Quote: (07-28-2013 05:42 PM)NY Digital Wrote:  

This thread has brought something to mind:

G Manifesto.

What's his credibility, in light of recent events?

No one has any credibility untill they provide proof. Take 99% of the stuff you read on forums with a grain of salt. Take out stuff you can use. Delete the rest.

Mark Minter is full of shit now in my opinion. His word means nothing, verbal vomit fantasy printed online.

He is free to do whatever he wants but he is a complete hypocrite.

Quote: (07-28-2013 03:31 PM)delicioustacos Wrote:  

If this is not performance art, then Mark, Kate, and Suzanne are all hilariously nuts.

The two Mrs. Minters are resuming their comment banter here. But who knows what's real and what's not. We are through the looking glass.

Secretly I hope that Mark Minter, his wives, David Futrelle, Hugo Schwyzer and Great Books for Men are all the same person.

Edit: Roosh just posted a new ROK article addressing this, and the alleged Kate is jumping in in comments.

GBFM is the only manosphere figure who can never be questioned about anything he says ever.

I am also disappointed with this guy. I was looking to tell a friend of mine (that i have showed mark winters writings) that Mark is getting married, then i thought to myself, what is my friend going to think of me? What type of guy am i ''following''?

If he was a 30 years old that was suddenly getting married, I think it would be more understandable. Dude is 58 years old, you write a bunch of classic stuff online and few months later it all goes down the drain. Where is your integrity?

I understand that men will change their perspectives in life. Fuck it, just few years ago, i wanted to have 100 millions in my bank account, today i find that idea silly. But at my age is a normal change.

This guy is getting married to a woman that he has never met face to face (if you read her posts, you will understand that they have never met) and he has been talking all that alpha talk.

I am not buying his shit.

I bet the engagement gets called off at some point.

Quote: (07-28-2013 05:49 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (07-28-2013 05:42 PM)NY Digital Wrote:  

This thread has brought something to mind:

G Manifesto.

What's his credibility, in light of recent events?

Things get tricky here. Plenty of forum members have met each other (myself included) yet have not told the rest of the forum about it.

Must we invalidate our privacy? What should the threshold for validating members be? "I met him, he's not full of it?"

Like any good fraternity, we should establish a hazing ritual. The RooshV Inner Circle should congregate annually in Clearwater, FL. The 3 day event would start with Casino hunting with El Mechanico and wind up as a drunken free-for-all in DR. There would be medals and recognition based on acheivements unlocked; the 50 daytime-approach medal, the SNL medal, the notch-within-24-hours medal, threesome medal, surviving an assassination attempt medal, etc...

I think his wife did say he was engaged to a younger Columbian than called that off as well.

Btw what type of Troll would Mark Minter be?

Agree with a lot of posters. Mark Minter will divorce this crazy bitch with in a year after they get married.

Question is, will he return to the manosphere after this subsequent divorce and seek forgiveness?

I fully expect him to return the manoshpere, post-divorce, and say "Forgive me, brothers, for I was led astray."

From their decisions and reading Minter's ex wife's commentary, they both sound like they have serious mental issues. This seems more like a co-dependent vortex than anything resembling a well-adjusted relationship. "I have pictures you guys haven't seen" as justification for a marriage? Are you kidding me?

I continue to marvel at the eloquence Minter displayed in his often-quoted comments and would still show them to friends who are considering marriage. But knowing that he is a maladjusted basement dweller by nature (and not simply due to a devastating divorce) takes the luster off of his ideas.

Shame on us all for writing hagiographies without knowing what's behind the computer screen.

While not calling into question the authenticity of his views, Donlak and I both called bullshit on his rants generally. Here's my post which links to Donlak's (where Minter ranted in the comments):

http://taoofdirt.wordpress.com/2012/10/09/on-marriage/

And here's a direct link to Donlak's post (click older comments to get to Mark's rants):

http://donlak.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/get-married/

DM

Quote: (07-28-2013 05:49 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (07-28-2013 05:42 PM)NY Digital Wrote:  

This thread has brought something to mind:

G Manifesto.

What's his credibility, in light of recent events?

Things get tricky here. Plenty of forum members have met each other (myself included) yet have not told the rest of the forum about it.

Must we invalidate our privacy? What should the threshold for validating members be? "I met him, he's not full of it?"

