[Giovonny]

(08-22-2014 03:37 PM)viajero Wrote:  

I just want to learn the art of the sport

(08-22-2014 03:37 PM)viajero Wrote:  

when I have access to trainers and equipment I want to spend that time on technique.

Okay, I see the distinction here..

You just want to learn the fundamentals of the sport.

You are not preparing to box against another man in a real boxing match.

This is a very different mindset and process.

My advice is geared towards preparing to win an actual fight.

I will now adjust my advice to to match your goals.

---

I come across this in many sports -- soccer, basketball, etc.

Practicing the basic skills is one thing. Preparing to play a real game is something else.

In a real game, conditioning is the most fundamental skill.

In the learning process, technique is key.

To win consistently, you better have both.

---

For you, conditioning is not that important right now. Unless, you feel that lack of conditioning is hurting your training and hurting your double and triple jab. If you are not in shape to throw a good double or triple jab, than you need to improve your conditioning a bit. Not to be able to win a real fight, but, just to be able to train with greater intensity, punching power, movement, and punch volume.

Try to push yourself to train a little harder, not longer, just with more intensity and explosive efforts.

[DVY]

I get crazy winded from heavy bag workout.

My trainer thinks either from being too tense/tight and holding my breath when punching.

Thoughts?

[Kieran]

(08-25-2014 11:56 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(08-22-2014 03:37 PM)viajero Wrote:  

I just want to learn the art of the sport

(08-22-2014 03:37 PM)viajero Wrote:  

when I have access to trainers and equipment I want to spend that time on technique.

Okay, I see the distinction here..

You just want to learn the fundamentals of the sport.

You are not preparing to box against another man in a real boxing match.

This is a very different mindset and process.

My advice is geared towards preparing to win an actual fight.

I will now adjust my advice to to match your goals.

---

I come across this in many sports -- soccer, basketball, etc.

Practicing the basic skills is one thing. Preparing to play a real game is something else.

In a real game, conditioning is the most fundamental skill.

In the learning process, technique is key.

To win consistently, you better have both.

---

For you, conditioning is not that important right now. Unless, you feel that lack of conditioning is hurting your training and hurting your double and triple jab. If you are not in shape to throw a good double or triple jab, than you need to improve your conditioning a bit. Not to be able to win a real fight, but, just to be able to train with greater intensity, punching power, movement, and punch volume.

Try to push yourself to train a little harder, not longer, just with more intensity and explosive efforts.

I kind of understand where Viajero is coming from in that if you are paying for training, particularly one to one, then the focus should be on technique, even if you need to slow the pace a little to accommodate current fitness levels. Ideally, you want to be in shape so that you can get the full value out of your time in the gym, but I wouldn't be happy paying for one to one, only to have a coach watch me do sit ups, jump rope, and beat up the heavy bag with poor technique.

Also, you can get into fighting shape with six weeks of road-work plus regular boxing training, but the sport itself takes a lifetime. I've been training boxing off and on for just under twenty years and still feel like I have a lot to learn.

[HawkWrites]

It all depends what you wish to learn. You can work a 200-lb bag all day and not capitalize on any of the truths from our group. Sure, working a bag will accentuate your straight punching ability but will it ever help you in a fight? Hell no. You'll get the ability to land a crushing blow and knock a man out in a single hit but you won't realize the WHEN and WHY of that strike. Without the WHEN and WHY the power behind that punch is absolutely useless since you won't understand the offensive and defensive properties of hitting outward.

I worked a bag when I was younger and didn't gain any understanding until I started sparring with active-duty Marines. Having a combat-trained body going up against your developing technique is considerably different than just plowing on against something that can't fight back. Honestly I'd recommend that you go up against members of either the Army or the Marine Corps so you can take on a lethal target. Other than that and you're basically just lying to yourself when it comes to training.

If you're serious, figure out who's in the service and focus on kicking the crap out of them (and getting the hell beaten out of you since it will almost undoubtedly happen) repeatedly.

[Saweeep]

Bag work is great for mental discipline…this aspect of it is hugely under rated.

There's a reason why in all serious gyms across the world (Boxing, MT etc) when a new kid comes down he will probably spend the first month doing nothing but hitting the bag over and over. It builds character.

[reaper23]

(08-25-2014 05:53 PM)DVY Wrote:  

I get crazy winded from heavy bag workout.

My trainer thinks either from being too tense/tight and holding my breath when punching.

