[LatinoHeat]

Hey guys,

I'm having a great time here in JKT. Setting up lots of dates, tons of fun. I'm having great success with Tinder too.

I wanted to ask you guys. Do you guys know of good places to take girls for a nice intimidate time near Thamrin / Plaza Indo that isn't going to break the bank?????

This is starting to remind me of Bangkok where every date wants you to take them to a rooftop bar where there is a $30US entrance ($60 for 2) and then another $10-$20 drinks, so if you go on a date every night for 2 weeks you are talking about thousands of dollars I mean i'm doing pretty well for myself, I can afford it, but i'd rather find some good alternatives for taking girls out and save my money for when I got out hunting on my own.

Also some initial thoughts.

• I think immigrant is WAYYY played out. Friday night I took a cool Tinder chick there and tons of girls were giving me IOI like crazy. But then I went there on Saturday night, was packed to the BRIM with good looking european guys and when I saw some pretty nasty fat indo girls with good looking tall scandanvian dudes I knew my luck was out. as the night went on by 3am it basically felt like some american nightclub where girls were just giving me tons of attitude. I think it really depends on the night, I would say to get there early, even though some guys say arrive late. FYI not being salty, this is objective. I actually pulled a girl there Saturday night anyways, but she was a 5 at best, 6 body 4 face. I think one is better off in a place with less bules/gringos, especially if you're asian or short.
• White god factor seems to me more like "tall god factor" because as 5 foot 5 guy girls have been relatively receptive but not really any super special treatment here at nightclubs. I think if you are tall and/or blond you are a god here, but if you are short and/or asian you can do well but getting anything above a 6 will take some work. Nightclubs suck if you're short, and Jakarta is no exception. Its not suprising really, I mean I look close enough to a local that when i'm wearning sunglasses during the day I get mistaken for indo.
• Its very clear there are tons of other dudes in Thamrin here on "business" but really not (lol thanks RVF), I think wtihin 1-2 years it won't be so easy here. Come here and enjoy the pussy buffet while you still can before it turns into bangkok #2.
• Speaking of Bangkok, Jakarta is still hot but WAYYYYYY less humid then Bangkok, esp at night, its quite tolerable and comfortable.
• TINDER IS YOUR FRIEND. I am really good with Tinder and crafting my profile to make me look way more baller, ripped and cooler than I actually am. I would say I match with pretty much every single girl I swipe on. Not suprsing considering my last few pics on instagram are of my ripped abs and flying first class lol. I pipelined beforehand and had about 50 whatsapp numbers to start with. Its true the quality is a little lower but you can just put a 1-10 rating on each girls whatsapp by their name and cull it down. For example I went out last night with Chinese Indo chick who was a solid 7 met her on tinder (she was bitchy, nothing really happened). There are plenty of babes on tinder, I have some dates setup this week with some 6-7s.
• Its very clear when you say "thamrin residences" its a massive DHV. Every chick asks you where you stay and when you say Thamrin it makes their pussy wet. By the way this place is awesome, they have a huge infinity pool, a grocery store in the buildling that delivers to your door, a excellent gym with freeweights up to 55lbs and smith machine.
• Gojek is pretty much the coolest app ever, you can have literally anything delivered to your apartment
• uBer moto is retarded cheap, like $0.10 - $0.30 per ride, but the drivers are stupid AF.
• The internet in Jakarta, just like the rest of Indo sucks balls. I had to pay $100US to "upgrade" to 3mbps but I really just get 1-2mbps. It particularly sucks in Thamrin since there are so many people sharing internet in this massive buildling.
  

Anyways, thanks for all the great info on this thread again, and the advice you guys gave me to stay in Thamrin, i just wanted to say I really appreciate it. I am taking notes and will write up a full updated report to add to this thread when I leave in a few weeks, but so far i'm loving it here!

[worldtraveler3]

Haha another thamrin guy. The apartments are pretty average and small but the location and amenities are great

[nabz]

Hi All,

Warning- Long unorganized post. First time submitting a detailed post/review on a forum so kindly bear with it.

About myself- Born and brought up in UAE. Mixed genes- Arab/Indian

I am in my mid 20’s born with a silver spoon as my family has a 30 year old well established business of travel and tourism, I have made most use of this and travelled quite a bit.

