[Travesty]

Guys especially intermediates often think it is not a big waste of time.

It really is especially online, texting, etc... playing the timing games, planning dates they flake on etc...

Time is better spent upping your value so you get more Yes girls off the bat. It also leads to being pickier and having a better life balance.

Of course if a guy still has AA or is not good at reading girls likely to respond etc... this advice will be beyond him.

It is no coincidence as players become more advanced they often approach less and get better results and it is not the avoidance weasel. It is being realistic and having wisdom that affects your instincts.

[Euphoric_Breeze]

(08-28-2014 05:30 PM)nek Wrote:  

Having humility when it comes to chicks save you alot of time and grief.

sorry bro , but in my world I don't really use humility and modesty toward chicks . Unless they're homeless or beggars I could show some compassion.I'm not saying I'm arrogant , but I just stay somewhere between .

[Donkey_Riding]

(08-28-2014 05:30 PM)nek Wrote:  

I think it's an issue of ego that creates this situation. If you have to 'win' everytime, you'll burn out. You have to learn to deal with loss. Hell, even Michael Jordan lost games. He didn't like it, but he could deal with it and push on.

A better frame to have is one that views rejection as a success rather than a loss. You have to remember that you can't control the outcome, only your actions. Your goal in approaching is, as Mark Manson says, to "polarize" the girl: that is, to force her to make a decision as to whether she wants to proceed toward sex with you. Whether you get a rejection or a green light, your approach has been successful.

[nek]

(08-28-2014 06:53 PM)Euphoric_Breeze Wrote:  

(08-28-2014 05:30 PM)nek Wrote:  

Having humility when it comes to chicks save you alot of time and grief.

sorry bro , but in my world I don't really use humility and modesty toward chicks . Unless they're homeless or beggars I could show some compassion.I'm not saying I'm arrogant , but I just stay somewhere between .

Wasn't talkin about towards chicks, talkin about with yourself.

[brofists]

(08-28-2014 11:41 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

@OnlyMarry You are welcome to play the odds and busting down resistance. But in my, experience, the average guy out there does not have anywhere close to the DESIRE that Roosh has to score flags and get laid and that includes me. For me, it's all about ROI: return on investment. I want to invest the least amount of time and energy for the best possible results. That means managing and minimizing risk effectively. The same as in the stock market. Picking up women is not my job but unfortunately it's a necessary evil.

He is saying you might be cutting your losses out too early, and he may be right, or he may be wrong. No one will ever know, this is the Schrödinger's pussy phenomenon.

What if next time this similar thing happen. To know for sure if the girl is dropping the black meat hint as a way to tell you she's not interested, or just as a conversation filler, we can try to ask her "well, keeping a healthy diet is always recommended by every doctor" and see what her response is.

I get what both of you are saying, and I absolutely agree to a certain extent, I do see that cutting out an entire investment too early because of one ambiguous remark may be a little bit too risk averse.

[Nomad77]

Here is another way I think of it: if I am going to fail I want to fail earlier rather than later. The longer I take to fail is the more time and energy I would have invested in the girl. So I push the girl to fail me faster rather than later when it comes to detecting attraction. Once I detect a girl is attracted enough I back off and run standard game. My years of experience has honed my skill at detecting attraction to a fine point. I don't just make a decision on one remark or action. The decision is made by evaluating multiple data points.

[magellan]

Nomad, great post! Much needed reminder for my own game. It's interesting how pervasive the belief is that game is more about negotiated desire rather than facilitation. I know after reading The Game in high school several years ago my thoughts on game were all about persuasion. The deeper I've gotten into the red pill and understanding the way things really are, the more I see things the way you've been describing in your posts.

This lesson is also applicable to business pursuits. I've heard multiple times now to pursue businesses where you have an "unfair advantage" rather than trying to kick down brick walls. E.g. A college kid with programming skills starting a social network for college students versus the same kid trying to start a cable network. It's something of which I keep reminding myself.