Thoughts?

sounds like the best first assessment. would be my suggestion too from experience.

[reaper23]

"Also, you can get into fighting shape with six weeks of road-work plus regular boxing training, but the sport itself takes a lifetime. I've been training boxing off and on for just under twenty years and still feel like I have a lot to learn."

this is only possible if the trainee is already in really good shape. even pro fighters need 6-8 weeks to get into fight condition. and not all of them are like ricky hatton.

[reaper23]

There is some real knowledge being dropped in this thread.

here are some thoughts on the general discussions:

relating back to the OP, i've trained muay thai since 2005 or so. i've had nice little amateur career. i trained up to 6 times a week at night, plus did separate S&C (crossfit) 3-5x per week in the mornings.

thats peak training camp effort.

i never was able to make any strength gains during the more intense training periods. and even just training 3-5 per week, my strength numbers didnt grow. they never really grew until i did dedicated strength training.

i 'retired' in 2011 and have made sporadic attempts to re-start training over the last couple of years, the last time last year leaving me injured four or five sparring sessions in.

i just had my first private pad holding session this morning since fight days. it was so good to be back in the gym, feeling all the muscle memory just firing, all the techniques just drilled into me relentlessly for years coming back out. it was perfect.

i'm in pretty good shape right now. power yoga and lots of body weight stuff (convict conditioning) after heavy powerlifting and crossfit for years. today's session destroyed my shoulders! burning and burning. near the later rounds it was all I could do to just hang my head and just barely get my heads up to protect by bending at the elbows.

just proves that boxing/muay thai conditioning is its own special conditioning.

in my opinion, the best way to gain ring strength is to be in the ring - including using a talented pad holder who is training you specifically. thats where i developed my punching and kicking power. thai pad rounds for days.

having really gotten stronger at deadlifts/squats/core during my fighting time, i can attest to how important core and lower body strength is. once i developed fully, many elements of my game changed including clinch becoming my primary distance.

private coaching or serious direct attention in each group session is essential to your development. being one guy in a room of 20 is going to make it hard to really learn the intricacies of each technique.

[reaper23]

i checked out rosstraining as suggested in this thread. holy smokes!

[DVY]

^^^wow. Thats next level. I seriously thought I was strong, but got into the boxing gym and got my ass handed to my on workouts.

Only problem w/boxing is that it drains me too much. I seriously cant do anything but work, eat and box if I take it seriously. Forget going out, girls or running a side biz.

[Giovonny]

(08-26-2014 02:14 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

I kind of understand where Viajero is coming from in that if you are paying for training, particularly one to one, then the focus should be on technique,

I absolutely understand Viajeros position and I agree with it.

If you are just trying to learn the tactical fundamentals of the sport, technique is #1.

If and when he wants to fight in a real boxing match, I'm sure his training will be adjusted to match his needs.

***

"there is more than one way to skin a cat"

I do boxing training a little different than most people.

When I work with boxers, the first thing I do is have them spar aggressively. I want them to experience what a real boxing match is.

My thinking is that I want them to feel and experience 'boxing". Not '"training for boxing". Just "boxing". Man vs man in the ring.

I want them to feel the fear. I want them to be scared. I want them to get exhausted in the ring and have to fight for their life. That's boxing, in my opinion.

This teaches them what real boxing is like and it teaches me what their strengths and weaknesses are.

After watching them in a real fight, I am much more prepared to help them improve versus if I just watch them hit a bag.

Also, I feel that being in a a real type fight teaches them exactly what they need to work on and how they can improve.

How can you truly prepare for a boxing match if you have never actually experienced real boxing?

That is my thinking.

But, I digress..

Again, we have two separate experiences:

1) Learning the sport of boxing.
2) Actual live boxing.

I encourage everyone who studies boxing to actually get in the ring and spar a few rounds.

Get your amateur license and get a few real fights.

Boxing technique is not limited to the hands and feet.

Actual live boxing will teach you that there are mental, emotional, psychological, and "spiritual" techniques that must be learned also.

These things can only be learned in the heat of battle. And, these things for me, are the most important parts of boxing.

Also, I'm am not trying to belittle anyone who studies boxing without actually doing it. We are all free to study whatever we want to. It doesn't mean we have to actually do the real thing.

But, that said, anyone who studies boxing should have a few real fights. It will advance their respect, understanding, and appreciation of the sport by many times.

