Quote: (01-25-2016 11:13 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

It is better to live your life with the strident hope that you will make something of yourself one day than to wallow in complacent, state supported mediocrity like a pathetic turd.

The problem is that there is clear evidence, that social mobility is much worse in America than in other rich first world countries.

Quote: (01-26-2016 07:27 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

Quote: (01-25-2016 11:13 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

It is better to live your life with the strident hope that you will make something of yourself one day than to wallow in complacent, state supported mediocrity like a pathetic turd.

The problem is that there is clear evidence, that social mobility is much worse in America than in other rich first world countries.

Social mobility <> economic mobility and we are talking about economic mobility. There are so many more economic opportunities in the USA, which is a great benefit to men who want to do more than get by, than in Europe.

I wanted to move to Europe nearly 15 years ago, but realized it would have been worthless if I didn't stay in the USA and become wealthy first. Today, I am so glad I made that decision.

Quote: (01-26-2016 07:27 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

Quote: (01-25-2016 11:13 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

It is better to live your life with the strident hope that you will make something of yourself one day than to wallow in complacent, state supported mediocrity like a pathetic turd.

The problem is that there is clear evidence, that social mobility is much worse in America than in other rich first world countries.

What evidence?

Quote: (01-26-2016 09:12 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (01-26-2016 07:27 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

Quote: (01-25-2016 11:13 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

It is better to live your life with the strident hope that you will make something of yourself one day than to wallow in complacent, state supported mediocrity like a pathetic turd.

The problem is that there is clear evidence, that social mobility is much worse in America than in other rich first world countries.

What evidence?

Social mobility sounds like one of those terms you cannot quantify with hard numbers. Like when they do the "happiest country" and it is always Denmark or Sweden. Denmark and Sweden look like hell to me, unless I was born rich and could just string women along.

German autoworkers are very well paid.

http://www.remappingdebate.org/article/tale-two-systems

Quote:Quote:

In 2010, over 5.5 million cars were produced in Germany, twice the 2.7 million built in the United States. Average compensation (a figure including wages and employer-paid benefits) for autoworkers in Germany was 48.97 Euros per hour ($67.14 US), while compensation for auto work in the United States averaged $33.77 per hour, or about half as much as in Germany, all according to 2007 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. For Germany-based auto producers, the U.S. is a low-wage country.

Despite German companies’ relatively high labor costs in their home markets, these firms are quite profitable. An examination of the latest publically available financial statements of BMW, Daimler (Mercedes-Benz cars), and Volkswagen reveals strong sales and profits even in the midst of the currently weak consumer markets in Europe and the U.S. In 2010, for example, BMW, produced 1.48 million cars (63 percent of them in Germany), and earned a before-tax profit from its automotive division of 3.88 billion Euros. The Mercedes-Benz car division of Daimler, likewise produced 1.35 million cars (72.4 percent in Germany) in 2010, and earned a before-tax profit of 4.65 billion Euros.

Quote: (01-25-2016 11:06 AM)zatara Wrote:  

The average Joe in Alabama does not live a better life than the average Hans in Germany, that's fairly obvious to anyone who's been to both countries. The top 10% or so of Americans however do live a far better lifestyle than their equivalent in Europe, mostly due to lower taxes and less state regulation on business owners/workers rights for the working class. America is probably the best country in the world to be wealthy in, all things considered (a combination of safety/taxes/public services etc).

The bottom 90% in America though would be far better living in a European social-democratic state due to free university education, free healthcare, legally mandated paternity/maternity/sick leave, minimum weeks of holiday leave, generous unemployment benefit etc. Social mobility is much higher, quality of life is better and the social safety net is a very real thing.

The problem with this is that most Americans see themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" (to quote Steinbeck). The majority of Americans think they're upper middle class, or will be, when statistically they both aren't and will never be. Its a country-wide self delusion that shows itself in working class people voting for lower income tax rates (which primarily benefit high earners), being anti-union etc.

The upper class in America have done a wonderful job since the 1960s of demonizing the poor, which deflects attention from themselves. For the average American reading this forum its not minorities on food stamps you should be angry about, its Paris Hilton or Dan Bilzerian paying negligible amounts of income tax.

Great points!

Denmark is lovely. But living there would suck away my drive to be successful. For better or for worse, someone in denmark working for mcdonalds can make enough to rent their own small one bedroom apartment, this is not possible anywhere in england.

A big element of people becoming successful is adversity, there just isnt much of that in denmark. Whether this is good or bad depends on your mindset.

