[DVY]

@g-manifesto- Not sure if your trolling, lol, but here goes- No, if she never charged any RVF member, but has charged somebody in the past- I would call her a semi-pro.

Shes maybe playing the long-game or she bangs for money and sometimes bangs for pleasure if she likes the dude.

PS- was bumping Game and he spit this line which sums up street-food/7-11 milk close---
You know I love you like cooked food, I’m a good dude.

Food and milk is a glimpse into normality. Maybe thats what I offer semi-pros/pros....

[RawGod]

This kind of thread reminds me what it's like to arrive in a new culture for the first time.

It took me about 6-12 months to get get tuned into Japanese women. What I mean by tuned in, is to have the ability to rate them in a similar way that Japanese guys do. At first, you meet a slender, feminine woman and you think she's an 7-8. Actually she's a Japanese 5 or 6 - this is her true, local SMV. But after a while you don't pay attention to them and you're only interested in the real 8s.

Also, it takes a while to tell a Japanese slut (girl who puts out a lot) and whore (professional). The tells are different from in the west. A ho is not coked up and tattooed here, and a slut won't have piercings and drink like a fish - in terms of simple examples. But now I can walk down the street and identify pros, sluts and regular girls somewhat more readily - although it's not black and white. (BTW, around 10% of girls here will do some level of P4P at some stage in their lives - not necessarily simple prostitution - there's a lot of shades of gray like snack bar hostesses. 10% means that the chances that the nicely made-up 8 you meet having done some kind of P4P-ish thing - mizu shobai - is very high. I've tested this, by sending texts to girls who have rejected me, straight up asking them to do sex for cash. These are regular girls who I've met in clubs or online. About 20% of them have responded by entering into cash negotiations).

Thailand is different but has some similarities. At first you have no idea about the local social classes, and you might be like a lot of guys who are happy walking down the street with a whore from Isaan on your arm. Then you start to get new eyes and you might buy in to the local view of things - making distinctions about Chinese-Thais, hisos, etc. Of course, maybe you won't care. But until you start getting clued in to the distinctions, you feel a bit lost wondering who the "nice" girls and who the sluts are.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-06-2013 04:53 AM)RawGod Wrote:  

I've tested this, by sending texts to girls who have rejected me, straight up asking them to do sex for cash. These are regular girls who I've met in clubs or online. About 20% of them have responded by entering into cash negotiations).

I'm EXTREMELY interested in seeing what the stats on this would look like for American women. I fully support someone with balls doing a proper experiment in the states.

At the same time, I wonder if your ratio was skewed for the simple fact that your populations sample was not just Japanese women but Japanese women who'd already interacted on a somewhat romantic level with a foreigner. Just a thought.

[RawGod]

(01-06-2013 05:45 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(01-06-2013 04:53 AM)RawGod Wrote:  

I've tested this, by sending texts to girls who have rejected me, straight up asking them to do sex for cash. These are regular girls who I've met in clubs or online. About 20% of them have responded by entering into cash negotiations).

I'm EXTREMELY interested in seeing what the stats on this would look like for American women. I fully support someone with balls doing a proper experiment.

At the same time, I wonder if your ratio was skewed for the simple fact that your populations sample was not just Japanese women but Japanese women who'd already interacted on a somewhat romantic level with a foreigner.

I wouldn't say that my 20% figure of random girls willing to P4P is scientific. But I don't think that the fact that these girls were preselected as "foreigner-friendly" would skew it either way. Here there is no subculture of girls looking for a golden ticket from foreigners. There are a few slutty foreigner groupies ( a few hundred of them hanging around bars in Tokyo is a blip that doesn't even register as a cultural phenomenon in a population this size) and also plain janes who study English and dream of dating a foreigner. But there is no reason for overlap between genuine mizu shobai (female company industry) girls and foreigners. 99% of the sex trade is literally off limits to foreigners.

But my 20% uptake rate on my indecent proposals, though not scientific, I think is compatible with the figure of 10% of girls in their twenties being involved in mizu shobai. This is an actual hardish figure I read from a detailed breakdown somewhere on the web. Around 10 years ago there was a big moral panic that 25% of high school girls were making themselves available for paid dates, after all. I think this is somewhat overblown and/or out of date, but we have lots of data indicating that these cute little Japanese girls are down to make yen. Again, we are talking a rich country, and a sex trade that has zero to do with foreigners. They're blowing salarymen after class to pay their mobile phone bills, then going home to a pampered existence.

That said, the majority of girls don't do this. Some do, while many of the rest are wouldn't do it for a million bucks. Sexual behaviour is oddly variable like that. Two girls at the club, one is a slut with a N of 100 and the other is a virgin with a totally different outlook. Neither is unusual. This goes for the USA as much as Japan.

[PartyTime]

Arrived in Koh Tao this morning. I already like it better than Koh Samui. Its less commercialized compared to Koh Samui (no starbucks, McDonalds, Subway). Less crowded, less dirty, less noisy. But still a happening beach spot.