Good question.

Quote: (07-28-2013 05:22 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

...
You cannot separate a moral teaching from the person who makes the teaching, because the person is the only standard by which we can judge a teaching by.

I like your argument, and have used something similar with regards to feminists debating whether dominance/submissive sex is acceptable to a real feminist.

Whoever has the best sex gets to comment on sex. It is about how you are actually living your life that matters - what holds the most truth and AT THE SAME TIME the most pleasure and life satisfaction that wins the argument.

It's not enough to be satisfied and happy with delusions.

It's not enough to be miserable with truth.

Follow mentors who are happy with truth. Whoever is having the best sex wins. What good is adhering to feminist principles and morals if it means your sex life suffers? What good is being an upright moral man if it makes you and those around you miserable? If your morals make you and those around you less happy, change your morals. There are two bottom lines; 1) life satisfaction and 2) truth. Two wings of a bird.

Also, you don't learn how the world works by failure alone. Would you study with street bums to learn how to be an entrepeneur? Really, take a close look. People value commiseration for it's own sake, and thrive on a group pity party, and then call that wisdom.

No.

Wisdom is SUCCEEDING.

NOT pointing out what fails.

Re-evaluate your mentors, and even your companions. Do you want to BE like them? Are they examples of life satisfaction and truth?

You know. This happened before - 83 years ago...

Quote:Quote:

Bachelors know more about women than married men; if they didn't they'd be married too. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

A man may be a fool and not know it, but not if he is married. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Love is the delusion that one woman differs from another. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

The only really happy folk are married women and single men. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who would want to live in an institution? - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Strike an average between what a woman thinks of her husband a month before she marries him and what she thinks of him a year afterward, and you will have the truth about him. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Whenever a husband and wife begin to discuss their marriage they are giving evidence at a coroner's inquest. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Men have a much better time of it than women. For one thing, they marry later; for another thing, they die earlier. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Love is an emotion that is based on an opinion of women that is impossible for those who have had any experience with them. - H. L. Mencken

In 1930, Mencken married German American Sara Haardt, a professor of English at Goucher College in Baltimore and an author who was eighteen years his junior. Haardt was in poor health from tuberculosis throughout their marriage and died in 1935 of meningitis, leaving Mencken grief-stricken.

Mencken died in his sleep on January 29, 1956.

Quote: (07-28-2013 09:34 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

You know. This happened before - 83 years ago...

Quote:Quote:

Bachelors know more about women than married men; if they didn't they'd be married too. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

A man may be a fool and not know it, but not if he is married. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Love is the delusion that one woman differs from another. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

The only really happy folk are married women and single men. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who would want to live in an institution? - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Strike an average between what a woman thinks of her husband a month before she marries him and what she thinks of him a year afterward, and you will have the truth about him. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Whenever a husband and wife begin to discuss their marriage they are giving evidence at a coroner's inquest. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Men have a much better time of it than women. For one thing, they marry later; for another thing, they die earlier. - H. L. Mencken

Quote:Quote:

Love is an emotion that is based on an opinion of women that is impossible for those who have had any experience with them. - H. L. Mencken

In 1930, Mencken married German American Sara Haardt, a professor of English at Goucher College in Baltimore and an author who was eighteen years his junior. Haardt was in poor health from tuberculosis throughout their marriage and died in 1935 of meningitis, leaving Mencken grief-stricken.

Mencken died in his sleep on January 29, 1956.

Yep, that is a famous story. It was almost as if God himself wanted to humiliate and punish Mencken for his hardcore anti-marriage rantings.

First he proved to Mencken that it was possible for him to find a good woman and fall in love, then he took the love of his life away from Mencken to punish him for being such as asshole about it.

Minter posted a reply... what a bunch of BS rationalizations...

http://www.returnofkings.com/14846/mark-...-979597403

Quote:Mark Phinter Wrote:

If you find me a hypocrite then that it your choice. You all are searching for some path.

I am 58, and I promise all of you, things will change for you dramatically once you do cross 50.

My financial situation has become most public. Divorce took me from a prosperous upper middle class suburbanite to my bottom some one year ago when I found this manosphere. Yes, you can go and find my ex-wife jumping up and down over money, and lack of my ability to pay. Economic forces, my age, and some of the actions I took under the cloud of depression in the first years after divorce caused jobs that I could get with a snap of a finger before 2001 to become few and far between. Interviews that were mere formalities before become inquisitions. And I aggravated my situation by trying to leave the country without guidance, to find how to do it own my own.

