[Teedub]

(07-15-2015 01:13 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 12:32 PM)extracube Wrote:  

Is it just me or are a lot od RVF forum members getting all social justicy?

Could you expand on that some more, especially in the context of this thread?

I'll hazard a guess.

Members jumping to conclusions to condemn this man before actually learning about the nuances of the case. I wouldn't say it's necessarily "social justicy", but more a general product of the millenial internet generation - of which online 'activism' was born, of course.

[TheWastelander]

It is very easy to assume that everyone who was in any way associated with a group you were raised to reflexively think of as completely and utterly evil is guilty right off the bat of some crime.

I think it is telling that this man, who: committed no murders, tried to transfer away from Auschwitz, expressed regret at ever being a small cog in the machine there and combated holocaust deniers is effectively going to receive a death sentence.

This is merciless revenge and symptomatic of a witch hunt that will likely never end (and one which is currently taboo and criminal in some places to criticize openly) even when there are no more suspected witches to burn. New ones will be created.

I'm sure one of these prosecutors can find a half-dead janitor who worked at one of these facilities or a spouse of one who "should've done more" to stop things they were completely powerless to stop.

[Checkmat]

I wouldn't call the RVF's in this thread pushing for "social" justice. Simply "justice."

[el mechanico]

He's a menace to society and probably could fall back to his old ways. Four years though? Very generous he should get 50 to life!

[tomtud]

Teedub made a good point how it would be better if he would speak to schools as a sort of community service to teach about the horrors of war, hatred etc.

Genocide, holocausts sadly have been committed and will continue. From the expulsion for lack of better words of religious sects other than Islam in Saudi arabia to the native Indians in the Americas to Isis today,,, it still is prevalent.

I agree with teedub ,, have him do community service work regarding this issue. It would better serve the people than having him sit in a cell.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Before the eve of Fascist Italy falling to American troops surging from Sicily, Mussolini always brought up his successful invasion of Ethiopia and Albania to rally up his troops. For every defeat, a past victory needs to be brought up, so the collective doesn't have to face the truth.

Distractions. These are all distractions.

The SCOTUS decision for gay marriage was a distraction for Obamacare finally slipping through.

The Confederate flag fiasco was a distraction from the TPP, a victory for East Asian nations.

Why is it so sporadic that this 94 year-old man is taken out of dormancy and into prison? This trial is more suited as a trailer for a Captain America film than as a modern-day contention. We won World War II against the Nazi's. Obama lost to Iran yesterday during the nuclear deal. Insecurity abounds.

[iamdegaussed]

It seems as though he spent most of his life trying to atone for what he did. Making him die in a prison is barbaric.

[RoastBeefCurtains4Me]

Part of me feels sympathetic to this guy

However, if the SJWs get their way, we'll all go straight from the train to the gas chambers like the countless people he enthusiastically processed. I hope the neomasculine culture 85 years from now is ready to prosecute all of them to the end of their lives. I don't feel sorry for the androgynous chubby girl who "processes" my assets.

[Teedub]

(07-15-2015 12:32 PM)extracube Wrote:  

Is it just me or are a lot od RVF forum members getting all social justicy?

Whilst I answered your question for you...just a quick heads up: It isn't good practice here to start calling out other more established members when you have such a low post/rep count yourself.

That said, I am quite surprised at guys saying this old man deserves this jailing. Especially without researching his history further. Yes, he was in the SS willingly, but as I said - is that really surprising? It was the elite organisation in the Nazi regime, and if you'd been told since school that it was the way to be a top member of society (believing that there truly would be a 1000 year Reich), it isn't surprising that many people strived to join.

He was featured in the acclaimed Laurence Rees documentary series 'Nazis: A Warning From History' (highly recommended by the way to those interested in this period) and an article about the programme said the following:

Quote:

He had always refused to talk about Auschwitz even to his own family but now he wanted to give witness against the Holocaust deniers, such as friends at his local philately club, who had insisted the camps were all a lie. That was why he said on film: "I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened, because I was there."

