[WanderingSoul]

(07-29-2014 12:53 AM)Vroom Wrote:  

Sometimes, but nowhere near as often as it's a knee or elbow, which is where the real value of kickboxing lies. Don't get many of those in boxing.

You don't get them in the majority of kickboxing rule sets either.

Many don't allow kicks below the waist or kicks with the shin. I.E. Muay Thai style kicks.

I would not go to a martial arts school and learn "kickboxing", it is very likely it will be bullshit.

[Vroom]

I've never even seen "kickboxing" offered anywhere, it's always muay thai. You still learn knees and elbows even if you do water it down for competition.

[WanderingSoul]

In the US kickboxing is offered tons of places, but there are no knees and elbows. Not even in training. Usually taught at karate schools, as full contact karate is basically the same thing. Think Chuck Norris style.

So if he found kickboxing at a martial arts school as he said, it's very unlikely to have knees and elbows. It's probably American rules kickboxing, which is bullshit.

Muay Thai is much less common in the US. And the places that do have it market it as Muay Thai, not kickboxing. Muay Thai gyms train knees and elbows for sure, but there isn't many Muay Thai gyms in the US. I think Muay Thai is more popular over in Austrlia than in the US.

[Saweeep]

(07-29-2014 04:07 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

In the US kickboxing is offered tons of places, but there are no knees and elbows. Not even in training. Usually taught at karate schools, as full contact karate is basically the same thing. Think Chuck Norris style.

So if he found kickboxing at a martial arts school as he said, it's very unlikely to have knees and elbows. It's probably American rules kickboxing, which is bullshit.

Muay Thai is much less common in the US. And the places that do have it market it as Muay Thai, not kickboxing. Muay Thai gyms train knees and elbows for sure, but there isn't many Muay Thai gyms in the US. I think Muay Thai is more popular over in Austrlia than in the US.

I wouldn't call Kickboxing bullshit. Far from it.

I can only comment on the UK scene but here kickboxing is massive both as a participant sport and from a fighting perspective.

Most kickboxing school here teach knees and elbows in class; given that most levels of MT here don't allow elbows anyway, the difference is marginal at best.

Kickboxers' hands are usually far superior to MT hands imho; for self defence this is a key difference. The styles have merged outside the ring mostly.

Would you call Dutch Kickboxing bullshit? They don't do elbows either.


(I'm in the martial arts business btw)

[Saweeep]

(07-15-2014 06:54 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

(07-14-2014 11:30 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Just wondering if anyone had a good tip on how to stay relaxed while boxing. I know when I tense up my punches slow. I searched around the internet a bit and found this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMA6FT4noe0.

But I don't think my balance is off too much.

I just find myself tensing the upper body a lot. Part of it is maybe I am thinking about what I need to do vs being in the moment.

Any suggestions? Could be I just need more practice.

Thanks.

You're right that it's not about balance. Beginners being told to relax is so common, but I hardly ever see coaches explain what they mean. From what I've seen, usually the problem is that they are trying to muscle the punch, instead of letting it pop / snap out from the shoulder. You don't need to focus on being completely relaxed, but rather focus on letting the correct movement occur freely at the shoulder.

It's difficult to describe with words, so maybe these videos will help...

Watch Gamboa shadow boxing from 3.55 in this video, and pay close attention to the movement at the shoulder, this is what your form should look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmfXaQ8qBww

It should be easy to see what I mean on the jabs and straight punches in the video above, but it might be a bit harder on the hooks and uppers because of his clothing. With hooks and uppers, the body moves before the shoulder and arm, causing a bit of a stretch, and then the shoulder pops as the punch snaps out (you can see a bit of a jump at the shoulder as this takes place). This actually happens with straight punches too but it's more subtle. You can see an example clearly by watching Rigondeaux at 4.55 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbmUIQrC6E

With hooks the movement at the shoulder is similar to the uppercut, in that there is a stretch and then a pop at the shoulder. However, obviously it occurs at a different angle, and so the shoulder ends out in front covering the chin, more like on a straight punch. You can see the movement clearly from Mayweather in this video at 3.04, 3.10 (best example), and 3.21: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQJ9ZEd99Nw

The poster above also made a good suggestion about not clenching the fists, although I'd add advise not to do what some fighters do, which is to completely relax the hands until impact, as this will likely lead to hand injuries. Instead you can kind of half form a fist, but just don't clench it tightly.

I hope that helps

I'm a kickboxing fighter trainer and when I tell people to relax, which is all the time with beginners, its usually always a result of them clenching their fists tight inside the gloves at all times; like a sprinter, they need to be relaxed as the tension travels all the way up the arms, through the shoulders and into the back.

