[WestIndianArchie]

I like how everybody is like, "I knew that dude was a fraud" "I could smell a rat".

lol

WIA

[scorpion]

I think we should take a step back here. It's not like Mark Minter was leading a manosphere cavalry charge. He was just a guy who spit some major venom on marriage and his words managed to strike a chord and resonate with people. I can't speak for everyone of course, but personally I never saw him as some kind of leader or role model. He was just a guy who made some good anti-marriage posts.

The fact that he couldn't live up to his own advice doesn't really bother me, or surprise me. It's like a former drug addict who preaches zealously against drugs for awhile, and then relapses. Anyone who could be so fiercely against something was clearly once very taken in by it. Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. In hindsight it was obvious that Mark Minter very much wanted to be married, he liked the idea of being married; he just felt betrayed and wronged by marriage, and he let that anger out in his posts.

However, that doesn't invalidate his writings, in my opinion. I believe they can still stand on their own as a warning to others. Any man who reads them and as a consequence starts to think more carefully about jumping into marriage will still benefit, regardless of Mark Minter's marital status.

Ultimately, the idea is more important than the man himself.

[TheSlayer]

^^^ I had no idea who he was until I saw Roosh's post on him on ROK and had seen him mentioned here and there a couple of times but never bothered to look him up. If it was some kind of troll it will be very funny.

[soup]

(07-27-2013 07:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

So I guess you can say he literally was a basement dweller troll.

I think the reason we got duped is because so many of us on this side of the manosphere aren't close to his age. How can guys 35 and under do a reality check on the writings of a 60 year old? His anti-marriage rants fit our model of the world, so we quickly accepted them as a sort of truth and validation of our beliefs.

What I like about the forum is that many guys are meeting each other, so the seed is already planted to prevent this from happening again. At the minimum, I will be looking for a "I met him... he exists" level of verification. Otherwise, I will believe nothing.

We're arriving at the point where if you want to be a prominent member of this community, you must be prepared to shake hands with others.

This is a community of ideas.

It's like how Al Qeada isn't centralized. If he couldn't live up to his own words, that's his business.

Truth is truth, it doesn't matter who is saying it.

An example of this is game-deniers. They talk shit all they want, but the truth is that if you go out and try some of the stuff we talk about here, the results are real.

This is why I don't care if a woman like Girls Says What posts MRA videos. As long as what she says is true, it doesn't matter.

It's like medicine; throughout history, there have been atrocious experiments done, but does that mean the knowledge gained from them shouldn't be used to save peoples lives?

[MrXY]

(07-27-2013 07:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

We're arriving at the point where if you want to be a prominent member of this community, you must be prepared to shake hands with others.

As one whose interest in the manosphere is mostly concerned with how to bang more sloots, I have to say this is a bizarre circus

[NYJ]

(07-27-2013 08:55 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

I like how everybody is like, "I knew that dude was a fraud" "I could smell a rat".

lol

WIA

Ok so my judgement was based on just a bit of hindsight.

[Anaguma]

(07-27-2013 09:16 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I think we should take a step back here. It's not like Mark Minter was leading a manosphere cavalry charge. He was just a guy who spit some major venom on marriage and his words managed to strike a chord and resonate with people. I can't speak for everyone of course, but personally I never saw him as some kind of leader or role model. He was just a guy who made some good anti-marriage posts.

The fact that he couldn't live up to his own advice doesn't really bother me, or surprise me. It's like a former drug addict who preaches zealously against drugs for awhile, and then relapses. Anyone who could be so fiercely against something was clearly once very taken in by it. Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. In hindsight it was obvious that Mark Minter very much wanted to be married, he liked the idea of being married; he just felt betrayed and wronged by marriage, and he let that anger out in his posts.

However, that doesn't invalidate his writings, in my opinion. I believe they can still stand on their own as a warning to others. Any man who reads them and as a consequence starts to think more carefully about jumping into marriage will still benefit, regardless of Mark Minter's marital status.

Ultimately, the idea is more important than the man himself.

Exactly. His posts stand or fall on their merits regardless of who he is or what he does afterwards. Discrediting his writings because of his actions is an ad hominem attack. Y'all should know better; that is the work of shallower minds like manboob.

His writings indicate that it is possible to end up turning into someone with that line of thought and subsequent fate if you get married without red pill knowledge. And that even if you have the red pill knowledge, it may not be enough to save you from falling anyway. His writings provide very interesting glimpses to possible fates for younger people in the manosphere, which allow them to make better decisions to avoid such fates or know what to expect.