Nightlife is yet to be seen... I'll update ya'all

[thegmanifesto]

(01-06-2013 01:28 AM)DVY Wrote:  

@g-manifesto- Not sure if your trolling, lol, but here goes- No, if she never charged any RVF member, but has charged somebody in the past- I would call her a semi-pro.

It was a joke.

Kind of a Thailand hooker version of "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

"If a hooker in Thailand always gets shored, is she still a hooker?"

Get it?

After all this time on the forum, I still don't even know what "trolling" is. Is it joking?

-----


Here is what I don't get about all the "shoring" stories:

To me it seems like it would be an uncommon occurrence that would take some skill.

But everyone who goes to Thailand, (even Game beginners) are "shoring" mass amounts of girls.

I mean, the typical Thailand trip report goes like this:

Day 1: Shored 25 girls

Day 2: Shored 33 girls

Day 3: Shored 67 girls

I mean are guys just walking into hooker bars and announcing "I am young, I will not pay, I take suppliments and do squats at 24 hour fitness, come home with me now to my hostel" and 100 hookers will follow this guy out?

I mean, for all the stories, it sounds like there has never been a hooker in Thailand that has made a buck. They all get "shored".

Can you also go into a restaurant in Thailand, and announce: "Look. I am young. I work out. I am ripped. I don't pay for Pad Thai."

And then the waiter will give you free food too?

[RichieP]

g-

It's because the dynamics are so different - the freelancers in clubs arent hardened, seasoned hookers with pimps... they are just young girls, often relatively new in town, looking to make some money. Some of them will even have dayjobs, maybe cashiers or waitresses.

these are normal clubs btw, not the hooker bars with pole dancers and fees for taking them out, etc. People dont generally shore from the latter (although possible)

And in Thailand, being a together Westerner = Status. Our average wage is 5-10x higher, and to them the West is the source of all things cool and modern - music, iphones, characters in hollywood movies, the English language, nightclubs, pop music, fast food, makeup, international companies... everything cool, lucrative and valued in their country is an import from the West. And we are people from that culture.

There are posters everywhere advertising "London Makeup" and every girl wants a Harrods bag - it shows they've been to London or know someone who has. (There's a huge market for fake ones actually, quite amusing - all these thai girls dressed for the beach with their fake plastic Harrods bags...). So by actually being from London or New York or similar, you're just dripping value to them.

You're basically an absolute catch for them. Especially if you're good looking. They can fantasize that they hooked up with the guy from Maroon Five or Justin Timberlake or something. You're the prince who's chosen her as his beauty (even though most western guys there are far from princes, ha)

Just being chosen by a cool western guy is a massive validation hit for them. And remember, they arent seasoned hookers - most of them are young girls without much direction in life. Sure they'll take 2000 baht from a whoremonger, but they'd also love to be chosen by a great guy from this futuristic, cool developed world called "the west", especially if there's an opportunity for a continued relationship.

[OGNorCal707]

(01-06-2013 10:53 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

I mean are guys just walking into hooker bars and announcing "I am young, I will not pay, I take suppliments and do squats at 24 hour fitness, come home with me now to my hostel" and 100 hookers will follow this guy out?

I mean, for all the stories, it sounds like there has never been a hooker in Thailand that has made a buck. They all get "shored".

Can you also go into a restaurant in Thailand, and announce: "Look. I am young. I work out. I am ripped. I don't pay for Pad Thai."

And then the waiter will give you free food too?

[thegmanifesto]

(01-06-2013 11:10 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

g-

It's because the dynamics are so different - the freelancers in clubs arent hardened, seasoned hookers with pimps... they are just young girls, often relatively new in town, looking to make some money. Some of them will even have dayjobs, maybe cashiers or waitresses.

these are normal clubs btw, not the hooker bars with pole dancers and fees for taking them out, etc. People dont generally shore from the latter (although possible)

Ok, that makes a little more sense.

Quote:

And in Thailand, being a together Westerner = Status. Our average wage is 5-10x higher, and to them the West is the source of all things cool and modern - music, iphones, characters in hollywood movies, the English language, nightclubs, pop music, fast food, makeup, international companies... everything cool, lucrative and valued in their country is an import from the West. And we are people from that culture.

I guess I have never been to a country like this. Or I haven't at least since G W Bush was president.

Quote:

You're basically an absolute catch for them. Especially if you're good looking. They can fantasize that they hooked up with the guy from Maroon Five or Justin Timberlake or something. You're the prince who's chosen her as his beauty (even though most western guys there are far from princes, ha)

Just being chosen by a cool western guy is a massive validation hit for them. And remember, they arent seasoned hookers - most of them are young girls without much direction in life. Sure they'll take 2000 baht from a whoremonger, but they'd also love to be chosen by a great guy from this futuristic, cool developed world called "the west", especially if there's an opportunity for a continued relationship.

Ok.

I guess here is my disconnect:

You have guys on the forum having problems on OKstupid and Plenty of Shrimp. You have guys complaining about getting "flaked" on and "text message" Game etc etc

Then when they go to Thailand they instantly transform into these Straight Up, Ice-Cold, Thug Cassanovas?

"No B*tch, I ain't paying you sh*t. I am ripped. I am good looking B*tch! Come back to my hostel on the quick fast! You best be cooking me up some Pad Thai and sweeping my floor! And B*tch you betta have my money!"