I bet most people here won't believe if I told them that working at Mccies is an actual career here. They have like a 3 month hiring process and the salaries are quite respectable.

Edit: Suck away my drive? What drives me in Sweden is the idea of getting the fuck out of here to be honest.

Even when you work at a german supermarket like Aldi or Lidl you make quite a good salary.

Quote: (01-26-2016 06:07 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

Even when you work at a german supermarket like Aldi or Lidl you make quite a good salary.

Of course. Everyone makes a "good salary" and has a "good job", which should sound familiar to Americans when listening to Obama/Bernie/Hillary.

The problem is, there isn't as great of a chance at greatness or success like in the USA. I didn't bust my ass going to college, and work my ass off at a demanding job for over a decade to make just a little bit more after taxes, and maybe even less, than someone who lazes around and works a very low stress minimum wage type of job.

And on top of that, because I am not taxed to death to pay for public transportation I would likely not use and a healthcare system I would not use, I have been able to save up a ton, invest in many different avenues, and achieve financial security. Something an extremely tiny number of Europeans my age have.

And that is what I want in my life. Everyone should choose for themselves, it depends if you want a chance to bust your ass and achieve greatness, or have a guaranteed safety net with no real chance at greatness.

I agree with you, I never use the health care system but still pay for it. Furthermore when you have ambitions to stand out, you get hold back far more. Europe vs USA have just a different set of mentality.
I for example admire the business spirit in the US, how you guys come up even here with side ideas for income and so on. Its now with the internet a little bit more easy in germany but still hard because we don't have that mentality.

Many people here just want to play it safe, make a decent living. They don't care that much about to fancy stuff. Its almost consider as show off or arrogant. When you drive a big care people don't say, who lucky you. You made it. They think, oh he is a wannabe. When I see people that have more success I try to know how did they reach it. Many others feel jealous or offended because it shows their own lack of spirit.

Furthermore now it is like that, you work your whole life, be a brave little worker and pay your taxes but at the end you have nothing left. Some have a house that they have to sell because they did the calculation wrong, others never build up some extra money when they retire because they complete trust in the welfare system. Even when everybody tells that this money will be low. Also Germans don't invest in the stock market or other stuff. They just keep it all at the bank or waste it. When you have a different mentality, more ambitions you are also seen critical with companies, because you make the others look lazy.

The whole safety net hold down many great ambitions. Germany has not that big outstanding companies. But we work hard and try to improve on the little scale. Thats why we are so good in some basic fields like cars and manufacturing. And those companies create more jobs then Amazon, Uber, Apple or Google. Those companies are worth Millions but the average worker don't get much out of it and a few get it all.
And I'm not sure if take away the safety net would create more ambition because in the US also not everyone make it. Maybe I should search for jobs in the US now, when a crazy indian that assault an uber driver can still party in a 2000$ apartment, I need to to more.

Quote: (01-26-2016 09:14 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Quote: (01-26-2016 09:12 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (01-26-2016 07:27 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

Quote: (01-25-2016 11:13 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

It is better to live your life with the strident hope that you will make something of yourself one day than to wallow in complacent, state supported mediocrity like a pathetic turd.

The problem is that there is clear evidence, that social mobility is much worse in America than in other rich first world countries.

What evidence?

Social mobility sounds like one of those terms you cannot quantify with hard numbers. Like when they do the "happiest country" and it is always Denmark or Sweden. Denmark and Sweden look like hell to me, unless I was born rich and could just string women along.

I think we can talk about hard numbers: Economic mobility is the ability of an individual, family or some other group to improve (or lower) their economic status—usually measured in income. Economic mobility is often measured by movement between income quintiles.


Social mobility is the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to others' social location within a given society.

My only doubt is that if this is actually a zero sum game. I mean, by defintion, there will always be somebody in the lowest quintile. So for people to move up, others need "to move down".

Some people here have also questioned the fact that post-secondary education is being used as a metric in some studies. And that it favours european countries since University is "free" or very cheap in many nations here in Europe compared to America. Which is true. But I think it makes sense, since I think we can all agree that having access to quality education is generally the best way of getting out of poverty for many people. A lack of access to higher education, is a major problem for African Americans in the US and why a majority they remain poor.

Also, the main thing that popped into my head, when I was reading you guys, is that European societies (specially Scandinavia) are just more collectivist (like Japan, but not in such a hardcore way) than individualistic, like America. For good and bad. That´s why some europeans perceive Americans to be more "egotistical". I guess it´s a result of our different History.

