[cardguy]

@samsamsam - Can you remember the name of the book? Sounds interesting.

[TopPanda]

My great grandfather was injured at Ypres in WW1, and my grandfather was at Berlin in 1945 (and took some great photos).

My great grandfather was a stretcher bearer. They used to collect the body parts of their fallen comrades. One day he had a narrow miss from a shell and ended up being made completely stone deaf. The guy stood next to him was completely unharmed. He only signed up to get a free pair of boots.

My dad is pretty sure that nobody from their village was killed in WW1, which is miraculous really.

War is completely random.

I heard there were legions of injured men from WW1, but I don't recall seeing many of them when I was a kid in the 1970's. These guys must have seen some terrible things, but they never really talked about them.

Even my dad didn't know much about what his dad did in WW2. These guys were men, and they just didn't talk about what they'd seen and done, much less to a counselor.

[samsamsam]

(04-03-2014 02:50 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

@samsamsam - Can you remember the name of the book? Sounds interesting.

This is the book review I read.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/03/...oe-kluger3

Here is the book which as "meh" reviews.
http://www.amazon.com/Simplexity-Simple-...B002YNS18E

I think the book review is better lol.

[Quintus Curtius]

(04-03-2014 01:30 PM)Chaos Wrote:  

Can anybody recommend a good documentary or series about WW1? I know the big picture of what happened, but now I want to look more into details. Especially about Germany,
Prussia and Russia.

WW1&WW2 is just a damn fascinating piece of history.

The BBC did a great documentary series on WWI back in the 1960s. It was called "The Great War". I think you can find all of it on You Tube.

[Quintus Curtius]

My grandmother had two uncles who were Anzacs killed at Gallipoli.

(Anzacs = Australia/New Zealand Army Corps)
.

[Billy Chubbs]

For Canadians, WW1 has an especial significance; it made us a country. Canada found it's nationalism in the trenches. The outstanding performance of Canadian soldiers made Europe recognize us for more then being just another English colony. Canada today has few symbols of national pride, but the few we have almost all stem from WW1; the Poppy, the Maple Leaf (which soldiers used to distinguish themselves from other British units).

This nationalism carried to WW2, but unfortunately thereafter it was smashed by the boomers, the French politicians they elected and the head start Canada got on incorporating itself into Globalism.

Still, whenever a Canadian wants to appeal to a national identity, the symbols of Canadian nationalism almost always comes from imagery associated with WW1.

[RockHard]

(04-03-2014 05:21 AM)Flint Wrote:  

(04-03-2014 04:41 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(04-03-2014 12:13 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

which was without doubt the defining event of the twentieth century.

Why do you consider WWI the defining event of the 20th century instead of WWII?

I'm not QC but here is my answer:

- Without the result of WWI (Russian defeat, German defeat, Treaty of Versailles) it is at least questionable if the Nazis would ever have come to power
- WWI ended centuries of monarchic order in Europe. The seemingly everlasting power of Habsburg, the Tsars and Prussia was destroyed in just a few years. The result was republics and nation-states.
- Without Germany's tacit support for Lenin the October Revolution would probably have taken on a different direction, if not led to the Victory of the Tsarists in the Civil War
- The end of the Ottoman empire and the ensuing artificial borders of the new colonies (Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Palestine, etc.), drawn by France and England, are the major cause for the mess we have in the Middle East today

Bingo.

Tuchman's definitely a must read here. I also liked John Keegan's "The First World War", quite readable. What I found insane was the interlocking alliances that triggered the whole thing - you attack my ally, so I must declare war, and that cascaded through the whole continent.

WWI was also interesting in that Europeans experienced war as the US did in the Civil War - the old "line em' up and advance" tactic that worked OK when soldiers had muskets caused mass slaughter in the face of rifles and machine guns. Plus the advent of airplanes and tanks. It really was the first modern war.