[Nomad77]

Yes, it's not about working hard. It's about working smart and stacking the odds in your favor. Same principles applies to business, poker, and all aspects of life. Game is nothing more than marketing: learning how to present and sell yourself to your most appreciative target market.

[rudebwoy]

Great post and I totally agree.

I don't see the point of pushing it with girls, if she isn't a 100 percent yes then your wasting your time. Chances are there is another guy she has a keen interest in and you are entertainment.

I would like to say DHV matters, well I know it does. Things seem so screwed up nowadays that I see chumps with decent girls, albeit the girls wear the pants.

[polar]

I just came from a date that broke me out of thinking that my main girl was a special snowflake - the date was a similar body type, similar career, similar personality, and similar enough in looks that they could be confused for sisters...rather uncanny.

It seems like the more feminine a girl is, the less active game she needs to pummel her from trying to wear the pants into being submissive (metaphorically speaking). "Yes" girls will act more feminine than "maybe" girls, who are more feminine than "no" girls. "No" girls also tend to be the more dominant ones. Makes sense - why roll a boulder uphill with DC-grade lawyer cunts vs. developing high enough value and screening to attract a "yes" girl?

[Nomad77]

@rudebwoy Thanks. Girls are selecting Beta guys for relationships and Alpha guys for fun/sex. In this manner they are behaving exactly the way men do. We don't marry the slut do we

It's difficult enough when a girl is a Maybe girl. You don't want to make it any harder by chasing a NO girl and I've chased my share of NO girls.

[Nomad77]

@polar The more masculine you are the more feminine the girl will become regardless of how feminine she is already. If you want a girl to act like a girl you have to act like a man 100% of the time.

[nek]

You know how they say " a girl knows if she'll fuck you in the first 30 seconds"? Well it's the opposite, she knows if she won't fuck you in the first 30 seconds. After that, she's open to varying degrees, and that's where 'game' comes into play.

[kinjutsu]

I like this topic a lot.

I like Nomad77's take on this.
I think this is an intermediate/advanced skill level practice. When you start out you spam approach and focus on getting as much experience as possible.
The focus of getting as much experience as possible is to know how to f close. Messing up escalations etc. The unintended by product is learning right off the bat if the girl is feeling you.
I've had girls approach me openly flirt and then when i engaged them they withdrew. This is basic game playing by girls. In the past i would've pursued her hard and pushed for the meeting asap thinking that the "attraction" was fading. Now i realize there wasn't any attraction to lose since i didn't go out of my way to generate it. Secondly i as soon as she pulls back i ghost. No communication, whether this happens in the same venue or over text/fb/im.

A few of my friends say i'm leaving money on the table doing this with girls. I say my sanity is worth more than average sex with a cute girl.
I'm willing to wait till date 3 or 4 to get the notch because maybe i'm looking for a short term relationship with a quality girl.
You self-select yourself

How much time/energy are you willing to expend on a "maybe girl"?
12 hours and $60 bucks in gas?
Leaving work early to meet her and dealing with your angry boss the next day?


Also you must keep in mind your expectations you have for the girl.
Is this girl a more traditional girl who doesn't have much experience with men in general?
Is this girl a club slut who's there at least once a week looking to fuck another random guy?

How many guys would wait an extra date or two for a guaranteed notch?





You can easily go from a "Yes" girl to a "maybe/no" girl if you escalate too quickly when you first meet her.
I've personally made this mistake because i got overconfident.

I met a tall curvy girl with extremely red hair. Very sexy. We met up and had walk downtown on a nice day. She was dressed nicely, slightly conservative.
We sat on a bench and i kiss her and she accepts and kisses me back.
From all observations this girl is a "Yes" girl.
So i try what had worked for me previously and attempted to physically escalate in a fitting room.
Total unmitigated disaster. She got visibly creeped out and left the fitting room.
I tried to recover but the damage was done.
She stopped responding to my texts after that day. She's a "No" girl now.