[Matt Forney]

Most everyone here has already made many of the points I wanted to make re: Minter's authenticity, but there's a greater point missed in his marrying GeishaKate, a manosphere groupie:

Too many of the women attracted to the manosphere are varying degrees of insane.

Here's a little story for you all. Around last Thanksgiving, I went to Rapid City to meet up with one of my readers, "Kasia," and her husband. I had known them via a Facebook group we were all part of, but when I found out that she was big on the manosphere (and credited Roissy, Athol Kay and IMF as helping her turn her life around and find a husband early), I let slip that I used to blog as "Ferdinand Bardamu" and she had a groupie freakout. In hindsight I should have noticed that she was mentally off, but I chose to ignore the warning signs---her being overly happy to be around me, making these obvious little innuendos when we were alone, and some other things I can't mention for the sake of her privacy---mainly because I was happy to see one woman who superficially was doing the right thing by the manosphere (getting married young [she's 25, same age as me], having babies, letting the man take charge, keeping herself fit and skinny).

Fast forward to last February. Kasia gets on Skype to tell me that she's divorcing her husband because she got fed up with his laziness (he's changed majors four times in the past four years, and has also moved her and the kids like ten times in the same amount of time, from Rapid to Denver to Albuquerque back to Rapid, as a means of smoothing over the bumps in their relationship; he has no job and they were living off of their combined trust funds) and lack of sex drive (as she put it, "once a month... for years"). She then tells me that she's gone to shack up with another manosphere blogger (name omitted, but you can figure it out if you've read my blog; I'd appreciate it if you kept your speculation to private messages, though) and they're planning to build a new life together overseas. I was skeptical but went along with it because Kasia was one of the few women I've ever known who was justified in pursuing a divorce, and her husband and I didn't get along anyway. The dude was literally willing to accept being a cuckold (he told her that he would let her "keep a lover," as if he had any power over her) to avoid divorce. She also gave him sole custody of their kids.

So fast forward to May. My friend tells me that Kasia, all of a sudden, decided to go back to Rapid two weeks prior to hang out with her friends (male friends) in nearby Wyoming, and refused to contact him at all while she was there. Last week, she finally responded to tell him that she was moving back to Rapid permanently to be "closer to the kids." Bear in mind that by this point her ex-husband had already taken the fucking kids back to Denver, and you can connect the dots as to what Kasia was doing in Rapid. It also helps that she was badmouthing him to another mutual friend of ours; she didn't tell him anything about what she was doing.

Also, my friend told me that Kasia had started badmouthing me before she left, describing me as "mildly sociopathic" and other things, which considering that she a) agreed to meet me based on nothing more than the fact that she liked my writing and b) basically gave me a grand tour of western South Dakota, taking me to Mount Rushmore, Crazy Horse and a local winery all on her own while her husband was busy, reads as her being upset that I basically friendzoned her.

Did I mention that a) Kasia is an Ivy League grad, b) her parents are Polish immigrants and c) she had sex with only one guy before getting married (so she claims, anyway; I believe her)?

Tl;dr: women who take an interest in the manosphere are to be regarded with suspicion at best, even the ones who superficially seem to be "good girls." There are a few "manosphere girls" I trust (Dr. Helen, Suz McCarley, the Mistress and a young girl I met last week among them), because they're real, mature people who've earned my respect, but I no longer give these other Janey-come-latelys the benefit of the doubt. After four plus years of fucked up groupie behavior, from unsolicited naked self-shots to low-level stalking, any woman who claims to enjoy the manosphere is on my Psycho Radar until she proves that she's not a headcase.

I give Minter's marriage a year before Kate finds another cock to suck.

[DLZ]

Whatever makes the guy happy I guess, but I'm gonna have to agree that lizards don't belong in the manosphere. It's one of the reasons I like rooshvforum, it's one of those places where men can just exchange ideas, stories, tips, etc without worrying about interloping females fucking up shit and turning men against one another in some status-jockeying contest.

It's not that you can't learn anything from women, because you definitely can. There's definitely women that any man could learn from when it comes to making money or living a baller lifestyle. But it's not the same as male camaraderie.

It's just seems kind of fucked for a bird to come along and be like "Look at me! I'm a woman and I agree with you sexist misogynist male ruffians! WOW! I'm marriage material. I'm feminine! WOOOO! Look at me!"

