[Scuba_Instructor]

(01-17-2014 03:11 PM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

I play these things by my mood rather than some hard and fast game rule. Or rather, that is my rule. Kind of like Bruce Lee's philosophy on fighting: "be like water".

If I'm in a good mood and feel like drinking a beer while waiting for a girl, cool, I'll wait. I'll sit and bullshit with the bartender and make small talk with some dude next to me and enjoy the good vibes. It's all good.

So when the girl arrives, I'm pretty nonchalant about the whole thing and she really doesn't have any power to affect my mood that night. She falls into my elated frame. And because I'm enjoying myself, I win regardless of how things go with the dame.

On the other hand, if I'm feeling annoyed then I'll respect that feeling.

I've bounced when a girl was 5 minutes late, only for the girl to text me just minutes later telling me she'd arrived. I've walked out in the middle of dates when a girl said something I didn't like or made a face that rubbed me the wrong way. Anything at all can set me off.

Or sometimes when my body decides that there isn't any physical chemistry I'll just say it was nice meeting you and disappear. In all cases I just listen to what I'm feeling, tempered by mid-range strategic decisions.

I can always be congruent when I ask myself "what do I want?" in a given situation and go with that. Always.

I'm not suggesting to act like an erratic at the whim of any and all emotions. Sometimes you need to make strategic moves that require dealing with annoying situations and feelings for the payoff a few moves ahead.

But in general, this has been an incredibly powerful M.O. for me. And while it seems short-sighted the empirical results have been quite fruitful for me. Think "unpredictable badboy".

I'd go so far as to say my whole game --- inner and outer --- could be summed up as "ask myself what do I want and do that thing. Or, put another way: identify what I don't want, and don't do that thing."

Thank you for taking the time to write such an illuminating post. It's good to hear from more experienced players in the field!

One thing in particular rang true with me - Sometimes you need to make strategic moves that require dealing with annoying situations and feelings for the payoff a few moves ahead. I follow this mantra in my day-to-day life, but (for now) seem incapable of applying this to women. Perhaps it's a pride thing - thinking that a girl should recognise my value and allow me to have her without any games.

It doesn't seem to be working so far, but hoping that some of you guys' success will rub off

[VincentVinturi]

(01-17-2014 04:43 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

One thing in particular rang true with me - Sometimes you need to make strategic moves that require dealing with annoying situations and feelings for the payoff a few moves ahead. I follow this mantra in my day-to-day life, but (for now) seem incapable of applying this to women. Perhaps it's a pride thing - thinking that a girl should recognise my value and allow me to have her without any games.

It doesn't seem to be working so far, but hoping that some of you guys' success will rub off

Yeah I hear you. There's only so much game playing you can take before it feels more like a giant chess game than an opportunity to just explore if there's any chemistry between you and a girl.

It can get very tiring and breed feelings of resentment. That sort of happened to me back in the U.S. But living in Thailand has rejuvenated me. And despite it being easier to score here, it's really grown my game and not just with Asian girls. Might sound paradoxical but guys who have been through this will know what I'm talking about.

The issue I've found with living in the West (I see you're in the U.K.) is that it's hard to distinguish how much of a situation comes down to whether the environment is hostile to normal male-female connection and how much is due to your game/mindsets/personal style.

When I was living in the U.S., I'd beat myself up a lot when I struck out or got nasty reactions from girls. This happened pretty often because I approached a LOT of girls (20+ daily). My ego really took a beating.

Then when I came to Asia, I realized that I hadn't given myself nearly enough credit for my level of game back in the U.S. Because those chicks are fucking nuts! My approach to seduction is low energy, which seems to be more suitable to the calm Asian temperament than to the ADD American girl.

So on the one hand I think you're totally justified in expecting a woman to recognize some baseline value of you as a human being. But expecting anything beyond that is a recipe for endless disappointment.

A lot of the threads in the newbie forum center around unrealistic expectations, I've found. A big part of game is simply learning to manage your expectations of yourself, your expectations of others and others' expectations of you.

