[Dan Woolf]

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/au...43703.html

[Hannibal]

AUF ENGLISH BITTE!

[Dan Woolf]

(07-15-2015 04:45 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

AUF ENGLISH BITTE!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ju...ass-murder

[Hannibal]

Quote:

Former Auschwitz guard Oskar Groening jailed over mass murder
German court sentences 94-year-old to four years in prison after finding him guilty of being accessory to murder of 300,000 people



Oskar Groening
Oskar Groening listens to the verdict of his trial in court in Lüneburg, northern Germany. Photograph: Tobias Schwarz/AFP/Getty Images
Reuters in Lüneburg
Wednesday 15 July 2015 04.07 EDT Last modified on Wednesday 15 July 2015 05.05 EDT
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A 94-year-old German who worked as a bookkeeper at the Auschwitz death camp has been convicted of being an accessory to the murder of 300,000 people and sentenced to four years in prison, in what could be one of the last big Holocaust trials.

Oskar Groening did not kill anyone himself while working at the camp in Nazi-occupied Poland during the second world war, but prosecutors argued that by sorting the bank notes taken from the trainloads of arriving Jews he helped support a regime responsible for mass murder.

White-haired Groening, who has been on trial since April, has admitted moral guilt but said it was up to the court to decide whether he was legally guilty.


Oskar Gröning trial: ‘Bookkeeper of Auschwitz’ admits moral guilt
Read more
He said this month he could only ask God to forgive him as he was not entitled to ask this of victims of the Holocaust.

The trial went to the heart of the question of whether people who were small cogs in the Nazi machinery, but did not actively participate in the killing of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust, were guilty of crimes. Until recently, the answer from the German justice system was no.

During his time at Auschwitz, Groening’s job was to collect the belongings of the deportees after they arrived at the camp by train and had been put through a selection process that resulted in many being sent directly to the gas chambers.

Groening, who was 21 and by his own admission an enthusiastic Nazi when he was sent to work at the camp in 1942, inspected people’s luggage, removing and counting any bank notes that were inside and sending them on to SS offices in Berlin, where they helped to fund the Nazi war effort.

The charges against him related to the period between May and July 1944 when 137 trains carrying roughly 425,000 Jews from Hungary arrived in Auschwitz. At least 300,000 of them were sent straight to the gas chambers, the indictment said.

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Many Germans are keen to draw a line under the Holocaust and seal the postwar democratic identity of their nation. Some find distasteful the pursuit of old men, often in poor health, for crimes committed nearly 70 years ago.

Groening, who uses a walking frame, is frail and in May the court decided to limit the time he spent in the courtroom to three hours a day in view of his health problems, which had led to delays.

In past years, prosecutors in Frankfurt decided not to pursue the case against Groening and other concentration camp workers, saying there was no causal link between their actions and the killings that occurred around them.

Prosecutors in Hanover disagreed, emboldened by the case of Ivan Demjanjuk, who in 2011 was convicted of being an accessory to mass murder despite no evidence that he had committed a specific crime while a guard at the Sobibór death camp, also in Poland. Demjanjuk died in a German care home in 2012.

Although I have no vested interest in the outcome of this trial, it is pretty fucked up that they'd lock up a 94 year old. It might as well be a death sentence, dude could hardly sit in trial longer than 3 hours.

It's also a good idea to provide some commentary, rather than make a thread and post a link.

[Paracelsus]

(07-15-2015 04:56 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

Although I have no vested interest in the outcome of this trial, it is pretty fucked up that they'd lock up a 94 year old. It might as well be a death sentence, dude could hardly sit in trial longer than 3 hours.

On the positive side, he got 70 years on bail before facing the same punishment that Eichmann et. al. did.

[Goldin Boy]

Being neither German nor Jewish, I have no vested interest in this trial. He ended up on the side that lost the war and should've expect to be punished somehow, eventually. It's just strange that they let him walk for so long.

Assuming there's no statute of limitation it's perfectly legal and like Paracelsus hinted at, he got to live the prime of live as a free man.

[Green-On-GO]

Good.. let him fucking burn...when he was in the SS at Auschwitz what mercy did a 7 year old get let alone a 94 year old man?

[Sooth]

(07-15-2015 05:59 AM)Green-On-GO Wrote:  

Good.. let him fucking burn...when he was in the SS at Auschwitz what mercy did a 7 year old get let alone a 94 year old man?

I have to agree with this.

Hes had 70 years to contemplate.

Given I was in the same situation I hope I would be wise enough to recognise the travesty in my past and accept the repercussions as a man. Justice is not dependent on time.