Nightlife is my main area of interest and I’m the type of guy that prefers to shell out extra few $$ and go for the table/bottle service.

Summary- 2 Bangs- 1 from Tinder 1 at the Bar. 2Night 3 day trip.

Accommodation- Grove Suites paid 120$ per night for a 1 bedroom Suite.

Just got back from Jakarta after a 2Night 3 day trip. I had read so much on this forum and was fully prepared to put my game into play, but since I was stuck with one of my business associate things didn’t go as planned. Another reason is I had travelled during the weekday. However I managed to enjoy enough to plan a trip again in DEC.

First day- So to break things down landed on a Monday afternoon got done with my meetings and headed to BATS where there was a live band playing. We planned to have a few drinks to begin the night with. This didn’t happen and my colleague disappeared with a working girl after an hour or so leaving me alone.

While I was alone I was approached by a few working girls and had some small chit chat with them, they don’t bother you much and are aren’t too clingy.
Meanwhile I was enjoying the live band and found one of the singer hot. I would probably give her an 8 with her make up on. I scribbled a song request on a piece of paper and handed it to her. Second song request I wrote my number down and inserted a cheesy line saying here’s my number so call me maybe. She politely declined the request.

I left BATS and was on my way to the hotel feeling a bit low as I was ditched by my colleague, couldn’t find any club to party and didn’t score a girl for the night. However I received a call when I was in the taxi and it was the singer from the Band. She asked me to hand over the phone to the cab guy and within 15-20 mins I was dropped at a bar called Camden. Crowd is generally of late teens who are pretty much drunk to the core with RNB and HIP HOP playing. I can’t remember the prices of drinks much as I was drunk and confused regarding the currency most of the time. It was crowded for a Monday night.

Eventually managed to get her back to the hotel room and rest all is history. I must say it was difficult to kick her out and she was starting to make plans for the entire day with me.

Second day- Busy in the morning with my office meetings. Met with a chick later in the afternoon from tinder who was a indo- Chinese mix, don’t know how and why but managed to end up in a bus ride with her to Kota Tua. By the time I got back it was late evening and I couldn’t get her back to my hotel as my colleague was busy with someone else. So I told her let’s wait for a while but she couldn’t as it was getting late. So that ended there.

Headed to Classic with my colleague later on. Went to the club at the 4th floor and was amazed by the size of the venue. It was huge with bar tables laid out everywhere. Around 8-10 dancers were dancing at the stage and eventually stripped which I didn’t expect to happen. Lap dances for a short time were at a charge of 110k if I’m not mistaken. The place was filled with working girls which was not really my kind of place. We called it a night, no bang on the second day.

Third Day- Flight at 1:00pm was busy packing when I received a text from the tinder chick I went to kota tua with. She asked me if my place was empty and that she is nearby as her office was close to my hotel. Kicked out my colleague for a while and managed to find just enough time to have a quickie. This chick knew what she was doing and was a totally different person in bed. Apparently she is a dance instructor and gives dance lessons in the evening. No wonder she was great in bed.

So to conclude it was a really short stay and I couldn’t go to any of the nightclubs that have been mentioned here by you guys. I will be visiting again in DEC and it will be for a longer stay this time.

Hoping to meet fellow forum members next time around and pop some bottles Cheers 

[LatinoHeat]

2016 update - 16 days in Jakarta / Thamrin

Total Bangs = 5, 4 from tinder, 1 from nightgame. 2 of them I banged a few times (got lazy haha)

Honorable mention: Also one blowjob from a girl who came over from my crib straight from tinder and claimed she was a virgin

About me Very short latino, long hair, in extremely good shape, pretty good style. OK nightgame, did pretty much no daygame.

The Girls

I would say about 85% of girls in Jakarta do not pass the boner test, but your status is so high you can get the top 15% very easy anyways, but even the top 15% is mostly 5s and 6s, the occasional 7. I saw very few girls I would consider 8-10 like I do in Brazil or Colombia.

The girls that are smokin hot and have great bodies definetely know it and are not easy to bang at all.

Most of the girls I banged were 5s and 6s but I managed to bang a 7 by the time I left.

I noticed something about Jakarta, the 4s -6s are thirsty AF, but there is something there called the "7 barrier" where gaming the very top girls is much much harder then the average end chicks. I mean I know your thinking yeah duh, its like that everywhere, but its especially pronounced in Jakarta.