Obliviously it has many positive aspects like entrepreneurial spirit and drive to achieve greatness. But please don´t make the mistake of thinking that that isn´t also possible in Europe. Some of the greatest scientists and Entrepreneurs have been born in Europe: Armancio Ortega, Ingvar Kamprad, Richard Branson, Hasso Plattner etc.

Social mobility is a bullshit term invented by Communists. Today's poor are better off than Kings of 1000 years ago by a landslide.

What good is social mobility if the underlying society is shit? Poor and rich are relative zero-sum terms, as Freeuser points out. It's like saying the Olympics are good only if everyone can win a gold medal.

It doesn't matter who wins. What matters is if tangible living standards improve. That's why all of these claims of Europe being better than the USA are bullshit, because the people there have much lower living standards at nearly every level. Using metrics like "education" to improve scores is an obvious tell-tell sign of statistical manipulation as well. The whole argument, from top to bottom, is bullshit.

Quote: (01-28-2016 08:54 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Social mobility is a bullshit term invented by Communists. Today's poor are better off than Kings of 1000 years ago by a landslide.

What good is social mobility if the underlying society is shit? Poor and rich are relative zero-sum terms, as Freeuser points out. It's like saying the Olympics are good only if everyone can win a gold medal.

It doesn't matter who wins. What matters is if tangible living standards improve. That's why all of these claims of Europe being better than the USA are bullshit, because the people there have much lower living standards at nearly every level. Using metrics like "education" to improve scores is an obvious tell-tell sign of statistical manipulation as well. The whole argument, from top to bottom, is bullshit.

I disagree. The american dream is all about social and economic mobility. Everybody has trough hard work, sacrifice, talent and intelligence the opportunity to be successful and improve in their social standing. It´s only shitty countries of the third world, that have almost no economic mobility. It means there is a form of aristocracy or elite that no matter how inept, always remains in a position of power and wealth (Bush family).

I´d rather have the most apt people reach the top, even if they are from a poor background than the ones with the "right" family name. Everybody deserves a shot, to prove what they´re made of. Even capitalism itself is about this or else we would still have AOL, Lycos or Blackberry around instead of Google, Amazon and PayPal.

Quote: (01-28-2016 10:28 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

I´d rather have the most apt people reach the top, even if they are from a poor background than the ones with the "right" family name.

The top of what? Some tyrannical shitpile? What would being the top of the Nazism, Communism, or Islam mean? Top is again a relative term that is meaningless without a context.

I wouldn't want to be at the top of Sweden, I wouldn't want to be in Sweden in the coming years for anything.

Quote:Quote:

Everybody deserves a shot, to prove what they´re made of. Even capitalism itself is about this or else we would still have AOL, Lycos or Blackberry around instead of Google, Amazon and PayPal.

What you do not understand is that these "improvements" (which are marginal) only happen because the political climate in which they exist allows competition over market resources.

The underlying politics are what are necessary. The results are mere side effects; they simply happen once the political ground has been fertilized for things to happen.

People who focus on effects without focusing on causes are the mark of terrible thinkers, and disingenuous politicians. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by such logic.

Quote: (01-28-2016 10:42 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2016 10:28 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

I´d rather have the most apt people reach the top, even if they are from a poor background than the ones with the "right" family name.

The top of what? Some tyrannical shitpile? What would being the top of the Nazism, Communism, or Islam mean? Top is again a relative term that is meaningless without a context.

I wouldn't want to be at the top of Sweden, I wouldn't want to be in Sweden in the coming years for anything.

Do I really need to explain everything? CEOs, Executives, Governors, Congressmen, Mayors etc. that´s what I mean with the top.

Quote:Quote:

Everybody deserves a shot, to prove what they´re made of. Even capitalism itself is about this or else we would still have AOL, Lycos or Blackberry around instead of Google, Amazon and PayPal.

Quote: (01-28-2016 10:42 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

What you do not understand is that these "improvements" (which are marginal) only happen because the political climate in which they exist allows competition over market resources.

The underlying politics are what are necessary. The results are mere side effects; they simply happen once the political ground has been fertilized for things to happen.

People who focus on effects without focusing on causes are the mark of terrible thinkers, and disingenuous politicians. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by such logic.

I agree. And in Europe we also have many world leading industrial corporations. Someone might think we live in the fucking Soviet Union when reading some of the gloomy stuff in this thread.

^ It is laughable, look how many Americans are living in poverty. How many are going to food banks? How many are unemployed, it runs close to 20 million or more.