[Christian McQueen]

(01-17-2014 05:16 PM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 04:43 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

One thing in particular rang true with me - Sometimes you need to make strategic moves that require dealing with annoying situations and feelings for the payoff a few moves ahead. I follow this mantra in my day-to-day life, but (for now) seem incapable of applying this to women. Perhaps it's a pride thing - thinking that a girl should recognise my value and allow me to have her without any games.

It doesn't seem to be working so far, but hoping that some of you guys' success will rub off

Yeah I hear you. There's only so much game playing you can take before it feels more like a giant chess game than an opportunity to just explore if there's any chemistry between you and a girl.

It can get very tiring and breed feelings of resentment. That sort of happened to me back in the U.S. But living in Thailand has rejuvenated me. And despite it being easier to score here, it's really grown my game and not just with Asian girls. Might sound paradoxical but guys who have been through this will know what I'm talking about.

The issue I've found with living in the West (I see you're in the U.K.) is that it's hard to distinguish how much of a situation comes down to whether the environment is hostile to normal male-female connection and how much is due to your game/mindsets/personal style.

When I was living in the U.S., I'd beat myself up a lot when I struck out or got nasty reactions from girls. This happened pretty often because I approached a LOT of girls (20+ daily). My ego really took a beating.

Then when I came to Asia, I realized that I hadn't given myself nearly enough credit for my level of game back in the U.S. Because those chicks are fucking nuts! My approach to seduction is low energy, which seems to be more suitable to the calm Asian temperament than to the ADD American girl.

So on the one hand I think you're totally justified in expecting a woman to recognize some baseline value of you as a human being. But expecting anything beyond that is a recipe for endless disappointment.

A lot of the threads in the newbie forum center around unrealistic expectations, I've found. A big part of game is simply learning to manage your expectations of yourself, your expectations of others and others' expectations of you.

What part of Asia do you live in?

[jimukr104]

You realize with Wayout banned we won't get to hear for 7 days his Russian adventure? What if he gets laid? or wins a dance contest and gets BIG status!

[Scuba_Instructor]

(01-17-2014 05:16 PM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 04:43 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

One thing in particular rang true with me - Sometimes you need to make strategic moves that require dealing with annoying situations and feelings for the payoff a few moves ahead. I follow this mantra in my day-to-day life, but (for now) seem incapable of applying this to women. Perhaps it's a pride thing - thinking that a girl should recognise my value and allow me to have her without any games.

It doesn't seem to be working so far, but hoping that some of you guys' success will rub off

Yeah I hear you. There's only so much game playing you can take before it feels more like a giant chess game than an opportunity to just explore if there's any chemistry between you and a girl.

It can get very tiring and breed feelings of resentment. That sort of happened to me back in the U.S. But living in Thailand has rejuvenated me. And despite it being easier to score here, it's really grown my game and not just with Asian girls. Might sound paradoxical but guys who have been through this will know what I'm talking about.

The issue I've found with living in the West (I see you're in the U.K.) is that it's hard to distinguish how much of a situation comes down to whether the environment is hostile to normal male-female connection and how much is due to your game/mindsets/personal style.

When I was living in the U.S., I'd beat myself up a lot when I struck out or got nasty reactions from girls. This happened pretty often because I approached a LOT of girls (20+ daily). My ego really took a beating.

Then when I came to Asia, I realized that I hadn't given myself nearly enough credit for my level of game back in the U.S. Because those chicks are fucking nuts! My approach to seduction is low energy, which seems to be more suitable to the calm Asian temperament than to the ADD American girl.

So on the one hand I think you're totally justified in expecting a woman to recognize some baseline value of you as a human being. But expecting anything beyond that is a recipe for endless disappointment.

A lot of the threads in the newbie forum center around unrealistic expectations, I've found. A big part of game is simply learning to manage your expectations of yourself, your expectations of others and others' expectations of you.

It's pretty ironic but I taught scuba diving in Thailand for a few years. Came back to the UK 3 years ago to upskill. I'm now in a far more secure position with better prospects than I was there, but am not getting even 5% of the pussy I got there. I was only ever with farang girls (no Thais, I've never been attracted to them) and they were throwing themselves at me. One night two girls had a fight in a bar over who would get to fuck me (awesome).