[UroboricForms]

I don't really see the point. The guy didn't kill anyone, he was a book keeper. In the face of all the Nazi atrocities, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that these people were just doing their jobs. Some of them believed in what they were doing. Many others very likely didn't, but what could they do in most cases?. I don't condone what he was a part of, but it seems pretty hollow to wait this long to sentence a guy who probably has less than half a decade left in him, for being indirectly responsible for war crimes.

[Cobra]

4 years is nothing for what he participated in. That he's old and unhealthy is pretty irrelevant to the case and the crime.

Taking money from victims before killing them systematically is despicable. He thought it was okay for years.

[Dantes]

(07-15-2015 06:40 AM)UroboricForms Wrote:  

I don't really see the point. The guy didn't kill anyone, he was a book keeper. In the face of all the Nazi atrocities, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that these people were just doing their jobs. Some of them believed in what they were doing. Many others very likely didn't, but what could they do in most cases?. I don't condone what he was a part of, but it seems pretty hollow to wait this long to sentence a guy who probably has less than half a decade left in him, for being indirectly responsible for war crimes.

Delete not worth my energy

[captndonk]

This trial itself is a crime. It violates the principle:

nulla poena sine lege

I he were not german nobody would prosecute him.

[Dr. Howard]

(07-15-2015 06:40 AM)UroboricForms Wrote:  

I don't really see the point. The guy didn't kill anyone, he was a book keeper. In the face of all the Nazi atrocities, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that these people were just doing their jobs. Some of them believed in what they were doing. Many others very likely didn't, but what could they do in most cases?. I don't condone what he was a part of, but it seems pretty hollow to wait this long to sentence a guy who probably has less than half a decade left in him, for being indirectly responsible for war crimes.

I agree, the guy was the fucking bookkeeper. By this standard anyone who owns IBM stock should be locked up for genocide and war crimes because IBM supplied the concentration camps with equipment and so IBM stock is now 'tainted' and so anyone that owns shares in it is criminal. Maybe anyone that drives a Volkswagen should have it confiscated and be sent to jail?

Like hot chicks falling out of the spotlight when they hit the wall, some victims and victim groups can't handle falling out of the victim spotlight when enough time has passed. These trials are an example of that, once all of the old people are dead, what next maybe we can put all of the children of the nazis on trial for their inherited nazi guilt? Can't let the holocaust fade from the spotlight!

[captndonk]

How would you guys feel if your government starts to prosecute all your former bomber pilots?

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

This sort of torturing people on their deathbeds is idiotic and will only fuel hatred towards Jews and their assorted causes. Anti-semitism as an irrational phenomenon my ass.

[Seadog]

Not really sure I agree with this or see what it accomplishes... As a 21 yo in war time Germany, what exactly are your options? Eastern front/certain death, or pass your time as a low level clerk. Moreso if you don't believe in the cause, I'm looking to keep my head down, and go to the most inauspicious post I can to see out the war.

Second, where do you draw the line? Anyone who voted for the Nazi party (they were democratically elected don't forget) or paid taxes to the gov't, and certainly anyone who served is also by the same logic responsible for these atrocities. The people at the top making decisions are all long dead and gone (good riddance), but I don't see what's accomplished by prosecuting geriatrics with increasingly tenuous connections to the nazis aside from revenge.

[General Stalin]

(07-15-2015 06:40 AM)UroboricForms Wrote:  

I don't really see the point. The guy didn't kill anyone, he was a book keeper. In the face of all the Nazi atrocities, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that these people were just doing their jobs. Some of them believed in what they were doing. Many others very likely didn't, but what could they do in most cases?. I don't condone what he was a part of, but it seems pretty hollow to wait this long to sentence a guy who probably has less than half a decade left in him, for being indirectly responsible for war crimes.

This exactly. Adult men were conscripted and forced into service and had to follow orders. German government charging a serviceman for something they commanded him to do during his service. Absurd. The decision makers who committed the war crimes should be held accountable, but they're all dead now.

[Paracelsus]

(07-15-2015 09:04 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 06:40 AM)UroboricForms Wrote:  

I don't really see the point. The guy didn't kill anyone, he was a book keeper. In the face of all the Nazi atrocities, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that these people were just doing their jobs. Some of them believed in what they were doing. Many others very likely didn't, but what could they do in most cases?. I don't condone what he was a part of, but it seems pretty hollow to wait this long to sentence a guy who probably has less than half a decade left in him, for being indirectly responsible for war crimes.

This exactly. Adult men were conscripted and forced into service and had to follow orders. German government charging a serviceman for something they commanded him to do during his service. Absurd. The decision makers who committed the war crimes should be held accountable, but they're all dead now.

Respectfully, guys, you missed this part of the article:

Quote:

Groening, who was 21 and by his own admission an enthusiastic Nazi when he was sent to work at the camp in 1942, inspected people’s luggage, removing and counting any bank notes that were inside and sending them on to SS offices in Berlin, where they helped to fund the Nazi war effort.

