[StrikeBack]

The discussion on genetic freaks is a waste of time. We are not aiming to be world champions here. By maximizing your own genetic potential, you will beat 99.99999999% of men out there.

(11-12-2015 01:52 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I don't think this thread is about seeing improvements in one's physique from working out, I don't think anyone is questioning that, this thread is about weightliftings affect on women's sexual attraction.

Let's get back to that then.

[N°6]

(11-12-2015 08:15 AM)zatara Wrote:  

OGNorCal707 Wrote:

All I'm saying is that if you're not a genetic outlier and you don't want to use roids, be prepared to devote 1-2 hours, 4-6 days a week, for the next 5 years with dialed in diet, supplements, sleep, lifestyle, etc. to reach that mythical level of fitness that will get you easy pussy.

You make this sound impossibly hard by using negative language, but its actually not that much of a commitment. If I said to you you need to spend a few years doing:

- 1 hour of exercise a day 4 days a week
- Eating well and getting enough sleep
- Limiting alcohol to weekends

It sounds easy right? Because it is. Yet this would be enough to put any man in his 20s or older in the top 10% of his peer group physically. Blaming things on genetic outliers etc is just making excuses.

I agree, the whole genes thing only kicks in at the upper levels of any sport or activity. Aiming for elite body building levels to attract women will probably take us past the point of diminishing returns anyway.

Blaming bad genes as a reason not to lift to gain an over average body and fitness level is the same as a woman not wanting to learn to cook just because most successful chefs are men or a women not liking horse riding because most jockeys are men.

I am preaching to myself in this thread.

[N°6]

(11-10-2015 01:49 AM)roid Wrote:  

gonna leave these here for OP

https://instagram.com/jonskywalker/?hl=en

Has this guy published a fitness and diet plan?

Whatever it is, it clearly works.

[Bushido]

Someone made this point in another thread, but being in the top 5% of the male population isn't too hard to achieve with such a low overall standard of physique. Top 5% in nightclubs is a different thing. This is where good-looking guys in the upper percentile of SMV tend to congregate.

But in daygame? Or a social event? A house party? If you are lean with considerable muscle mass then you already stand out by a a mile. It's all about the context.

P.S This thread has motivated me to double down on my lifting. I have no problems leaning out but tend to lose muscle mass quite rapidly when traveling. Gotta get more disciplined about diet.

[britchard]

(11-13-2015 02:54 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

Someone made this point in another thread, but being in the top 5% of the male population isn't too hard to achieve with such a low overall standard of physique. Top 5% in nightclubs is a different thing. This is where good-looking guys in the upper percentile of SMV tend to congregate.

But in daygame? Or a social event? A house party? If you are lean with considerable muscle mass then you already stand out by a a mile. It's all about the context.

P.S This thread has motivated me to double down on my lifting. I have no problems leaning out but tend to lose muscle mass quite rapidly when traveling. Gotta get more disciplined about diet.

Exactly. Chuck a guy struggling to make it pro in any sport in some weekend amateur league, and he'll kill it. Remember where you are relative to the average, not your hardest environments.

A guy who wanted to become a pro footballer might train all his life and just make it. He'll have beaten guys who were more talented naturally, but didn't train hard. However he will never make it to the very top of the game, as then he'll be up against guys who have worked and hard and have natural talent.

Now think about that in a sense of weightlifting and attracting women.

[RexImperator]

(11-13-2015 01:14 AM)N°6 Wrote:  

Has this guy published a fitness and diet plan?

Whatever it is, it clearly works.

I think it's called, "be young and in your peak testosterone years, starting from a base of low body fat, then lift heavy things, eat/sleep/recover, and repeat."

[samsamsam]

(11-13-2015 12:42 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

The discussion on genetic freaks is a waste of time. We are not aiming to be world champions here. By maximizing your own genetic potential, you will beat 99.99999999% of men out there.

(11-12-2015 01:52 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I don't think this thread is about seeing improvements in one's physique from working out, I don't think anyone is questioning that, this thread is about weightliftings affect on women's sexual attraction.

Let's get back to that then.

SB is right.

I haven't followed this entire thread - just bits and pieces.

Work out if you want to, don't work out if you don't want to. That's it.

We all have goals and as we take that first step, we think it will be just easy and awesome. Well some do.

But weightlifting is an application of effort over time. Throw in knowledge of course all that. But do what you can do and add to your knowledge over time. I know much more about lifting and dieting now than 10 years ago, but that didn't keep me from lifting.