Not 2 weeks prior i met a different girl who i figured was a "No" girl and just decided to do my own thing and ditch her at the mall.
I went to try on some clothes and she still tagged along. I ended up pulling her inside the fitting room and fucked her there.
This girl became an fb for a few months.

[polar]

(08-29-2014 08:17 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  

A few of my friends say i'm leaving money on the table doing this with girls. I say my sanity is worth more than average sex with a cute girl.
I'm willing to wait till date 3 or 4 to get the notch because maybe i'm looking for a short term relationship with a quality girl.
You self-select yourself

How many guys would wait an extra date or two for a guaranteed notch?

You can easily go from a "Yes" girl to a "maybe/no" girl if you escalate too quickly when you first meet her.
I've personally made this mistake because i got overconfident.

How do you calibrate if the better call is to try to push through LMR or just call it a night and reschedule?

I've had not escalating cost me second dates and potential bangs before, and I've had to do damage control when I escalated after being pinned for "make him wait" boyfriend material.

Earlier this week, I pulled the "can I use your bathroom" gambit after a date and then tried to burn through the LMR...got her hot and bothered but still got sent home for the night. The girl backed out of plans for tonight. I'm not worried about losing her, just noticing a trend.

[Dalaran1991]

This topic is gold.

It reminds me of a constant debate that I keep having in my mind: did I bomb on a girl bc I moved things toward too fast, while I could have gotten her by putting in more effort?

Ya know the scenario: you see girl you like, start gaming and spitting your best, logistics isnt horrible either. However she is not responding and throwing shit like "Im not that kind of girl" (vomit), "we dont know which other enough" etc. You back down one step but then keep escalating. Then the girl leaves.

Then you think to yourself: Did I go too fast? Maybe I could have gotten her by investing more time and effort and taking things slow?

Hell fucking no.

Difficult women remain difficult. The delusion that she will give in over time is almost like the beta delusion of "if I am nice she will sleep with me"

Even say she sleeps with you after 3 months of woeing. K you got the bang, but how much shit did you go through? Is it worth it?

No fucking point in investing in a NO girl. Unless she is really really hot and you are desperate for this specific bang, but that screaming oneitis right there.

This is where game differs to investment. In investment often high reward = high risk, and you need a lot of time before you see the returns but when the returns come its the jack pot. In gaming girl in the end its just one more pussy, might be better might be worse than others but never worth the tremendous effort.

[Windom Earle]

I had what I thought was a yes girl, turn into a no girl, then back to a yes girl. Weirdest situation I've experienced yet. You can read about it on this thread.

Basically, I scared the cat big time by trying to escalate when getting her back to my house on the first date (she has a boyfriend too by the way). She was visibly frightened and unresponsive, and I was happy to write her off from that point.

The thing is, she kept texting me, so I eventually got her out again on another date, and back to my place, and got the bang...but the bang required me to take things to a level of physicality that most men wouldn't be comfortable with, myself being no exception. It invariably got her wet beyond belief, so maybe she was a yes girl all along, playing the games of a no girl? I'll admit, it's an incredibly fine line at times.

[Nomad77]

There is nothing to learn from a NO girl. Chasing a NO girl is just wasting time. Where you really learn is from Maybe girls. Time is better spent learning to read girls better up front rather than spamming a bunch of girls. Of course you will be wrong about whether a girl is a NO girl sometimes and any girl can decide to do anything at any moment. But this is what I call a lottery mentally: you think that any girl could be a jackpot of sex and she could. But the chances of this happening is about the same as winning the lottery.

Spending more time and effort learning to read girls more accurately will give you much better results in the long-term and you will be much happier dealing with less crap from NO girls. A lot of guys become dejected from putting in a lot of time and effort on NO girls that they simply stop trying at all. If you get hit a with couple of NO girls screwing with your mind when you are starting out, it can mess you up.

