[Tuthmosis]

(06-02-2014 09:07 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

The outright women hating is disgusting. There was a thread on a forum that shall remain nameless where some girls went to a bachelorette party. Due to a freak accident, they died after their car caught fire.

It wasn't their fault (there was no "comedic justice" or anything like that) and yet a lot of guys thought it was funny that some women burned alive.

I oppose feminism but do not embrace the bitter, woman-hating aspect that is prevalent in the manosphere. There's nothing cool about people being burned alive.

I think the implication that "woman hating" is prevalent here is both inaccurate and dangerous. The final words on the bachelorette thread, that you used as an example, made it clear that no one was celebrating those women's deaths. I'm not defending every shitty commenter on every manosphere article or the occasional angry post around here, but RVF and ROK are clean by and large--cleaner, I've venture to guess, than Youtube and mainstream media comment sections. Guys commiserate on women's shitty behaviors and horrible trends in society, yes, but the kind of PUAHAte/Elliot Rodger hatred generally results in a line through a person's name within minutes around here. The difference is stark.

Mike, I understand you have some legitimate personal beefs with the manosphere, but to even speak Elliot Rodger and the manosphere in the same breath--and you've done much more than that--smacks of the kind of reductionist tripe we were getting from our most problematic critics.

[MattW]

I'd say keep the wiki page as short as possible. I don't think an organized and well defined group will help, and it could even hurt.

As for me I try to avoid writing the word 'manosphere' as much as possible.

[Truth Teller]

(06-02-2014 09:07 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

^ Just when he thinks he's escaped, he gets drawn in for one final mission.

The outright women hating is disgusting. There was a thread on a forum that shall remain nameless where some girls went to a bachelorette party. Due to a freak accident, they died after their car caught fire.

It wasn't their fault (there was no "comedic justice" or anything like that) and yet a lot of guys thought it was funny that some women burned alive.

I oppose feminism but do not embrace the bitter, woman-hating aspect that is prevalent in the manosphere. There's nothing cool about people being burned alive.

Yes, I agree. We're antifeminists, but we love women. There's a reason we focus on things like game and self-improvement. If we really hated women, we'd be the PUAHate guys. We criticize trends in society because we actually recognize that women are happier in more traditional roles.

The actually misogynist stuff (the idea that women are inherently bad/hypergamous/whatever) makes the large number of rational people in the "manosphere" look like extremists.

Quote:

Imagine a grid. You have four segments. Lifestyle v. Game and Direct v. Indirect.

(Think back to debates. Guys will debate whether lifestyle or game is better and whether direct or indirect game is better. There have been threads on each.)


Lifestyle | Game
|
|
-----------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------
|
Direct | Indirect
|



Early game - in fact, The Game book - taught that you could be a loser but if you did enough "cold approaches," you could meet girls. It's fairy tale thinking and magical beliefs.

Real Social Dynamics and other scam sites still teach that crap. That is game-indirect.

Yes, it is. I know I rail a lot about how MM and that kind of stuff basically teaches you to perform as though you were an interesting man, but that's what it does. There's no emphasis on actual self-improvement, it's just "how do I seduce this woman?" vs. "how do I become an attractive man?"

Quote:

Then guys started growing up, getting some career and business success, and started realizing that lifestyle was a major component to meeting women. (Think being in shape, hitting the gym, going to art gallery openings, wine tastings, etc., things that cost money.)

But they still believed in hiding your sexual intent and went indirect. That is lifestyle-indirect.

I am at the other end of the extreme. I am direct-lifestyle.

That is, my lifestyle is such that women are accessories to it. I don't run routines or have openers. I'm a train and they can take the ride or not.

Lifestyle is a huge component to meeting people. The marketing of "have any girl you want, even if you're morbidly obese" is a much easier sell than "have the girls you want within reason." I know I'm young and pretty inexperienced, but I've found that I meet women I'm more interested in at things like lectures and my major classes than I do at fraternity/house parties.

I know this may be very "blue pill," but in all honesty, party sluts don't appeal to me, even though I'm only 18. [/quote]

[Private Man]

Oddly, no one in the media has reached out to Kid Strangelove, the only guy who manages (not owns) manosphere.com, manosphere.net, and manosphere.org.