It's the same dynamic as pathetic dudes trying to garner favour by agreeing with feminists in their own domain.

Just smacks of generic attention-whoring and special-snowflake syndrome and should be treated as such.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I have for a moment considered the possibility that the writings of this "Minter's ex-wife" are just another troll job, especially because they are posted at the cesspit that is "manboobz". Why would anyone do that? But then again... why would a famous manosphere writer with a fanatic anti-marriage stance get married and have his wife write bizzare essays about it? I'm pretty sure that if I got married I wouldn't do more than more than mention it in passing, unless it was somehow related to actual use of game.

As hard as it is for me to believe, I find both sides of this story to be more likely to be real (or reveals of long-standing trolls among us) rather than just some form of slander. It's too weird to be fake.

[Roosh]

To think you can separate the idea from the man is foolhardy.

[Roosh]

No one is doing themselves any favors by saying they knew he was a fraud. By remaining silent in such deceit, are you not complicit? What was stopping you from presenting a case? There has been no effort on my part to silence those who criticized Mark. In fact, I don't remember a single person who voiced a strong objection to the authenticity of his views.

[bacan]

Roosh, we will just have to see how this situation develops. It is not a disaster for manosphere, just a new data point.

It cannot be repeated enough that this girl is bad news. His entire persona was based around one single idea.. You are stupid and a pussy if you get married.

And she begins their relationship by forcing himself to humiliate himself and eat crow and even imply that he's doing it all for an online (??) relationship.

Plus what high value woman would want to explain to her parents that she is marrying a guy 24 years older that has written such venomous things? And even worse one who is apparently a jobless basement dweller who owes back taxes and potentially child support?

Is this even real life? I wonder if this is some catfish type hoax.

I don't know if Mark is a fraud as much as just weak. The lure of love and sex and the sting of loneliness must have overcome his ability to logically avoid the boredom and misery that awaits him.

It is jarring that he just did a total 180 and now looks like a hypocritical bitch. When Roosh changed course on ego sex it was based on new experiences and analysis and thoughtfully explained. Minter's change of heart was outed by his attention whoring fiance that didn't even let him have the first word on the matter. And it was not prompted by new information or experience--just new snatch offering the same exact thing he has been railing against.

Either way new data will come of this experiment. If his change of heart is validated by his experience we might have to pay attention although with skepticism; he has not earned our trust to change his mind in the right way, like how we are now listening to Roosh talk about avoiding ego sex instead of trying to check off every country in multi flag missions.

Mark minter is done for as a respected voice in the community but I think the value of the data that will come from his experiences could now be as interesting as ever. Wouldn't you like to read an essay that he writes after he is divorced and suckered again? I would.

It will be interesting if he keeps writing during his marriage as well. But he won't have respect any more.

[Rompetoto]

Any pictures of them together?

[Aliblahba]

The internet has become a real poison for society. People can use it to seek validation they wont' get in the real world. That encouragement fuels their denial, keeping them from learning from their mistakes, or allows them to continuously live in an alternate universe.

[Beyond Borders]

(07-28-2013 09:55 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

The internet has become a real poison for society. People can use it to seek validation they wont' get in the real world. That encouragement fuels their denial, keeping them from learning from their mistakes, or allows them to continuously live in an alternate universe.

Dang. Look at the big brain on Ali.

[xsplat]

So according to his ex he's broke, and there is speculation that there is money in Kates family. So divorce rape may not be an issue for him.

When his fan club was huge I spoke out against his extremist anti-intimacy views, until I got bored of stating the obvious. Now, as others have noted, his extremism was a sign of instability. It was not a sign of a mature deep knowledge of the way things work in the world. I never saw him as wise that way, although others took him as a leader with wisdom, I spoke out as best I could to point out that he was precisely not that. He was just a guy who wasn't great at relationships and maybe not even cut out for them, who insisted that his problems were the fault of the system and of women.

It was on him. Regardless of women or the system, it was still on him. And worse people than him have gotten over worse divorces and went on to healthy relationships. His attitude was that it was foolish to even think of trying.

I like his writing ability, and would be happy to have him in my circle of friends, but his ideas were immature. An old guy with relationship immaturity.

And honestlly, ya, it bothered me to see so many guys give the guy Mentor-Dad status. Having things not work out for you doesn't give you knowledge of the way the world works.