I even ran a little experiment on my phone where I whatsapped 5 girls that i had marked as "5" on my phone and 5 girls I had marked as "7" every single girl marked as 5 got back to me within literally seconds. Out of the 5 "7s" i messaged, 3 didn't even get back to me, 1 got back to me much later but very icy, and another got back to me days later ....

Really though if you stayed for a few months you could start working your way up to the very very top chicks. After just 2 weeks I was already breaking my way in to the hotter girls. But yeah, when you land just bang one or two 5s it will be the easiest lays of your life.

Current clubs/lounge situation - 2016:

• Colloseum is great. Its the new hotspot
• Equinox X2 - HOLY SHIT, come here on the weekends (arrive early) girls will be literally grabbing you left and right, I've never seen anything like it. And keep in mind i'm a short latino brown eyes brown hair.
• Immigrant - Super played out IMO, packed with foreigners. If you get here early you get lots of attention, but if your here late there just too many foreigners and the girls get picky and salty. I still went here a lot because it was still a good place to take a date and to pull, and it was right next to Thamrin.
• Skye Lounge - My favorite place to just kick it, kind of pricy, not the best place to pickup, if you bring a date here and spend a little cheese on her she will be super impressed.
• Cloud - The most expensive lounge in Jakarta, save this one for the 7s. Expect to pay maybe $70 for a few drinks for a date but when they see the ibll for like $1.2million they will start grabbing your dick on the spot.
• Domain - Small club with Indo chinese right near X2 equinox. I realized the chinese girls put up a front like they are more picky but if you just go up the dancefloor and grab them and treat them like the darker skinned girls you realize its all front pretty quick.
• Dragonfly - Did not have a chance to checkout
  
  

Where to stay long term - Thamrin is your best bet, just keep in mind the internet sucks in the building. I'm pretty sure every chick I boned has boned at least 100 other foreigners in Thamrin. I've never seen so many well dressed foreign dudes "on buiness" But srsly, Thamrin is a major DHV for these chicks cause I think its one of the most expensive places to stay in the city. I would avoid staying in a hotel cause you want the girls to think your'e staying long term.

Side trips I took!

Side trip #1 Bandung / Lembang - 3 hour train ride from Jakarta. Lots of girls here will tell you this place is amazing, really Bandung is just a smaller shittier version of Jakarta. I almost chocked on my Batagor (delicious indonesian snack) when some chick told me its the "Paris of Java" there is nothing paris about this city.

The city is also famous for food, there are some really delicious dutch bakeries here to checkout, but not worth the trip alone.

Also you will here that there are lots of "factory outlets" this is bullshit its all a bunch of super ultra low quality knockoffs, but if you want a $3 gucci shirt, Bandung has that for you. But don't be fooled by the marketing on wikitravel or wikivoyage that gives you this whole shpiel about how the authentic clothes are so cheap because they didn't make the cut for the mall bla bla bla, its all crappy knockoff shit. Have some respect for yourself and pickup a few nice clothes in Grand Indonesia.

The city does have suprisingly good nightlife. I met some Tinder date there, she was boring, ditched her, met another tinder date, banged her. Check out some club called Sobbers. THere were some working girls there but they were the best looking i've seen in Indo.

Lembang is a nice district just north of Bandung that has a cool Volcano to checkout, and some little "floating market" I'm sure from someone from shitty ass Jakarta this little town is nice because its above the smog, nice and cool and has these cool green things called "trees" that local Jakartians have never seen before lol. Overall for you as an intrepid traveler, its not worth the trip.

overall rating: Cool to bring a chick, not worth it to go on your own.

Side trip #2 Malang / Mt Bromo - So this is the most extreme shit I ever did in my life. I wanted to check out the most famous volcano in Java, but didn't wanbt to take public transport, and sure as hell didn't want to get stuck in a tourbus with a bunch of Chiense tourists. So I took an automatic 150cc bike up from Malang to Mt Bromo, the road was pretty good, but then I ended up in this crazy area called "The sea of sand" my bike kept skidding like crazy and I Barely made it to town before sunset, thanks to the help of a German backpacker who looked like Tom Hanks in Castaway, was scary AF, barely survived, was worth the views.

Malang itself, nothing to see.

Overall rating: Take the motorbike up from Malang to Mt Bromo and see if you survive.