(08-25-2014 05:53 PM)DVY Wrote:  

I get crazy winded from heavy bag workout.

My trainer thinks either from being too tense/tight and holding my breath when punching.

Thoughts?

Sounds like you have a good trainer.

Along with being tense and holding your breathe, the other reason why you get so tired is because throwing punches is very tiring. It takes months or years of consistent and dedicated training to be able to throw hundreds and thousands of punched without getting tired.

Getting tired just means that you are human.

[reaper23]

punching is hard.



the spiritual aspect of fighting is what brought me to the ring and into all my fights. the connection to my own force of will and desire to win was the best reward.

finding that last ounce of energy where you didnt think you had any before carries with you into life.

oh and PS if you want to be able to fight 5 rounds in a real fight, you better be able to train 15 rounds with live sparring of fresh partners if you want to have the energy necessary.

i was astonished at how much capacity i lost just by stepping into the ring versus at the gym (live sparring).

[samsamsam]

Question about shoes.

I currently train with tennis shoes. Should I make the effort to pick up boxing shoes?

Specifically, I am still trying to get all the technique down, I don't know if my foot work would be better if I had boxing shoes. From what I understand, I might be able to pivot quicker, etc.

But I am also thinking, if I can learn technique with less than ideal shoes, then I will be better off because I got my technique down with less specialized shoes.

I may be over thinking it. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks as always.

[WanderingSoul]

Wayyy over thinking it lol.

Get some shoes of you want them and can afford them, but it isn't going to make all that much difference at all, so don't worry about it.

[Kieran]

Personally, I would get some boxing or wrestling shoes if money isn't an issue. I'm not sure what kind of shoes you are training in, but running shoes are horrible for boxing due to all the cushioning. In boxing shoes / wrestling shoes, your balance and relationship with the ground will be noticeably improved.

[Merenguero]

What the hell happened to reaper23? That's the most shocking ban since Hencredible.

[samsamsam]

I might be imagining this, but I think my chest is getting smaller from all this boxing. Granted, I feel like I am trimming up and losing some fat. But it is sort of weird. I figure my chest would get bigger or stay the same from all the punching. Anyone else experience this? Thanks.

I also overheard some of the more experienced people at my gym discussing that guys with big chests are slower. It could be I heard it wrong, but they were talking about punching speed. I guess it makes sense you don't want to have too much mass if you are a boxer. But this could all be broscience.

[Giovonny]

(09-03-2014 10:41 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

I might be imagining this, but I think my chest is getting smaller from all this boxing.

This is common for many guys. Basically, your chest muscles are getting extreme amounts of cardio.

It's just like why marathon runners are thin. They do extreme cardio.

Boxing is extreme cardio, especially for the arms and chest.

Some guys do have the genetics to be able to maintain muscle while boxing but I've found that to be less common in my experience.

Doing some solid pushups and/or lifting some weights would obviously help pack on some muscle.

[StrikeBack]

Harder to keep your guard on with massive pecs, I reckon.

[Kieran]

Have your strength levels in the weight room dropped? If not, then it's probably just the fat loss you're seeing (don't forget, fat is marbled within the muscle too, not just around it, so when you drop significant amounts of fat, your muscles start looking a lot smaller).

Re muscles making you slower, within reason, it shouldn't have much of an effect, and may make you a little more explosive assuming you train for strength and not sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (you don't want dead weight slowing you down). However, muscles require oxygen, so you will likely gas out a lot easier compared to less well muscled fighters.

Weight training may also contribute towards making you tight. I personally don't believe that it does, but lots of coaches, and pro fighters with a lot more experience than me (see Shane Mosley's comments on this), believe that it does.

[viajero]

(08-25-2014 11:56 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(08-22-2014 03:37 PM)viajero Wrote:  

I just want to learn the art of the sport

(08-22-2014 03:37 PM)viajero Wrote:  

when I have access to trainers and equipment I want to spend that time on technique.

Okay, I see the distinction here..

You just want to learn the fundamentals of the sport.

You are not preparing to box against another man in a real boxing match.

This is a very different mindset and process.

My advice is geared towards preparing to win an actual fight.

Been absent from this thread for a bit.

Gio, I wasn't really clear on what I was saying. I want to learn to box and I certainly want to be able to really fight. I've been an athlete my whole life, with years at a high level, so for me just 'learning the art of the sport' means being good enough to compete. I wouldn't consider learning a beautiful jump shot but getting your ass kicked in pick-up games at the court to mean you know how to play basketball.

