[Parzival]

When you talk about Europe you have to make a difference between the single countries. The youth with no jobs is in Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal. All southern countries. On the other side many people in those countries own houses, more then Germany.
And Spain has also a super low birth rate, Italy and Greece also don't pop out kids like crazy. Furthermore the standard of living is in a big east - west / north - south gap. Some guy from Bulgaria or Romania would maybe better of when he get Hartz 4, basic welfare money in Germany.

We don't have gangs that shoot each other or places like Detroit in Germany. But when you walk to some places in the UK or France it look like the 3th world for me. In southern Europe they suffer a lot but the prices are low, nice weather and friendly people. Eastern Europe struggle too. So living in the south of Germany, Austria or the Netherlands give you a very good standard of living. Maybe not what in the US is consider as decent but I say in some way in Europe the people are more humble. When they make a decent living they are happy. They don't need that over the top stuff in general.
Even the refugee crisis don't affect the daily life in Germany that much as it seems.

[zatara]

(01-28-2016 08:54 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

That's why all of these claims of Europe being better than the USA are bullshit, because the people there have much lower living standards at nearly every level.

The average worker in Germany works 10.5 weeks less a year than the average American. Every worker in Germany is guaranteed a legal minimum of 29 days (6 working weeks) -> 33 days (6.5 working weeks) a year of leave. Many get more. In the US there is no statutory minimum. The additional difference in hours is from hours worked per week - Americans do a lot more overtime.

Now you might say what use are all these days of extra holidays a year if you have to live like a peasant, which might be true if you were talking about African levels of poverty. However Nominal GDP per capita in the US is $54,629. In Germany its $47,627.

So lets say you're a perfectly average earner in each country. Would you prefer to work 130% as many hours for an extra $7,000? Considering at $47.5k you're already likely leading a fairly comfortable life. I think most people would say no, if given the choice.

This is the number one reason why so many middle class Europeans travel the world extensively in their 20s, while its so uncommon for Americans.

[Samseau]

^ The reason people work more in the USA is because they are rewarded for it. No one forces them. Tons of people will work 100 hour workweeks for that 120K per year. These high earners skew the average enormously. Also, does that survey count unemployed? In the USA we have a big difference between the employed, who usually work a shit load, and the unemployed who do very little.

Compare the USA to Italy: they work almost as much as the USA, yet they are far poorer.

Parzival:

Quote:

Even the refugee crisis don't affect the daily life in Germany that much as it seems.

For now. Most people are blissfully unaware. Most people never pay attention to politics in general. I just got a new German neighbor, and he joked with me about how Trump is such a stupid crazy guy. I redpilled him and asked if Merkel would stay in power with the incoming huge influx of refugees. I asked him about how at the Davos summit Charles Schwab said he expected 1 Billion moving into Europe soon, and what they would do. He had no idea and said he never even thought about it.

And I'm sure if I had asked him a year ago what he would do if 1 million Muslims would come into his country and rape hundreds of women, he wouldn't have thought it about it or even thought it was possible either.

[Anabasis to Desta]

(01-28-2016 01:27 PM)zatara Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 08:54 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

That's why all of these claims of Europe being better than the USA are bullshit, because the people there have much lower living standards at nearly every level.

The average worker in Germany works 10.5 weeks less a year than the average American. Every worker in Germany is guaranteed a legal minimum of 29 days (6 working weeks) -> 33 days (6.5 working weeks) a year of leave. Many get more. In the US there is no statutory minimum. The additional difference in hours is from hours worked per week - Americans do a lot more overtime.

Now you might say what use are all these days of extra holidays a year if you have to live like a peasant, which might be true if you were talking about African levels of poverty. However Nominal GDP per capita in the US is $54,629. In Germany its $47,627.

So lets say you're a perfectly average earner in each country. Would you prefer to work 130% as many hours for an extra $7,000? Considering at $47.5k you're already likely leading a fairly comfortable life. I think most people would say no, if given the choice.

This is the number one reason why so many middle class Europeans travel the world extensively in their 20s, while its so uncommon for Americans.

No.

The number one reason Euros travel a lot is because hard work does not pay off.