[Comte De St. Germain]

Although I agree with MikeCF's post about the paradigm, I still think indirect-lifestyle is the best route, but then again that's just my opinion. Sexuality is not still an open topic in the States, and testing the waters like a crocodile or tiger before it pounces is much better for me personally versus the honey badger or cheetah that runs out and gives no fucks while taking its prey down to the ground. Different strokes for different folks.
It's all a matter of preference for what suits a man best, but in all honesty I'm actually quite interested in the history of the what we call the "manosphere"(I agree this is a terrible name but it's all we got. Sounds much better than the masculinosphere that one kid discussed). Quite the interesting debate if you ask me especially as being new to the fact that such ideology existed(major props to Tuth for the Slut Signs article that got me into RoK and finding the forum. So I guess that was my introduction. That and the Roissey femme fatale article that I have bookmarked and saved to this day as my favorite article on the Internet).

[Roosh]

No one has yet mentioned what the manosphere was called before: the roissysphere. It only changed because he nuked his blog. Otherwise it's very likely it would have still been called that.

He started around 2007, though he had been commenting on DC Bachelor for a while. I was blogging mostly about game with rudimentary anti-feminism and anti-american women writing. My description on alpha/beta was too simplistic. My rants weren't focused. He connected a lot of dots that essentially created a new field of thought that went deeper. Not to mention his game advice was strong. It would be a shame if he wasn't in the wikipedia article. For us, he did blaze the path more than The Game. Lots of guys found me after reading that book, but if you read it now, you won't find many similarities with our philosophy.

It's easy to take for granted that the conversations we have every day was taking place in very limited scope pre 2007.

The Evil Patriarchy came late on the scene and wasn't too effective in spreading manosphere ideals like ROK is doing now.

[The Beast1]

(06-03-2014 07:27 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

No one has yet mentioned what the manosphere was called before: the roissysphere. It only changed because he nuked his blog. Otherwise it's very likely it would have still been called that.

He started around 2007, though he had been commenting on DC Bachelor for a while. I was blogging mostly about game with rudimentary anti-feminism and anti-american women writing. My description on alpha/beta was too simplistic. My rants weren't focused. He connected a lot of dots that essentially created a new field of thought that went deeper. Not to mention his game advice was strong. It would be a shame if he wasn't in the wikipedia article. For us, he did blaze the path more than The Game. Lots of guys found me after reading that book, but if you read it now, you won't find many similarities with our philosophy.

It's easy to take for granted that the conversations we have every day was taking place in very limited scope pre 2007.

The Evil Patriarchy came late on the scene and wasn't too effective in spreading manosphere ideals like ROK is doing now.

Roissy deserves a mention as a lot of his advice was absolutely golden, however it should be noted through the course of history that his blog took on a more fanatical tone as time progressed. Thanks to MikeCF, I was able to find a newspaper source that talks about the history of game (gold gold gold resource).

I know a lot of you guys are atheists, but what we're doing is essentially what happened during the Council of Nicaea when Bishops gathered to help shape what defined Christianity. Something similar is happening here. We have a real chance to craft something far greater and better than we all can imagine. The 'sphere's main goal of self - improvement resonates with a lot of guys and it has the ability to influence a large number of people. It's time we build up from trolling, sarcasm, and snark to include something that can seriously cause massive damage to entrenched feminist interests. Trolling is important, but clear and concise arguments will attract and win far more individuals.

[Roosh]

Here are two things I wrote in 2006 (the comments have the date):

http://www.dcbachelor.com/traits-of-a-beta-male
http://www.dcbachelor.com/alpha-to-beta-case-study

It was just too raw/incomplete. Roissy helped refine and explain the definitions more clearly while drawing in scientific resources that backed up his thesis.

[Deluge]

(06-01-2014 07:45 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Roissy cannot be cited and included on the wikipedia article. Period.

For him to be an acceptable source, he needs to admit his name and stop writing under a pseudonym. Until this happens, nothing can be cited from him.

Reminder: All cited material must be from people whose full names are mentioned or are published with a pen name . Roosh, Matt Forney, Ian Irowood, etc.

Everyone knows Roissy's full name. I don't see what the problem is unless you link to post-2010 posts when the blog's name switched to Citizen Renegade and then Heartiste where the author(s) are unknown.

[The Beast1]

(06-03-2014 08:39 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(06-01-2014 07:45 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Roissy cannot be cited and included on the wikipedia article. Period.