Anyway, what I was trying to say is more than 1) conditioning in a general sense I have pretty handled and 2) in the gym I like to listen to my trainers because they are good. My original question was how to improve a few boxing specific aspects of fitness, to include in my conditioning work when I'm not in the gym (or when it's open hours at the gym and I can just go to work on the bag). I've added a lot of rounds of shadowboxing, shadowboxing with weights, bag work, and then finish off everything with push-ups or just punching until I can't anymore and it's helping a lot. Seems to be helping my hand-speed, too, actually (everytime I recover and the fatigue in my shoulders dies off from a workout, the next one I do I feel quick).

And yes-I sparred my first or second day training. It was another beginner, but I fell in love with the sport right away. My trainer wanted me to know you can get punched in the face and it's not so bad. After that I pulled back on sparring with the reasoning being to not reinforce poor technique, but I've started back now. If you aren't punching and getting punched, it's just exercise, in my opinion.

Also, just wanted to say this thread is the shit, thanks to a number of you guys. My original question got thoroughly answered but I read and re-read everything recent anyway because there is some great knowledge being shared.

[Veloce]

Been absent too.

My update is that I simply wasn't able to box, lift, and work simultaneously. I boxed for 3 months and cut out lifting. Even boxing and working...by evening I was completely drained and useless at work. At my previous job that was fine since I had that place running on autopilot but at my new gig that's not an option.

Boxing was great but I started getting persistent pain in my shins and wrists, which I heard was normal. The whole reason I got into lifting was it cured me of the chronic back pain I've had most of my life, and started missing it.

When I did get back into lifting, I lost a lot of muscle memory and strength and had to drop my lifts way down. Also I felt like the bulk that I had on my torso was holding me back while boxing.

Conclusion is it's obviously not impossible, but WAY harder than I could have imagined and not conducive to a working a job that's physically and mentally taxing for 12+ hours a day. It would be great if I had a lifestyle where every day was dedicated to physical discipline, to lift, box, HIIT, whatever all day long and spend my free time recovering, napping, eating, etc. but add on a draining job and it's too much for me.

That said, it taught me a lot and got my physical endurance way up. Presently lifting every other day, and on my off days I jump rope like crazy, burpee jump ups, etc. My gym does have bags so I'll probably pick up some gloves and work that into my routine again. I'm getting close to my physical goals (cut from 215 down to 200, not sure what my BF is but it's gotta be around 12%, down from 14%) and may re-introduce boxing if I can get my physical endurance up to that level.

[Chaos]

How many hours are you guys spending on gym and boxing or martial arts a week?
I use to go 5 times a week, 90 mins pass for kickboxing and jiu-jutsu.

The problem for me is that I have to spend 1 hour in transportation every time I go to my kickboxing gym or if I want to go to another gym and lift weights.
That's 2,5 hour a day in total when I have kickboxing.

Now I also need to invest a lot of time in making money.
I will be very busy.

It feels like the day is too short and the hours are not enough.

What is a good amount of time to combine kickboxing and gym.
It's maybe not a good combination because I seriously wanna bulk up with some muscles in the gym. But I also love kickboxing and it's intensity.

What is a good balance in this. The gym and the kickboxing place are very close to each other.
But I can't see myself going to lift weights after a 90 min boxing training. Those sessions are brutal and exhausting.

I've been toying with the idea of cutting out jiujitsu
And do only two days of kickboxing. 2x90min a week.
The rest of the week is availble for gym days.

Anyone with some advice on this?

[samsamsam]

I probably spend 2 to 3 hours a day in various forms of physical activity. Weights/cardio AM, boxing in afternoon. I need to work on my diet a bit, I actually think I work out so I can eat whatever I want, even though do IF also. I am not getting cut up as quickly as I would like, so I might have to really get disciplined on my diet.

@ DVY
Today, a trainer was doing mitts with me and gave me a tip/exercise. When the 30 second bell rings, we usually just do punches as fast as possible. I tense up, so he made me speak to him while doing it. It wasn't about physics or anything, but it was more to distract me to loosen me up. Sort of like that Major League scene when the catcher was reciting things he read in Playboy. It is a crutch but I felt better coming out of this session than others just by being able to relax.

[EagleMan]

When I was most ripped was when I was mixing in my workouts with boxing. I plan on starting boxing again, I'm doing bjj now but I think I'm going to stop because I don't want to get injured again.