[Roosh]

Alright so I'm giving this country another go. The first time was to write Bang Ukraine, but this time it's more to study Russian for a future Russia trip once my level is somewhat conversational.

Of course I will pursue the women in my spare time. With this thread I want to start a dialogue to understand the country and the women on a deeper level.

I've been here only five days so far and already I'm picking up on things I missed the first trip, which I'd like to share.

Let's keep this thread free from P4P/gifting/etc. I want this to be more about how we can meet "normal" Ukrainian women. Whether that's even possible can be open for debate.

First Ukrainian thread: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-11338.html

[Roosh]

A Ukrainian women has different tracks according to your nationality.

When you meet a drunk girl in the club, what track do you put her on? Probably the ONS track. When you meet your mother's friend's daughter, you probably put her on a relationship track. The situation determines your approach.

Ukrainian girls do the same thing based on the stereotypes they have on your nationality. Let's go over three nationalities and the track a Ukrainian girl would put you on.

1. United States. She sees you as a mineral deposit to be mined for the long term. So she puts you on the drinks/dinners/gifts track. She assumes that you are a wealthy man, especially if your backstory involves "business." Her expectation for you to buy her things is higher than any other nationality.

For example, a girl who would talk to a Ukrainian man for 30 minutes without expectation of him buying her something would be chafed if you didn't buy her something during that time. (Beware: the smart ones, even though she sees you as a mineral, will insist to pay her way for the first couple of dates so you don't think she sees you as said mineral.)

2. Italy. She sees you as a possible exit from Ukraine because of your EU passport. She will talk about relationships and children more, and make the appearance that she is a good wife. She will make it seem like she only has sex after love.

3. Turkey. She sees you as a way to make a quick buck. She knows why you are in Ukraine and what your brothers have done before you. A quick 100 or 200 euros would be pleasing to her.

These are rough sketches, but the main idea is that her game depends on where you are from. Being from America is a massive DHV, but in a way that DELAYS sex. Saying you're in Ukraine on business and from America means her expectation goes way up. If she happens to have a fast track towards sex, you are not going on it.

When I would tell a girl I'm from the USA, and get pleased when she got excited, I was ignorant that her excitement was not sexual. It was resource based. Suddenly, I dread telling these girls I'm American, because I know that will put me on the slow track. Telling her I'm Turkish will just released her inner prostitute, and saying I"m Spanish or Portuguese, nationalities I can pass for, will not improve the track.

Next Step:

Find a country I can say I'm from where she has no stereotype and that is not known for rich men. My first instinct is Colombia, but this has a drug stereotype (maybe she thinks I'm a drug lord)? Venezuela is probably a good bet since she won't know much about it.

Ideally it would be a country where there is a "romantic lover" type of stereotype that she has never experienced before. The goal is not to impress her, but to avoid being placed on the slow track while making her think there is not so much hope for a future.

[Menace]

But can you not use your mineralness to your advantage? I mean lots of women want a chance at the mine...if she does not show that she knows how to please the mine lord, then maybe another woman would be more suitable?

[el mechanico]

Tell them you're Turkish-American

[Roosh]

All Ukrainian girls can play the game better than you

In war, underestimating your enemy is the greatest cause of defeat. You must understand that ALL Ukrainian girls, even from a barely populated village, knows the game multiple times more than you. I"m 34, I've lived abroad, I'm been with many girls, but an 18-year-old can trip me up. You snooze for one second, and then suddenly there is a bill placed in front of you for a $10 cocktail. You can't just "let loose" and "go with the flow" with these girls, because they will direct that flow to their well while yours is sucked dry.

Don't relax around a Ukrainian girl. You'd be safer sticking a cut finger in a piranha tank. They are very astute at sensing weakness and taking advantage of it, even if it's a small way that merely increases your emotional investment in her. If your mother just died, don't you dare show her how emotionally hurt you are. The support you think you would get will be calculated manipulation.

The mentality in Ukraine, with all people, is "fuck before you get fucked." It's somewhat similar to the Israeli mindset, where you try to get what you want without letting the other party get what they want from you. All Ukrainian women know you want sex, no matter where you are from, so during all your interactions, you must ask yourself, "How can I have sex with this girl while giving her the least of what she wants (resources)."

