[j r]

It is interesting to see that so many men don't really mind waiting until the second or third date for sex, as long as they know that things are moving in that direction. Even among players, the push for the first-date bang is a reaction to female behavior and not the cause of it. As I said, I was very happy with my two-date routine. I'd much rather just "let it happen" on the second date than have to jump all sorts of logistical hurdles and push through last minute resistance and feelings of sluttyness on the first date. Generally, it makes for sex that is much less inhibited.

Oh well. I guess we make do with the situations that we are given.

(09-03-2012 11:59 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

What puzzles me is how we're all in agreement on this, but no one else is talking about it or acknowledging it. You still see people getting into relationships of course. So how do you square the two - or simply, who are the boyfriends of cute girls? If 'the second date is dead,' are they milking their social circle for boyfriends, where girls are less flakey? Are they making boyfriends out of the players who bang them on one night stands or the first date?

I think what we are witnessing is very tip of the spear. I've been playing the field for close to fifteen years and been actively aware of game for about eight. It still took me a certain amount of time to process this kind of change and realize that I need to alter my behavior accordingly. Most people still date traditionally (outside of hookup culture) and most guys just don't realize that they're only getting one date when ten years ago they would have gotten two or three before the girl stopped answering his calls. Girls still pick the guys they are attracted to; they're just giving each guy less of a chance to build that attraction.

[el mechanico]

Basil, where I live everyone talks to you. They never shut up. In Connecticut not so much. In Cali not so much either but you hope they don't. Example: I was on the trolly bus heading to Clearwater beach Friday night with my Dominican girl. A group of girls loaded onto the thing and sat all around us and started asking questions and they were mixing drinks from water bottles filled with Vodka. They said they were part of some cult that worships the moon and they were going to get some weed and go howl at the moon on the beach and invited us. We got off at their stop and followed them and joined the group. My date was like WTF? These girls were all over the place age wise 20 to 40. I didn't see any of them updating their status.

I still do believe that most people get together through work. Go meet girls at their jobs.

[Tuthmosis]

(09-03-2012 12:56 PM)j r Wrote:  

It is interesting to see that so many men don't really mind waiting until the second or third date for sex, as long as they know that things are moving in that direction. Even among players, the push for the first-date bang is a reaction to female behavior and not the cause of it.

This is further proof that the game made the player, not the other way around. And, it's been this way for hundreds of thousands of years. Successful men are adaptable creatures, who use their keen powers of social observation to calibrate their method for acquiring sexual partners.

We're part of a very tiny percentage of men who can even discern such a subtle shift in dating practice. Think about it. Small change in women's expectations and procedures--in just five, or so, years--have resulted in adjustments in all of our dating practices. That's astounding.

Do you think the average man has observed this, never mind re-calibrated the way he approaches the opposite sex? Of course not. These guys are still throwing rocks at trees hoping to knock out a bird. Once in a while, one of them will succeed.

We've invented sling shots.

[Divorco]

(09-03-2012 09:23 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Ten years ago I was excited at going on dates with DC girls and getting laid by the third date.

(09-02-2012 07:05 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

I remember ... Before ... if things ended in a make-out, you didn't even need to push for the bang. There was no reason to push for the bang, unless you were mad horny. There was an ease to the whole thing once you had a verified connection (a kiss, for instance). It was unheard-of to not get a second date if the first one went well. In fact, as long as you kept pushing the ball upfield, you knew you'd get another "first down." The three-date rule prevailed, and you were satisfied with a second- or third-date bang.

Nowadays, I go for the first-date bang even when I'm not that horny, with full knowledge that if I don't, I'm going to get flaked on. Even when I do score a first-date bang--and put it down like champ--I might still get flaked on.

This is a vindicating revelation for me. I was out of the dating market while married. In the "old days" you established a connection on the first date, cemented sexual chemistry on the second date, and casually seduced on the third date. The woman would then date you steadily. Faster sex actually risked ruining the connection.