As you say, it is impossible to snap any technique whilst tense like this.

I probably don't know as much about pure boxing as a boxing coach though, in fairness.

[Saweeep]

(07-18-2014 12:32 AM)LeBeau Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 01:35 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

going to start next week but I have one question: boxing or kickboxing?

There's a boxing gym a few blocks from my place.

A martial arts place that does kickboxing within a couple minutes driving distance.

Here's the age old question everyone asks about martial arts: Which one would be better in a street/bar fight?

Think about all the fights you've seen in real life and on videos of real life situations.

How often is a kick the determining factor?

You'd be much better served learning how to box, not only to punch, but to avoid getting punched.

Also, I'm assuming since you only have so much time, there's something to be said for specialization.

Focus on building a decent boxing foundation, then you could always move to kickboxing after, rather then trying to learn both punches and kicks at the same time.

I agree with this, mostly.

The only thing I disagree with is moving from boxing to kickboxing later. Despite looking the same to the uninitiated, it's harder than you'd think.

A lot of boxing defensive movement will get you kicked in the head and the stances are hard to switch between imho.

It's like the difference between a KB/MT stance…only slightly different but enough to make transition very, very tough.

[WanderingSoul]

I didn't call kickboxing bullshit. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I said kickboxing at a martial arts school in the US is likely to be bullshit, and it is. American rules kickboxing is crap. It's basically karate.

Dutch kickboxing is my favorite styles of striking, but that isn't what they teach at US martial arts schools.

I'm not saying kickboxing is bullshit. Im saying kickboxing in the US is mostly bullshit and most likely won't have any knees or elbows, which is the original point I was responding too.

[Saweeep]

(07-29-2014 06:38 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

I didn't call kickboxing bullshit. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I said kickboxing at a martial arts school in the US is likely to be bullshit, and it is. American rules kickboxing is crap. It's basically karate.

Dutch kickboxing is my favorite styles of striking, but that isn't what they teach at US martial arts schools.

I'm not saying kickboxing is bullshit. Im saying kickboxing in the US is mostly bullshit and most likely won't have any knees or elbows, which is the original point I was responding too.

You said "American Rules Kickboxing, which is bullshit".

[WanderingSoul]

You're really dense. I've explained myself several times. You obviously know what I am saying, yet continue to cherry pick partial statements to make an argument.

American rules kickboxing is bullshit, but not all kickboxing is bullshit. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.

America rules kickboxing does not allow knees, elbows, kicks below the waist or kicks using the shin.

If he goes to a martial arts school in the US, it is very likely to be American rules kickboxing, which is bullshit.

[the chef]

(07-08-2014 11:09 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 10:49 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Never used Winning, sure they are great, but don't think that you need to buy $400 gloves. Get a solid pair of $100 gloves and you'll be more than fine.

Also, if you're new to boxing, walking into the gym with a $400 pair of gloves will make you stand out, which might not be a good thing come sparring time.

I totally agree and understand, sort of like the new kids with nice sneakers and he gets beat up for them. Just trying to find the best way to protect the hands and wrists. I found these for 100 bucks and they are well reviewed. Winning clones

http://www.ringtocage.com/japanese-style...r-lace-up/

(07-08-2014 09:38 PM)paulstein Wrote:  

From what I've learned, the most important thing in boxing is staying loose and being able to relax.

Yep, learning that too. My trainer can tell when I am too stiff (my face crunches up he says) I am definitely a little tight, trying to do it "right". He says I'll get there just need to train more.

actually sparred with a kid who had the ring to cage gloves last weekend. i checked em out and they're pretty much almost comparable to my winnings. i tried em on and the ring to cage gloves felt much roomier. they're "wider" or "fatter" per se... so if you have fat hands i don't think it'd be that much of a problem. the foam padding in the gloves is excellent. when the gloves strike a heavy bag the popping sound is almost identical to the winnings. real good gloves to use if you want to practice technique on your hooks and uppercuts to really lay into the bag.

i don't know if i can comment on the durability of the gloves as my winnings look pretty much brand new after 2 years of training and his ring to cage's were brand new, but the quality of the ring to cage's looked pretty good. for $100 i would definitely bite the bullet.

[iknowexactly]

I applaud you for getting in good shape, but I don't know if boxing culture has taken into account the increasing evidence getting hit in the head in even pretty minor ways can have lasting and cumulative effects.

Here's a link to an interview with Dr. Flanagan,co director NYU Concussion center.