Now I'm back in the UK and my value, though higher, is perceived as much lower then when I was a chain-smoking beach bum diving instructor.

Irony abounds

[VincentVinturi]

(01-17-2014 05:40 PM)McQueensPlayboyRules Wrote:  

What part of Asia do you live in?

Thailand.

[Scuba_Instructor]

(01-17-2014 05:58 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 05:16 PM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 04:43 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

One thing in particular rang true with me - Sometimes you need to make strategic moves that require dealing with annoying situations and feelings for the payoff a few moves ahead. I follow this mantra in my day-to-day life, but (for now) seem incapable of applying this to women. Perhaps it's a pride thing - thinking that a girl should recognise my value and allow me to have her without any games.

It doesn't seem to be working so far, but hoping that some of you guys' success will rub off

Yeah I hear you. There's only so much game playing you can take before it feels more like a giant chess game than an opportunity to just explore if there's any chemistry between you and a girl.

It can get very tiring and breed feelings of resentment. That sort of happened to me back in the U.S. But living in Thailand has rejuvenated me. And despite it being easier to score here, it's really grown my game and not just with Asian girls. Might sound paradoxical but guys who have been through this will know what I'm talking about.

The issue I've found with living in the West (I see you're in the U.K.) is that it's hard to distinguish how much of a situation comes down to whether the environment is hostile to normal male-female connection and how much is due to your game/mindsets/personal style.

When I was living in the U.S., I'd beat myself up a lot when I struck out or got nasty reactions from girls. This happened pretty often because I approached a LOT of girls (20+ daily). My ego really took a beating.

Then when I came to Asia, I realized that I hadn't given myself nearly enough credit for my level of game back in the U.S. Because those chicks are fucking nuts! My approach to seduction is low energy, which seems to be more suitable to the calm Asian temperament than to the ADD American girl.

So on the one hand I think you're totally justified in expecting a woman to recognize some baseline value of you as a human being. But expecting anything beyond that is a recipe for endless disappointment.

A lot of the threads in the newbie forum center around unrealistic expectations, I've found. A big part of game is simply learning to manage your expectations of yourself, your expectations of others and others' expectations of you.

It's pretty ironic but I taught scuba diving in Thailand for a few years. Came back to the UK 3 years ago to upskill. I'm now in a far more secure position with better prospects than I was there, but am not getting even 5% of the pussy I got there. I was only ever with farang girls (no Thais, I've never been attracted to them) and they were throwing themselves at me. One night two girls had a fight in a bar over who would get to fuck me (awesome).

Now I'm back in the UK and my value, though higher, is perceived as much lower then when I was a chain-smoking beach bum diving instructor.

Irony abounds

I meant to say, thanks for the reply you gave. Your posts have been very helpful and given me food for thought. Much appreciated.

[samsamsam]

(01-17-2014 05:47 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

You realize with Wayout banned we won't get to hear for 7 days his Russian adventure? What if he gets laid? or wins a dance contest and gets BIG status!

When did this happen, which thread triggered it? Thanks.

[Christian McQueen]

^I called him out. Hilarity ensued.

[Merenguero]

(01-16-2014 08:48 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(01-16-2014 08:41 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(01-16-2014 08:32 PM)commiejoe Wrote:  

Lol, I was kind of hoping to hear Wayout's reasoning. Was confused as to why he would rag on building value.

You're confused? I'm confused as to why he was trying to give any advice based on his past posts.

He's so bad I can't even believe someone like him exists and is not a troll. Funny though but mind bending one person can make so many mistakes and fail so hard with a huge support group behind him.

If I'm reading his posts right, he said that he did pretty well in college, but that now he gets nothing and that he never approaches. It seems like a pathetically easy problem to solve, either start approaching or do online dating.

[El_gato]

Great discussion guys!
I can confirm that waiting for your date - especially if she is running late, has great potential to ruin your frame and put you into beta territory in her eyes. I feel VincentVinturi has the right approach to these matters - always respect yourself and don't hesitate to walk away when being disrespected. Oh and always be a little later than your date especially if she is An 8+ .