It's like a week ago he didn't know how to respond on text and now he is Ron O'neil re-incarnated.

Or is that the thing I am just not getting about Thailand?

Is it just that easy?

Hell, could a guy like me with a little Game, walk into the office of The President of Thailand, and say, "Look. I am a born leader. I wear Custom Suits better than yours. I am taking over the country of Thailand. And no, I am not paying you one red cent".

And he would just hand over the presidency?

Quote:

They can fantasize that they hooked up with the guy from Maroon Five or Justin Timberlake or something.

See, now I am even more confused.

Aren't those guys gay?

[RichieP]

Haha.

Well gmanifesto you're right, it is kinda unbelievable until you go there.

And you do see enough guys who clearly would not be getting laid much at all back home, smashing it up with multiple girls every week.

That said, even the dorks who get laid still have a few things going for them. They're usually persistent, they can usually handle Thai "blowouts" (which usually just consist of the girl pretending you arent there), and they don't get too angry or reactive. Doing so is a big disgrace in Thailand and will repel girls - hotheaded guys do slip up on this.

Funnily enough, sometimes you see "alpha" guys (aussie rugby types) on a party holiday actually pissing girls off and going home empty handed, whereas the calmly persistent nice guy will pull. It's really just that the culture rewards different qualities... being a horny nerd works well there, as opposed to the west

Also, the guys with bad attitudes or complete pussies don't get laid... Thai girls might love Westernness but they girls are pretty aware and wary of the "bad guys" or the real wimps. You do see western guys who can't get laid there.

[DVY]

@g-manifesto- all that remains is for you to check it out. Now is actually a good time to go. Weather is pretty nice.

@Richie-P- you nailed the dynamic. The sexual marketplace is an unforgiving one. When you can walk down the street, and a different girl will smile at you every 2-3 mins, your focus on any 1 girl goes down. Your standards go up, your tolerance for bullshit goes down.

@G-manifesto- these are girls after all, not cold-war/gang-life hardened warrior biz types. They like handbags, purses, AND puppies, chocolates and milk. I think what you see is a reporting bias. There are probably 500 semi-pros and pros that you interact with during the course of a night starting at 9pm until 4.30am. (Random side-walk freelancers who cat-call/try to touch you included in this calculation). The chance that 1 or 2 of them like you as a young dude, is actually quite high.

[thegmanifesto]

(01-06-2013 02:50 PM)DVY Wrote:  

@g-manifesto- all that remains is for you to check it out. Now is actually a good time to go. Weather is pretty nice.

@Richie-P- you nailed the dynamic. The sexual marketplace is an unforgiving one. When you can walk down the street, and a different girl will smile at you every 2-3 mins, your focus on any 1 girl goes down. Your standards go up, your tolerance for bullshit goes down.

@G-manifesto- these are girls after all, not cold-war/gang-life hardened warrior biz types. They like handbags, purses, AND puppies, chocolates and milk. I think what you see is a reporting bias. There are probably 500 semi-pros and pros that you interact with during the course of a night starting at 9pm until 4.30am. (Random side-walk freelancers who cat-call/try to touch you included in this calculation). The chance that 1 or 2 of them like you as a young dude, is actually quite high.

That actually makes more sense too.

Trust me, I believe the "shoring" thing happens. I guess I am a little surprised by the frequency it seems to happen. I have always thought of shoring as something to fall under the "Very Advanced Game Umbrella".

Ok, so one more question:

Do you guys say "Look, I am ripped. I am young. I am in Ketosis. I better looking than Buffoon 5 and Justin TimberFake combined. I am not paying for sh*t. I won't even pay for a band-aid if you have a paper cut. And you best be mopping my floors at the hostel, or I break out the Goon Hand" when you first meet her, or before you take her home?

Because saying that to the girl that is not a hooker, I imagine doesn't go over too well when you first met her.

And if you say it right before you take a girl home that is a hooker, and she says "Ok, bye", you just wasted your whole night.

[Soma]

(01-06-2013 03:51 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(01-06-2013 02:50 PM)DVY Wrote:  

@g-manifesto- all that remains is for you to check it out. Now is actually a good time to go. Weather is pretty nice.

@Richie-P- you nailed the dynamic. The sexual marketplace is an unforgiving one. When you can walk down the street, and a different girl will smile at you every 2-3 mins, your focus on any 1 girl goes down. Your standards go up, your tolerance for bullshit goes down.

@G-manifesto- these are girls after all, not cold-war/gang-life hardened warrior biz types. They like handbags, purses, AND puppies, chocolates and milk. I think what you see is a reporting bias. There are probably 500 semi-pros and pros that you interact with during the course of a night starting at 9pm until 4.30am. (Random side-walk freelancers who cat-call/try to touch you included in this calculation). The chance that 1 or 2 of them like you as a young dude, is actually quite high.

That actually makes more sense too.

Ok, so one more question:

Do you guys say "Look, I am ripped. I am young. I am in Ketosis. I better looking than Buffon 5 and Justin TimberFake combined. I am not paying for sh*t. I won't even pay for a band-aid if you have a paper cut. And you best be mopping my floors at the hostel, or I break out the Goon Hand" when you first meet her, or before you take her home?