And also, unlike almost all of you I never hid behind a pen name, And I have paid the price for my participation. I have been ostracized by family and anyone that searched by name before, particularly any woman, immediately leaped to conclusions about me that preclude from any corporate job for the rest of my life.

I would say this, "this internet groupie" is not what you say she is. She is a woman that has questioned what she was told by the culture as well as any of you. She has been a part of this manosphere well before many of you. Few of you will have discussions as we have had. Few of you will ever meet a woman that wishes to know herself. She commented to me that "For women hypergamy is hard to accept". I said "Why, the whole story, the studies, the anecdotes and study of men is a cogent and consistent". She said "It's not that. It is that it is hard to accept that women have such a negative and dark to their personality"

Rollo once responded to a question "Can a woman overcome her hypergamy?"

I feel this woman has. And rather than celebrate her for her efforts. The very things you value in women, low N count, placing family over career, seeking a relationship where the man is the man and the woman is the woman, she has adopted and understands those are the things that make women happy. You shame her.

The whole point of the "Top that, motherfuckers" was no so much a gloat, but rather an affirmation that if you follow the teachings, that you can reach your relationship goals whatever they may be. That the teachings work. That they can help a beaten down, near suicidal old man, get up, find himself, know himself, and achieve something. In dealings with this woman, and all women, since I have learned them, have been what I have learned from this community. If you think a 58 year old man is going to go out and work Day Game, you better think again. And in this particular relationship I worked the concepts and even with a woman that knows them, that sees them coming, they still work.

No, three months ago, the idea of marriage was far, far, far from my mind. And even before all of this I had issues with it, not only with the institution, but with the statement I would make to all of you. I had these visions of Shoeless Joe Jackson coming out the courthouse after the Blacks Sox Trials and the little kid saying "Say, it ain't so Joe."

But I agreed to it because this woman wished to give this example to her daughter, that the path to happiness for a woman is not "leaning in", is not "you go gurl", is not "strong and independent", but rather in knowing herself, knowing those things that make women happy, in accepting the institution as it is meant to be and not as women think of it today.

And frankly, I didn't think I had a lot to lose, and quite a lot to gain. And quite a lot to gain.

And I can see that many of you struggling with finding PostModern meaning, even the sponsor and prime author of this blog, and I would assume, my greatest denouncer, are struggling with meaning in life after established institutions and accepted paths have broken down. I do to, as much as anyone. I don't have years to find the right path.

I wouldn't recommend this path to 99.9% of you because hopefully you are not in my situation. And you have the years ahead of you that I do not have.

My writing has been a cautionary tale of what can happen to men if they adopt marriage 2.0, of what can happen to you. Everything and I mean Everything I ever wrote was 100% truthful. Everything happened as I said it happened.

I don't think I ever positioned myself as some sort of mighty alpha at this point in my life. And I thought it was assumed that I was a story of warning. And the success I had with women since the divorce has come in Colombia where there is entirely different set of rules.

I resisted having a blog, I never tried to commercialize or gain on anything I wrote and assumed myself to be just one more contributor of experience to this community.

And yes, though great rantings were near a year ago and it has been a trip through the last year. And in the intervening time, my research and writing was about discovering how to be better, do better, and particularly involved in the endocrine system and the effect of testosterone on men and that effect on women.

To be "Branded" like this, to have ensigns of rank ripped of my shoulders, to be drummed out like this, for marrying a manosphere woman, is going to be quite a shock. And frankly I don't think the relationship will withstand so public a humiliation.

I had one consolation before, and that was someday when my son searched for my name he would find that writing, that would show him the path to be a better man, to learn to defend himself against this culture, and to know I was part of the good fight.

And now even the most heinous enemy of you has not been shamed in the way I have. And I have not been your enemy.

As I type this I see all these new comments coming in probably to pile on.

What I learned here had an effect on my life. I have a project I probably would not have had without the inspiration to seek a way outside of the "grid" and I have found that. I had found a way to understand what happened to me, a way to prevent it from happening in the future.

And surely the days ahead will test all of that and certainly test me.

I wish you all the best of luck.