Taking a year off to trek across South America and then maybe taking a semester off to "find themselves" in Thailand or go on a mission in Namibia does not affect their current or future earning potential since there is no big money to be made or goals to be chased that require time investment.

They have the choice between staying at home and living a mediocre life AND travelling around the world and living a mediocre life. So they choose the later.

[zatara]

(01-28-2016 01:34 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

^ The reason people work more in the USA is because they are rewarded for it. No one forces them. Tons of people will work 100 hour workweeks for that 120K per year. These high earners skew the average enormously. Also, does that survey count unemployed? In the USA we have a big difference between the employed, who usually work a shit load, and the unemployed who do very little.

Compare the USA to Italy: they work almost as much as the USA, yet they are far poorer.

It doesn't include the unemployed, only actual workers.

Speaking as someone who has worked in the US many white collar employers do effectively force you to work that much. If you're in many fields you will absolutely be judged negatively for taking weeks a year of holiday leave come promotion/contract renewal time. So nobody takes their days out of fear. In countries where you have legally mandated minimums of holiday leave everyone has to take them, so nobody gets judged. The same applies to doing overtime - peer pressure effectively.

re: Italy your own post states it; "These high earners [in the US] skew the average enormously." The average middle/low income earner in Italy has a more similar income to their counterparts in the US, and a far better life.

The problem with your "rewarded more" point is people aren't generally rewarded for it in the US. The minority top 10% of the population that are very successful are. Which is great for them - I don't think anyone is arguing that the US isn't a great country to be in the top 10% of earners in. I think its probably the best country in the world for someone in the top 10%.

The flip side of this is what makes the US so terrible for the 90%. No worker protection, horrible work practices, no social services etc. These all keep taxes low on the person earning $100k+ a year who's at senior managerial level, and profits high for big business, but make life fairly horrible for anyone on an average income.

[rudebwoy]

The biggest difference between Europe and USA is holidays and healthcare.

In USA, you get ten days off working your first year. Europe (UK) is a month off and can be more depending which country you live in.

Healthcare you pay for directly out of your pocket in America, don't ever get sick in America or you will pay big time. Unless, you have top medical coverage.

Comparing the USA to Italy is pointless, what economy does Italy have. Germany might be a better comparison, but I say Germany wins everytime. Germans have alot of spending power and really enjoy their six week vacations.

Everybody is quick to focus on the good things of America, the numbers are skewed because you have many guys that make billions of dollars. The divide between top and bottom is gigantic.

Americans have more personal debt than Europeans, the whole country is in debt. How many trillions is it now? Who will pay that debt, certainly not the bankers, elites and the rich. It will be the average citizen on the streets. Again, this should be more concern than muslim "gangs" in Europe. Talk to me about economics, what is Bernake going to do with interest rates, what about the price of oil, what about the disgusting water people have in Flint, Michigan, what about the 200 Walmart stores that are closing and many more to come.

As a Canadian, I am concerned about the depreciating currency. I am losing money as we speak.

[It_is_my_time]

The EU has more national debt than the USA. That is why they have Austerity measures over there taking away pensions and removing pay from govt. workers.

It is why I say, both systems are great for different people, but the European system is simply not sustainable because they are not productive enough to keep up in the global market place. As the USA adopts more of the European economic style, the more debt we pile up as well, and the less sustainable we become as well. But we are still far safer than Europe.

[rudebwoy]

Gap between Rich and Poor

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/poor.../?view=all

This article was from last year, so the numbers are worse I am sure. Of course the EU countries on the list are the PIGS nations.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2...faa0152cb3

EU consists of 26 countries vs USA which is one country.

[Moma]

I'm still amazed at the gibberish being spewed on here by some who have never left their region or travel with their eyes squeezed shut. I would love to challenge the biggest culprits to a respectable audio debate recorded. I want to hear your vocal pitch when you spew such madness and see if you have the gall to portray it with conviction.