Because saying that to the girl that is not a hooker, I imagine doesn't go over too well when you first met her.

And if you say it right before you take a girl home that is a hooker, and she says "Ok, bye", you just wasted your whole night.

"I am in in Ketosis" is sufficient.

[Brosemite]

(01-04-2013 01:58 AM)PartyTime Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 12:52 AM)yb13 Wrote:  

Funny bc I've heard Koh Samui was always a place for couples anyways while some of the other ones are for partygoers.

Lots of couples here, old ones too. But there is tons of nightlife venues, so I think its also a party place. I didnt see too many couples
at the club last night.

(01-04-2013 12:52 AM)yb13 Wrote:  

Plenty of good looking Russian chicks in Pattaya too when I went there, but most of them were with their retired bfs escaping the harsh conditions of Mother Russia living.

No single girls? Groups of girls?

From what I saw in Pattaya, all the Russian girls I saw there were with their bfs. I would welcome the sight of single Russian chicks if I went back there though haha. Maybe I'll just have to tough it out in the cold as I'll have a better chance of meeting single chicks out there.

As for Samui, never been but my personal correspondents said all couples.

From what I'm reading, Koh Tao and Koh Phi Phi are the places to be eh? Haha. I imagine Koh Phi Phi has that tranquil breathtaking scenery that draws the contemplative group of attractive girl packs sort of like Santorini, Greece. Not necessarily there to party but they'll eventually be vulnerable while trying to "find themselves."

[DVY]

Hahaha, g-manifesto you crack me up man.

@Soma- ketosis is probably 13 grade levels of education above what they can speak. =).

@G-manifesto- I would pretend that semi-pro/pros dont exist when interacting but mentally I write-off every girl as a semi-pro/pro until they prove otherwise.

At the back of my mind, I screen for their attitudes.
Who are their friends?
Are they young?
Do they look poor?
Do they look like young, girls out having fun or are they staying in high-traffic areas hunting for customers?
How drunk are they? The drunker they are, the less likely to be pros/semi-pros?
How shy are they? If they are wildly interacting w/every dude that walks by, yea shes working the crowd.... Thais are generally pretty culturally reserved until they accept you.

When I have established this girl is a pro/semi-pro, I pretend like shes a normal girl. I ask her all sorts of questions that profess ignorance w/broken pidgeon english to enhance her understanding- "Are you student?" "What job you work?" "Whos birthday is it?" Establish her ailbi.

Checking her attachment to you. Ill excuse myself to bathroom and come back in 5-20 minutes, after making a lap of the place (aka "looking for my friends"). Is she chatting up every guy that is walking by, or is she eagerly waiting for me. If shes chatting up a guy, does she drop him, the minute I walk nearby.

Extraction- "I am tired/ hungry/ sleepy. Lets go get food."

What is open at 3-4am? Streetfood.

Of course, talk up your favorite streetfood place (which happens to be next to your place of residence). Do not let her chooose one right next to the club/bar. Shell eat and then go hunt for more customers. lol, heard stories of this.

On the walk to the cab/street-food. I start dropping hints about how thailand is great. Ask her deeper about her life as a student/worker. Ask her to teach me thai (I genuinely love languages). Developing the bond

Streetfood- something quick and light. Then bounce her to 7-11 that is 2 mins or less walking from hotel. Here, I evaluate last-stop to ensure I haven't picked up a ladyboy. Really look at her under the fluorescent lighting for Quality Control.

I like keeping my protein up and innoculating my stomach w/ local bacteria. Ill have a unflavored yogurt drink or 0% milk (girls always giggle when I buy this. In Asia, people drink milk breakfast and before going to bed). Buy the girl a water. G-manifesto can pick up cigarettes or wtvr. This is when I go bold and make sure she understands the deal- "I dont pay for girls EVER".

If shes has mock-shcok and then smiles and is ok w/it, I just grab her hand and walk to hotel. If i think the girl is not aware/didnt understand, Ill hit her again w/it before entering the room. "Baby, your cute, but I dont EVER pay for girls. Never will I ever do that."

It took me 3 days to get into hang of this and understand how hard to push w/different types of girls, but I have expsoure to Asia before. Lots of people have issues differentiating and sussing out which girls are which. Even I got fooled a few times by semi-pros. Brought 1 girl back after not screening her hard enough (thought she was a normal girl). She seemed v. hesitant/shy before entering the room. She drops this bomb on me as soon as I take off my shirt- "You pay me make love?" I laughed and told her no. I am going shower. She said ok, I go back to friend. lol. burn.

[Beyond Borders]

You've also got to remember that young foreign males are still a relative minority in Thailand. For every young guy that shores, you've got ten to twenty older guys happy to plop down a buck. Us long-termers are also a minority - even most young guys are just breezing through and happy to pay on a holiday. And for every young guy who "gets it," there are plenty of young guys who don't get it or just don't care - they'll also pay to play.