For those arguing that lifting isn't good or something like that (just speculating there are some of those guys in here), just don't do it. Easy, why stress?

Edit: I might have swung and missed on this thread, but I'll leave what I have written. Maybe it is an overused expression on this forum to "go lift." But it can be done immediately and if you have never lifted it you can see quick gains. Any success adds to a person's confidence. Confidence plus physical beauty (good muscular bodies are attractive to women) = more lays.

[RexImperator]

I do think the thread was derailed slightly because some thought I was saying "don't bother working out" or something like that. That couldn't be further from what I was saying.

Also, maybe muscles have some effect, but it takes a long time to get to that place where they do. It would be nice if we could quantify where that is (achieve such and such LBM per inch height, at such and such bodyfat levels, etc., or a certain total in the big three at some bodyweight, and then you are then in the "girls come up to me and squeeze my muscles" zone.)

[Moma]

Rex, pardon me if I'm redundant but how tall are you and how much do you currently weigh? What is your current body fat percentage? I will use this to determine what LBM you need (roughly as this is not an absolute science) in order to have the lizards 'coming up and pinching your muscles'.

Remember Rudebwoy is around 5'11 and he achieved the 'strange lizards coming up and pinching look' at 210 pounds. He's also quite lean and I would put him at no higher than 12 percent body fat. He was probably lower when he was 210 (maybe 11 or 10 percent). Being at that level AND showcasing your body accordingly will set off those signals in a lizard.

This video will also let you know the type of lizards you will attract with a decent body.

[Rush87]

(11-14-2015 02:32 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

I do think the thread was derailed slightly because some thought I was saying "don't bother working out" or something like that. That couldn't be further from what I was saying.

Also, maybe muscles have some effect, but it takes a long time to get to that place where they do. It would be nice if we could quantify where that is (achieve such and such LBM per inch height, at such and such bodyfat levels, etc., or a certain total in the big three at some bodyweight, and then you are then in the "girls come up to me and squeeze my muscles" zone.)

From personal experience I started getting that 'girls squeezing biceps' at a lean 175lb. In reality, if your body fat is lean, 170+ is actually fairly big.

As a for instance:

This is Olympic Sprinter Asafa Powell. He is 6'3 and 180lb. Not bad.

[rudebwoy]

Asafa looks a lot bigger than that today, I suspect that is an old photo.

170 is not big, sorry it just isn't.

I mean we could debate all day, but getting a good body should be something you want to do. If you are satisfied with your body and the results it gets you then so be it.

As Moma stated before, when I hit 210 then it was the next level. To be truthful my body fat might have been a bit higher as well. Now I have trimmed myself down and I am slowing adding more weight, with a heavy focus on my abs.

If you haven't driven a Ferrari, you cannot tell me a souped up Honda feels the same.

[Moma]

(11-14-2015 05:22 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

If you haven't driven a Ferrari, you cannot tell me a souped up Honda feels the same.

To loan to the comment, you also have to bear in mind that you will not be walking around with speedos on in the club. Keep in mind that you want to look good in clothes that you will be wearing. This means you will need more muscle and enough definition that it gleams through well tailored outfit (collared shirt, long/short sleeves, fitted trousers). With that in mind, Rudebwoy is right, you are going to need more than 170lbs if you are over six feet. If you are under, you will need less. One of my friends from Toronto is about 5'10 and 175lbs. Cut up. He knows that if he's around 185 or 190 he will be nice. This is why I am trying to determine the OP's stats. Once you have hit the promised land, then drawing her to the room naked will be easier. Once she is in the room naked, you can surprise her with a potbelly the size of Obelix's or a teeny winkie and she will at least allow you to smash once. If you smash once, you've won.

[Rush87]

(11-14-2015 05:22 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Asafa looks a lot bigger than that today, I suspect that is an old photo.

170 is not big, sorry it just isn't.

I mean we could debate all day, but getting a good body should be something you want to do. If you are satisfied with your body and the results it gets you then so be it.

As Moma stated before, when I hit 210 then it was the next level. To be truthful my body fat might have been a bit higher as well. Now I have trimmed myself down and I am slowing adding more weight, with a heavy focus on my abs.

If you haven't driven a Ferrari, you cannot tell me a souped up Honda feels the same.

Depending on where you're from 170 isn't small. I'm 216 currently [About 209 lean]. Admittedly I'm probably around 16% but consider the average man is 175lb at 20%…

…Do the numbers and the average person at 10% is 152.5lb. So a 170lb male has almost 20lb lean muscle mass on the average male. Under any definition of the word that is big [When comparing to the average].