Side trip #3 Yogyakarta (aka Jogja or Jogakarta - Holy shit I was matching up with the finest girls on Tinder but I only had 1 full day here. I checked out some nearby temples on a nearby motorbike, was cool, but bla temples whatever, just driving the moped around the countryside was more fun.

From everywhere I could see this town has the hottest girls in Java and they seemed thirsty AF too and way more provincial then Jakarta girls but eager to try their first taste of foreigner D. This place seems like it has lots of potential. The town is relatively nice too by Java standards (i.e. not that nice but tolerable compared to JKT).

Overall rating: Try Jogja for a few days or week or two see where you get. The city has tons of cool touristy shit nearby too and in town. I did not have a chance to checkout, I really regret that. Jogja has potential.

I managed to get a first class flight from yogja back to JKT local smaller airport for only $50, was really cool, you go into the airport lounge and in the lounge is a seperate security where they whisk you straight ot the plane in a private car, that was kind of fun!

if you wanted to backpack it up, you could start in Jakarta and go by train Jakarta --> Bandung/Lembang --> Yogyakarta --> Malang / Bromo --> Bali.

Cities I did not check out: Semarang and Surabaya [sic?] - Will have to check them out next time.

Overall I really like Indonesian girls, their accent isn't piercing like Thai girls, they speak good English, they are fun, they are small size which is perfect for me cause i'm small, and I don't mean to get all cheesy, but they really do have pretty nice personalities. I'm not sure how they stack up compared to Philipina girls.

Jakarta, specifically the area around Grand Indonesia has everything you need. Nightclubs, fantastic coffee shops, restaurants, everything is all within walking distance and Indonesia is by many leaps and bounds the cheapest country i've ever been to in my life and I've been to a lot of countries.

+1 For Indoensia and For Jakarta. Go checkout Bali too! You can't go wrong with Indo.



Value bomb Favorite Tinder pickup line "I'm just hanging in GI (short Grand Indonesia), I just can't believe how cheap everything is here! <-- This will totally mindfuck them because Grand Indonesia is actually expensive AF even for foreigners, this sends the hamster wheel into super overdrive nitrous mode.

[worldtraveler3]

I think the barrier thing is mainly because you are using tinder and night game at certain spots.
There are better but you gotta stay abit longer and k ow your way around.

[Hallasan]

I will be in Jakarta November 1st (probably for the entire month)!

Thanks to all the guys on this thread and others (Booshala, etc) for the great intel. Excited to head down there, this will be my 2nd time in SEA. Hopefully it isn't overrun with ya'll fuckers , like Thailand and the Phils. Who am I to say such things:

thread-24855.html

PM if you're down to meet. Leaning towards banging focus but I'm open-minded to cultural stuff as well.

[aeroektar]

How's Indonesia during the rainy season? Is it still worth going or are you stuck inside all day? I've got a window of time I can take off between Jan-Feb but that's the worst time to go from what I've read. I want to hit up Jakarta, Surabaya and Yogyakarta, bang lots of chicks and climb a couple volcanos.

[skr1107]

I think I didn't have to pay that fee at all. Was following wikitravel but it seems to be outdates.

[nabz]

Helloo,

Just came back from my second trip to Jakarta. Before I start with my post would like to thank Irish for a great night out and constant updates regarding nightlife in Jakarta. This man surely knows how to roll in Jakarta.

Basque- Posh and trendy bar/restaurant which turns into a semi nightclub post 10-11pm. Went there on Friday night and managed to pull a chick who later took us to dragonfly. Decent competition there though with a lot of guys looking to do the same thing. Would be advisable to head there early and pull chicks before it gets too late.

Dragonfly-Went there with a chick whom I managed to chat up with at Basque. Place is really huge with great interiors. There is a non existent dance floor and is mainly catering to the table reservation kind of party goers hence would not suggest this place if you are planning to score a chick for the night. Managed to book a table at a discounted rate as the lady I was with seemed to be a regular there. She called a few friends who later joined us and I managed to bang one of her friends that night. The basque chick wasn't happy about this and let me know the next day by sending a text saying "you don't respect me, I came to the party with you and you sleep with my friend"

Domain- Went there on a Friday night which happens to be hip hop & RNB. Music is too loud to hold a conversation, majority of the crowd seemed to be indo chineese. People seem to know each other here and don't seem to be much receptive to conversations.The place got full between 1-2 my friend managed to hook up with a chick and disappeared. Wasn't feeling well and was down with a flu so I headed home early too. No bang this night.