Tuthmosis reprimanded me for suggesting postponing sex until the third date. Old-school post-sex flakes happened because of rushed sex. Now the opposite happens.

Quote:

Even when I do score a first-date bang--and put it down like champ--I might still get flaked on.

Yes, I thought it happened because rushed sex precluded a solid connection, but now appreciate that some women would flake regardless.

Technology has lowered the cost of social interaction, so men approach more women. Women are inundated with date offers and don't value them. It has become more of a numbers game, where you must approach and date many women opportunistically.

[Neo]

(09-03-2012 11:59 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

You still see people getting into relationships of course. So how do you square the two - or simply, who are the boyfriends of cute girls? If 'the second date is dead,' are they milking their social circle for boyfriends, where girls are less flakey?

I'll expand a bit on the discussion, I think it's pretty interesting. I agree that most people are forming relationships from social circle or being introduced through friends and aquaintances. The downside to this is if and when things go wrong everybody knows. This is what I love about day and night game usually you don't have common friends. I've had several girls I've hooked up with online tell me that they don't think that online dating is 'real.' That they don't care about flaking or not calling the guy back because there are no social repercussions for doing so.

[Basil Ransom]

El mech, sounds about right - rednecks tend to be slightly crazy and talk to whoever is around.

Tuth, def agree about the 'game made the player,' great point. I think the reason why most guys don't catch on are two:
1. They don't go fishing enough. If you fished daily, and something happened to the local fish population, you'd notice, even if it was pretty small. But if you go once every three weeks, any changes you suspect you'd just chalk up to chance.
2. Girls have monopolized the conversation about dating, they are nearly always the 'dating gurus,' self-appointed of course. And for that reason, the talk about dating is always wildly irrational and untethered from reality. Any guy who is not explicitly a player or PUA gets wrapped into feminine modes of thinking when he talks about dating, instead of treating it objectively.

I've long felt that it's very challenging to get optimum pussy at a bar - say you could hold down at best an 8.5 in a relationship - good luck getting that in a bar, even if you seriously want to date her. Meeting her through social circle raises your range by 0.5-1 points, perhaps.

The funny thing with meeting girls through work is that most of the guys they meet there are so lame it's easy to look good. But a girl's standards wildly climb when she gets in a bar, or worse, online.

[scorpion]

The combination of facebook, smartphones and online dating has significantly changed women's attitudes toward dating over the past decade. Because of these recent technologies, women are essentially in a 24/7 state of receiving attention from men. Her beta orbiters and potential lovers are blowing up her facebook wall and texting her constantly, and she can log in to her online dating profile from her phone for a quick ego boost to see all the men who want to fuck her.

This means that when you're on a date with her, you're not really on a date with her; you're on a date with her and every other dude on her radar at the time. Not only must your game be strong enough to surmount her natural defenses, it must set you head and shoulders above every other guy she's talking to at the moment. You basically have to blow a chick away with the power of your game (or status, or looks, or some other massive DHV) to keep her on the hook past the first date. The typical 7-8 in her prime is getting bombarded with male attention, and will think nothing of writing you off in favor of "the next guy" unless you clearly knock her socks off with a powerful masculine vibe that shakes her out of her smartphone-induced attention-whoring stupor.

[Tuthmosis]

^I love when newbies come in spitting acid like this. Co-signed on every point.

[Basil Ransom]

(09-03-2012 04:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The combination of facebook, smartphones and online dating has significantly changed women's attitudes toward dating over the past decade. Because of these recent technologies, women are essentially in a 24/7 state of receiving attention from men. Her beta orbiters and potential lovers are blowing up her facebook wall and texting her constantly, and she can log in to her online dating profile from her phone for a quick ego boost to see all the men who want to fuck her.