For him to be an acceptable source, he needs to admit his name and stop writing under a pseudonym. Until this happens, nothing can be cited from him.

Reminder: All cited material must be from people whose full names are mentioned or are published with a pen name . Roosh, Matt Forney, Ian Irowood, etc.

Everyone knows Roissy's name is/was Big Bird, I don't see what the problem is unless you link to post 2010 Heartiste where the author(s) are unknown.

I didn't know that and excellent information. Do you have an article where his name his mentioned? I can't find it.

[Roosh]

Quote:

Everyone knows Roissy's full name.

I would not jump to conclusions. It was never verified, and only brought forth by a hater (Lady Raine).

[JoyStick]

(06-03-2014 08:39 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(06-01-2014 07:45 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Roissy cannot be cited and included on the wikipedia article. Period.

For him to be an acceptable source, he needs to admit his name and stop writing under a pseudonym. Until this happens, nothing can be cited from him.

Reminder: All cited material must be from people whose full names are mentioned or are published with a pen name . Roosh, Matt Forney, Ian Irowood, etc.

Everyone knows Roissy's full name. I don't see what the problem is unless you link to post-2010 posts when the blog's name switched to Citizen Renegade and thenHeartiste where the author(s) are unknown.

He deleted his blog for a reason, why would you put his name on blast like that?

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Thanks for editing the name out, Deluge. Many of us are grateful to this man and would hate to see him persecuted by white knight and feminist mobs any further.

Frenchie, can you edit your post (which quoted the original with the name) too before it's too late?

[Deluge]

(06-03-2014 08:54 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Thanks for editing the name out, Deluge. Many of us are grateful to this man and would hate to see him persecuted by white knight and feminist mobs any further.

Frenchie, can you edit your post (which quoted the original with the name) too before it's too late?

Yeah I realized afterwards that even though it's all on Google there's no point continuing to post that name in public. I PM'd frenchie about it, I'm assuming Roosh can edit the name out if the hour passes though. We owe Roissy at least that. I wonder what the guy's up to now.

EDIT: I do think guys trying to minimize Roissy's place in the manosphere is whack, he's where it all started. I still the remember the day when I found his blog back in high school. A feminist friend of my then girlfriend posted a link to his SMV Test for Women post on social media. I'd already read "The Game" a while before, but finding Roissy was different. That day, that blog and that man completely changed my life. The Wikipedia article needs to recognize his (and Roosh's) preeminent place in the Manosphere.

[Frost]

Roissy is the intellectual linchpin of the Manosphere. He is the original synthesis of Game, Conservatism, Biology, and Masculine Renaissance.

I remember feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance when I was young. Hookup culture was working out well for me but, I couldn't shake the belief that the modern sexual marketplace was a symptom of a civilization coming apart at the seams.

Roissy superceded the naive sex-positive optimism of the early seduction community. He taught us to make peace with the realities of game in a decaying world: Yes, the decline of monogamy was a disaster for western civilization. No, there's not really anything we can do about it. But, since we have to accept the world as it is and not as we would like it to be, we might as well embrace it. Roissy is the greatest leader of men in the 21st century so far, because he led us... poolside.

Roissy is also one of the best writers of our era, certainly one of the most eloquent and poetic of the Manosphere writers. Going against the grain, I would bet that the original Roissy is still around and writing at least some of the posts at the current CH blog. Most guys who complain that "Roissy isn't as good of a writer as he used to be!" just mean that they don't like the subjects he writes about or the opinions he expresses.

Think of it like this: If Tucker Max were anonymous, would anyone believe that his new site was the work of the same person who wrote some great stuff back in 2004-2006? I wouldn't. The gap between Roissy/CR/CH's peaks and valleys is far narrower.

It's also worth noting that while most bloggers take regular hiati, Roissy has been posting regularly for the better part of a decade. Every writer goes through prolific and less-inspired phases. Perhaps Roissy's "guest authors" were just Roissy while his muse was poolside.

If RSD bought the blog, I would expect to see some implementation of basic internet marketing 101, and some attempts at using the blog to push RSD products. Whoever is running CH could start earning serious money with a few affiliate links and a recommended reading page. The deliberate refusal to monetize the site is a strong indicator that it remains a vehicle for self-expression and information warfare, not profit.