Immigrant-Was lucky enough to meet Irish on a Saturday and this was hands down one of my best nights in Jakarta. Everyone seems to know Irish and he surely has got the place on lock down. He managed to book a table at immigrant and we had a few drinks at Basque before we headed to immigrant. We were 2-3 guys along with 7-8 girls at the table, partied it up true VVIP style. Didn't venture out towards the dance floor much but there seemed to be a lot of expats at the bar side. So if you are looking for exclusive bule status then immigrant is not the place to be, especially on a Saturday night.

Once again thanks everyone for all the info and data on this thread !

[LATAMnomad]

(08-29-2016 01:01 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

Haha another thamrin guy. The apartments are pretty average and small but the location and amenities are great

What is the lowest monthly rate you think can be gotten there?

[Jack Of All Trades]

are the prices comparable to bangkok?

[CleanSlate]

Yes, except drinks are more expensive.

[Irish]

(01-11-2017 12:24 PM)nabz Wrote:  

Helloo,

Just came back from my second trip to Jakarta. Before I start with my post would like to thank Irish for a great night out and constant updates regarding nightlife in Jakarta. This man surely knows how to roll in Jakarta.

Basque- Posh and trendy bar/restaurant which turns into a semi nightclub post 10-11pm. Went there on Friday night and managed to pull a chick who later took us to dragonfly. Decent competition there though with a lot of guys looking to do the same thing. Would be advisable to head there early and pull chicks before it gets too late.

Dragonfly-Went there with a chick whom I managed to chat up with at Basque. Place is really huge with great interiors. There is a non existent dance floor and is mainly catering to the table reservation kind of party goers hence would not suggest this place if you are planning to score a chick for the night. Managed to book a table at a discounted rate as the lady I was with seemed to be a regular there. She called a few friends who later joined us and I managed to bang one of her friends that night. The basque chick wasn't happy about this and let me know the next day by sending a text saying "you don't respect me, I came to the party with you and you sleep with my friend"

Domain- Went there on a Friday night which happens to be hip hop & RNB. Music is too loud to hold a conversation, majority of the crowd seemed to be indo chineese. People seem to know each other here and don't seem to be much receptive to conversations.The place got full between 1-2 my friend managed to hook up with a chick and disappeared. Wasn't feeling well and was down with a flu so I headed home early too. No bang this night.

Immigrant-Was lucky enough to meet Irish on a Saturday and this was hands down one of my best nights in Jakarta. Everyone seems to know Irish and he surely has got the place on lock down. He managed to book a table at immigrant and we had a few drinks at Basque before we headed to immigrant. We were 2-3 guys along with 7-8 girls at the table, partied it up true VVIP style. Didn't venture out towards the dance floor much but there seemed to be a lot of expats at the bar side. So if you are looking for exclusive bule status then immigrant is not the place to be, especially on a Saturday night.

Once again thanks everyone for all the info and data on this thread !

Good to meet you too mate. Welcome back any time

[Danai]

Hey guys is the Korean god factor big here at all like it is in BKK? Are there many Koreans and other Asians traveling and partying here?

[wolfpack]

(01-13-2017 08:16 PM)Danai Wrote:  

Hey guys is the Korean god factor big here at all like it is in BKK? Are there many Koreans and other Asians traveling and partying here?

Well as you know the K-pop/K-drama storm is still going strong in SEA..even in JKT i met a chick who had ex/korean b/f and knew bit of hangul and was insta lay. So yeah not all JKT women are into "WGF" and club "BLOW FISH" would be one of your best bet (but irishman can confirm this one for me) but when i went there in the weekend, there are many CHINO-INDO girls, Mainlander Chinos, Taiwanese, Jappos and yes korean expats (k-corporation branch wokers) Frenquent very often (that was last year info)

Also although Thamrin in my opinion is just over rated (I stayed at Tamansari <---the "center location" area that you can travel to indo plaza and pondah indak mall (?) within 6~12 <---depends on traffic)

[Danai]

Is there a ladyboy culture in Indonesia like Thailand and the Phillipines? Just want to make sure if I have to be on my guard if I go there haha.