My great Uncle died in Belgium. He was a seaman with the Royal Navy, but when it became obvious that the real need was on the ground, they took seamen, handed them a rifle, and stuck them in a trench.

[Comte De St. Germain]

Not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread but any of Hemingway's books centered around WWI especially The Sun Also Rises(I think everyone in the mani sphere can relate to the main character Jake Barnes minus the fact he lost his dick on the Italian Front). A Farewell to Arms was also good but dealt with one-itis too much. All Quiet on the Western Fromt is another WWI novel(not by Hemingway) that was written from the German perspective during the War.

[Comte De St. Germain]

(04-03-2014 11:31 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

I think there is like 6 different competing theories as to why WWI kicked off.

It is still something of a mystery.

Still - here is one take on it:

This is brilliant. Always thought Germany was rather stupid to rely on Austria and to rely on Italy twice come on. Not like Italy holds some personal grudges against Austria hehe. Homestly if Germany was not being dragged down by its allies in WWI they would have won, and if Italy was not stupid they could have won WWII too as well. Germany just picked really bad allies in both wars while having the brilliant idea to fight two front wars.

[bojangles]

(04-03-2014 10:14 PM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

This is brilliant. Always thought Germany was rather stupid to rely on Austria and to rely on Italy twice come on. Not like Italy holds some personal grudges against Austria hehe. Homestly if Germany was not being dragged down by its allies in WWI they would have won, and if Italy was not stupid they could have won WWII too as well. Germany just picked really bad allies in both wars while having the brilliant idea to fight two front wars.

They didn't execute that Schlieffen Plan to perfection, that would have killed the war, led to no trenches. The 1870-71 Franco Prussian war was basically a precursor as this is when Germany being a country for the first time in it's history.

[Barry Scrotada]

(04-03-2014 05:30 PM)Billy Chubbs Wrote:  

For Canadians, WW1 has an especial significance; it made us a country. Canada found it's nationalism in the trenches. The outstanding performance of Canadian soldiers made Europe recognize us for more then being just another English colony. Canada today has few symbols of national pride, but the few we have almost all stem from WW1; the Poppy, the Maple Leaf (which soldiers used to distinguish themselves from other British units).

Cool to hear, I always wondered about the significance of the maple leaf, and always thought the poppy was an Aussie thing. (Or maybe you both share it)

[Chaos]

(04-03-2014 05:30 PM)Billy Chubbs Wrote:  

For Canadians, WW1 has an especial significance; it made us a country. Canada found it's nationalism in the trenches. The outstanding performance of Canadian soldiers made Europe recognize us for more then being just another English colony. Canada today has few symbols of national pride, but the few we have almost all stem from WW1; the Poppy, the Maple Leaf (which soldiers used to distinguish themselves from other British units).

I can relate this to Finland aswell. Lenin gave independence to us after 109 years of Russian rule. After that followed a bloody civil war in 1918 between "reds and whites" which ended in White victory lead by Marshalk Mannerheim. This victory could probably never been done without German support of troops and weapons.

What many people don't know is that after this Finland actually chose to be a monarchy, a German prince Fredrich Karl was elected as the Finnish King but he never visited Finland and never came to real power before the government changed Finland's status to a republic.

And then Germany surrended...

[cardguy]

On some of the days of the heaviest bombings - and when the wind was blowing eastwards - apparently the bombs exploding in the Somme could be heard in London.

Blows my mind thinking about it - I would be interested in knowing if there is a way to confirm this story?

[Sombro]

Two great uncles fought in WWI. One went to "Fabric School" first (learning how to repair canvas biplanes). Went on to fight in the Argonne and might have been gassed. Ended up at Walter Reed and tried to bail. Died of TB I think. Great aunt was Red Cross nurse.

[Icarus]

(04-03-2014 12:13 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I plan to read Ernst Junger's "Storm of Steel", the memoir of a German soldier of the war. It's coming out in a new translation.

