[CaP7]

I'll be rereading 'All Quiet on the Western Front' this summer. Classic book on WWI for me.

[DonJuanBrown]

If you guys can get an English translation of "The Good Solider Svejk," by Jaroslav Hašek, I highly recommend it. I'll copy the excerpt from the sleeve verbatim:

Quote:

An attack on war which broadens into a satire on the ancien régime of the Austro-Hungarian empire, The Good Solider Svejk recreates the age-old figure of the simple soldier whose sheer determination to survive brings into question the mighty social and political institutions he confronts. Set in a Central Europe which has long since vanished, Hašek's novel is nevertheless a timeless portrait of the 'little man' doughtily waging his own war against authority

This book is considered one of the greatest books in Czech literature.

[el conquistador]

One of my all time favourite historical heroes = British Prime Minister during WW1 David Lloyd George.

The only politician with game. Had a wife, a mistress and still had energy for more women. The upper class hated him but he didn't care. Alpha as anything.

'The Great Outsider' or 'The Unknown Lloyd George' are great biographies to get your started on studying DLG.

[Quintus Curtius]

It's interesting how WWI is viewed differently in different countries. The war exerted a powerful hold over British consciousness that has persisted to this day.
In Germany, memory of the war has been largely forgotten. It seems that the second world war completely swallowed up memory of anything that preceded it.
In France, the views are mixed.

[ElJefe]

^

Good reason for that. The trauma is proportional to the losses suffered.

Great Britain lost something like 800,000 soldiers in WW1. About 3x as many as WWII. France lost something like 1.4 million to a few hundred thousand in WWII. Germany lost nearly 8 million people in WWII and whereas in WWI 2 million men died + several hundred thousand civilians from malnourishment due to the Allied blockade.

That Germany lost WW1 is almost the greatest tragedy of all.

[Quintus Curtius]

I just checked out from the local library the audio book (18 CDs) of Max Hasting's "Catastrophe 1914". I have high expectations. Hastings and John Keegan are two of my favorite modern military historians, and never fail to impress.

[Sp5]

Re: Ernst Junger.

Have not read his book, but read an examination of his work and others in William Pfaff's The Bullet's Song: Romantic Violence and Utopia.

It's a book that considers the roots of violence in the search for intense emotional engagement, i.e. romanticism.

http://www.williampfaff.com/modules/news...?storyid=7

Reading the passage of Junger's that Icarus posted above, I just thought that Junger was all wrong and Remarque was all right. There wasn't any good reason for that war, and his blather about how war provides a meaning to life is the kind of thing that led to WW II in Germany.

Problem is, people do get bored collectively and look for excitement collectively. Too often, that means war. WW I was a good example. Nobody can take a step back and say: peace, trade, prosperity and diplomacy isn't bad.

[Don Juan Tenorio]

(04-05-2014 02:03 PM)birdie num num Wrote:  

For a good WW 1 film, watch Stanley Kubrick's "Paths of Glory." It portrays the immoral and callous disregard of the French command for their own soldiers and the futility of that war.

Quote:

The release of the film and its showing in parts of Europe were controversial. Active and retired military personnel, offended by the way the French military was portrayed in the film, vehemently criticized it after its showing in Brussels (although the film was otherwise well received). Contrary to a persistent urban legend, the film was not banned in France; however, the French government placed enormous pressure on United Artists, the European distributor for the film, through diplomatic channels, to refrain from releasing the film. As a result, the film was not submitted to French censors, and was not shown in France until 1975, when moral codes had changed.[8] In Germany, the film was not allowed to be shown for two years after its release to avoid any strain in relations with France.[9] The film was also officially censored in Spain by the government of Francisco Franco for its anti-military content, and was not released in that country until 1986, 11 years after Franco's death.

A film that makes so many governments so uncomfortable and make authorities take so much effort and time to prevent people from seing it has to be real good.

This is a documentary about the Christmas Truce, a beautiful and touching event which took place during the first Christmas of the war, highly recommended: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
I hesitate something like that could take place in any military conflict these days.

[Libertas]

20 Decisive Battles of the World by Joseph B. Mitchell has an excellent chapter on the First Battle of the Marne, which documents in great detail the Schleiffen Plan and how it was almost successful, but ultimately the German commander-in-chief Moltke was just too cautious to stick with it.

The failure of the Germans at the Marne is what led up to the trench warfare that laste until 1918.

[germanico]

(05-21-2014 10:35 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

That Germany lost WW1 is almost the greatest tragedy of all.

Its ironic that after losing 2 devastating wars and remaining divided for more than 30 years by opposing powers, its still the most powerful nation in Europe.

[Truth Teller]

(05-21-2014 11:33 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I just checked out from the local library the audio book (18 CDs) of Max Hasting's "Catastrophe 1914". I have high expectations. Hastings and John Keegan are two of my favorite modern military historians, and never fail to impress.

The Hastings book is mediocre, in my opinion.

For the history geeks here (I plead guilty), I've found that the literature of "who caused World War I" is very circular. Basically, here's how it goes:

Immediately post-war: Germany at fault
1920s:
Barnes (1925): France and Russia cause the war
Fay (1928): Russia, Serbia, Germany, Austria-Hungary at fault
Schmitt (Traditionalist): Germany at fault
1930s-1960: Continuation of the 1920s debates
1960s: Fischer's book- Germany is completely at fault.
Ferguson (1966): UK is at fault
Today:
Clark (2011): Serbia at fault

Basically, the historiographic arguments are unbelievably circular. I fall into a mid-traditionalist point of view. I believe that Germany is at fault for the war, but Russia and Austria-Hungary are also at fault. While elements of the Serbian government are at fault, Serbia as a whole is not.

[Quintus Curtius]

^^^

I'm surprised you thought the Hastings book was mediocre. Why?