[Anabasis to Desta]

(01-28-2016 02:37 PM)Moma Wrote:  

I'm still amazed at the gibberish being spewed on here by some who have never left their region or travel with their eyes squeezed shut. I would love to challenge the biggest culprits to a respectable audio debate recorded. I want to hear your vocal pitch when you spew such madness and see if you have the gall to portray it with conviction.

Where would you prefer to live assuming Germany was an English speaking country?

America/Canada or Germany/Denmark?

I find it interesting how you guys glorify Europe while taking advantage of all the opportunities North America has to offer.

[nomadbrah]

(01-28-2016 02:00 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Americans have more personal debt than Europeans, the whole country is in debt.

This is actually flat out wrong, it's the other way around:



Nordic countries have world records in debt.

The average Scandi has debt up to over both ears.

This ties in to my experience. Socialist European countries are zoos, some have nice cages than others, some are well fed, but essentially you're a kept animal - in chains of high debt, high taxes and massive public sector.

I don't claim life in a zoo can't be comfortable. For the weakest animals, their life expectancy is longer. For the stronger animal, it feels like this:

[Moma]

Ana, that's not the point I'm making, bro.

[rudebwoy]

(01-28-2016 02:54 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 02:37 PM)Moma Wrote:  

I'm still amazed at the gibberish being spewed on here by some who have never left their region or travel with their eyes squeezed shut. I would love to challenge the biggest culprits to a respectable audio debate recorded. I want to hear your vocal pitch when you spew such madness and see if you have the gall to portray it with conviction.

Where would you prefer to live assuming Germany was an English speaking country?

America/Canada or Germany/Denmark?

I find it interesting how you guys glorify Europe while taking advantage of all the opportunities North America has to offer.

I wouldn't live in Germany because I find it bland. There are alot of things they have that I think are cool and being in the center of Europe appeals to me.

I have no desire to live in America, I don't even like to vacation there. I am open minded enough to understand why people like living there.

I will say I like living in Canada, it is very clean, very safe and I actually like the fact we have many cultures. I am spoilt for choice when it comes to food and it has alot of the things I like here. I guess some of you would hate it because it is a multi-cultural society.

[Moma]

My point earlier, was that the poster who stated that US is great for the top percentage is correct.

But most people are average and for the average person, Europe is best. You say many people aim for the sky, I disagree. A lot of people just like to talk and rely on the lottery for them to join seats with the bigwigs.

To even try compare healthcare and vacation between US and Europe is straight trolling. As you should know, I am a former European resident who now lives in the US. I communicate almost daily with friends in Europe both in the UK and on the mainland. None of them work as hard as Americans do. My friends here work themselves to the bone. One of my former lizards works an average of 55 hours a week. She is saving money to fix something in her mum's home. All she does is work, go home, sleep, watch tv, drink and fcuk. Someone said that Americans work long hours a week because they want to but that's straight baloney. The lizard does it because that is the only way. My peers in Europe do NOT do this nor NEED to do it. Repairs needed on their mum's home would be covered by something else out of the hands of the lay person. I also know a few teachers who work and do something else on the side. I hang out with the average person..not these millionaires that some people seem to be using as a barometer..people whose lifestyles are far removed from normal society. The average person here can easily rack up 50-60 hours a week and snatch a vacation of about 7-10 days a year where they run to Bahamas or Cancun and get drunk etc. I know another guy who works in a hospital and sees people who are 50-55 who are committed to the ward, all fcuked up from long overtime hours throughout their lives. It is NOT healthy to live in that fashion and studies easily reflect that.

I like America and the choices it offers but I knew exactly what I was getting into when I came here of my own volition. However, I know what's up and I'm not going to create stories to help galvanise me into action. I don't need to conjure such things up.

As someone said, there are pros and cons to both continents (North America and Europe). It's all about your temperament and what you want to accomplish.

Again, I have lived as an adult in both countries so I think my word counts for something. This is not some rapid Google search that I did.

[Walker]

(01-28-2016 12:17 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 12:05 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Samseau, believe me when I tell you (though you probably won't :biggrin) Europeans overall lead pretty good lives, EVEN in this shitty period in their history. They work less, eat better and have more meaningful friendships/relationships than most Americans.