I suspect some men grossly underestimate their body fat percentage and as result their lean muscle mass.

Here is Tyson Gay at 165lb:



Shawn Crawford at 165lb



Add 10% body fat to these guys - They would be walking around at close to 190lb.

Quote:

To loan to the comment, you also have to bear in mind that you will not be walking around with speedos on in the club.

To borrow from this as well style is very important. At around 217 right now I can still look skinny with the wrong clothing choices. In a club environment if I choose larger sizing I can easily appear smaller than someone 20lb lighter.

In the same vein with the right clothing 185lb can look big:

Case in point George St Pierre 183lb [Walk around weight]



In anycase: My overriding point is that for those guys hovering in the skinny ranges - You will be in the bigger column when it comes to guys if you can climb about 170lb lean. That's just a statistical fact and something for beginners to aim towards.

[RexImperator]

Quote:

Rex, pardon me if I'm redundant but how tall are you and how much do you currently weigh? What is your current body fat percentage? I will use this to determine what LBM you need (roughly as this is not an absolute science) in order to have the lizards 'coming up and pinching your muscles'.

I am 6' 1" and weigh about 220. I *think* I am probably around 20% or so. I started seeing some definition last month but then I started gaining some weight back.

[Kieran]

Exactly - Crawford at 165 and 5'11 is small by RVF standards, but is pretty damn big to anybody that hasn't been brainwashed by looking at muscle magazines and youtube videos. If you can't get girls looking like that, then you might as well give up. And like you I also suspect that some (not all) underestimate how much fat they are carrying, and how much muscle they would lose if they were to cut it (assuming they're natural).

[rudebwoy]

Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell have both been caught using steroids, not saying it is a bad thing. So a lot of their look could be attributed to that.

Funny how St Pierre bloomed to 200lb when he is not training, I can tell you he probably looks a lot better in clothes than that pic above.

http://www.mmamania.com/2014/10/30/71143...weight-mma

[H1N1]

(11-14-2015 06:52 PM)Kieran Wrote:  

Exactly - Crawford at 165 and 5'11 is small by RVF standards, but is pretty damn big to anybody that hasn't been brainwashed by looking at muscle magazines and youtube videos. If you can't get girls looking like that, then you might as well give up. And like you I also suspect that some (not all) underestimate how much fat they are carrying, and how much muscle they would lose if they were to cut it (assuming they're natural).

As the conversation has shifted a bit, I wanted to come back on this.

Kieran's point about bf is absolutely spot on. I have been pretty guilty of this. I started cutting about a month ago, from 198lbs with visible abs, when flexed in decent lighting. I assumed I was most likely around 15%, given that I had some abs, had a flat stomach when relaxed, ate clean, and trained hard both strength and conditioning. I weighed myself this morning and I was down to 191, which is a 3.5% bf drop. If I'd correctly estimated my bf then that should have put me around 11.5%. There is no way I am at 11.5%, more likely I'm now down around 13%, I can say for certain that I will need to drop at least another 7lbs to get into the really looking lean bracket, taking me down to about 185lbs at 6'1. That'll be about 15lbs lost as a guy who was starting from a pretty solid position, visibly leaner still than most. As Kieran says, almost all of us are kidding ourselves on our bodyfat levels, and I've been pretty humbled by this dieting experience already. I don't expect to hit my targets until about Xmas time. Having initially thought I was about 4 weeks from being in great condition, the reality looks closer to 10 weeks.

An interesting point that relates to what constitutes big - I read in one of the old time strongman articles about the pre-steroid era strongmen that they considered a 15" arm on a lean (most of those guys were 10% max) man to be a powerful guy. Not a monster, or at the limit of genetic potential or anything, but a big, strong, powerful bloke none-the-less.

[Unkown_Killa]

What mass would you need to be if you're shorter, like just under 5'7"?

[OGNorCal707]

Part of how big you'll look when you're lean may have to do with your natural bone structure, some people have a thick natural bone structure, while others will be much thinner and some guys are just down right "boney".

I'd say being 5 ft. 11 in. and using that as a standard height most guys aren't going to look classically "big" until they get around 185 lbs +, but really 195 + before they start to look "jacked". I'm partially pulling these "stats" out of my ass, but a lot from what I see, observed, and personally experienced with my weight fluctuations.