I tried to speak some sense into him, but I'm sure it's way too late for that.

http://www.returnofkings.com/14846/mark-...-979641927

Quote:Samseau Wrote:

"Rollo once responded to a question "Can a woman overcome her hypergamy?"

I feel this woman has. And rather than celebrate her for her efforts. The very things you value in women, low N count, placing family over career, seeking a relationship where the man is the man and the woman is the woman, she has adopted and understands those are the things that make women happy. You shame her."

Your limerent rationalizations are ridiculous, I do hope you understand this. When things between you and Kate are over, hopefully you can come back to this post and understand how weak you are.

It's too bad - you've got a mind that understands, but your mind is basically a slave to your dick and other emotions. This will not end well for you. You will get burned, and you will beat yourself up afterwards for not taking your own advice written in your rant, "Marriage is for Pussies." Because right now, you are acting like a huge pussy.

Although you are poor and have nothing left to lose, there is no reason why you should get engaged, let alone marry, to Kate instead of dating her for an extended period of time first (at LEAST 2 years). You think you have something to gain but instead you are rushing back to the same prison you once escaped.

^ He is a narcissist who has created a persona and is trying to defend it.

Right now his persona is dying. He is freaking out.

A real man would say, "I believed what I wrote at the time. I still believe it's true most of the time. Then I fell in love. Maybe I am delusional. She is worth the risk. If I am wrong, feel freak to mock me 5 years from now."

Instead, he is playing the role of victim, talking about being "branded." Just LOL.

A man owns his decisions.

Mark Minter is not a real man. He does not exist. He is a fictional character.

It is sad that Kate thought so lowly of him that she made this public.

This blowout was entirely predictable, but Kate didn't care.

She elevated her happiness to Mark's.

Mark is marrying the exact woman he railed against. Hope he at least gets some sex out of it.

I guess for guys who believed in Marks extremist rantings as Truth, his hypocrisy is a weakness and he is betraying core good principles.

But his rantings were never truth. He is now, as before, trying to maximize his happiness. Only he's taking a different strategy.

Sounds to me like it might be a fine strategy. Kate might actually improve his financial situation. He'll get laid. There will be ups and downs, but chances are for a few years at least he'll be better off, and it doesn't seem possible he can be financially harmed.

So it's actually probably a good choice for him.

The only guys dissapointed in his choices will be those who bought into his bullshit extremist immature one sided failure based views.

You really think he'll do better on the dating market? And for how long? I mean will HE do better. Not some mythological man. Him. Mark Minter. Mark Minter is probably getting about as good as HE can get.

At least he's finally owning that part of himself that seeks intimacy. He came across as a zealot at odds with his own hidden desires in his anti-intimacy fuck-women rants. Of COURSE he was lonely. Duh!

Honestly, I still have a hard time understanding this anti-intimacy cult that has gripped huge swaths of the manosphere. It's like guys are saying that you can learn to be higher value than the woman you date, can learn to push her buttons, can even learn to be great in bed and great with women, but you can never learn how to have successful fulfilling relationships with them. Pump and dump the bitches! Especially Western Lizards!

No confidence in the ability to train your pimp hand to train up a woman to be useful in the long term.

It's a one sided attitude that denies huge parts of your humanity. As Mark has proven, you can't do that for long. Something will have to give.

Interesting how Mark said "I FEEL...".

Lets stop the fuck right there. Since when does a smart man operate on FEELINGS?

I'm down to put $500 into an escrow account that Kate is BPD or something of the like.

Also, Mark said "2 months ago". Don't tell me he's only known her for 2 months? What am I missing here?

Quote:Samseau Wrote:

There are many who are saying, "Hey, that's ad hominem - who cares about the man, it's just the ideas that matter!"

I believe this statement is true except for moral arguments. For moral arguments, which are arguments that make the case for the best way to live one's life, or the right or wrong course of actions, hypocrisy can be used to discredit ideas. And here's why.

It's not that he made moral arguments. It's that he heavily leveraged personal experience to lend credibility to his image and make his message more persuasive. (AKA appeal to authority by establishing himself as an authority)

Attacking credibility is a valid counter-argument to an appeal to authority.

Quote: (07-28-2013 10:20 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

Quote:Samseau Wrote:

There are many who are saying, "Hey, that's ad hominem - who cares about the man, it's just the ideas that matter!"