All you talk and care about is money, which is but one aspect. BUt there are social and cultural factors at work too. I'm not knocking on the US, it's a great place and I wouldn't live anywhere else at the moment, but for god's sake man get some perspective!

I think we can agree that for some people the European style is better and for other people the American style is better. It just depends if you are go getter or just want to take it easy and enjoy the ride. Neither is right or wrong.

The issue is the European way is not sustainable for more than a few generations. Your society has to constantly out work/out perform/out innovate other countries if you want to maintain a superior lifestyle. If not, then companies relocate to those more friendly/productive countries and the once first world countries become abandoned, with nothing remaining but poverty.

Go getters have it great in the rich parts of europe. They have far less time commitment to a busywork job and far more free time which they can spend on working towards their long term goal, whether that's by doing research, by sharpening skills or by making connections. To have that kind of free time in the US you need to be born to top 10%er parents who are willing to pay for a lot of your early adulthood.

[It_is_my_time]

(01-29-2016 04:03 AM)Walker Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 12:17 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 12:05 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Samseau, believe me when I tell you (though you probably won't :biggrin) Europeans overall lead pretty good lives, EVEN in this shitty period in their history. They work less, eat better and have more meaningful friendships/relationships than most Americans.

All you talk and care about is money, which is but one aspect. BUt there are social and cultural factors at work too. I'm not knocking on the US, it's a great place and I wouldn't live anywhere else at the moment, but for god's sake man get some perspective!

I think we can agree that for some people the European style is better and for other people the American style is better. It just depends if you are go getter or just want to take it easy and enjoy the ride. Neither is right or wrong.

The issue is the European way is not sustainable for more than a few generations. Your society has to constantly out work/out perform/out innovate other countries if you want to maintain a superior lifestyle. If not, then companies relocate to those more friendly/productive countries and the once first world countries become abandoned, with nothing remaining but poverty.

Go getters have it great in the rich parts of europe. They have far less time commitment to a busywork job and far more free time which they can spend on working towards their long term goal, whether that's by doing research, by sharpening skills or by making connections. To have that kind of free time in the US you need to be born to top 10%er parents who are willing to pay for a lot of your early adulthood.

Americans have plenty of time to do these things as well, if they choose to do so.

If you want to achieve financial freedom or financial greatness, the USA is just a far better place. If you want to just go about enjoying the ride of life, Europe is better.

But like I said above and will keep saying, the European model will not work for more than a few generations. Companies will continue to relocate out of Europe and move to countries where they can make more profit. In the global economy, you can no longer work lightly and compete and this is why the EU is in such bad financial shape.

[Samseau]

And the biggest flaw of all, which hasn't been mentioned so far, is that the EU spends virtually nothing on military compared to the USA. The USA pays for the EU's military protection, and the EU squanders the extra money they save on worthless social programs so people can waste their time on frivolities like traveling, drinking, smoking, and generally doing nothing.

The people don't reproduce with this free time, and now with the Islamic invasion on their doorstops we are all going to witness firsthand just how bad the European model of skimping on military in favor of bullshit social programs really is.

[rudebwoy]

^ You don't have plenty of free time in America, the model is about working hard. It is not uncommon to find people that have two jobs, I told my Euro cousins that once and they couldn't grasp that concept.
The good thing about America is that things are cheap, housing in some parts is dirt cheap. Basic goods are alot cheaper than most western countries. Most places in Western Europe are expensive, things like home ownership is a privilege.
America has outsourced alot of it's work and many companies have closed shop. The retail sector is dying quickly thanks to Amazon and people having less purchasing power. So don't give us the generic statements like the "European model will not work for more than a few generations". I am not saying things in Europe are rosy, far from it. I am painting a realistic picture.

[It_is_my_time]

(01-29-2016 10:15 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^ You don't have plenty of free time in America, the model is about working hard. It is not uncommon to find people that have two jobs, I told my Euro cousins that once and they couldn't grasp that concept.
The good thing about America is that things are cheap, housing in some parts is dirt cheap. Basic goods are alot cheaper than most western countries. Most places in Western Europe are expensive, things like home ownership is a privilege.
America has outsourced alot of it's work and many companies have closed shop. The retail sector is dying quickly thanks to Amazon and people having less purchasing power. So don't give us the generic statements like the "European model will not work for more than a few generations". I am not saying things in Europe are rosy, far from it. I am painting a realistic picture.