[Odin]

(02-02-2014 09:17 AM)El_gato Wrote:  

Great discussion guys!
I can confirm that waiting for your date - especially if she is running late, has great potential to ruin your frame and put you into beta territory in her eyes. I feel VincentVinturi has the right approach to these matters - always respect yourself and don't hesitate to walk away when being disrespected. Oh and always be a little later than your date especially if she is An 8+ .

Never wait on a woman...its one ups-manship from the beginning, i remember once i had to pick a girl at a certain time she wasnt their i waited 5 min .. then drove off, 5 minutes later a phone call .."were are you?" ..told her i just went to get some petrol, ..and drove back 10 min later. When i got there she was outside waiting for me...treat em mean...keep em keen.

[Wayout]

Ok..I would like to respond to why I said the things I said.
OP wrote- "I'm in charge of my life and therefore rarely late. I take pride in being organised" - that's his personality trait,part of his character! He prides himself being on time in being in control of his life. So why change this admirable trait and misrepresent yourself from the very first date...and for a 6! He doesn't even know her! Being late is rude and demonstrates you can't even plan things short term, you are unreliable,disrespectful..etc. Do you like when your friends show up late? Do you think of them as someone of high value after that? Do you really need to play this silly game to appear higher value? - you got anything else there besides that?
I think what we are really protecting here is our own ego. I am all for not letting someone disrespect us and our time,but 5-10 mins?...common! It's perfectly normal for online dating situation for one party to arrive earlier. What kind of a high value man you'd be picking from around a corner,watching if she is there?..lol

[El_gato]

Another trip to the penalty box?

[Scuba_Instructor]

(02-02-2014 02:42 PM)Wayout Wrote:  

Ok..I would like to respond to why I said the things I said.
OP wrote- "I'm in charge of my life and therefore rarely late. I take pride in being organised" - that's his personality trait,part of his character! He prides himself being on time in being in control of his life. So why change this admirable trait and misrepresent yourself from the very first date...and for a 6! He doesn't even know her! Being late is rude and demonstrates you can't even plan things short term, you are unreliable,disrespectful..etc. Do you like when your friends show up late? Do you think of them as someone of high value after that? Do you really need to play this silly game to appear higher value? - you got anything else there besides that?
I think what we are really protecting here is our own ego. I am all for not letting someone disrespect us and our time,but 5-10 mins?...common! It's perfectly normal for online dating situation for one party to arrive earlier. What kind of a high value man you'd be picking from around a corner,watching if she is there?..lol

I hear you. I appreciate the discussion that my initial post caused.

The over-riding lesson that I'm slowly learning is that the actions that breed success in other aspects of your life (business, health, family relationships) are in many ways the opposite of game.

I can't be the first person to think that game is ridiculous and goes against everything that ought to work. That said, I've been trying what ought to work and it doesn't. Even so-called 'good' and 'genuine' girls are full of shit. I'm at that crossroads where I can either start hating women for their behaviour or fully embrace the game.

I'm taking the latter option but it's taking time to become natural.

Apologies if this reply is slightly off-topic but perhaps it resonates with other new members of the forum.

[AneroidOcean]

(02-02-2014 05:20 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

The over-riding lesson that I'm slowly learning is that the actions that breed success in other aspects of your life (business, health, family relationships) are in many ways the opposite of game.

Could you break this down with some supporting detail?

[Scuba_Instructor]

(02-03-2014 07:14 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  

(02-02-2014 05:20 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

The over-riding lesson that I'm slowly learning is that the actions that breed success in other aspects of your life (business, health, family relationships) are in many ways the opposite of game.

Could you break this down with some supporting detail?

I just finished writing a long response to this. But you know what? I've reflected on what I said and I think I was wrong. I was having a bad day and got flaked on by (another) quality lead.

I think I was hitting Stage 4 of Nice Guy Grief: http://www.returnofkings.com/23931/the-f...-guy-grief

Life and game are two separate things. I'm slowly learning that distinction.

I'll quit being a whiny bitch now.

