slashdot from the last couple of days: https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/02/11/0...s#comments

[LockeAndLoad]

Develop skills/get so good at your profession that you are invaluable and irreplaceable/use your unique and proficient skills to create your own income generating business.