[Truth Teller]

(05-31-2014 06:25 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

^^^

I'm surprised you thought the Hastings book was mediocre. Why?

It may be a matter of perspective. I've read a lot of material about World War I, so a lot of what he mentions isn't particularly new to me.

[Ardbeg]

I just finished AJP Taylor's War by Timetable. It suggests a series of planned mobilizations by different countries once started took on a momentum of their own and lead to war even though many of the parties (including the Germans) did not want that to happen.

Taylor is a crisp, witty writer. The book is a little over a 120 pages, so it's an easy read. And you can buy the Kindle version for $3. If you're interested in the subject, highly recommended.

[Truth Teller]

(06-01-2014 01:43 AM)Ardbeg Wrote:  

I just finished AJP Taylor's War by Timetable. It suggests a series of planned mobilizations by different countries once started took on a momentum of their own and lead to war even though many of the parties (including the Germans) did not want that to happen.

The interesting thing about that, however, is that the Russians seem to have mobilized in fear of German mobilization (which they believed had already started). Also, according to Fischer's book, the Germans wanted to start a war as early as 1912.

[birdie num num]

The owner of my local independent bookstore recommends "The Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark. He claims that it's one of the best books on the causes leading to WW1. Supposedly it's even better than Barbara Tuchman's "The Guns of August."

It gets excellent reviews on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/The-Sleepwalkers-E...006114665X

Has anyone read it?

[Truth Teller]

(06-01-2014 09:05 PM)birdie num num Wrote:  

The owner of my local independent bookstore recommends "The Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark. He claims that it's one of the best books on the causes leading to WW1. Supposedly it's even better than Barbara Tuchman's "The Guns of August."

It gets excellent reviews on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/The-Sleepwalkers-E...006114665X

Has anyone read it?

I haven't read all of it, but I'm familiar enough with it. It's very long and drags in some parts. Also, I don't really believe that Clark's conclusion is correct, but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

[birdie num num]

(06-02-2014 01:13 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(06-01-2014 09:05 PM)birdie num num Wrote:  

The owner of my local independent bookstore recommends "The Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark. He claims that it's one of the best books on the causes leading to WW1. Supposedly it's even better than Barbara Tuchman's "The Guns of August."

It gets excellent reviews on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/The-Sleepwalkers-E...006114665X

Has anyone read it?

I haven't read all of it, but I'm familiar enough with it. It's very long and drags in some parts. Also, I don't really believe that Clark's conclusion is correct, but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

Thanks. I'm going to check it out from the library.

[player]

Today marks the 100 Year Anniversary of the shooting of Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, eventually triggering WW1.



Thank god we were born a century later, or many of us would have ended up on the Western front - getting machine gunned, mortared, and living among the rotting stench of piss, shit and our friends' decaying bodies.



Meanwhile the women were nice and safe back home, shaming men into marching to their deaths and demanding the right to vote without any obligations in return.



Thank you to the courage, bravery, strength and honor of those who gave their lives for peace.

[turuk]

(06-28-2014 12:37 PM)player Wrote:  

Thank god we were born a century later, or many of us would have ended up on the Western front - getting machine gunned, mortared, and living among the rotting stench of piss, shit and our friends' decaying bodies.

This picture is from the Eastern front in Turkey.

[Orion]

Sarajevo once again held separate ceremonies.

Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina held commemoration in central Sarajevo, which Serbs refused to attend. It was held in a building with a commemorating plate which states that it was destroyed in war by "Serb criminals". Also, everything bearing name of Princip was renamed in Sarajevo, streets and bridges.

Serbs held two ceremonies, one in East Sarajevo, and other in Visegrad.

Sarajevo



East Sarajevo, statue of Gavrilo Princip



Visegrad

[samsamsam]

(05-21-2014 10:35 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

That Germany lost WW1 is almost the greatest tragedy of all.

Why is that a tragedy? Maybe I misread the point you are trying to make.

[Sp5]

(06-28-2014 02:32 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 10:35 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

That Germany lost WW1 is almost the greatest tragedy of all.

Why is that a tragedy? Maybe I misread the point you are trying to make.

Because it would have led to the natural German dominance of Europe we see today, without fascism, WW II and the Holocaust. Plus maybe no breakup of the tolerant Ottoman Empire, from which many problems continue today.

The thesis of Niall Ferguson's The Pity of War, which argued that Britain should have stayed out of WW I. It makes a lot of sense.

[germanico]

The British Empire went to war because it wasnt convenient to have the Germans ruling over France right across the channel. It was (and Im guessing it still is) British policy not to allow ONE power rule over the continent.

Plus, Germany would have inherited the french colonies, encroaching the empire all over the world.

Orion, after 100 years, the world still holds the same grudges. It would have been interesting to have a nationalist shoot the actor playing Franz Ferdinand. Everybody would have cheered and then found out that he was shot for real.

Is that the actual car? It doesnt looks very "princely"...

[samsamsam]

(06-28-2014 03:43 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(06-28-2014 02:32 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 10:35 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

That Germany lost WW1 is almost the greatest tragedy of all.

Why is that a tragedy? Maybe I misread the point you are trying to make.

Because it would have led to the natural German dominance of Europe we see today, without fascism, WW II and the Holocaust. Plus maybe no breakup of the tolerant Ottoman Empire, from which many problems continue today.

The thesis of Niall Ferguson's The Pity of War, which argued that Britain should have stayed out of WW I. It makes a lot of sense.

Sp5, thanks. Interesting theory. Unfortunately, speculating/theorizing is fun and can be informative but cannot change history (sadly). I might check out the book you suggested.

I once read a book called "How Hitler Could Have Won World War II". I am pretty grateful he ignored those opportunities.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Hitler-Could-H...0609808443