[El_gato]

It's ok man - welcome back to the game

[CJ_W]

. . .Replying to a one month old thread. . .nevermind.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(02-02-2014 05:20 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

(02-02-2014 02:42 PM)Wayout Wrote:  

Ok..I would like to respond to why I said the things I said.
OP wrote- "I'm in charge of my life and therefore rarely late. I take pride in being organised" - that's his personality trait,part of his character! He prides himself being on time in being in control of his life. So why change this admirable trait and misrepresent yourself from the very first date...and for a 6! He doesn't even know her! Being late is rude and demonstrates you can't even plan things short term, you are unreliable,disrespectful..etc. Do you like when your friends show up late? Do you think of them as someone of high value after that? Do you really need to play this silly game to appear higher value? - you got anything else there besides that?
I think what we are really protecting here is our own ego. I am all for not letting someone disrespect us and our time,but 5-10 mins?...common! It's perfectly normal for online dating situation for one party to arrive earlier. What kind of a high value man you'd be picking from around a corner,watching if she is there?..lol

I hear you. I appreciate the discussion that my initial post caused.

The over-riding lesson that I'm slowly learning is that the actions that breed success in other aspects of your life (business, health, family relationships) are in many ways the opposite of game.

I can't be the first person to think that game is ridiculous and goes against everything that ought to work. That said, I've been trying what ought to work and it doesn't. Even so-called 'good' and 'genuine' girls are full of shit. I'm at that crossroads where I can either start hating women for their behaviour or fully embrace the game.

I'm taking the latter option but it's taking time to become natural.

Apologies if this reply is slightly off-topic but perhaps it resonates with other new members of the forum.

"I can't be the first person to think that game is ridiculous and goes against everything that ought to work[/b]. That said, I've been trying what ought to work and it doesn't. Even so-called 'good' and 'genuine' girls are full of shit. I'm at that crossroads where I can either start hating women for their behaviour or fully embrace the game."

No, I disagree. When I applied basic game ideas to work and other relationships not only did they work but they worked better than what they were originally meant for (i.e. women).

In fact, there are ideas in Donald Trump's "The Art of the Deal" that are similar to what Mystery and Style later pushed, like negging. And the idea of approaches works for pitches and sales just like it does when you want to meet women.

Now, as for women being full of shit, I'll agree. Sadly, a lot of men are too. Not all women are. Find people of both sexes who aren't. But you'll have to approach to do that...

[Scuba_Instructor]

(02-04-2014 01:03 PM)El_gato Wrote:  

It's ok man - welcome back to the game

Appreciated. Cheers.

[Scuba_Instructor]

(02-04-2014 10:17 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(02-02-2014 05:20 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

(02-02-2014 02:42 PM)Wayout Wrote:  

Ok..I would like to respond to why I said the things I said.
OP wrote- "I'm in charge of my life and therefore rarely late. I take pride in being organised" - that's his personality trait,part of his character! He prides himself being on time in being in control of his life. So why change this admirable trait and misrepresent yourself from the very first date...and for a 6! He doesn't even know her! Being late is rude and demonstrates you can't even plan things short term, you are unreliable,disrespectful..etc. Do you like when your friends show up late? Do you think of them as someone of high value after that? Do you really need to play this silly game to appear higher value? - you got anything else there besides that?
I think what we are really protecting here is our own ego. I am all for not letting someone disrespect us and our time,but 5-10 mins?...common! It's perfectly normal for online dating situation for one party to arrive earlier. What kind of a high value man you'd be picking from around a corner,watching if she is there?..lol

I hear you. I appreciate the discussion that my initial post caused.

The over-riding lesson that I'm slowly learning is that the actions that breed success in other aspects of your life (business, health, family relationships) are in many ways the opposite of game.

I can't be the first person to think that game is ridiculous and goes against everything that ought to work. That said, I've been trying what ought to work and it doesn't. Even so-called 'good' and 'genuine' girls are full of shit. I'm at that crossroads where I can either start hating women for their behaviour or fully embrace the game.

I'm taking the latter option but it's taking time to become natural.

Apologies if this reply is slightly off-topic but perhaps it resonates with other new members of the forum.