This means that when you're on a date with her, you're not really on a date with her; you're on a date with her and every other dude on her radar at the time. Not only must your game be strong enough to surmount her natural defenses, it must set you head and shoulders above every other guy she's talking to at the moment. You basically have to blow a chick away with the power of your game (or status, or looks, or some other massive DHV) to keep her on the hook past the first date. The typical 7-8 in her prime is getting bombarded with male attention, and will think nothing of writing you off in favor of "the next guy" unless you clearly knock her socks off with a powerful masculine vibe that shakes her out of her smartphone-induced attention-whoring stupor.

I have a different take. Far more important than having the best game is being there. That's the whole benefit of a social circle. Be there in the right time and the right place, and getting laid is easy peasy. Great logistics - alcohol, isolation, proximity to a place to fuck - trumps great game. You have to have game, but you're only really competing with the other dudes immediately available nearby. If you can take her out of her reality long enough to fuck her, then you may hang on to her. What we're saying in this thread is you have the initial meet and one date to do that, and that's about it.

If girls said, 'ok I'm going to fuck and date the absolute coolest, hottest dude I can find,' you wouldn't see cute girls dating herbs. Girls are rewarding guys for being connected to them.

Modern girls are triple the whore they are on paper. For every guy they've slept with, there are two they didn't, but would have if the logistics were perfect. Who she sleeps with, in a sense, is fucking random. Can a girl like that be called anything but a whore?

[Merenguero]

(09-03-2012 04:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The combination of facebook, smartphones and online dating has significantly changed women's attitudes toward dating over the past decade. Because of these recent technologies, women are essentially in a 24/7 state of receiving attention from men. Her beta orbiters and potential lovers are blowing up her facebook wall and texting her constantly, and she can log in to her online dating profile from her phone for a quick ego boost to see all the men who want to fuck her.

This means that when you're on a date with her, you're not really on a date with her; you're on a date with her and every other dude on her radar at the time. Not only must your game be strong enough to surmount her natural defenses, it must set you head and shoulders above every other guy she's talking to at the moment. You basically have to blow a chick away with the power of your game (or status, or looks, or some other massive DHV) to keep her on the hook past the first date. The typical 7-8 in her prime is getting bombarded with male attention, and will think nothing of writing you off in favor of "the next guy" unless you clearly knock her socks off with a powerful masculine vibe that shakes her out of her smartphone-induced attention-whoring stupor.

[I'mWaitingForTheMan]

(09-03-2012 05:56 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(09-03-2012 04:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The combination of facebook, smartphones and online dating has significantly changed women's attitudes toward dating over the past decade. Because of these recent technologies, women are essentially in a 24/7 state of receiving attention from men. Her beta orbiters and potential lovers are blowing up her facebook wall and texting her constantly, and she can log in to her online dating profile from her phone for a quick ego boost to see all the men who want to fuck her.

This means that when you're on a date with her, you're not really on a date with her; you're on a date with her and every other dude on her radar at the time. Not only must your game be strong enough to surmount her natural defenses, it must set you head and shoulders above every other guy she's talking to at the moment. You basically have to blow a chick away with the power of your game (or status, or looks, or some other massive DHV) to keep her on the hook past the first date. The typical 7-8 in her prime is getting bombarded with male attention, and will think nothing of writing you off in favor of "the next guy" unless you clearly knock her socks off with a powerful masculine vibe that shakes her out of her smartphone-induced attention-whoring stupor.

I have a different take. Far more important than having the best game is being there. That's the whole benefit of a social circle. Be there in the right time and the right place, and getting laid is easy peasy. You have to have game, but you're only really competing with the other dudes immediately available nearby. And even they don't figure in much if they're not talking to her.

If girls said, 'ok I'm going to fuck and date the absolute coolest, hottest dude I can find,' you wouldn't see cute girls dating herbs. Girls are rewarding guys for being connected to them.

If you subtract date from the "ok i'm going to fuck and date the absolute coolest, hottest dude I can find" some of them do say that. I think social circle has a lot more to do with relationships than just fucking.