In her mind, she has a plan for the resource she wants. Maybe it's just one cocktail. Maybe it's sushi. Maybe it's perfume. She is thinking, "How can I get a sushi meal from him without giving him sex?" If you give that sushi and she doesn't have sex with you, you just lost the game.

Game in Ukraine is anarchy, because there is no truth and there are no rules. It does take a darker soul to succeed here, one who gets satisfaction out of manipulating and scamming other people. At the same time it's game in a pure form.

[Roosh]

(06-16-2013 09:51 AM)Menace Wrote:  

But can you not use your mineralness to your advantage? I mean lots of women want a chance at the mine...if she does not show that she knows how to please the mine lord, then maybe another woman would be more suitable?

Get a logistically sound apartment that allows for effortless venue changes. Make sure it's not luxurious. She will notice this when she walks in and your meager wealth will be exposed as a fraud and now you don't get sex.

ANY display of wealth puts you on the slow track. If she will only date you if she showed this wealth... well, guess what... you'll be going on many dates until she's "ready" or feels "love."

[Greek kamaki]

There is huge difference between eastern and western Ukraine. In eastern Ukraine there is what I call Soviet mentality.According to this
1.In every interaction there is a loser and a winner
2.There are no rules governing interactions.Everything depends on the individual (there is no betrayal no honour etc)
3.The person who is the most stubborn usually wins since the other side gives up.
Ukrainian girls in the East display all the above patterns and it is another issue to recognize them and another to cope up with them effectively.

[DirectDanger]

@Roosh

Is their any noticeable difference in the mentality of girls you meet at night clubs/bars compared with a girl you chat up during the day or does this type of behavior you describe go across all the women?

[Sparks123]

If I'm looking for more of an LTR, is Ukraine worth visiting at all? Poland seems like the better bet.

[Greek kamaki]

Ukrainian girls use what we call hot cold game.By this they alternate their mood constantly from the most hot and affectionate to the most cold and aloof and this in minutes.Slavic guys are familiar with that and cope up with it by vodka consumption as a mood equalizer.

However foreigners have problem with that.It is what we call the Ukrainian temper.Supposedely the Ukrainian woman wants to test her man as potential husband how he will be in her bad days.However the constant mood change acts as a melter for the weak foreigner who transforms into an amorphous glue by the constant heat and cold.
The answer to Ukrainian women hot and cold manipulation is slavicization or transforming into a bear feeling and reacting Slav who acts regardless of the common women emotional instabilities.

[The Fantasist]

I have to say that Roosh paints a pretty grim picture of the dating scene in the Ukraine and the mentality of the women there. From my admittedly limited experiences in the Ukraine I would say that the mentality he describes applies to a certain type of Ukrainian girl but is not a net that should be cast over all Ukrainian women. I have met some very good Ukrainian women who were not so transactional in nature. Those girls were not to be found prancing down the Kreschatik or in Fire&Ice but rather working in supermarkets or till girls in suburban restaurants etc. Normal humble girls who probably due to a lack of connections and top tier looks never got the access to corrupting influences and who had humble expectations. I certainly bow down to Roosh's superior knowledge on all things Ukraine so I'm not saying he was wrong in what he wrote in Bang Ukraine but merely that there are 'other types' out there for us but you need decent Russian to meet them consistently.

The original Ukraine thread was epic and threw up a lot of great insights, hope this one will throw up more collective knowledge that we as a forum have gained over the last year and that new members will bring because let's face it, despite the difficulties in the Ukraine, you have to go a long way to find better looking women.

I wish you Udachi with your language training Roosh.

[TheBulldozer]

It begs the question:

Is there ANYONE on the fast track in Ukraine?

[rastignac]

(06-16-2013 09:59 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Ukraine Maxim No. 289: All Ukrainian girls can play the game better than you

Game in Ukraine is anarchy, because there is no truth and there are no rules. It does take a darker soul to succeed here, one who gets satisfaction out of manipulating and scamming other people. At the same time it's game in a pure form.