There's a few members on here, even very highly repped ones, who think the Holocaust was somewhat fabricated by others (Israel/USA etc), I cannot understand how you can think that - when you have people who were there who tell you they saw it and took part in it, however mildly.

It's also interesting how the people who hate Jews the most (hardcore Muslims) also are most likely to dismiss the Holocaust as truth. It's almost like they want to cling on to their hatred of Jews without acknowledging that something terrible happened to them, because it's only normal to feel sympathy for Holocaust survivors - and I guess that creates a kind of cognitive dissonance.

For all my talk about the bad stuff of multiculturalism and so on, I wouldn't ever wish for what happened in those camps on anyone. Ever.*

Truly blood curdling some of the first-hand accounts. I can't imagine how awful it would be to have those doors close on the 'shower rooms', the lights to go out and then for you to finally realise what's about to happen to you. Imagine being a kid and how truly nightmarish that would be like? Ever seen Boy In The Striped Pajamas...that end scene

* The only time I'd OK it would be with guys like ISIS. That's the only time I'd probably take some sick satisfaction in seeing a guy like Amon Goeth in action (that's Ralph Fiennes, playing him, from Schindler's List below). I love my German friends, but bloody hell if there's a more rule-bound peoples - please point them out! It honestly doesn't surprise me that it was that country that did killing so efficiently.



If Germany ever gets over it's guilt, allah help radical Islam. That said, Shia Islam seems a lot better than Wahhabi Sunni Islam...if Shia's were the dominant sect in the Middle East you'd be seeing a very different place. All the Shia's I've met in my life have been a lot more moderate - even if they don't drink alcohol, they'll still come to the pub and hang out etc. The sooner Saudi runs out of oil the better. Assad and Putin should team up and help Iran to wipe out the Wahhabis/Salafis (that includes ISIS).

[captndonk]

(07-15-2015 05:38 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

There's a few members on here, even very highly repped ones, who think the Holocaust was somewhat fabricated by others (Israel/USA etc), I cannot understand how you can think that - when you have people who were there who tell you they saw it and took part in it, however mildly.

There are other people who were there who say there wasn't gas chambers.

For me it is impossible to decide which side is right.

But in Germany you go to jail of you say that there were no gas chambers.
And if you try to prove your claims in the trial your evidence will not be accepted by the court because they say it's all obvious. If your lawyer tries to present your arguments then he will go to jail as well.

The court will say that you are guilty of holocaust denying, which is also a fraud because you can only deny the holocaust if you know that it happened. However, the people they convict believe that they are right.

So this law is clearly violating these peoples right to free speech, but of course nobody cares because these are all "nazis" or at least "anti-semitic."

[Onto]

(07-15-2015 05:54 PM)captndonk Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 05:38 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

There's a few members on here, even very highly repped ones, who think the Holocaust was somewhat fabricated by others (Israel/USA etc), I cannot understand how you can think that - when you have people who were there who tell you they saw it and took part in it, however mildly.

There are other people who were there who say there wasn't gas chambers.

For me it is impossible to decide which side is right.

But in Germany you go to jail of you say that there were no gas chambers.
And if you try to prove your claims in the trial your evidence will not be accepted by the court because they say it's all obvious. If your lawyer tries to present your arguments then he will go to jail as well.

The court will say that you are guilty of holocaust denying, which is also a fraud because you can only deny the holocaust if you know that it happened. However, the people they convict believe that they are right.

So this law is clearly violating these peoples right to free speech, but of course nobody cares because these are all "nazis" or at least "anti-semitic."

If Germany itself has developed such harsh laws around holocaust denial and enforces them strictly, that is very telling don't you think?

[Teedub]

(07-15-2015 05:54 PM)captndonk Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 05:38 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

There's a few members on here, even very highly repped ones, who think the Holocaust was somewhat fabricated by others (Israel/USA etc), I cannot understand how you can think that - when you have people who were there who tell you they saw it and took part in it, however mildly.

There are other people who were there who say there wasn't gas chambers.

For me it is impossible to decide which side is right.