I have talked to members on this forum who live in the "hood". Yes, on the flipside we have some members here that do very well in life.

Nowhere is perfect, every country has it's problems.

Some people need to look at problems in their back yard, before worrying about issues overseas.

I suspect the OP was trolling with this title.

Quote: (01-28-2016 11:11 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^ It is laughable, look how many Americans are living in poverty. How many are going to food banks? How many are unemployed, it runs close to 20 million or more.

I have talked to members on this forum who live in the "hood". Yes, on the flipside we have some members here that do very well in life.

Nowhere is perfect, every country has it's problems.

Some people need to look at problems in their back yard, before worrying about issues overseas.

I suspect the OP was trolling with this title.

Youth unemployment in Europe is way higher than US. Only reason Germany and Nordic states have low youth unemployment is because they don't have any kids.

You don't understand, the world's problems are America's problems. If Europe descends into mass carnage the draft is called in America. If warlords take over Europe then in a few generations there will be invasions into America, either through Canada or South America (whoever decides to side with the Muslims and ISIS). A place like Venezuela might decide to accept mass Islamic immigration in return for $$$, for example.

You're part of the same crowd who defends mass immigration and globalization, then criticize people who care about the degeneration of polities outside of their own. The world is global now, and has been since WW2; there is nothing anyone can do without affecting someone else.

Quote: (01-28-2016 11:05 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2016 10:42 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2016 10:28 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

I´d rather have the most apt people reach the top, even if they are from a poor background than the ones with the "right" family name.

The top of what? Some tyrannical shitpile? What would being the top of the Nazism, Communism, or Islam mean? Top is again a relative term that is meaningless without a context.

I wouldn't want to be at the top of Sweden, I wouldn't want to be in Sweden in the coming years for anything.

Do I really need to explain everything? CEOs, Executives, Governors, Congressmen, Mayors etc. that´s what I mean with the top.

The CEO of what? Some corporation that is transformed in a SJW machine promoting homosexuality all day? (such as starbucks)

The executive of what? A company that is forced to hire "diversity"?

The governor of what? A state flooded with violent Muslims?

The congressmen of what? A country that invades and plunders others for a living, or betrays its fellow citizens to stay in power?

The mayor of what? A town flooded with rapefugees and crime?

Being at the top means nothing if the underlying pile is shit. Social mobility is a nonsense term because it is relative, and relativity is meaningless without a context.

It doesn't make sense to focus on relative terms, it makes sense to focus on objective contexts. Winning the game means nothing if the game sucks.

Quote:Quote:

Quote:Quote:

Everybody deserves a shot, to prove what they´re made of. Even capitalism itself is about this or else we would still have AOL, Lycos or Blackberry around instead of Google, Amazon and PayPal.

Quote: (01-28-2016 10:42 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

What you do not understand is that these "improvements" (which are marginal) only happen because the political climate in which they exist allows competition over market resources.

The underlying politics are what are necessary. The results are mere side effects; they simply happen once the political ground has been fertilized for things to happen.

People who focus on effects without focusing on causes are the mark of terrible thinkers, and disingenuous politicians. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by such logic.

I agree. And in Europe we also have many world leading industrial corporations. Someone might think we live in the fucking Soviet Union when reading some of the gloomy stuff in this thread.

You won't have leading anything for much longer if your politicians aren't stopped real soon.

Quote: (01-28-2016 08:54 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

That's why all of these claims of Europe being better than the USA are bullshit, because the people there have much lower living standards at nearly every level.

How's my living standard here (Austria/Switzerland/Southern Germany) much lower than in the US?
I'd be curious to hear more about that.

I've been to Switzerland several times and I'd say it's nicer than most of the USA. But it's very small, so you can only compare it to some very expensive parts of the US. The cities are a bit boring, compared to other countries.

It's like if you combined the nicer parts of Vermont with Lake Tahoe, Marin Co. and Greenwich, CT.

Quote: (01-28-2016 11:27 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2016 11:11 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^ It is laughable, look how many Americans are living in poverty. How many are going to food banks? How many are unemployed, it runs close to 20 million or more.

I have talked to members on this forum who live in the "hood". Yes, on the flipside we have some members here that do very well in life.

Nowhere is perfect, every country has it's problems.

Some people need to look at problems in their back yard, before worrying about issues overseas.

I suspect the OP was trolling with this title.

Youth unemployment in Europe is way higher than US. Only reason Germany and Nordic states have low youth unemployment is because they don't have any kids.