I highly recommend the book. If you can find a library with Basil Creighton's 1929 translation (reprinted in the 1970s), then get ready for an intense reading experience. Creighton's translation is based on the most brutal, most nationalistic German edition of 1924 that makes Jünger look like a deranged 20th century berserker. The 2004 English translation on Amazon is much softer, since it's based on a less brutal German edition.



The ending of the book (Creighton's 1929 translation) is absolutely amazing:

Quote:

Now I looked back: four years of development in the midst of a generation predestined to death, spent in caves, smoke-filled trenches, and shell-illumined wastes; years enlivened only by the pleasures of a mercenary, and nights of guard after guard in an endless perspective; in short, a monotonous calendar full of hardships and privation, divided by the red-letter days of battles. And almost without any thought of mine, the idea of the Fatherland had been distilled from all these afflictions in a clearer and brighter essence. That was the final winnings in a game on which so often all had been staked: the nation was no longer for me an empty thought veiled in symbols; and how could it have been otherwise when I had seen so many die for its sake, and been schooled myself to stake my life for its credit every minute, day and night, without a thought? And so, strange as it may sound, I learned from this very four years’ schooling in force and in all the fantastic extravagance of material warfare that life has no depth of meaning except when it is pledged for an ideal, and that there are ideals in comparison with which the life of an individual and even of a people has no weight. And though the aim for which I fought as an individual, as an atom in the whole body of the army, was not to be achieved, though material force cast us, apparently, to the earth, yet we learned once and for all to stand for a cause and if necessary to fall as befitted men.

Hardened as scarcely another generation ever was in fire and flame, we could go into life as though from the anvil; into friendship, love, politics, professions, into all that destiny had in store. It is not every generation that is so favoured.

And if it be objected that we belong to a time of crude force our answer is: We stood with our feet in mud and blood, yet our faces were turned to things of exalted worth. And not one of that countless number who fell in our attacks fell for nothing. Each one fulfilled his own resolve. For to every one may be applied the saying from St. John that Dostoyevsky put in front of his greatest novel:

‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.’ [John 12:24]

To-day we cannot understand the martyrs who threw themselves into the arena in a transport that lifted them even before their deaths beyond humanity, beyond every phase of pain and fear. Their faith no longer exercises a compelling force. When once it is no longer possible to understand how a man gives his life for his country – and the time will come – then all is over with that faith also, and the idea of the Fatherland is dead; and then, perhaps, we shall be envied, as we envy the saints their inward and irresistible strength. For all these great and solemn ideas bloom from a feeling that dwells in the blood and cannot be forced. In the cold light of reason everything alike is a matter of expedience and sinks to the paltry and mean. It was our luck to live in the invisible rays of a feeling that filled the heart, and of this inestimable treasure we can never be deprived.

I had the good fortune to be taken out at Hanover and sent to the Clementine infirmary. One of my companions there was a young flying-man of Richthofen’s squadron, named Wenzel, who had shot down twelve of the enemy. The last of them had first shot him through the shoulder. On the 22nd of September 1918 I had the following telegram:

‘His majesty the Kaiser has bestowed on you the order Pour le Mérite. I congratulate you in the name of the whole division. - General von Busse.’

As soon as I was fit enough I celebrated this event with Wenzel, my brother, and a few friends. As a doubt had been expressed whether we should soon be passed out fit for active service, Wenzel and I felt ourselves compelled to jump again and again over a large armchair. We came out of it, however, very badly. Wenzel broke his arm again, and I was kept in bed next morning with a temperature of 104. In spite of this it was not long before we were in excellent form for another Winter campaign. This was deferred for a while; and soon we had to take part in other battles than we ever dreamed. Now these too are over, and already we see once more in the dim light of the future the tumult of fresh ones. We – by this I mean the youth of this land who are capable of enthusiasm for an ideal – will not shrink from them. We stand in the memory of the dead who are holy to us, and we believe ourselves entrusted with the true and spiritual welfare of our people. We stand for what will be and what has been. Though force without and barbarity within conglomerate in sombre clouds, yet so long as the blade of a sword will strike a spark in the night may it be said: Germany lives and Germany shall never go under!