Then you get a lot of women who are playing long-term game, with 3 - 5 older (and younger) foreign men who are stuck working back in their own countries sending them money every week to help with their bills and to keep them from working in the bars (haha good one). Once they get a decent set-up like this going, they just go out to the clubs, have fun, and fuck guys that they're attracted to. In a case like this, you can bet they'll still take the $30-$60 if they can get it, but if not, they don't sweat it too much. They know the bills are paid (some are even making more than us on the steady income from their sugar daddies).

For many, they know if they fuck enough guys for "free," some chump will eventually fall for them and start "helping them out" from abroad while not in the country.

Here's a quick story about the shit that goes on. When I first got to Samui I was banging one prostitute on a regular basis. She understood a bit of what I said, though there were often miscommunications, but barely spoke a lick of English herself.

But every couple of days or so I'd get some text from her in perfect English. "I want to make love with you." "I'm missing you right now." "I want to see you." If I wasn't busy, I'd go bang. This was one of the hotter girls I banged over there, easily - hottest slut I ever saw in the after-hours clubs in Lamai, at least by whiteboy standards - so I kept going back for more. But being new in town still, it was really stumping me why our texts were such perfect English when she didn't speak it in person. I decided that she must just be too shy to speak it in person.

So one morning we're lying in bed and I'd been rattling off to her in English all night while drunk, convinced she actually understands me and is holding out. I kept doing it in the morning and she kept getting frustrated and demanding, "Why?! Why? I no speak English. No understand." It was probably even more guttaral than that, with some Thai words thrown in, but I understood the gist of it.

"Nah, nah, I know you speak English," I said. I pulled out her texts and showed her one or two. "Mai tawng ai (Don't be shy)."

After heckling her about it for a bit, she went over to her dresser and pulled out this notebook and opened it up for me, acting embarrassed. Inside the notebook, she had all her English/Thai translation notes written down. She had apparently been just copying them down from the notebook as she texted, which explained why she often didn't reply to my perfect-English responses (they weren't in her book).

I sat there looking through it, but I still didn't see any of the kind of shit she was sending me via text. It was all basic shit like "How are you doing" and "I'd like to buy some cheese" type shit.

From some sudden impulse, I took it out of her hands and flipped right to the back. She started freaking out and trying to grab it back, having a near panic attack. I just held it out of her reach, grinning, wrestled her down, and told her not to worry and that I didn't care. After her reaction, I had to see what the big deal was.

After a bit of this, she finally settled down.

I opened to the back again, and in the last pages were all the "bargirl" translations someone had written down for her to romantically seduce the men she was fucking.

Some of the text she'd sent me were there, and other stuff like:
"I think I'm falling in love with you."
"My heart hurts with you gone."

I don't remember much of what was there, but it was all shit like that. Some other phrases about needing money because her sister was sick and shit like that, if I remember correctly.

In other words, it was her bargirl English phrase guide. lol

I sat there reading through and picking on her a little bit and then she acted like she was mad. After I reassured her that it was no big deal for me and that I'd never be a customer anyways, she lightened up. She even showed me pictures of her Thai boyfriend, who she was in love with (he lived in her hometown still), and a few white guys who were sending her money and taking care of her.

One was a middle-aged guy who wouldn't be able to get a date to save his life - but she insisted she loved him and thought he was handsome because he had a big nose and he "take care me." Another was a younger, normal-looking dude who also obviously thought she was some kind of win.

I banged her off and on the whole time I lived on the island but every once in a while you'd show up to the club and she'd be there with some other guy, usually older but not always. One time I even ate at the same table with her in a street restaurant while her and the older guy from the pics sat across from me. lol You could tell he really was in love with this girl, but she was so far out of his league it really wasn't that surprising. I had some other slut with me and even though she was with this guy she sat there making jealous comments the whole time, acting mad at me, and this guy was so inexperienced with women he hadn't a clue.

Any time I saw her out with her customers, I'd keep my distance and hit on other girls. I think she was developing a crush - a lot of them do, just like any girl fucking the same guy on a regular basis - because I'd start catching her glaring at me and sometimes she'd ditch her customer by the end of the night to come hang out with me. I'd also get random late-night texts and all kinds of head games you'd get from a fuck-buddy who was getting serious.

Real point being that these girls pick and choose their nights to give it up for free, and most have "passive income" coming from guys overseas they milk for rent money and money to help buy grandma a new water buffalo and some chickens. It's a pretty solid scam they've got going if they're any good at it, and if they need a few extra bucks they pick up an old guy and get it. And even thought they're heartless working girls, they like to bang young guys, just like any girl their age does, and they even develop feelings.

If I was to be completely honest, it's not that hard to eventually feel sorry for them and the life they're handed. But if you're smart, you also see how it poisons them, and you watch yourself.

As a young guy living in a tourist area for a while, you simply accept it for what it is and don't take it personally. And if you're not a dick about it, they'll keep getting in touch with you. Hell, if they see you enough times, it's like you've all got this big scam going together because you "get it" - if you were devoid of morals, it probably wouldn't be hard to make some extra cash helping them with their online love letters and other sugar daddy scams. Constant free pussy on a foreign island and steady cash to pay for it - in another reality it wouldn't be the worst gig in the world...