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/15/174409382/...-the-brain

Besides the broad scientific evidence, in anecdotal evidence my co-worker was describing recently how her healthy, fit, non-drunk, non-smoking father developed severe memory problems in his late 50s, until he didn't even recognize people in his 60s.

The one known wild card? Avid boxer as a youth.

From the interview with the NYU Concussion center co-director:

FLANAGAN: So if you consider the brain as, in its natural state, has the consistency of formed Jell-O - it's actually quite soft - and it's floating in fluid called the cerebrospinal fluid, and it's all encased in a very hard skull, and the inner surface of the skull sometimes is not very smooth.

So if you are in a situation where you fall, or you hit your head, and the brain gets jerked back and forth...

NPR INTERVIEWER: Rings like a bell.

FLANAGAN: That's right. The soft brain will strike itself on the inner portion of the skull and potentially be damaged.

[Chivas989]

I always wanted to learn how to box but the fear of having a concussion at my age (I'm 36) is terrifying. My suggestion is to train aggressively in boxing (stances, punches, bag work, conditioning etc) and protect yourself tremendously (mostly head gear) during sparring sessions.

[Saweeep]

(08-06-2014 03:17 PM)Chivas989 Wrote:  

protect yourself tremendously (mostly head gear) during sparring sessions.

That is a can of worms in itself, especially if internal head injuries are your main concern.

[samsamsam]

(08-06-2014 06:52 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(08-06-2014 03:17 PM)Chivas989 Wrote:  

protect yourself tremendously (mostly head gear) during sparring sessions.

That is a can of worms in itself, especially if internal head injuries are your main concern.

CBW, could you elaborate? I am not at a sparring level yet. But it seems like it would be good to do for my training and protection.

[the chef]

all head gear does is prevent cuts and keeps you safe from headbutts. it doesn't really lessen the blow. some trainers actually think it makes your head a bigger target.

[WanderingSoul]

(08-06-2014 10:19 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

I applaud you for getting in good shape, but I don't know if boxing culture has taken into account the increasing evidence getting hit in the head in even pretty minor ways can have lasting and cumulative effects.

Here's a link to an interview with Dr. Flanagan,co director NYU Concussion center.

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/15/174409382/...-the-brain

Besides the broad scientific evidence, in anecdotal evidence my co-worker was describing recently how her healthy, fit, non-drunk, non-smoking father developed severe memory problems in his late 50s, until he didn't even recognize people in his 60s.

The one known wild card? Avid boxer as a youth.

From the interview with the NYU Concussion center co-director:

FLANAGAN: So if you consider the brain as, in its natural state, has the consistency of formed Jell-O - it's actually quite soft - and it's floating in fluid called the cerebrospinal fluid, and it's all encased in a very hard skull, and the inner surface of the skull sometimes is not very smooth.

So if you are in a situation where you fall, or you hit your head, and the brain gets jerked back and forth...

NPR INTERVIEWER: Rings like a bell.

FLANAGAN: That's right. The soft brain will strike itself on the inner portion of the skull and potentially be damaged.

Millions of high school football players are just fine. I dont think a recreational boxer is going to take many more, or harder, shots to the head than they do. Sounds like fear mongering to me.

And honestly, after reading about you getting thrown to the ground by your Ukrainian landlord and having PTSD over it, I'd much rather take the risks involved with boxing. I don't ever want to be so helpless and unable to defend myself.

[MikeCF]

Yes, concussions are bad and you shouldn't be having gym wars.

But treating recreational boxing as if it's some huge danger reminds me of those nerds who shop at sun stores and never leave the house without a full hat, gloves, and UV-protectant clothing.

[Saweeep]

Well the argument has raged for years in the UK Martial Arts community and recently in Amateur Boxing.

The theory goes that head guards increase the size of the "head" (for want of a better phrase) and so when blows are received it increases the rotational force applied and therefore causes more internal damage than not wearing one.

Hence the Amateur Boxers not wearing HGs at the Commonwealth Games last week in Glasgow.

The flip side of course is more cosmetic damage.

[Cyr]

(08-06-2014 09:23 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Yes, concussions are bad and you shouldn't be having gym wars.

But treating recreational boxing as if it's some huge danger reminds me of those nerds who shop at sun stores and never leave the house without a full hat, gloves, and UV-protectant clothing.

How much do you have to get hit in the head for it to matter, and by gym wars do you mean very hard sparring sessions in your gym?

Not keyboard jockeying, just wondering because my gym has serious sparring without headguards, and Ive been worried about this for awhile.