This is not a case of G.I. Hans being pulled into the service and sent to a place he didn't like or somewhere he wanted to quietly sit out the war. The Waffen SS ran Auschwitz, not the Wehrmacht. It's a matter of historical record that the SS did not start taking conscripts until 1943. Prior to that date, it was an all-volunteer outfit. Himmler's own communiques from 1943 indicated he didn't want a man in the SS unless he had joined freely and voluntarily.

[TheWastelander]

This man actually has testified against some of his former comrades on behalf of the state and taken on holocaust deniers by saying that he witnessed the events.

It would be one thing if this man had hurt people and was unrepentant about it. But he had no control over anything that was going on at Auschwitz and never harmed anyone there. This trial is downright disgusting.

Meanwhile tons of East German politicians, Stasi cunts and cops who committed crimes against humanity still live freely. Some are/were even politicians in German left-wing parties.

This travesty is likely being pushed by outside forces.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-de...m-1.662962

Quote:

Israeli diplomat in Berlin: Maintaining German guilt about Holocaust helps Israel

In off-the-record comment to journalists, embassy spokeswoman Adi Farjon said Israel had no interest in full normalization of relations with Germany.

A spokeswoman for the Israeli embassy in Berlin recently told Israeli journalists it was in the country’s interest to maintain German guilt about the Holocaust, and that it isn’t seeking full normalization of relations between the governments.

[The Beast1]

As a German, I find this persistent mental masturbation of the holocaust annoying. It's time for Germany to erase the memory of all of this crap.

If I was the old man I would't have showed up to this kangaroo court.

[Teedub]

As Wastelander pointed out, the only reason this guy as at a trial is because he outed himself to fight against holocaust deniers. I also don't think the fact he was an "enthusiastic Nazi" when he was 21 and had years of schooling under the Nazi regime are some kind of pointer to how "evil" he is. Plenty of us would have been "enthusiastic Nazis" had we lived under the same conditions. Also, there is evidence that he requested a transfer to the Russian front line because he was so disturbed by the events at Auschwitz. It was turned down.

He's admitted moral guilt for the holocaust, but he's done good by using his eye-witness evidence to educate others. I think giving him a jail sentence at that age is silly - better to have him talk in schools or something.

[General Stalin]

(07-15-2015 09:22 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 09:04 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 06:40 AM)UroboricForms Wrote:  

I don't really see the point. The guy didn't kill anyone, he was a book keeper. In the face of all the Nazi atrocities, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that these people were just doing their jobs. Some of them believed in what they were doing. Many others very likely didn't, but what could they do in most cases?. I don't condone what he was a part of, but it seems pretty hollow to wait this long to sentence a guy who probably has less than half a decade left in him, for being indirectly responsible for war crimes.

This exactly. Adult men were conscripted and forced into service and had to follow orders. German government charging a serviceman for something they commanded him to do during his service. Absurd. The decision makers who committed the war crimes should be held accountable, but they're all dead now.

Respectfully, guys, you missed this part of the article:

Quote:

Groening, who was 21 and by his own admission an enthusiastic Nazi when he was sent to work at the camp in 1942, inspected people’s luggage, removing and counting any bank notes that were inside and sending them on to SS offices in Berlin, where they helped to fund the Nazi war effort.

This is not a case of G.I. Hans being pulled into the service and sent to a place he didn't like or somewhere he wanted to quietly sit out the war. The Waffen SS ran Auschwitz, not the Wehrmacht. It's a matter of historical record that the SS did not start taking conscripts until 1943. Prior to that date, it was an all-volunteer outfit. Himmler's own communiques from 1943 indicated he didn't want a man in the SS unless he had joined freely and voluntarily.

Nothing wrong with being excited to serve your military and country. Whether he was drafted or volunteer recruit its not exactly like he was a mover and shaker in the systematic genocide. My point is still that his own country is punishing him for shit that his country ordered him to do when he served.

[Foolsgo1d]

Be careful of declaring this man as an enthusiastic Nazi. Many Germans did not fully understand their errors until it was staring them in the face and even then it was too horrible to contemplate.

The few psychos will always lead the majority astray and keep them under fear.

I shook my head when people demanded an explanation as to why he didn't try and stop it or do something. What the fuck could one man do against such a machine? Not everyone could be a Schindler.

[extracube]

Is it just me or are a lot od RVF forum members getting all social justicy?

[Dr. Howard]

(07-15-2015 12:32 PM)extracube Wrote:  

Is it just me or are a lot od RVF forum members getting all social justicy?

Could you expand on that some more, especially in the context of this thread?