Roissy was also incredibly influential because he was in the right place at the right time. Back in 2007-2009, the blogosphere was very different than it is today. It was much more open. Tyler Cowen's wink and nod 'link' to Roissy exposed him to a large and somewhat mainstream audience of smart people. That would never happen today, now that blogs have segmented into tight communities that rarely share ideas across ideological lines.

The true test of a philosopher's influence is his ability to change and elevate the discourse. Roissy elevated the naive and id-driven pickup artists by showing us how Game fits into a larger worldview. Roissy elevated paleoconservatism by showing old farts that pickup is not their enemy, it is the natural reaction of smart men to a hypergamous world. Roissy showed us that truth and beauty have a fighting chance against evil, even if the only victory possible is the possibility of eking out a bit of love and happiness in a fallen world.

There are other writers who have played major and irreplaceable roles in the Manosphere. Roissy and Roosh complement each other very well. Roissy is the poet in the shadows, Roosh is the warrior in the field leading the army, i.e. this forum, Return Of Kings, and a decade or raw and honest writing about his experiences in the trenches.

Beyond those two, MikeCF has done more than anyone to teach practical steps for self-development. Matt Forney has written some truly great essays, and I suspect his best work is still ahead of him. Rollo, Bill Price, Jack Donovan, and a dozen other men have made their own major impressions on the Red Pill community, and there are hundreds of small blogs, each of which has probably saved the lives of a few men.

But any fair history will reflect that the philosophical core of this community is Roissy. We all owe him a debt of gratitude, and it is ridiculous to deny the extent of his influence.

[The Beast1]

(06-03-2014 09:01 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(06-03-2014 08:54 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Thanks for editing the name out, Deluge. Many of us are grateful to this man and would hate to see him persecuted by white knight and feminist mobs any further.

Frenchie, can you edit your post (which quoted the original with the name) too before it's too late?

Yeah I realized afterwards that even though it's all on Google there's no point continuing to post that name in public. I PM'd frenchie about it, I'm assuming Roosh can edit the name out if the hour passes though. We owe Roissy at least that. I wonder what the guy's up to now.

EDIT: I do think guys trying to minimize Roissy's place in the manosphere is whack, he's where it all started. I still the remember the day when I found his blog back in high school. A feminist friend of my then girlfriend posted a link to his SMV Test for Women post on social media. I'd already read "The Game" a while before, but finding Roissy was different. That day, that blog and that man completely changed my life. The Wikipedia article needs to recognize his (and Roosh's) preeminent place in the Manosphere.

Done

[JoyStick]

Shouldn't the g manifesto be mention as well? He, along with MikeCF, were among the firsts to preach about building your lifestyle up.

[Deluge]

Quote:

Everyone knows Roissy's name is/was Big Bird

My homie Roissy to all dem haters



EDIT:

(06-03-2014 09:15 AM)JoyStick Wrote:  

Shouldn't the g manifesto be mention as well? He, along with MikeCF, were among the firsts to preach about building your lifestyle up.

G did get a mention in the New York Times years back but I highly doubt he'd want to be associated with the Manosphere like that.

EDIT 2:

(06-02-2014 10:49 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(06-02-2014 09:07 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

It's different because it also include a street smart component. Anyone can say, "Be the best man you can be," but you really have to have a certain degree of skepticism if not outright cynicism for western women.

But you don't get sucked into that vortex of hate.

I've noticed where guys usually struggle with Game is not being able to accept women's minds and behaviour for what they are. The men hold onto their idealised perception of what women should be, and grow very bitter because of it. With some guys, this passes. It's a 'dying-off' of the old mindset.

Girls can be bitchy, illogical and emotional, sure, but only if you're holding them to male standards. They can still compliment your life and be a lot of fun to spend time with.

Missed this.

[Jackreacher]

For veracity Roissy will be mentioned. How people look at the recent changes to the his writings(as they are different people writing under the assumned name Roissy)is up to them. I read Chateau first and found it distasteful, somewhat insightful but ultimately pointless lingering on certain topics that really don't need that much delving into which he did to the point of coming off as bitter. Later on I found Roissy's old articles. They are like night and day. None of that racist laden crap. Solid game, excellent insight. Eventually he will be included, someone will do an honorable mention, why not one of us?