You don't understand, the world's problems are America's problems. If Europe descends into mass carnage the draft is called in America. If warlords take over Europe then in a few generations there will be invasions into America, either through Canada or South America (whoever decides to side with the Muslims and ISIS). A place like Venezuela might decide to accept mass Islamic immigration in return for $$$, for example.

You're part of the same crowd who defends mass immigration and globalization, then criticize people who care about the degeneration of polities outside of their own. The world is global now, and has been since WW2; there is nothing anyone can do without affecting someone else.

Strong statement full of your typical over the comment remarks. I am a son of a immigrant family, who moved twice from their "home" countries for better opportunities. No handouts or programs needed, just pure hard work. There are millions of them in Canada and USA who have done the same thing.

I know you are a mix breed, so I suspect one or more of your relatives came over on a boat or plane from Asia.

I don't support Globalization, because it screws countries in the west. I am one of the dumb mofos who actually tries to buy products in Canada and the USA, yeah people laugh at me.

You aren't a dumb guy, you know which evil forces are pulling the strings. Why not do something about it? Why not fly to Europe and help your brothers in arms. It's so much easier and cheaper to talk crap from your warm suburban home.

Yes you are right, they will call the draft in soon. I figure you will be ready to fight for what you believe in.

I at least have been to these countries that people talk about, I got shaken down twice at the german border. I guess they thought I was a refugee, so I find it funny now they are letting them in with no problems.

Samseau, believe me when I tell you (though you probably won't ) Europeans overall lead pretty good lives, EVEN in this shitty period in their history. They work less, eat better and have more meaningful friendships/relationships than most Americans.

All you talk and care about is money, which is but one aspect. BUt there are social and cultural factors at work too. I'm not knocking on the US, it's a great place and I wouldn't live anywhere else at the moment, but for god's sake man get some perspective!

Quote: (01-28-2016 12:05 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Samseau, believe me when I tell you (though you probably won't :biggrin) Europeans overall lead pretty good lives, EVEN in this shitty period in their history. They work less, eat better and have more meaningful friendships/relationships than most Americans.

All you talk and care about is money, which is but one aspect. BUt there are social and cultural factors at work too. I'm not knocking on the US, it's a great place and I wouldn't live anywhere else at the moment, but for god's sake man get some perspective!

I think we can agree that for some people the European style is better and for other people the American style is better. It just depends if you are go getter or just want to take it easy and enjoy the ride. Neither is right or wrong.

The issue is the European way is not sustainable for more than a few generations. Your society has to constantly out work/out perform/out innovate other countries if you want to maintain a superior lifestyle. If not, then companies relocate to those more friendly/productive countries and the once first world countries become abandoned, with nothing remaining but poverty.

Quote: (01-28-2016 11:36 AM)Celtic_Austrian Wrote:  

Quote: (01-28-2016 08:54 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

That's why all of these claims of Europe being better than the USA are bullshit, because the people there have much lower living standards at nearly every level.

How's my living standard here (Austria/Switzerland/Southern Germany) much lower than in the US?
I'd be curious to hear more about that.

I'm talking about averages. Citing your individual case doesn't mean anything. Those three countries you cite are literally the top of the crop of Europe, although it remains to be seen for how long.

Once upon a time, Egypt was the richest place in the world.


Rude:

Quote:Quote:

You aren't a dumb guy, you know which evil forces are pulling the strings. Why not do something about it? Why not fly to Europe and help your brothers in arms.

Believe it or not, I can do more about it in America than I can from Europe. Convincing other Americans to change their ways has the most effect on the rest of the world. Not to mention, Europe isn't accepting immigrants who aren't Islamic.

Also yes, my family are immigrants, both on my father and mother's side. I have nothing against orderly immigration which involves screening candidates. Banning most forms of Islam, for example, is a great idea.

Tiger:

Quote:Quote:

Samseau, believe me when I tell you (though you probably won't) Europeans overall lead pretty good lives, EVEN in this shitty period in their history. They work less, eat better and have more meaningful friendships/relationships than most Americans.

All you talk and care about is money, which is but one aspect. BUt there are social and cultural factors at work too. I'm not knocking on the US, it's a great place and I wouldn't live anywhere else at the moment, but for god's sake man get some perspective!

Not saying everything is better. Certainly the women in Europe tend to be better. But honestly women can be imported, having a country that isn't trying to kill you is far more important.

Also, what part of the US do you reside in? The way people live in the interior parts of America matches how many in Europe live. It's the coastal regions of America which have become dystopian, at least culturally.