[Basil Ransom]

(09-03-2012 06:03 PM)ImWaitingForTheMan Wrote:  

(09-03-2012 05:56 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(09-03-2012 04:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The combination of facebook, smartphones and online dating has significantly changed women's attitudes toward dating over the past decade. Because of these recent technologies, women are essentially in a 24/7 state of receiving attention from men. Her beta orbiters and potential lovers are blowing up her facebook wall and texting her constantly, and she can log in to her online dating profile from her phone for a quick ego boost to see all the men who want to fuck her.

This means that when you're on a date with her, you're not really on a date with her; you're on a date with her and every other dude on her radar at the time. Not only must your game be strong enough to surmount her natural defenses, it must set you head and shoulders above every other guy she's talking to at the moment. You basically have to blow a chick away with the power of your game (or status, or looks, or some other massive DHV) to keep her on the hook past the first date. The typical 7-8 in her prime is getting bombarded with male attention, and will think nothing of writing you off in favor of "the next guy" unless you clearly knock her socks off with a powerful masculine vibe that shakes her out of her smartphone-induced attention-whoring stupor.

I have a different take. Far more important than having the best game is being there. That's the whole benefit of a social circle. Be there in the right time and the right place, and getting laid is easy peasy. You have to have game, but you're only really competing with the other dudes immediately available nearby. And even they don't figure in much if they're not talking to her.

If girls said, 'ok I'm going to fuck and date the absolute coolest, hottest dude I can find,' you wouldn't see cute girls dating herbs. Girls are rewarding guys for being connected to them.

If you subtract date from the "ok i'm going to fuck and date the absolute coolest, hottest dude I can find" some of them do say that. I think social circle has a lot more to do with relationships than just fucking.

I suppose, but that level of mercenary ambition is kind of rare. The ones that do do that often have weak circles. Besides, for plenty of girls, a guy high in a social circle *is* cool, and being outside the circle isn't.

[Catch 22]

(09-03-2012 01:04 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Basil, where I live everyone talks to you. They never shut up. In Connecticut not so much. In Cali not so much either but you hope they don't. Example: I was on the trolly bus heading to Clearwater beach Friday night with my Dominican girl. A group of girls loaded onto the thing and sat all around us and started asking questions and they were mixing drinks from water bottles filled with Vodka. They said they were part of some cult that worships the moon and they were going to get some weed and go howl at the moon on the beach and invited us. We got off at their stop and followed them and joined the group. My date was like WTF? These girls were all over the place age wise 20 to 40. I didn't see any of them updating their status.

I still do believe that most people get together through work. Go meet girls at their jobs.

People seem to talk to you in the Midwest and the South. Not at all on the East Coast.

On the main topic, I passed up on an easy first date lay last week and still got the second date and its lay. It might actually a better route to go if you want to the no-condom lay (separate thread coming on that). But you better be damn sure she's really into you. I've been burned more than once overestimating their interest level, especially with "busy" professional women.

[Samseau]

(09-03-2012 04:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The combination of facebook, smartphones and online dating has significantly changed women's attitudes toward dating over the past decade. Because of these recent technologies, women are essentially in a 24/7 state of receiving attention from men. Her beta orbiters and potential lovers are blowing up her facebook wall and texting her constantly, and she can log in to her online dating profile from her phone for a quick ego boost to see all the men who want to fuck her.

This means that when you're on a date with her, you're not really on a date with her; you're on a date with her and every other dude on her radar at the time. Not only must your game be strong enough to surmount her natural defenses, it must set you head and shoulders above every other guy she's talking to at the moment. You basically have to blow a chick away with the power of your game (or status, or looks, or some other massive DHV) to keep her on the hook past the first date. The typical 7-8 in her prime is getting bombarded with male attention, and will think nothing of writing you off in favor of "the next guy" unless you clearly knock her socks off with a powerful masculine vibe that shakes her out of her smartphone-induced attention-whoring stupor.