People do have time, if the choose to use it. I have 3 jobs, one of them being a nice paid full time job with benefits. I still have time to get to the gym and invest and live a very happy life. I just don't spend time watching TV or playing video games.

The European model simply will not work and never will work. You have to produce to survive and their system produces at an inferior rate v. their foreign competition. So companies and investors relocate to more business friendly climates and they are literally drowning in debt.

The US system is getting worse, I agree. We have fewer and fewer opportunities, due to globalization and technological advancements, but we continue to bring in another million people every year and then have to borrow more money for welfare programs. The USA, which is a generation behind Europe in socialist economics is also a generation behind Europe in women's voting rights, so we keep following their path of bankrupting ourselves. The women will keep voting in a bigger govt. until the whole thing pops, such as in the USSR or Communist China's old economic system.

[Moma]

Samseau, you are obsessed with Muslims! When you take the bus to the library, where do you think that gasoline is coming from? The Muslims, buddy! Please don't post up some crazy link to say that the oil is only from Texas and Alaska. Secondly, the Muslims are being let in by the people you rate, I said this already. I know quite a few Americans personally who work in the military and American presence in the Middle East is very significant.
When you think Muslim invasion, think profits, Samseau.
To say the average American has lots of free time is a glaring lie. I live in America now so I know. Working 50 hours or two jobs to fill 50-60 hours is a norm.

[Samseau]

(01-29-2016 10:15 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^ You don't have plenty of free time in America, the model is about working hard. It is not uncommon to find people that have two jobs, I told my Euro cousins that once and they couldn't grasp that concept.
The good thing about America is that things are cheap, housing in some parts is dirt cheap. Basic goods are alot cheaper than most western countries. Most places in Western Europe are expensive, things like home ownership is a privilege.
America has outsourced alot of it's work and many companies have closed shop. The retail sector is dying quickly thanks to Amazon and people having less purchasing power. So don't give us the generic statements like the "European model will not work for more than a few generations". I am not saying things in Europe are rosy, far from it. I am painting a realistic picture.

(01-29-2016 10:33 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Samseau, you are obsessed with Muslims! When you take the bus to the library, where do you think that gasoline is coming from? The Muslims, buddy! Please don't post up some crazy link to say that the oil is only from Texas and Alaska. Secondly, the Muslims are being let in by the people you rate, I said this already. I know quite a few Americans personally who work in the military and American presence in the Middle East is very significant.
When you think Muslim invasion, think profits, Samseau.
To say the average American has lots of free time is a glaring lie. I live in America now so I know. Working 50 hours or two jobs to fill 50-60 hours is a norm.

These problems may be addressed in the Trump administration. If they are fixed, your criticisms will no longer be valid. The outsourcing to slave labor countries like China will be fixed with better trade deals and tariffs. The reliance on Saudi oil will be fixed with an Alaska pipeline, and this will also provide mad jobs to Canadians as well! It would strengthen the loonie tremendously.

As for Muslim immigration - it is fine as long as we let in people who are willing to convert to the American way of life. One of my best friends is Turkish, and he is atheist. These guys are fine by any measure. True pureblood Muslims who follow the Koran to the letter are toxic and kill any culture they are part of. America will take the apostates of the Islamic world, and they can integrate beautifully. But we need a system to separate the the apostates from the zealous, so we don't get blown up to smithereens, or have rape gangs, or gunned down en masse all the time.

[Moma]

Sam, there is no way to tell an extreme Muslim at the border, similar to that there is no way to tell an extreme Christian, Hindu or Buddhist.

[zatara]

(01-29-2016 10:14 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

And the biggest flaw of all, which hasn't been mentioned so far, is that the EU spends virtually nothing on military compared to the USA. The USA pays for the EU's military protection, and the EU squanders the extra money they save on worthless social programs so people can waste their time on frivolities like traveling, drinking, smoking, and generally doing nothing.