But in Germany you go to jail of you say that there were no gas chambers.
And if you try to prove your claims in the trial your evidence will not be accepted by the court because they say it's all obvious. If your lawyer tries to present your arguments then he will go to jail as well.

The court will say that you are guilty of holocaust denying, which is also a fraud because you can only deny the holocaust if you know that it happened. However, the people they convict believe that they are right.

So this law is clearly violating these peoples right to free speech, but of course nobody cares because these are all "nazis" or at least "anti-semitic."

If the gas chambers didn't exist...why were there such efforts by Himmler and such, to try and:

1) Hide their existence (with documented papers etc) from normal German civilians, due to them knowing possible resistance. Also, why do many Polish people describe with extensive descriptions, witnessing them. With matching accounts from random other Poles.

2) Then create orders to destroy all evidence of them. The fanaticism by the SS to destroy them actually facilitated the escape of Jews during the confusion.

My main question is, why are some people so eager to think it's a hoax? Please don't say it's just healthy scepticism, because it isn't. There's an ideological drive behind holocaust questioning/denial.

I'll take Rudolf Hoess' testimony over anything quite frankly, since it's quite clear he not only took part in it, but absolutely agreed with it.:
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ft...stest.html

[TheWastelander]

Holocaust denialism has nothing to do with this thread.

[Teedub]

(07-15-2015 06:09 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Holocaust denialism has nothing to do with this thread.

It does, because that's the main reason the man being jailed is, in fact, being jailed. As you said, he was 'outed' for fighting against deniers.

[TheWastelander]

He's been jailed because various powerful interests, including an entire country, are obsessed with eternally guilt-tripping Germany over this and using the Holocaust as an excuse to justify all sorts of present bad behavior.

[samsamsam]

It is crazy to think that some people think the Holocaust didn't occur and there were no gas chambers.

Gonna have to re-think the human hair I saw at Auschwitz. What did I see? An illusion? Hmmmm.

Somehow a whole bunch of survivors (the victims and the Germans) provide verbal accounting of the same thing, plus all the physical evidence, but that isn't enough. Wait, maybe the Jews and other victims had a pow wow with the Germans at the end of the war. "How do we explain that it was a giant orgy? Wait I don't want anyone to know that. Ok let's make up a story where we killed and murdered civilians. That will cover it up."

Sometimes, I do wish I was so hard headed to refuse to believe anything that goes contrary to what I believe. However, I don't have that skill. The truth is the truth and opinions play no role in the truth.

[Teedub]

(07-15-2015 06:18 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

He's been jailed because various powerful interests, including an entire country, are obsessed with eternally guilt-tripping Germany over this and using the Holocaust as an excuse to justify all sorts of present bad behavior.

OK. I thought we were arguing the same thing - maybe not. He was put on trial originally because of a result of said 'self-outing'. Yes, everything you said about powerful interests is true, I think. I'm not an Israel fan by the way, as I said - I'm a fan of Assad and Iran.

It's funny - as it's probably been done to be seen 'to take a stance' against growing anti-semitism in Europe...but as we know, that isn't coming from elderly white Germans.

[Libertas]

(07-15-2015 06:05 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

My main question is, why are some people so eager to think it's a hoax? Please don't say it's just healthy scepticism, because it isn't. There's an ideological drive behind holocaust questioning/denial.

Because there's been a whole SJW victim industry that's been built around the holocaust for a long time, which helps to justify many facets of the poisonous leftist narrative we are now dealing with, and has helped Jews and Israel shield themselves from any criticism. The holocaust has been heavily politicized.

So I can only think that the people who want to deny the holocaust deep down just want to remove that get out of jail free card. Then perhaps even more humorously, they'll go on to talk about how evil the Jews are and how they need to be dealt with, as if they want to stage a holocaust themselves, which proves that these kinds of white nationalists will never, never be taken seriously and are dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot constantly.

Holocaust denial is dumb, but it's easy to understand why it exists. And it definitely should not be a crime.

[samsamsam]

I am not sure why it is a crime to deny the Holocaust occurred (freedom of speech and all that jazz), people don't go to jail for being stupid. So it is the same thing.

They do go to jail for doing stupid things.