[the chef]

there's nothing to be gained from having wars in the gym unless you're a pro fighter in training camp.

you should always be sparring with the intention of getting better or learning new skills. with that being said, if you have some holes in your game, like let's say for example you drop your hands after you throw your shots, or you don't move your head enough, or your footwork is lacking; you should be working with guys at or above your level to help you see these flaws and show you what counter shots you're prone to.

will you probably have to take a couple of shots? most likely. but there's really no benefit to having an all out gym war where someone eats a ton of power shots at full force and gets their head taken off. nobody gets any takeaway from that.

[Giovonny]

My brother killed himself because of brain damage caused by street fighting, boxing, mma, football, wrestling, etc.

He didn't get hit in the head once or twice, he got hit in the head thousands of times!

Concussions are a risk in many sports -- football, soccer, hockey, boxing, wrestling, mma, bull riding, rugby, baseball, etc.

One or two head shots are unlikely to hurt you long term. What will hurt you long term is years and years and pounding and abuse.

With recreational boxing, I think the benefits outweigh the risks. The chances of getting long term brain damage are very slim.

Keep your hands up, move away from danger, and protect yourself at all times.

If you get one concussion, take a break and be more careful.

If you get two concussions, consider a safer sport.

If you get three concussions, stop boxing.

My brother probably had dozens of concussions.

***

I want to make another point about boxing..

Some guys like to "brawl" and other guys like to "box".

"Brawlers" often like to exchange blows, they take shots and they give shots, they don't use defensive tactics as much.

"Boxers" use defensive fundamentals, they avoid vicious exchanges, they try to avoid getting hit.

Brawlers need to be more careful, they often absorb more head shots then "boxers".

Use your defense! Avoid getting hit! That's the best way to avoid brain damage.

***

(08-07-2014 10:29 AM)the chef Wrote:  

there's nothing to be gained from having wars in the gym

I generally agree but I want to say something..

"Gym wars" did a lot for my life. They gave me a lot of confidence and self belief. I fought some tough guys and I held my own. I earned a lot of respect.

The confidence transferred to outside of the ring.

"Gym wars" made me into the man I am today. They have made me money, got me pussy, and solidified my self belief.

Don't get me wrong, getting hit in the head is bad.

I do think its very important that people avoid heavy blows to the head.

Try to "spar" without going to "war".

Maybe, this is easy for me to say because I am a very defensive fighter.

If you are gonna box, protect yourself, try not to get hit.

[samsamsam]

Gio,

Very sorry about your brother. Thanks for the information you shared here.

[Roosh]

It will depend on the intensity of your boxing class. If it's really intense, you probably won't have much energy left for heavy lifting more than 2x a week.

I found boxing with Convict Conditioning-style workouts to be most compatible, but you may lose some size in place of getting more ripped. I've seen a few guys in boxing class that were large, but by far most guys have athletic body types. You have to put a lot of time a week to train in both.

Or just wait until you injure your shoulder or nose in boxing class and then you can hit the weight room harder while you heal.

[Saweeep]

(08-17-2014 09:39 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

It will depend on the intensity of your boxing class. If it's really intense, you probably won't have much energy left for heavy lifting more than 2x a week.

I found boxing with Convict Conditioning-style workouts to be most compatible, but you may lose some size in place of getting more ripped. I've seen a few guys in boxing class that were large, but by far most guys have athletic body types. You have to put a lot of time a week to train in both.

Or just wait until you injure your shoulder or nose in boxing class and then you can hit the weight room harder while you heal.

You're right in that you have to put a lot of time in; to rest though.

I do 12 rounds pad work per day with one of my staff. I also lift heavy for 90 minutes and run 3/4 miles every day.

The only way this is feasible is to spend a good portion of the day doing absolutely nothing and get 9+ hours sleep per night. And take days off as and when my body tells me to.

For those with normal jobs, this is pretty impossible I would think.

I started this kind of crazy schedule when I lived and trained in Thailand.

For my whole life I have always structured my businesses around my lifestyle choices; it's the key to long term happiness in my opinion.

[samsamsam]

(08-17-2014 10:18 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

I do 12 rounds pad work per day with one of my staff.

Staff as in butler?

On a serious note, CBW how many days a week do you train twice a day?

I am trying to get on that schedule but hesitant to do heavy upper body on a boxing day. I'll do heavy legs or cardio in the morning on a day I plan on boxing.

On a side note, I have been away for a week and miss hitting the bag. I finally pulled the plug on those gloves. Can't wait to use them this week.