And when they're busy, there'll always be some other girl having a slow night or just out to have some fun. Or tourists, which I argue again are a better deal for most westerners.

Here's yet another thing about the prostitutes. Many get paid even if they don't fuck! How's that? Well, the ladybars that employ women don't actually require the women to bang customers who barfine them. Sure, it's somewhat expected by some places, but a lot of ladybars make it clear that a bar fine means the lady gets released from her work duties and gets to go hang out with you. So if a guy bar fines her, she might go out with him for a couple hours and watch after him all night, but it doesn't mean she's putting out, even though she already got her commission. She won't make that extra dough, but she's already made something at least, and in the end it's really up to her.

And then I'm sure you get plenty of cases where she goes directly back to the guy's room, fucks him, goes home to wash the puss (if even), and heads out to meet up with her friends at the club, which in a tourist area may stay open until 5 or even 8 am.

Look, don't think you'll show up and every single white guy is walking into the club pulling out hot prostitutes to bring home. Even most of these prostitutes are ugly - just as the majority of women in any given population tend to be ugly - as mentioned in all the Thailand threads, a lot of guys are so thrown off by the amount of easy pussy and the exotic look that they over-rate the women quite a bit. And you've also got to remember that most of these easy girls and hookers in the bars are dark-skinned Isaan women. To Thai people, these women are the bottom of the barrel, but to most white men they are the cream of the crop.

After you live there for a while, you tend to side with the Thais on this, for better or worse. It is what it is.

It's a complicated, confusing world, G. I wouldn't worry about it too much as I really don't see it being your scene. Just be aware of how rampant it is in any tourist-centric bar situation if you do go.

I advise getting away from the tourist scene completely if you want the real thailand potential. Most never do.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-06-2013 03:51 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(01-06-2013 02:50 PM)DVY Wrote:  

@g-manifesto- all that remains is for you to check it out. Now is actually a good time to go. Weather is pretty nice.

@Richie-P- you nailed the dynamic. The sexual marketplace is an unforgiving one. When you can walk down the street, and a different girl will smile at you every 2-3 mins, your focus on any 1 girl goes down. Your standards go up, your tolerance for bullshit goes down.

@G-manifesto- these are girls after all, not cold-war/gang-life hardened warrior biz types. They like handbags, purses, AND puppies, chocolates and milk. I think what you see is a reporting bias. There are probably 500 semi-pros and pros that you interact with during the course of a night starting at 9pm until 4.30am. (Random side-walk freelancers who cat-call/try to touch you included in this calculation). The chance that 1 or 2 of them like you as a young dude, is actually quite high.

That actually makes more sense too.

Trust me, I believe the "shoring" thing happens. I guess I am a little surprised by the frequency it seems to happen. I have always thought of shoring as something to fall under the "Very Advanced Game Umbrella".

Nah, not in Asia.

Quote:

Ok, so one more question:

Do you guys say "Look, I am ripped. I am young. I am in Ketosis. I better looking than Buffoon 5 and Justin TimberFake combined. I am not paying for sh*t. I won't even pay for a band-aid if you have a paper cut. And you best be mopping my floors at the hostel, or I break out the Goon Hand" when you first meet her, or before you take her home?

Because saying that to the girl that is not a hooker, I imagine doesn't go over too well when you first met her.

And if you say it right before you take a girl home that is a hooker, and she says "Ok, bye", you just wasted your whole night.

If you say it to a woman you meet in a tourist bar that is frequented by hookers, they have no right to get upset, and 99% of the time they will not.

I usually simply say, "I don't pay for lady" just before it's time to go home. Sometimes they'll "act" offended that you expected a bang was coming, but that's it. Mostly they'll say "never mind" or "dont' worry" or "it's okay" or "mai bpen rai" or "mai tawng huang." Other times they'll feign ignorance or change the subject.

Don't get me wrong - sometimes they do care. Sometimes they too feel like they've wasted their night if you wait too long to say it. After all, they're working. Sometimes it's best to get it out of the way early and see if they keep hanging out or not.

So early in the night, especially if they approach me, I make it clear I'm not there looking for a girl. If they keep coming around and we're having fun and it seems like we're shacking up, I let them know I don't pay for girls.

They can take it how they want. The non-pros in these bars know the score.

As a caveat, I would never say this to a woman in a mainstream Thai club or bar. Then again, your odds of pulling a woman on the first night from such a venue are far more slim, especially outside of BKK.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-06-2013 02:50 PM)DVY Wrote:  

@G-manifesto- these are girls after all, not cold-war/gang-life hardened warrior biz types. They like handbags, purses, AND puppies, chocolates and milk. I think what you see is a reporting bias. There are probably 500 semi-pros and pros that you interact with during the course of a night starting at 9pm until 4.30am. (Random side-walk freelancers who cat-call/try to touch you included in this calculation). The chance that 1 or 2 of them like you as a young dude, is actually quite high.

This Exactly!

[Soma]

(01-06-2013 04:11 PM)yb13 Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 01:58 AM)PartyTime Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 12:52 AM)yb13 Wrote:  

Plenty of good looking Russian chicks in Pattaya too when I went there, but most of them were with their retired bfs escaping the harsh conditions of Mother Russia living.