€170bn a year is "virtually nothing"? You realise this is more than any nation on Earth bar China? Or are you perhaps speaking without being aware of the actual numbers? Short of any real external threats emerging this seems a perfectly sustainable amount of money to waste on the military industrial complex.

The US wastes it's population's blood and gold on invading countries in the Middle-East, unfortunately. The waste of lives and money are not something to aspire to. A more isolationist US foreign-policy (the sort Rand Paul advocates) would be far more beneficial for Americans.

-

The fact you think giving people more free time to enjoy their lives is frivolous speaks volumes about your life view. Spending more time with your family, exercise, travel... working 40 hours a week vs 60 makes a huge positive difference to anyone's life.

I worked in finance in the U.S. and was working 60 hours a week. I moved to Europe to do the same job, took a paycut of about 20%, and work 40 hours a week here. In either job I was completely financially secure, but in America between carefully balancing work/exercise/women/friends I never had any 'spare' time. And I didn't have a family to look after, luckily.

I get the impression that most people who are arguing "its possible to work 60+ hours a week and have a normal life!" have never actually tried it. In Europe I actually have time to read books, to spend quality time with my parents, to cook meals from scratch etc - to enjoy life. Not even mentioning the holiday time. When I have kids the difference will be even more pronounced - I'll be able to be an involved father, while not cutting back on the other aspects of my life. Good luck trying that working 60+ hours a week.

[Samseau]

Quote:

€170bn a year is "virtually nothing"?

For 500 million people? Damn straight that's nothing given how much money the EU makes.

Quote:

You realise this is more than any nation on Earth bar China? Or are you perhaps speaking without being aware of the actual numbers? Short of any real external threats emerging this seems a perfectly sustainable amount of money to waste on the military industrial complex.

I cannot get over the naivete of Europeans. You guys have had more wars than any other continent on the planet, and yet think that you don't need any military. If the USA pulled out all troops from Europe, you'd be ruled by a mass-murdering dictator in less than 50 years.

Have you ever read a history book before? Serious question, not trying to be rude. The lack of historical appreciation of what your content has been through is simply astounding.

The complete detachment from reality I see from most Europeans is how I'm going to make $800 off of them betting on Trump on 5dimes, those guys seriously thought he never had a chance. I'll probably make another $1200 from them when Trump is elected Pres. Europeans are sheep who believe whatever their media tells them.

Quote:

The US wastes it's population's blood and gold on invading countries in the Middle-East, unfortunately. The waste of lives and money are not something to aspire to. A more isolationist US foreign-policy (the sort Rand Paul advocates) would be far more beneficial for Americans.

Agreed, sort of. We need more protection at home and less intervention abroad. The amount we spend relative to the benefit we get is very low. Also, we should probably never pull our bases out of Germany given just how clueless the average European is.

Quote:

The fact you think giving people more free time to enjoy their lives is frivolous speaks volumes about your life view. Spending more time with your family, exercise, travel... working 40 hours a week vs 60 makes a huge positive difference to anyone's life.

Family? Lowest birthrates in the world. Europeans are doing anything except family.

Quote:

I get the impression that most people who are arguing "its possible to work 60+ hours a week and have a normal life!" have never actually tried it. In Europe I actually have time to read books, to spend quality time with my parents, to cook meals from scratch etc - to enjoy life. Not even mentioning the holiday time. When I have kids the difference will be even more pronounced - I'll be able to be an involved father, while not cutting back on the other aspects of my life. Good luck trying that working 60+ hours a week.

Other aspects of life? Smoking, drinking, promiscuity, playing video games, etc. These are frivolities by any definition. There is barely a family culture in Europe, who are you trying to fool? You guys think hedonism is important. There's no wonder you're being invaded and conquored by Islam.

[nomadbrah]

European model is in reality only Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France.

It won't last in any of them. Denmark has raised retirement age to 73 now. Good luck working manual labor until you're 73. Work until you drop, doesn't sound like Utopia to me, but an attempt to pass on the bill for boomer excess to their grandchildren.

European welfare is generational theft un massive scale.