I believe this statement is true except for moral arguments. For moral arguments, which are arguments that make the case for the best way to live one's life, or the right or wrong course of actions, hypocrisy can be used to discredit ideas. And here's why.

It's not that he made moral arguments. It's that he heavily leveraged personal experience to lend credibility to his image and make his message more persuasive. (AKA appeal to authority by establishing himself as an authority)

Attacking credibility is a valid counter-argument to an appeal to authority.

He did both with authority and moral arguments. His moral arguments were, "Don't get married," "Pump and dump," "Marriage in America is a scam," etc. etc. Typical manosphere stuff.

It sounds like he has known her for only a few months than decided to marry her. I think they met in person but sounds far too rushed to get engaged.

Kate also might be attracted to his rage as well. Although I predict the divorce will be in a few years and this will be used to bashed the manosphere.

I know Matt Forney warned against shacking up with 'groupies' earlier.

But look at it from Mark's point of view. It is not as if he just wandered in to a bar and married the first girl that sat down next to him.

He is marrying a girl who seems to buy into 'red pill thinking' completely (which isn't a surprise - since alot of girls want traditional relationships - but are too shy to admit it).

So - even though the term 'Not All Women Are Like That' - is usually used as a term of abuse. From Mark's point of view - he is marrying a chick who will come closer to that than just about anyone else. Since - this is a chick who openly praises and agrees with alot of the teachings in this part of the web.

Now - I personally would never get married. And it is a little odd - doing it the way Mark has done. But - there is a thread of logic behind his decision making. In his mind this chick is a card carrying believer in the manosphere. And just going on what she says - she is more of a hope than the majority of slightly bitter feminist women that most men end up shacking up with.

I think Mark should get a pass. He is 58 years old, and is not just marrying some random broad. He is marrying a girl who (in his mind) agrees with all the shit he rants about in his epic posts.

This is not something I would do. And if it were a young guy with plenty of options before him, I would advise otherwise.

But I agree with Roissy - who also seems to find this whole thing quite charming.

I wish the couple well. And I hope Mark continues to write in the future.

I mean - do we burn the works of H. L. Mencken because he got married?

And on top of that. It seems unfair that Mark should have to suffer because he has used his real name online.

Quote: (07-28-2013 09:58 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:Mark Minter Wrote:

Rollo once responded to a question "Can a woman overcome her hypergamy?"

I feel this woman has. And rather than celebrate her for her efforts. The very things you value in women, low N count, placing family over career, seeking a relationship where the man is the man and the woman is the woman, she has adopted and understands those are the things that make women happy. You shame her.

Holy shit. Can he really not see that this is a complete validation of hypergamy? She wants him because he's high status in the manosphere as a respected commentator. If he was just his regular, un-famous deadbeat self, she wouldn't even notice him.

I had nothing against Minter himself---just the idiotic fanboys who elevated him to god status---but my sympathy for the guy is eroding fast.

Quote: (07-28-2013 11:26 PM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

Holy shit. Can he really not see that this is a complete validation of hypergamy? She wants him because he's high status in the manosphere as a respected commentator. If he was just his regular, un-famous deadbeat self, she wouldn't even notice him.

Yep. That's why, once she landed this "high status man," she IMMEDIATELY shared this information with those who held him in high esteem.

She did this even though any rational person would have anticipated a fallout.

I mean, come on bro! This isn't hard.

This is all textbook, Game 101 shit unfolding.

I bet Mark is wondering if he made a mstake in using his real name. "Mark Minter is a phoney" is first item when searching on his name now. hah

https://www.google.com/search?q=mark+min...e&ie=UTF-8

Again, I don't really see any problem with Mark getting married. He's 58 years old, has practically no assets, and his bride-to-be is 24 years younger than him. I mean, every single piece of advice against a man getting married in the first place doesn't apply to him. The only sticking point is her kid, and at this point I think that's a fair trade-off. In fact, if anyone's getting the raw end of the deal, it might be Kate.

After some reflection, I am only disappointed in the situation to whatever extent that there was misrepresentation of his character and experience. But who knows, maybe his ex is crazy too. We took him at his word due to his openness with his identity and the depth of his writing, and of course because his narrative fit our expectations to some degree or another. So, I guess, who really knows anything.

Anyway, best of luck to all parties involved, including S.Minter.