No single girls? Groups of girls?

From what I saw in Pattaya, all the Russian girls I saw there were with their bfs. I would welcome the sight of single Russian chicks if I went back there though haha. Maybe I'll just have to tough it out in the cold as I'll have a better chance of meeting single chicks out there.

Seconded. I went to Pattaya looking for available Russian girls but didn't find any, just couples and families.

(01-06-2013 04:11 PM)yb13 Wrote:  

From what I'm reading, Koh Tao and Koh Phi Phi are the places to be eh? Haha. I imagine Koh Phi Phi has that tranquil breathtaking scenery that draws the contemplative group of attractive girl packs sort of like Santorini, Greece. Not necessarily there to party but they'll eventually be vulnerable while trying to "find themselves."

Nah, Phi Phi is a total party island. Everyone goes to take a day trip to the beach from The Beach and party all night. "Tranquil breathtakinging scenery" was finished a decade ago. In all the places I've been in Thailand, Phi Phi has by far the most attractive foreign girls (haven't been to the east coast islands, though.) The relatively high prices for accommodation - at least $50/night for something passable - keep out all the scuzzy backpacker riff-raff that you see around the rest of the country. Coming from Phuket I was pleasantly surprised at the quality.

[DVY]

@Beyond Borders- One of the girls was telling me stories about random shit when I asked....some of this blew me away. I really stopped looking at women the same way. These girls are maybe 22-23 (30+ for the older ones) and have so much grime in their lives. Pussy is just an earning tool end of the day. As with kids, goodness.

1 girl would tell me how her ugly(mediocre by western standards) friend would fuck guys w/out condoms to get pregnant and then take pictures of the kids and send it to the dad in foreign country. Dads would send 300 buxs/a month. She had 4 kids. From what I heard, she was pulling in excess of 30k baht/month, and milking mutiple dudes and sometimes even multiple dudes for the same kid. This is on top of the money she earned doing massage work/soapy endings.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-06-2013 05:15 PM)DVY Wrote:  

1 girl would tell me how her ugly(mediocre by western standards) friend would fuck guys w/out condoms to get pregnant and then take pictures of the kids and send it to the dad in foreign country. Dads would send 300 buxs/a month. She had 4 kids.

haha You gotta hand it to her - that money probably won't be drying up with her looks....If I was her, I'd shoot for 4 X that amount per baby's daddy. Shit, if she knew anything about child support laws she'd be a rich woman.

(01-06-2013 05:12 PM)Soma Wrote:  

(01-06-2013 04:11 PM)yb13 Wrote:  

From what I'm reading, Koh Tao and Koh Phi Phi are the places to be eh? Haha. I imagine Koh Phi Phi has that tranquil breathtaking scenery that draws the contemplative group of attractive girl packs sort of like Santorini, Greece. Not necessarily there to party but they'll eventually be vulnerable while trying to "find themselves."

Nah, Phi Phi is a total party island. Everyone goes to take a day trip to the beach from The Beach and party all night. "Tranquil breathtakinging scenery" was finished a decade ago. In all the places I've been in Thailand, Phi Phi has by far the most attractive foreign girls (haven't been to the east coast islands, though.) The relatively high prices for accommodation - at least $50/night for something passable - keep out all the scuzzy backpacker riff-raff that you see around the rest of the country. Coming from Phuket I was pleasantly surprised at the quality.

I've heard a lot of good things about Koh Lanta for amazing scenery, epic diving, and quality foreign women.

[Soma]

(01-06-2013 04:51 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Then you get a lot of women who are playing long-term game, with 3 - 5 older (and younger) foreign men who are stuck working back in their own countries sending them money every week to help with their bills and to keep them from working in the bars (haha good one). Once they get a decent set-up like this going, they just go out to the clubs, have fun, and fuck guys that they're attracted to. In a case like this, you can bet they'll still take the $30-$60 if they can get it, but if not, they don't sweat it too much. They know the bills are paid (some are even making more than us on the steady income from their sugar daddies).

For many, they know if they fuck enough guys for "free," some chump will eventually fall for them and start "helping them out" from abroad while not in the country.

Totally squares with my experience. I was hanging out with a group of girls like this for a while and they were a ton of fun. They had so much money they didn't know what to do with it and would sometimes compete with each other to bang the highest value guys at night - DJ's, minor celebrities, me, etc. (One girl had two iPhones. When I asked her why her response was: "Two better than one." Can't argue with that logic.) Also, this may seem initially counterintuitive, but the more attractive such a girl is the more likely she'll bang guys she's actually attracted to for fun. This is because it's way easier for her to get clueless guys to send her money from abroad then an uglier girl, who has to work her ass off (pun intended) for a pittance. So it can actually be easier to pull/shore the more attractive freelancers than the less attractive ones.

[Soma]

(01-06-2013 05:15 PM)DVY Wrote:  

@Beyond Borders- One of the girls was telling me stories about random shit when I asked....some of this blew me away. I really stopped looking at women the same way. These girls are maybe 22-23 (30+ for the older ones) and have so much grime in their lives. Pussy is just an earning tool end of the day. As with kids, goodness.