Combine that with 3 to 1 male to female ratio in the dating market... and basically the unlimited dating opportunities makes the average woman live in a cocktopia, whereby she can hold insanely high standards and still get the man she wants.

[Giovonny]

This is why I try to date simple girls, small town girls, traditional girls, foreign girls, country girls, working class girls, hippie chicks, natural girls, pot smokers, rebels, girls with small social circles, girls who haven't found their niche yet, girls not big on facebook, "sigmas", etc.

The less plugged into modern society they are, the less distractions I have to compete against.

Many of my bangs come on 2nd/3rd dates.

[Deif]

I'm going to chime in here and say that the second date is, in fact, dead. At least amongst the millennial generation. These girls need the seduction to be "organic"; something out of a romantic comedy because that's what's "supposed" to happen. That means she meets you at a dark bar and is so swept away by your graceful embodiment of the masculine that she's herded forth onto your cock by a cosmic stroke of serendipity (hormones).

She needs a narrative to retell herself, something she can skew and warp into a B-grade Hollywood script because she's a special little flower in bloom. Your responsibility as the steely protagonist with a piercing glare that smites the bad guys (read: dude who's about to hit and quit her) is to play the part and surpass her expectations.

We all know the hilarious excuses girls conjure up to justify the fact that they were pumped and dumped. The gap between first and second date allows the logical conclusions dammed up in her hindbrain the time to overflow. She suddenly realizes (unless you're of particularly high value) she's going to be kicked to the curb once you bone her and that will be that. Nay, she'd rather suffer through celibacy than go through the indignation of being perceived as a floozy.

[Giovonny]

(09-04-2012 05:10 PM)Deif Wrote:  

swept away by your graceful embodiment of the masculine that she's herded forth onto your cock by a cosmic stroke of serendipity (hormones).

This is the best sentence I have read all day!

And, SERENDIPITY is my new favorite word!

[Basil Ransom]

Occasionally, you'll run across a girl who's a real whore, but has also never hooked up with a new man without being inebriated, high, or hallucinogenic. I'm thinking of one girl in particular, but I'm sure it's happened several times to me. Unless you're feeding these chicks a handle of Popov on the first date, they may not respond to your touch; they can get strangely distant, and just have this quality of being non-sexual, and not interested in you despite you spitting your best game. I had this chick get creeped out by my moves, even though she had been in threesomes! Alternately, there was another girl like this, that I DID bang - she had banged a lot of guys, and partied hard. During the date, I thought it was boring and not going especially well - she didn't seem to be showing much interest. I went for it regardless, and she showed absolutely no resistance. Got the bang and hung out a couple more times until I tired of her.

Another related part to the 'second date is dead' phenomenon is that most girls nowadays will have absolutely no qualms about kissing or banging a guy at the bar if they've only kissed you and haven't banged you on the date. Even if she doesn't bang the dude at the bar and merely kisses him, I can imagine her rationalizing it as 'if I kissed him, I probably didn't like the guy from the date that much anyway...'

[Castor Troy]

Serendipity. That made me laugh, in the past year no less than three girls I've dated (19-24 age range) have told me it was their favorite movie. One even said she was so into me because I made her feel like she was in the movie. Pathetic- but I guess I was doing something right.

I'm in Toronto right now and I would say even if you bang the girl on a first date you can still be flaked on. I went out with a girl last week I met through friends and I played it well, had a few drinks and ended up getting the same night bang. She was really in to it saying how much she liked me and how she "never does this," (right). We ended up banging like five times and she kept telling me how good it was etc. Anyway, I really wasn't that in to this girl anyway but I messaged a couple days after the fact asking something simple like "hey what's up?" and she was ice cold. Like I said, I really wasn't that in to it and this girl is like a 7 at best. I'm dating two other girls at the moment so I can't really say I give a flying fuck but man, if you bang a girl well, five times in one night and she STILL will flake on you after things must be getting bad.