[whiteknightrises]

(01-13-2017 08:16 PM)Danai Wrote:  

Hey guys is the Korean god factor big here at all like it is in BKK? Are there many Koreans and other Asians traveling and partying here?

Nowhere is as big as BKK. Some Koreans here and there

Stay away from the clubs that RVF members frequent (Immigrant, etc). These are meant for white dudes. You can still get some there (and I have) but it's clear once you step in who the targeted demographic is. The one time I went to Blowfish it was dead but try your luck there. Reputation seems to be more Chinese-Indonesian - did not see as many of these with whites as I did the darker native types, might be more insular.

K-pop/K-drama is as big in JKT as anywhere else in SE Asia but I got the impression those types don't hit the club that much (perhaps they are more lower/middle class). Met a couple off Tinder that I can remember

(01-24-2017 07:43 AM)Danai Wrote:  

Is there a ladyboy culture in Indonesia like Thailand and the Phillipines? Just want to make sure if I have to be on my guard if I go there haha.

Nowhere near as many as BKK

[Transsimian]

(01-24-2017 07:43 AM)Danai Wrote:  

Is there a ladyboy culture in Indonesia like Thailand and the Phillipines? Just want to make sure if I have to be on my guard if I go there haha.

Come to think of it, I'm worried they might dress more islamicly and demurely than the real women.

I hope I am wrong.

[Monxp]

Hey guys!

I'm here in Jakarta for the end of next month, if anyone is interested to meet feel free to PM me. See you soon.

[Svara]

People who come over just for 3 weeks and "getting a flag" are ruining it. That stuff has become public knowledge and women are now more weary of it. Some directly asked me "are you a sex tourist?"... They even have Facebook groups where they make fun of the sex tourists.

Every other day in Jakarta I see some obvious PUA in wingman teams patrolling the malls, wearing "loafers" or some other stereotypical ridiculous PUA outfits and trying always the same techniques on the women... That stuff is really getting old.

The future of PUA is rather to settle and focus on few given places of your choice (rather than running around like a headless chicken just to get "flags", which does not make any sense, practically) and doing all of it in a very discrete, underground way, and do our best to offer "plausible denial". That is how I see the evolution of this movement. The conventional way of "hitting the nightclubs" is yielding less and less results.

[KYT88]

(02-03-2017 01:31 AM)Svara Wrote:  

Every other day in Jakarta I see some obvious PUA in wingman teams patrolling the malls, wearing "loafers" or some other stereotypical ridiculous PUA outfits and trying always the same techniques on the women... That stuff is really getting old.

Curious exactly where you are seeing this, I haven't noticed this once.

[jojolapin]

OMG Svara do you have any link to these FB groups?

[RagnarLothbrok]

(02-03-2017 01:31 AM)Svara Wrote:  

People who come over just for 3 weeks and "getting a flag" are ruining it. That stuff has become public knowledge and women are now more weary of it. Some directly asked me "are you a sex tourist?"... They even have Facebook groups where they make fun of the sex tourists.

When I was in Jakarta with my buddy last December, we were completely honest with all of the women we met there and it seemed as if most of them didn't even care that we are just there to fuck girls. We didn't even bother making up a backstory and every girl knows what's going on when two western dudes are staying in a nice apartment in Central Jakarta for "vacation". There were times when women we had just fucked met our next dates in the lobby of our residence on their way out. This was mostly Online Game though, so you would expect that those girls don't care but also the girls we pulled from the clubs didn't care. In my opinion Jakarta is still at a point where being a good looking foreigner is so exclusive that they don't care if you live there permanently or not.

Are we ruining Jakarta this way? Maybe, but I don't think so. For every sextourist in Jakarte there are at least 2 Tinder sluts who don't care. If those sextourists all did Daygame, they might ruin it, but I am not sure if doing Daygame is as common in Jakarta as you depicted it in your post. Your description would fit Bangkok much more than Jakarta.

[Freddy_1]

Totally agree RL..Svara you are living in Jakarta, you should have a HUGE advantage over "sex tourists"...Girls have choices who they want to fuck..if they are choosing these "sex tourists" over you then you are the problem and not them.

[Irish]

Most lads on their jakarta sex tours only know how to swipe tinder. They can fuck all the C-grade used up gash on there all they want, I couldn't give two shits.