[Quintus Curtius]

This is amazing. I am really glad I found out about this book. It's definitely going on the reading list.

People forget that back in the day, the Germans were the acme of military prowess. Just unsurpassed...

.

[Saga]

(04-03-2014 12:06 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman is likely the best piece on the conflict.

I'd also recommend Tuchman's The Proud Tower, which illustrates the pertinent political, intellectual, cultural currents in Europe and the US on the cusp of WWI. Those threads really illuminate the magnitude of the conflict that was to come.

[RockHard]

(04-04-2014 03:24 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

On some of the days of the heaviest bombings - and when the wind was blowing eastwards - apparently the bombs exploding in the Somme could be heard in London.

Blows my mind thinking about it - I would be interested in knowing if there is a way to confirm this story?

Wikipedia repeats the story, though I didn't see an attribution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_day_on_the_Somme

BBC online mentions that too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/w..._map.shtml

[birdie num num]

For a good WW 1 film, watch Stanley Kubrick's "Paths of Glory." It portrays the immoral and callous disregard of the French command for their own soldiers and the futility of that war.

[Quintus Curtius]

(04-05-2014 02:03 PM)birdie num num Wrote:  

For a good WW 1 film, watch Stanley Kubrick's "Paths of Glory." It portrays the immoral and callous disregard of the French command for their own soldiers and the futility of that war.

Paths of Glory is without doubt a great film, and an underappreciated Kubrick work. Highly recommended.

[Quintus Curtius]

The poetry of the Great War is so great and extensive that it almost deserves its own thread. But here is my favorite, Alan Seeger's "I Have A Rendez-Vous With Death".

Seeger was a soldier on the Western Front. He was killed in action after having written this masterpiece:


Alan Seeger. 1888–1916

"I Have a Rendezvous with Death"

I HAVE a rendezvous with Death
At some disputed barricade,
When Spring comes back with rustling shade
And apple-blossoms fill the air—
I have a rendezvous with Death
When Spring brings back blue days and fair.

It may be he shall take my hand
And lead me into his dark land
And close my eyes and quench my breath—
It may be I shall pass him still.
I have a rendezvous with Death
On some scarred slope of battered hill,
When Spring comes round again this year
And the first meadow-flowers appear.

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear...
But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.


.

[funkyzeit]

that feel when your country is to blame for the beginning of that war

[Orion]

Most well known Serbian folk song about the war, which describes torturous retreat and evacuation of Serbian army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamo_daleko

Tbh, translation is way way too dull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAxgWekJCv0

Shortly after Battle of Cer, popular march was composed. Lyrics for it are mostly patriotic and sort of battle-cry, however, they were written only after the war. Along with this one, he composed several more marches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_the_Drina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R8wdJkJ4SA

Popularly, only the short theme is played at 2:15, not the full march.

As well as ballad "The French barque is sailing"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krece_se_ladja_francuska

Mighty is the deep sea
Deep, blue and wide
Its end is nowhere in sight
I cannot bear the thought

The French ship is departing
From the harbor of Salonika
Transport of Serbs moves
Warriors, wounded brothers

Every soldier fought
And celebrated his saints in the trench
He prayed to God happily
Hoping to return home

I depart sad and ill
Thought: "God, I am not alone"
My brothers are traveling too
To mourn, together, with me

There is no joy even for a moment
For a Kraut sub is approaching
And all pray to St. Nicholas
For his force at sea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfCr2Vy65Qs

[spokepoker]

[Quintus Curtius]

I re-read today Alan Seeger's famous poem I Have A Rendezvous With Death.

I just felt the urge to record a reading of it. So here it is, if you want it.
Read by me.