I would have thought that people would want mentors who had success that they wanted to emulate. Instead the pity party is winning in politics, as if an internet support group is what people need in their lives.

[Vicious]

(07-28-2013 06:01 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

To think you can separate the idea from the man is foolhardy.

But the idea was never his in the first place, he just worded other men's thoughts in a very accessible way.

I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we have to accept everything he says or nothing of it.

Heck I'm a guy that's fairly positive about marriage (though not by American law) and I found a lot of gems in his thoughts.

[soup]

(07-28-2013 06:01 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

To think you can separate the idea from the man is foolhardy.

Can you explain why? Maybe the man has branded the idea, but the idea exists regardless of the whether or not the man is even alive or not. 1 + 1 = 2 exists even if the guy who discovered it later said it wasn't true.

Minter is a hypocrite, but that doesn't mean the ideas are false.

I'm not saying that his move isn't politically bad for manosphere, but some of the ideas he presented before turning coat made sense to me.

[Divorco]

(07-28-2013 08:22 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

I don't remember a single person who voiced a strong objection to the authenticity of his views.

I think legal and social structures evolved to protect women, and marriage is an anachronistic institution that can be a bad deal for a high-income guy. Marriage is no longer necessary to socially validate your relationship or get pussy. Meanwhile women earn decent money, and don't need man for support. That explains declining marriage rates.

So Forney's writing is plausible. But I don't understand young single guys complaining about marriage and "divorce rape". Many manosphere participants are broke travelers with nothing to lose. Roosh has the more credibility when he writes about irritating young D.C. skanks.

The bitterness in the Manosphere community bothers me. Forney's wife says he epitomizes the unemployed, leeching, deadbeat dad. Too many posts blame women for men's failures in school and work. People pile on when anyone posts a bizarre news story about a batshit crazy woman creating legal troubles for a man. The bitterness then extends beyond women, to gays and other minorities. At the extreme, you have the MGTOW movement where guys stop working and become celibate or patronize prostitutes. There are also Walter Mitty keyboard jockeys who brag about elite athleticism and affluence. It gives the impression of social misfits and losers.

But the Manosphere also shares support and wisdom. We have students, doctors, lawyers, farmers, gamblers, and athletes informed by real experience. Through stupidity and bad blue pill programming, many of us suffered bad love lives. These forums help.

[Norset]

The ONLY truths we have are mathematical truths.

Remember that scientifically we can only disprove, not prove.

Then way down the "purity hirearchy", far away from 1+1=2, comes advice on how to live your life in relation to other people. Here the messenger and the message can not be separated. The advice in the manosphere falls into this category.

Maybe xkcd can illustrate:

http://xkcd.com/435/

[Tex Pro]

Disappointed in Mark Minter.

What the fuck was all his advice for then? High-level trolling?

[scorpion]

(07-28-2013 06:01 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

To think you can separate the idea from the man is foolhardy.

Just think of all the books you've read by authors who are dead, or biographies of men who are dead. You know nothing of the actual man himself, only what survives on paper, in the realm of ideas. Yet that is more than sufficient to gain knowledge and wisdom.

Men come and go, but ideas can last forever, as long as there are other men to carry them forward. A man himself is flesh and blood, but through the power of his ideas he can become an immortal symbol.

For example, it's why this Lincoln endures:




Long after this one has turned to dust:

[Aliblahba]

The most efficient way to destroy the enemy is from within. If the community is filled with Trojan Horses, it will continue to degrade. Now is a good time to shake the tree and expose the bad apples. The only way to insure the integrity of an organization is to police the ranks from within. When it's done from the outside, the validity of that entity is lost.

(07-27-2013 07:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

We're arriving at the point where if you want to be a prominent member of this community, you must be prepared to shake hands with others.

We're not a secret squirrel society or the public forum wouldn't exist. Suspicion gets raised when one openly posts on the internet, but refuses to meet their peers in person. Enough has to be taken with grain of salt on the internet, but we have the power to eliminate some of those variables.

[Dusty]

The revelation that he is a broke basement dweller makes plausible the theory that he hasn't met her in real life, and explains why he would be "ga ga" for her.

You're 58 years old, you're broke, you don't have a job, you're living in a relative's basement, and a girl 24 years younger than you who is presumably not fat then throws herself at you. At this point your confidence has to be in the toilet and attention from a younger girl must feel really really good. You'll do stupid shit.