When I was training muay thai I got to know a couple of the cutest bargirls (uniquely, not as a "customer") at a bar that all the fighters would hang out at. These two were 18 and looked at most 16. Now I've seen and done some pretty dirty stuff, but the way these girls would talk to each other and to me even made me almost blush. They've definitely experienced way more messed up stuff at 18 than a Western girl could even imagine in a lifetime. It's a hell of a way to make a living.

[PartyTime]

(01-06-2013 05:52 PM)Soma Wrote:  

They've definitely experienced way more messed up stuff at 18 than a Western girl could even imagine in a lifetime.

What kinda stuff?

[WEDO]

(01-06-2013 04:59 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(01-06-2013 03:51 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(01-06-2013 02:50 PM)DVY Wrote:  

@g-manifesto- all that remains is for you to check it out. Now is actually a good time to go. Weather is pretty nice.

@Richie-P- you nailed the dynamic. The sexual marketplace is an unforgiving one. When you can walk down the street, and a different girl will smile at you every 2-3 mins, your focus on any 1 girl goes down. Your standards go up, your tolerance for bullshit goes down.

@G-manifesto- these are girls after all, not cold-war/gang-life hardened warrior biz types. They like handbags, purses, AND puppies, chocolates and milk. I think what you see is a reporting bias. There are probably 500 semi-pros and pros that you interact with during the course of a night starting at 9pm until 4.30am. (Random side-walk freelancers who cat-call/try to touch you included in this calculation). The chance that 1 or 2 of them like you as a young dude, is actually quite high.

That actually makes more sense too.

Trust me, I believe the "shoring" thing happens. I guess I am a little surprised by the frequency it seems to happen. I have always thought of shoring as something to fall under the "Very Advanced Game Umbrella".

Nah, not in Asia.

Quote:

Ok, so one more question:

Do you guys say "Look, I am ripped. I am young. I am in Ketosis. I better looking than Buffoon 5 and Justin TimberFake combined. I am not paying for sh*t. I won't even pay for a band-aid if you have a paper cut. And you best be mopping my floors at the hostel, or I break out the Goon Hand" when you first meet her, or before you take her home?

Because saying that to the girl that is not a hooker, I imagine doesn't go over too well when you first met her.

And if you say it right before you take a girl home that is a hooker, and she says "Ok, bye", you just wasted your whole night.

If you say it to a woman you meet in a tourist bar that is frequented by hookers, they have no right to get upset, and 99% of the time they will not.

I usually simply say, "I don't pay for lady" just before it's time to go home. Sometimes they'll "act" offended that you expected a bang was coming, but that's it. Mostly they'll say "never mind" or "dont' worry" or "it's okay" or "mai bpen rai" or "mai tawng huang." Other times they'll feign ignorance or change the subject.

Don't get me wrong - sometimes they do care. Sometimes they too feel like they've wasted their night if you wait too long to say it. After all, they're working. Sometimes it's best to get it out of the way early and see if they keep hanging out or not.

So early in the night, especially if they approach me, I make it clear I'm not there looking for a girl. If they keep coming around and we're having fun and it seems like we're shacking up, I let them know I don't pay for girls.

They can take it how they want. The non-pros in these bars know the score.

As a caveat, I would never say this to a woman in a mainstream Thai club or bar. Then again, your odds of pulling a woman on the first night from such a venue are far more slim, especially outside of BKK.

Just have to say that the wide scale prostitution scene and attitudes of the women you are describing seem to be somewhat surreal to say the least. And I have seen a lot.

In Colombia, a bar girl is not someone I would trust in my home.....They can very pleasant and fun loving on the outside....but it takes a certain amount of duress in a Colombiana's life before she gets to the point where she is willing to fuck just about any guy that can come up with a certain amount of cash. And once they have crossed that tipping point they are usually fairly messed up.....not much self respect going on.

Could be that Thai women aren't burdened with Christian values and they don't really have to come to some torturous point in their lives before they decide it's OK to sell their ass and are somehow more well adjusted than the bar girls in other parts of the world....which would seem to be the case if semi-pros are actually going home with you for free on the outside chance you'll make them your girlfriend, wife or take care of them with monthly installments. jajaja

Have to chuckle just thinking about how hard it would be to convince even a semi-pro in Colombia that you really wanted her to be your girlfriend or wife....even if she really, really liked you....but then again there aren't droves of American guys here shacking up with hookers....I think you guys shoring semi-pros should give some thanks to the old broken down gringos that made all that possible. jajaja

Anyway, I hope you can understand why some of us are having such a hard time understanding the situation on the ground in the big cities of Thailand.

For me the idea of trying to talk a semi-pro (who I assume really needs money) to go home with me for free doesn't seem like a very enjoyable way to spend an evening. The semi-pros in Colombia always seem to have a slight air of desperation about them that must be completely devoid in their Thai counterparts.

Would be interested in your thoughts on why the P4P scene in Thailand is so prevalent and different than other parts of the world. Just so the rest of us can some how make sense of it.