True. And true.

But, maybe a culture that understands the importance of game is a place for the person who also understands this.

A few points. I am sure I missed a game tenet. It is true I would never buy a drink for a girl in the States. I will not buy dinner.

In Ukraine, I will. The exchange - with my western resources - is really a good one. Ukrainian women expect their men to pay, even their Ukrainian men. Often they can't. Or it is difficult, but the expectation is still there. American women may go dutch, but on a date they are assessing your prospects, going through their mental checklist.

Ukrainian women are resource focused because they want a good life. They have between 18 and 25 to seal a deal that takes care of things.

I believe that a westerner has to play some provider game or they will not get far at all. But it does not have to go that far. It is pretty painless. A lot more painless than playing the head games required to bed western women.

Advice: there is some truth in the three roles. There is something to be said for playing with it and moving between the three.

There is also another angle. Ukrainian women live for the moment. Ukrainian women are very sensual and romantic. Very passionate. Old school dating game works... make a narrative for an evening and play it out.... but usually it wil involve spending some money.

[Menace]

I'm seeing a Ukrainian girl in DC that is the polar opposite of what Roosh describes. HOwever, it is highly likely she is an outlier.

[Greek kamaki]

First of all you need to speak Russian to understand what is going on.Eastern Ukrainian women want either money or marriage.There is no middle ground.
How much money they want depends on their appearance, city and local competition.If the foreigner shows blatant ignorance of the market prices they will take advantage of him this is for sure.
In western Ukraine though many girls want foreign boyfriends without marriage or sponsorship goals.In Kiev you can find every possible variation.When you spend on an Ukrainian girl sex happens extremely fast let's say one hour after first meeting.
Your power in Ukraine is solely dependant on the amount of cash you can push.

[rastignac]

(06-16-2013 10:20 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

Ukrainian girls use what we call hot cold game.By this they alternate their mood constantly from the most hot and affectionate to the most cold and aloof and this in minutes.Slavic guys are familiar with that and cope up with it by vodka consumption as a mood equalizer.

However foreigners have problem with that.It is what we call the Ukrainian temper.Supposedely the Ukrainian woman wants to test her man as potential husband how he will be in her bad days.However the constant mood change acts as a melter for the weak foreigner who transforms into an amorphous glue by the constant heat and cold.
The answer to Ukrainian women hot and cold manipulation is slavicization or transforming into a bear feeling and reacting Slav who acts regardless of the common women emotional instabilities.

Yes!! It took me a while to figure this one out. Now when I am asked by men, "shall we drink"... I know how to answer.

[Greek kamaki]

Also Ukrainian girls are experienced they can tell who is true sponsor who is fake who is true husband and who is fake.They know every bullshit because they do the same from the other side.
The question they ask is "are you into that?Or you get the situation, is that right?"By telling them one two basic words you show that you get the situation correctly.
Russian women are so experienced that by just looking at you they know you are playing the game and react by smiling coming close etc.

[rastignac]

(06-16-2013 09:27 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Alright so I'm giving this country another go. The first time was to write Bang Ukraine, but this time it's more to study Russian for a future Russia trip once my level is somewhat conversational.

Of course I will pursue the women in my spare time. With this thread I want to start a dialogue to understand the country and the women on a deeper level.

I've been here only five days so far and already I'm picking up on things I missed the first trip, which I'd like to share.

Let's keep this thread free from P4P/gifting/etc. I want this to be more about how we can meet "normal" Ukrainian women. Whether that's even possible can be open for debate.

First Ukrainian thread: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-11338.html

Describe a "normal" Ukrainian woman. A normal Ukrainian is looking for a man who will take care of her, with whom they can feel safe as behind a stone wall.

[Greek kamaki]

City is very important.I guess roosh is now in Kiev among the big piranhas.The way to avoid them is to hit targets in the periphery.