[Dalaran1991]

(08-29-2014 09:59 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

There is nothing to learn from a NO girl. Chasing a NO girl is just wasting time. Where you really learn is from Maybe girls. Time is better spent learning to read girls better up front rather than spamming a bunch of girls. Of course you will be wrong about whether a girl is a NO girl sometimes and any girl can decide to do anything at any moment. But this is what I call a lottery mentally: you think that any girl could be a jackpot of sex and she could. But the chances of this happening is about the same as winning the lottery.

Spending more time and effort learning to read girls more accurately will give you much better results in the long-term and you will be much happier dealing with less crap from NO girls. A lot of guys become dejected from putting in a lot of time and effort on NO girls that they simply stop trying at all. If you get hit a with couple of NO girls screwing with your mind when you are starting out, it can mess you up.

Looking forward to your new thread on how to distinguish between NO and MAYBE without nerding off on IOI and whether or not she just incidentally scratch your shoe laces.

Have there been serious guides on this? I cant seem to find one.

[Nomad77]

One of the reasons a lot of guys make girls into a Maybe girls is what I call Relationship Projection - (deserves it own thread). They meet a girl they are attracted to and start creating an imaginary relationship in their mind about the girl. They do this because they are craving female affection and love - something we all need. But the moment you start to do this you will begin to act needy and you will break the cardinal rule of always following the girl emotionally.

[kinjutsu]

(08-29-2014 08:45 AM)polar Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 08:17 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  

A few of my friends say i'm leaving money on the table doing this with girls. I say my sanity is worth more than average sex with a cute girl.
I'm willing to wait till date 3 or 4 to get the notch because maybe i'm looking for a short term relationship with a quality girl.
You self-select yourself

How many guys would wait an extra date or two for a guaranteed notch?

You can easily go from a "Yes" girl to a "maybe/no" girl if you escalate too quickly when you first meet her.
I've personally made this mistake because i got overconfident.

How do you calibrate if the better call is to try to push through LMR or just call it a night and reschedule?

I've had not escalating cost me second dates and potential bangs before, and I've had to do damage control when I escalated after being pinned for "make him wait" boyfriend material.

Earlier this week, I pulled the "can I use your bathroom" gambit after a date and then tried to burn through the LMR...got her hot and bothered but still got sent home for the night. The girl backed out of plans for tonight. I'm not worried about losing her, just noticing a trend.

This applies to when i met a girl and pulled the number.

I determine the viability of the same day/night bang by how the girl presents herself. Meaning if when i'm texting her she's sending suggestive snaps or references sex at any point then i know i'll push for the bang.
If she's genuinely trying to get to know me a little bit before we actually meet up then i'll shift gears and keep things PG-13 till i'm physically with her. I've turned many "yes" girls into maybe girls when i was experimenting with sexual texting routines.
My conclusion is to never do it. It makes you look desperate and horny. Even if she goes down that path first i wont take the bait. It's a shit test to see how thirsty the guy is.
I use what is basically fuck up avoidance game now and i just act normal with her. My base value is high enough to have attract right off the bat. Since i didn't do much "gaming" to hook her there isn't a strong need to keep the attraction routine going.
If she doesn't flake on the 1st date/meet up i'll usually be able to continue through to the bang or i'll drop her because she has major disqualifiers that i cannot ignore.

This Applies to night game or where the opportunity presents itself to go for the same night lay
I look for the "fuck me" eyes.
Girls in night clubs/bars are easy to determine if they are into you or not. There friends may cock block and do other things but the girl is basically straight forward.
Because of the environment being overly loaded with stimuli you need to use game to maintain attraction and interest on some level (depending on various factors of course) so a "yes" girl slipping to a "maybe" girl can happen quite quickly and you could be unaware of this change until it's too late to be able to do anything about it.

This is where i think the level of game can make or break you. Your ability to read her and dial things up or down depending on her reactions can send her into the arms of some other guy or have her giving you head in the back of the taxi on the way to your place.