[Krauser]

It's astonishing to treat Roissy as anything other than the all-time most important member of the manosphere. It used to called "the Roissysphere" for fuck's sake! I'd say Roosh is currently the most important member but that only happened since about 2010.

[Giovonny]

Krauser!

I was just thinking.. Where's Krauser?!?

His contributions to day game are unparallelled.

Also, TheGManifesto was preaching lifestyle game years ago.

Shouldn't Ross Jeffries be recognized also..?

David Deangelo?

Who else???

[Vicious]

I gotta go with Tuth on this. I got on to the community in 1999 where the only source that worked with changing yourself and describing how women really worked was Ross Jeffries. Stone age material by today's standards but the foundation that the community is built on these days.

While I think Roissy deserves mention I never really caught on to his teachings when he was active because I simply saw that it was truths that had been distilled from others before him.

[Truth Teller]

(06-03-2014 11:50 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Krauser!

I was just thinking.. Where's Krauser?!?

His contributions to day game are unparallelled.

Also, TheGManifesto was preaching lifestyle game years ago.

Shouldn't Ross Jeffries be recognized also..?

David Deangelo?

Who else???

Krauser, Yad, and Steve Jabba are the fathers of direct day game. There were guys doing it before them, but the models were far, far worse. I have some of the Sinn stuff for day game, and it's basically like they tried to take Mystery Method and move it to a daytime setting.

[Zep]

This came about because of the MikeCF, Tuthmosis discussion about the relevancy of the Pua scene to Roissy’s existence.

Sorry this is so long. But this is really interesting to me. Here’s the TLDR,


-The internet ( approximately mid 1990’s )
-Newgroups ( alt.seduction.fast, guys writing about girls, 1994 to now, but really relevant to approx.1999 )
-Fastseduction, a World Wide Web site begun by Jay Formhandle, Alt.seduction.fast basically died after that.( Fastseduction approx, 1999 to 2004, someone can refine this if they have better knowledge )
-Approx 2003 to 2006 – the commercialization of the knowledge of all the posters to a.s.f. and fastseduction.
-The commercialization via Mystery, and others, but particularly David De Angelo because a few of his products leaned on evolutionary psychology a lot. Apparently he was very very successful, so these evo-psych ideas reached a lot of people around the globe.
-2007 The Game….didn’t read it. I heard it’s entertaining, a good read. I suppose countless numbers of guys flocked to the ready and waiting pua sites with dishonest marketing and false promises for only $2999.

Now it’s around 2007 and Mystery and game is huge, and David de Angelos successful mini-empire of Evo-psych laden Dvd products has hit the planet.

It is impossible for me to separate Roissy from this context. I read his stuff last night and was thinking ‘yea this is like this poster from masf” when it came to game.

But Roissy differs hugely from the pua scene in that he brings in feminism and other cultural elements. This was never a part of the pua scene. So I guess he is the guy responsible for the manosphere, but, I can’t see him being born without the pu scene.

That’s the end of the TLDR section.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I know of the scene


For what it’s worth “The Game” to me was the outing of the subculture of “Puas” by Neil Strauss. Basically he cashed in by selling out the underground society. He’d never have done it if it wouldn’t have made cash. (I never read it ). I guess I can see it as somewhat important, but isn’t it just entertainment for the public? It’s not an important book for ideas, it’s entertainment. The real guts were the posters to the Fastseduction website. Neil found Mystery, latched onto him, and then got into the scene, and then made big bucks from his book. There was a whole history behind Neil’s classy move. Archives of guys, very smart guys, writing and writing and writing about their experiences with girls.

Here’s a snippet from Mrsex4uNYC. Remember this is 1999, before the Mystery Model.
Check out what this natural is saying. ( this is for educational purposes only : )
Note the detail, the passion for the subject, 2000 posts of this. There’s way more to the pu scene than the commercial b.s.

MikeCFs’ posts on Roissy here are interesting. I checked out Roissy/Chateau last night.
And compared it to Formhandles archives( jay Formhandle ran a site as big as this one called Fastseduction ) he archived all of the writings of the posters to alt.seduction.fast, which was a part of the World Wide Web known as newsgroups ( which are like a bulletin board which anyone could post to, if they figured out how to use a newsreader). A LOT of credit for the Pua-sphere should go to Formhandle for archiving all of that gold from the newsgroups and making it available to guys via his website Fastseduction.