I think a guy can look muscular and relatively big if he's 5 ft. 11. and 170 lbs at a super low body fat %, cut and shredded to hell at under 10% body fat, that guy to me will look as big, but probably more impressive than a guy who's 10 pounds heavier, but at almost twice the body fat.

If you think about it most MMA fighters in the welterweight division are about 5 ft 11., they fight at 170, but assuming they cut weight and enter the ringing 10 lbs heavier at 180, they still look pretty damn muscular at that weight (in my opinion), but probably won't be impressing too many hardcore body builders and power lifters. A guy that I automatically think of is welter weight champion Robbie Lawler, but I couldn't tell you how much weight he cuts then regains, or what his normal walking around non-fighting weight would be.

Also if you're lean as fuck, but lower weight, I think it becomes especially necessary to wear really well fitted tight clothing to show off your physique vs. a guy with 10-20 lbs more mass who will fill out a shirt much more easily. I knew a trainer who was my height at 5 ft 11. dude was strong as hell, super low body fat %, the definition of shredded out, but he has to be wearing a super small tank top or go shirtless to really show his physique. If you saw him in the winter time wearing a hoodie at the bar, he's just look like your average thin guy, not a guy who's incredibly strong, fit, and ripped.

[Mark Fletcher]

(11-14-2015 08:50 PM)Unkown_Killa Wrote:  

What mass would you need to be if you're shorter, like just under 5'7"?

I'm right about that height. In about the past year and a half I went from a scrawny 125-130 to about 150 and that small amount made a big difference, appearance wise. One of the benefits of being shorter I guess. I estimate I'm somewhere around 10-12% bodyfat. I can say that you definitely start to get comments when you hit about 145. About 145 is when I started getting asked if I lift weights, compliments, more attention from girls, etc. So if you're about 5'7 and scrawny, 150 is a decent goal.

That being said, right now I'm focusing on reaching 160. When I get there I'll see if I feel content with that or if I need to still get bigger.

[samsamsam]

So I am 5'10 about 180. Think it is better to get to 200 with a flat but not ripped stomach? I have been lifting with more intensity lately trying to really bust out the shoulders to look wider. Just thinking of the best way to go.

A buddy says you'll look bigger if you cut fat and when I cut over the summer, I did look bigger.

OGNorCal707 really made some good points.

[Moma]

(11-14-2015 06:48 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Quote:

Rex, pardon me if I'm redundant but how tall are you and how much do you currently weigh? What is your current body fat percentage? I will use this to determine what LBM you need (roughly as this is not an absolute science) in order to have the lizards 'coming up and pinching your muscles'.

I am 6' 1" and weigh about 220. I *think* I am probably around 20% or so. I started seeing some definition last month but then I started gaining some weight back.

Have you ever been 12% bodyfat or less before?

[StrikeBack]

We've been hearing a lot from the big blokes in this thread, but not all of us can be 100kg+ monsters.

I"m sharing some of my experiences as a 5'7" or 170cm man and weighing about 72kg or 157lb, just under 12% BF on the DEXA. I've been at this level for about a year now, and I'm working on dropping to 70kg for club boxing competitions. I also train for strength and fitness, not aesthetics, which is just a result of my training.

Just a bunch of random anecdotes, in no particular order:

In regular clothes, I just look in-shape. In tight fitting tops, my muscles are quite visible. Light coloured T-shirts or polos (sky blue is great) can even show my abs.

I look much bigger than the numbers above suggest. If you haven't got muscular and lean before, you will most likely overestimate how heavy you need to be.

It shows in the face. After getting to this level, I started to get a lot of looks from girls, even the ones I already know but have not seen in a while. I started getting called "handsome" a lot. Never thought I was, only knew that I was ok to look at. Girls love touching my face.

A curious thing happens with regards to Game: I started to get looks from the 7s and 8s (note: rating adjusted to Australian standards ), get cornered and groped by kaijus more often, and get mostly shut out by 5s and 6s, who used to be my bread and butter. For the first time in my life, I have been consistently successful with 7s and 8s. Initially I thought my improved looks were actually harming my game as I kept failing with 5s and 6s which I used to have an easier time with. Now I believe it's because they thought I was higher value and wouldn't take them seriously. Not all of them, of course. Some just proposed no string attached sex out right.

Obviously I'm no hulk, and cannot just stand there and attract girls like the bigger men can (e.g Bosch). I need to move around, showcasing my physique and athleticism through movements. I know lots of muscular smaller guys like myself through lifting and boxing, and they all make the same mistake when they're out hunting: standing still, folding their arms, holding too much muscle tension as if they really want to show off their muscles through posing. This may work for a big hunky guy but is terrible for a smaller guy. Relax, move, have open body language, trust that people will notice your good physique.