A good example of this i witnessed last summer. I was out for a friends b-day party. I knew the majority of the people in the social circle and i wasn't there to pull but celebrate.
A girl in the group was really feeling a guy in our group. I kept my distance to watch the outcome. They were digging each other and dancing/grinding in the dance floor for a long time.
Everyone was sure they were gonna bang that night. After a while i don't see her anymore and i see the guy chatting up some other girls. I go up to him and ask him what's up with the "girl".
He said "she saw an ex-bf that dumped her a few years ago, she went up to him to say hi and they started making out and they left together about 2 minutes later".
Now if this guy would've extracted her to another less public part of the club, left the club with her and grabbed some food or just straight pulled her to his house the night would've ended much differently for him.

I've found that not escalating has cost me notches in the past because i didn't have other parts of my game in order. I'm not saying i purposely won't escalate for some weird ego thing to prove a point but if it doesn't feel right then i won't worry about trying to smoothly touch her arm/hair/lowerback.
I think getting pinned for boyfriend material isn't as bad people make it seem.

What's worse?
Getting pinned down for boyfriend material and basically being guaranteed to see her again or escalating too quickly and scaring the cat and never seeing her again?
A lot of guys think scaring the cat and never seeing her again is a good thing.
I do not subscribe to that way of thinking.

I'm a patient person. Rushing through an interaction with a cute girl is the best way to never learn anything. I've used the "can i use your bathroom" line before with success and failure. The results have been mixed and unexpected. Getting rejected and the girl banging my brains out into a fuck buddy relationship. Or getting the notch and then never hearing from her again. Things never go the way you expect them to go with girls.

Unless you're Dan B. or famous; game/value will be the driving force behind the majority of your bangs. Every guy has those random girls that fall into your lap and are dtf from the get go but those girls are attracted to you on some base level and they are the outliers.
Ideally all the girls you want strictly for sex will already be super sluts and it will be easy. In my experience this is not the case, a lot of the time the types of girls you meet with be the exact opposite of what you're looking for. How many times will you aggressively escalate a girl who from all outward appearances is looking for a boyfriend and wants to wait to have sex? How says you have to date this girl exclusively? With all things being equal if the girl is into you and keeps saying yes to meeting up and doing activities with you eventually sex will happen.

As i got more experienced over the years i've learned to be patient with girls that are genuinely interested in me. The girl who wants to wait and the girl who is dtf at the beginning feel the exact same 'gina tingles for you the only difference is one isn't comfortable having sex so soon while the other is very comfortable having sex the same night.
The world will never run out of clubs sluts to smash so don't worry about that.

[Travesty]

I agree with sexting being over the top and can hurt more than help most of the time.

Best to bulldoze her suggestive texts by pushing for a meet up. If she freezes you break and reinitiate later. It's all about showing her you are bulldozing to get her infront of you to charm her panties off.

Pipelining for a trip and establishing comfort before sexuality is a different ballgame.

[Nomad77]

As other guys have pointed out, a Yes girl can quickly become a Maybe girl and a Maybe girl a NO girl. In my experience, the No.1 reason for this is pushing too hard too quickly. And once they become a NO girl it's practically impossible to change them back. In contrast a NO girl will rarely ever become a Maybe girl but a Maybe girl can become a Yes girl.

[Nascimento]

Touching girls on the face to determine their interest has recently become an important element in my game. During my dates I always touch a girl softly around her eyes (to remove a 'loose eyelash') or her lips to feel if they 'are as soft as they look'. I do this after she is comfortable with me touching her arms, shoulders, waist etc and is comfortable around me.

If she doesn't flinch whatsoever or show any signs of discomfort that's definitely a green light.

[The_e_man]

(08-28-2014 11:52 PM)nek Wrote:  

You know how they say " a girl knows if she'll fuck you in the first 30 seconds"? Well it's the opposite, she knows if she won't fuck you in the first 30 seconds. After that, she's open to varying degrees, and that's where 'game' comes into play.

That is a very sobering realization.