Guys might want to know that back in 2000, there was no blogspot, or wordpress that you could just get up and run in a week. You had to be able to write code, and I think creating a website cost thousands of dollars. So, regular guys just sought out the newgroups, you could get an email address, figure out how to use a piece of software called a newsreader, and then start posting! Today? even I can start a blog. What Formhandle did was build a website, then archived all the posts from Alt.seduction.fast so we could download them in .txt format.

The Game was entertainment, but, the scene behind that was pretty rich in discussion. I pulled out an old archive of Mrsex4uNyc last night. He didn’t post on Formhandles Website, only on alt.seduction.fast. His archive is 5mb’s in .txt. That’s a lot of posts ( 2012 posts ), and then there are about 30 other archived posters. And consider this is BEFORE Formhandle even built his site. Then everyone who didn’t know about asf on the newsgroups, suddenly became aware of this forum and went nuts.

It’s pretty clear to me that after skimming over some Roissy articles that he clearly could not have written something like “the 16 commandments of poon” and other articles without reading the pua scene stuff. Like, impossible. He veers off hard by not talking only about game, which the PUA guys did, I guess he would be the guy who started the manosphere because he brought in cultural aspects, which I’m guessing he had to, since the pua field had been fully exploited.

David Deangelo, watch his first dvd series. It’s loonnnng, and boring, and he padded the hell out of his product and products with evolutionary psychology to make $$$$.
I never heard of “Sperm Wars” or these evo-psych books. I’m not an intellectual, or any good at getting girls, I wanted him and other companies to stop padding their products with filler ( interesting, but irrelevant to getting with girls ) and get to the damn point.

But, do you know what kind of reach to the public DavidDeAngelo had? It was apparently huge. He was the first to really cash in on the scene and mens needs. But, consider this, now all this evo-psych stuff is being blasted out to the planet via the internet.

So, now game, and evo-psych is being blasted out to the internet via DavidDeAngelo’s very successful products.

Goggles, Tophoats, Boa’s, tricks and tips…this element of the game is like the cherry, on the icing, of a cake. It doesn’t speak to the enormous amount of discussion that occurred behind it. This is merely the commercialization of a pretty rich scene.

Mysterys archive is not too interesting. He was too busy being practical. What he did though was a huge deal. There were all this disparate theories coming from all these posters, he connected all the dots, and made a cohesive model out of it all. Guys need to understand just how confusing it all was with Ross Jeffries saying “it’s NLP’, David D, with “it’s cocky funny’, someone else saying it’s caveman. Ross Jeffries gets noticed because he’s obnoxious and makes a lot of noise. His actual product “ss” is crap. If you don’t believe me, just try it … hahaha. Then, try working out, dressing well, and learn how to be cool ( if you can, to this day this has been elusive to me ). But, if you can do this in a year, you will smoke any dude with NLP skill any day. Mystery was the guy who not only created a cohesive model out of all these disparate theories, but, he was the first to dare to bring it to the street, in field workshops! That was a huge deal back in the day. Ross J, only spoke in a seminar room, and I’m not surprised. It would be a blood bath to bring the weird guys who went to Speed Seduction seminars, out into the real world and start spewing this weird stuff to girls they just met. I guess it could work IF you found the right girl, but, that’s not a way to proceed is it. ‘this’ll work contingent upon finding a highly compliant girl who’ll actually 1) give you the time of day, and 2) hopefully respond to nlp.” Those are two very big asks. Actually, they’re very unrealistic. Goodbye R.J. hello Mystery.

Mystery might be a genius for seeing all this disparate theory and assembling it into a cohesive model. Basically “Attraction, Rapport, Seduction”. But, it’s the verbal skills and psychology needed in rapport that no one has competently covered. Mystery created a great structure, but filled it in with a lot of mediocre to bad junk …. Routines. Some of his routines were awful, ‘You’re like an mp3” WTF??, just watch his infield videos, he can open, deal with shit tests…you know, the technical stuff, it’s the soul he’s lacking.

Sorry this is long, and kind of unfocussed, I guess the point I'd make is this, I can't see how Roissy could have come about without the PU scene. Hope this helps.

[Truth Teller]

^^ That was a very good post. By the way, I agree that Speed Seduction, as a system, is nonsense. Also, this may be a "white knight" argument, but I think there's something inherently sleazy about hypnotizing someone into sex.