I can see that victim mentality may be strong from this period of time, but sadly, if it wasn't this it would be something else.

I am starting to believe that some, I mean the majority of people are just addicted to being victims.

It takes a strong person to own everything in his life.

[captndonk]

(07-15-2015 05:57 PM)Onto Wrote:  

If Germany itself has developed such harsh laws around holocaust denial and enforces them strictly, that is very telling don't you think?

No, I believe nobody should be punished for expressing his views on some historical events. You may have also heared of freedom of speech.

@Teedub
I told you that I can't know the truth for sure and that I am not allowed to present any argument against the gas chambers.

There are some films on youtube, for example you can search for david cole ausschwitz or david irving. Then you can decide wheter these arguments are valid or nonsense.

Well, the revisionists say that Hoess confessed after he was tortured.
I think this is higly likely.

[Dr. Howard]

I was watching more of this story on the news tonight. He got charged as an accessory to 300,000 murders...which again is over the top. If I were his lawyer I'd ask for evidence of every single one...then he could at least die out of jail.

Last, apparently the holocaust survivors there were hoping he would just get community service....like others have said on this thread. His message would be much more effective to the kids today vs. dying in jail.

[samsamsam]

(07-15-2015 06:35 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

Last, apparently the holocaust survivors there were hoping he would just get community service....like others have said on this thread. His message would be much more effective to the kids today vs. dying in jail.

Interesting, the judge decided against the wishes of the victims?

Was it a woman judge?

[TheWastelander]

And for what it's worth, I don't think I've ever seen members here deny it happened. This isn't Stormfront. If I recall correctly, a couple pointed out that the numbers of people claimed to have been killed have changed over the years. This is true. As new findings come to light the numbers have been revised.

There have also been incidences of fraudsters making up lies to sell products, as detailed in Norman Finkelstein's book The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering

The Holocaust happened but it's considered taboo (and illegal in many European countries) for anyone to question any aspect of it, which is counterproductive because it makes people wonder if they're hiding something. It's a natural human reaction for someone to ask "why?" when someone says "you can't do this!"

[Onto]

(07-15-2015 06:34 PM)captndonk Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 05:57 PM)Onto Wrote:  

If Germany itself has developed such harsh laws around holocaust denial and enforces them strictly, that is very telling don't you think?

No, I believe nobody should be punished for expressing his views on some historical events. You may have also heared of freedom of speech.

My question wasn't addressing or promoting whether it should be a crime. It was addressing your confusion of whether you should believe the holocaust occurred.

[Teedub]

(07-15-2015 06:34 PM)captndonk Wrote:  

@Teedub
I told you that I can't know the truth for sure and that I am not allowed to present any argument against the gas chambers.

There are some films on youtube, for example you can search for david cole ausschwitz or david irving. Then you can decide wheter these arguments are valid or nonsense.

Well, the revisionists say that Hoess confessed after he was tortured.
I think this is higly likely.

David Irving has particular 'nefarious' intentions. Hoess was beaten up by British or American soldiers (I can't remember which) because he refused to admit who he was...he tried to disguise himself as a Navy officer I believe. He wasn't tortured in regards to his confession, he was proud of his 'accomplishments", if anything.

(07-15-2015 06:37 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

And for what it's worth, I don't think I've ever seen members here deny it happened. This isn't Stormfront. If I recall correctly, a couple pointed out that the numbers of people claimed to have been killed have changed over the years. This is true. As new findings come to light the numbers have been revised.

I refer of course, to Scorpion. I don't claim that the numbers might not have possibly been altered. BUT, there are millions less Jews in Europe than there was, for starters...I refer to Germans who admit to taking Jewish homes as their own once they'd been shipped out. Whether 6 million or 4 million people were put through, what admitted Nazis have admitted in court, terryifying systematic extermination is a minor point - it's a hell of a lot of people, does it matter? It's a horrible, horrible thing. You're still talking millions, MILLIONS, of people, murdered.

Roosh has banned, or temp. banned numerous members for saying Stormfront-like ideas. So, the idea that some hold those kind of ideas isn't ridiculous.