This is the only time a girl has flaked on me after a first night bang and maybe it was just a one off but there is definitely a lot of truth to this thread.

[Deif]

(09-04-2012 05:33 PM)Castor Troy Wrote:  

Serendipity. That made me laugh, in the past year no less than three girls I've dated (19-24 age range) have told me it was their favorite movie. One even said she was so into me because I made her feel like she was in the movie. Pathetic- but I guess I was doing something right.

I'm in Toronto right now and I would say even if you bang the girl on a first date you can still be flaked on. I went out with a girl last week I met through friends and I played it well, had a few drinks and ended up getting the same night bang. She was really in to it saying how much she liked me and how she "never does this," (right). We ended up banging like five times and she kept telling me how good it was etc. Anyway, I really wasn't that in to this girl anyway but I messaged a couple days after the fact asking something simple like "hey what's up?" and she was ice cold. Like I said, I really wasn't that in to it and this girl is like a 7 at best. I'm dating two other girls at the moment so I can't really say I give a flying fuck but man, if you bang a girl well, five times in one night and she STILL will flake on you after things must be getting bad.

This is the only time a girl has flaked on me after a first night bang and maybe it was just a one off but there is definitely a lot of truth to this thread.

If you've already fucked her, let her initiate first contact. She will do so without fail.

There was a time I fucked a girl in a ONS. She asked for my phone number, but I felt like fucking with her head so I told her I'd tell her "later." Ended up fucking her through the night and we ate breakfast at a pancake place nearby. Had a conversation and found I liked her intelligence.

I said, "you know, I actually like you as a person." At this point, she did a 180 and started acting cold. When I dropped her off at her apartment, she said we shouldn't see each other again. I told her "Thanks for the fuck" and drove off. Indeed, I never saw her again and don't remember her name.

Moral of the story: if you've already fucked her, let her do the pursuing.

[WestIndianArchie]

redacted

[Samseau]

(09-04-2012 06:12 PM)Deif Wrote:  

I said, "you know, I actually like you as a person." At this point, she did a 180 and started acting cold. When I dropped her off at her apartment, she said we shouldn't see each other again. I told her "Thanks for the fuck" and drove off. Indeed, I never saw her again and don't remember her name.

Moral of the story: if you've already fucked her, let her do the pursuing.

You broke the spell when you said that. You reminded her that you were just playing her. Never bring down the fourth wall.

[plague]

I feel like this thread has an overly negative vibe.

shouldn't we be happy that we are among the extremely small percentile of men who are aware of how many girls are willing to bang on the first date?

there are guys who don't even touch a girl until the 3rd date - I know, because I used to be one of them. how will they subsist?

[Samseau]

(09-04-2012 11:37 PM)plague Wrote:  

I feel like this thread has an overly negative vibe.

shouldn't we be happy that we are among the extremely small percentile of men who are aware of how many girls are willing to bang on the first date?

there are guys who don't even touch a girl until the 3rd date - I know, because I used to be one of them. how will they subsist?

You can still do the "wait till the 3rd date" if you meet a girl through social circle. It will hurt your chances of getting the bang, but I've seen it by a friend just a month ago.

So guys will still survive.

However, for cold approach, you really don't have that kind of time to waste, and getting a cold approach to turn into a girlfriend requires near perfect game. This means banging on the first date.

I wouldn't say the thread is negative - it's more or less the truth, and you can choose to interpret it as negative or positive.

[Basil Ransom]

I was just browsing some local events and saw these 'singles' groups and started thinking...

Is it just me, or do girls 25 and under never call themselves single? The whole idea that they are incomplete or lacking a man seems quaint for them. Any girl who does have that 'old-fashioned' instinct is mocked. And a man who actively seeks a girlfriend is even worse. Besides, when she has a fuckbuddy she's neither single nor spoken for, and she'd rather not clarify for prying eyes.