I just happen to be an excellent dancer, if you excuse my bragging for the purpose of this post. Girls used to enjoy my dancing anyway but with a better physique, this gets to the next level. Since my physique is not too obvious from afar, dancing works great because of the physical contact. Once they have their hands on my shoulder or back (I have particularly big shoulders and lats) or chest for the more forward one, I can see and feel the change in their attitude. Often they start to blush, stammer or in the case of my current girlfriend, lose their balance and hang on to me for support. I didn't know what was going on with the latter (they are pretty good dancers themselves) until she told me that she felt some serious tingles down there and got weak at the knees.

Don't skip leg day. When I wear shorts out in summer, my big quads and calves really stand out and girls do notice. Many have told me how they love a man with strong legs and make fun of various guys around us with skinny legs and hips collapsing inwardly.

Strong glutes, other than being great for thrusting, also give girls a great target to grope. Other than my shoulders, I constantly get compliments on my arse, especially when getting naked.

Biceps do get the girls, despite me hardly ever do curls. When walking down the streets for example, they love holding on to my arm and squeezing my bicep.

Abs are good indicators of how lean you are, but they are overrated. When I get intimate with a woman, I'm never really in a pose where she can see my 6 packs anyway. Nobody has visible abs lying down. Focus on other things like I mentioned above.

Strength is a huge turn-on. One girl nearly wet herself when, with a simple flick of my hips, I popped her off the floor and into my arms, effortlessly. My girlfriend is taller than me (although very slender and light), and I can easily pick her up, put her around my hips and dance around as if she weighs nothing. She seriously digs that.

Athleticism is also very attractive. Don't just be a meathead who can't really do anything but build muscles. This is where a smaller man can shine brighter than a bigger one, as we can be faster, more agile and athletic.

More later when I have time

[britchard]

This isn't meant to sound like a dig at you Rex, but how can you say that weightlifting barely affects attraction if you're at 20%BF and (I presume) never had abs?

Low BF% (abs) are a great tool in any type medium in getting women. Sexting, beach, bars (if they ask), the list goes on.

[Kieran]

(11-14-2015 07:57 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(11-14-2015 06:52 PM)Kieran Wrote:  

Exactly - Crawford at 165 and 5'11 is small by RVF standards, but is pretty damn big to anybody that hasn't been brainwashed by looking at muscle magazines and youtube videos. If you can't get girls looking like that, then you might as well give up. And like you I also suspect that some (not all) underestimate how much fat they are carrying, and how much muscle they would lose if they were to cut it (assuming they're natural).

As the conversation has shifted a bit, I wanted to come back on this.

Kieran's point about bf is absolutely spot on. I have been pretty guilty of this. I started cutting about a month ago, from 198lbs with visible abs, when flexed in decent lighting. I assumed I was most likely around 15%, given that I had some abs, had a flat stomach when relaxed, ate clean, and trained hard both strength and conditioning. I weighed myself this morning and I was down to 191, which is a 3.5% bf drop. If I'd correctly estimated my bf then that should have put me around 11.5%. There is no way I am at 11.5%, more likely I'm now down around 13%, I can say for certain that I will need to drop at least another 7lbs to get into the really looking lean bracket, taking me down to about 185lbs at 6'1. That'll be about 15lbs lost as a guy who was starting from a pretty solid position, visibly leaner still than most. As Kieran says, almost all of us are kidding ourselves on our bodyfat levels, and I've been pretty humbled by this dieting experience already. I don't expect to hit my targets until about Xmas time. Having initially thought I was about 4 weeks from being in great condition, the reality looks closer to 10 weeks.

An interesting point that relates to what constitutes big - I read in one of the old time strongman articles about the pre-steroid era strongmen that they considered a 15" arm on a lean (most of those guys were 10% max) man to be a powerful guy. Not a monster, or at the limit of genetic potential or anything, but a big, strong, powerful bloke none-the-less.

Interesting and honest post. What some people don't realise I think is that when somebody loses a significant amount of fat, there will be muscle loss too (it simply isn't possible to lose 100% fat).

On arm size, a 15 inch arm shredded (6-8% bodyfat) looks pretty decent. And again most people will lose at least an inch off their arms just going from 12% down to that kind of bodyfat. A 16 inch arm shredded is extremely rare on a natural.