"I can't be the first person to think that game is ridiculous and goes against everything that ought to work[/b]. That said, I've been trying what ought to work and it doesn't. Even so-called 'good' and 'genuine' girls are full of shit. I'm at that crossroads where I can either start hating women for their behaviour or fully embrace the game."

No, I disagree. When I applied basic game ideas to work and other relationships not only did they work but they worked better than what they were originally meant for (i.e. women).

In fact, there are ideas in Donald Trump's "The Art of the Deal" that are similar to what Mystery and Style later pushed, like negging. And the idea of approaches works for pitches and sales just like it does when you want to meet women.

Now, as for women being full of shit, I'll agree. Sadly, a lot of men are too. Not all women are. Find people of both sexes who aren't. But you'll have to approach to do that...

I haven't read the book you mentioned. Sounds like I could learn from it. Cheers for the recommendation.

Got my location and approach plan sorted for this weekend. Guess who's just picked up a copy of Day Bang?

[Menace]

(02-02-2014 05:20 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

I can't be the first person to think that game is ridiculous and goes against everything that ought to work. That said, I've been trying what ought to work and it doesn't. Even so-called 'good' and 'genuine' girls are full of shit.

The real question is: the list of things that you think "ought" to work...how did you come by it? How do you *know* what those things are? I mean they didn't give you a list at the hospital when they saw you were born with a penis and said, hey, do this.

What you are realizing is that what "ought" to work is a bunch of lies you've internalized, and the what does work goes against your (received) belief system.

Girls aren't really full of shit...well they and they aren't. Some are more pleasant than others and have different cultural software, but they are all basically the same. One of the most useful aspects of game is its time saving nature. Think about all the guys out there who spend weeks, months, or years pining over or trying to "get" one specific girl. What a waste of time it is.

[RouteBackwards]

(01-16-2014 06:36 AM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

Do I arrive late?

I'm in charge of my life and therefore rarely late. I take pride in being organised.

I've read in Roosh that being late is a demonstrator of higher value. Problem is, I do have a lot on my plate but manage my time well.

It's an Alpha trait to be in control of your life. So got two pieces of conflicting advice.

Best way forward?

Before a date I usually call up one of my boys, have a comical chat, and speak to him about the upcoming date. I intentionally do this fifteen minutes prior to the date, but I'll usually be down the street or in a cafe near our date spot on the phone with him. I let time slip by, and if the weathers nice, I'll usually do this while smoking a cigar.

Time slips by, and I'm usually fifteen minutes late by now, and things like talking to my boy put me in a talkative, confident mood, and the smoking of cigars are a comfort zone thing, I like the feeling they give me, makes me feel laid back. So the combo of those, gets me not only confident, but fashionably late.

This also kills any first date anxiety, coming in late puts you in a frame of mind that you are not taking this date seriously and that even if it fails, it doesn't matter, you didnt care that much anyways.

I'm not saying take up smoking if that's not you, but I do suggest calling a friend pre-date, and enjoying something that makes you comfortable while waiting. For some that's a nice soda, a beer or in my case, a nice cigar.

[Scuba_Instructor]

(02-05-2014 12:42 PM)Menace Wrote:  

(02-02-2014 05:20 PM)Scuba_Instructor Wrote:  

I can't be the first person to think that game is ridiculous and goes against everything that ought to work. That said, I've been trying what ought to work and it doesn't. Even so-called 'good' and 'genuine' girls are full of shit.

The real question is: the list of things that you think "ought" to work...how did you come by it? How do you *know* what those things are? I mean they didn't give you a list at the hospital when they saw you were born with a penis and said, hey, do this.

What you are realizing is that what "ought" to work is a bunch of lies you've internalized, and the what does work goes against your (received) belief system.

Girls aren't really full of shit...well they and they aren't. Some are more pleasant than others and have different cultural software, but they are all basically the same. One of the most useful aspects of game is its time saving nature. Think about all the guys out there who spend weeks, months, or years pining over or trying to "get" one specific girl. What a waste of time it is.

Very true. I think what's happening is I'm getting rid of the last remnants of the 'nice' guy in me.

What you've highlighted about my belief system is completely true - the post you replied to was a reflection of me hitting the point I needed to hit.

Onwards and upwards.