[Greek kamaki]

A common mistake the foreigners make is the logical calculation.The foreigner thinks reasonably and adds the sums.For example with 50$ spending on sushi I should at least get a BJ.Far from it.Ukrainian women think holisticslly they dislike at all the small calculating thinking.What matters are the intentions the whole psychic condition.For example if you pay 50 $ but you show the picture of a serious man totally subserved to the needs of his penis she will give you satisfaction. But if you spend 100 $ and want as a logical consequence the BJ because you calculated so you will get nothing.
You can get more with less money provided you are the right person.Ukrainian girls like men with a certain degree of craziness and risk takers.

In any case it is important to give the Ukrainian girl the fraud impression that she has won that she has stripped you of a serious amount of your resources with very few in return while this is not true at all.These girls need to feel they win all the time and we the gentle knights give them this pleasure.

[Eddie Morra]

I think Roosh is generally right in his assessments (even or especially in Kiev). In addition, as a foreigner just visiting here with limited Russian, no real contacts by way of a regular job, your range of possibilities of meeting local women outside of the bar/club scene is even more limited.

I used to work at some of the most popular language schools in Kiev and one of the perks was access to normal or even upper class Ukrainian women. All with good jobs, backgrounds, well travelled, etc. For me this pretty much eliminated the minefield that Roosh is probably experiencing via the club scene, Kreschiatic day game, etc.

Since I only work for myself now (much more lucrative), I am basically cut off from that nice benefit of the language school access. However, by living here, having taught literally hundreds of people over the years, going out casually to a few bars, a club once in a while, running into former students, their friends etc. I still pull, though not like before. Honestly, I don't stay here for the women so much anymore as I do for my work and the freedom and flexible lifestyle it brings. The nice looking women everywhere is more of an extra perk than anything else.

Like I mentioned before on another thread, the Orange Revolution, the dropping of Visa requirements for Western Nationals and the subsequent flood of sex tourists changed the landscape forever I'm afraid.

[Greek kamaki]

From western point of view Ukrainian women are often seen as dysfunctional meaning they lack basic tact in everyday situations.However this lack of fluidity and smoothness the roughness of Ukrainian experience is what gives the place its unique nature.It is like riding a tracter in the most uncultured earth.It is painful for your ass but it is worth the results.
There is no comfort in Ukraine unless you are willing to pay.

[BCZalgyris]

Glad another post on Ukraine exists and some good ideas posted on here. Also one has to throw in on these forums not just the nationality angle but also the sex-tourism angle which I am shocked neither Greek Kamikki nor Roosh has mentioned. Some guys from certain countries are frequently labeled as sex tourists (Turkey and Italy come to mind) even if they claim they r there for business or to visit friends and I personally experienced this at several bars from some local drunk "gopnicks" who overheard me talking about NYC and questioned me about my reasons for visiting UA. Thankfully being both American and also Lithuanian and claiming the latter nationality put me in their good graces.
So I would love to hear from others if they've been negatively stereo-typed during their
recent UA travels? Also, I will be in UA early July this time in Odessa and Simferopol and Yalta to continue my cultural research...hoping to contribute much to this post. Cheers.

[Greek kamaki]

(06-16-2013 01:49 PM)BCZalgyris Wrote:  

Glad another post on Ukraine exists and some good ideas posted on here. Also one has to throw in on these forums not just the nationality angle but also the sex-tourism angle which I am shocked neither Greek Kamikki nor Roosh has mentioned. Some guys from certain countries are frequently labeled as sex tourists (Turkey and Italy come to mind) even if they claim they r there for business or to visit friends and I personally experienced this at several bars from some local drunk "gopnicks" who overheard me talking about NYC and questioned me about my reasons for visiting UA. Thankfully being both American and also Lithuanian and claiming the latter nationality put me in their good graces.
So I would love to hear from others if they've been negatively stereo-typed during their
recent UA travels? Also, I will be in UA early July this time in Odessa and Simferopol and Yalta to continue my cultural research...hoping to contribute much to this post. Cheers.

I am usually classified as Pole by Ukrainian guys so I never faced any problems.Being Greek is a plus in Ukraine since we have common religion and many Ukrainians have relatives in Greece.Greece is a neutral to positive country.Only the recent crisis changed some perceptions about us but it is mostly related to expected wealth.

[Big Nilla]

Greek, are you going to meet up with Roosh this time?