I'm only passing through to sort something out in private messages - I live a functionally-monastic Life now - but the topic caught my eye, given that I've been investigating Orthodoxy, due to a member asking for advice a while ago, and, well, I've been curious that Catholics consider them part of Mother Church, whilst the Orthodox consider Catholics to be Protestants, and, given the possibility of short haired women taking control of the Australian Church with the Plenary Council, I'd been looking for somewhere to jump ship, should it come to that. Maybe someone more in the know can help answer a question I have about Orthodoxy. Sorry for the length.
From a combination of what I understand as Infused Knowledge, the Ignatian strand of my readings, and my studies of Demonology and Spiritual Warfare, as a Catholic you're taught to be suspicious of anything that seems to be Of God that enters via the sensitive (emotional) faculties, as the Demonic is able to influence those faculties. Luckily, if you learn to Discernment Spirits, you can reliably-predict safe action, based upon your current emotional state (being in spiritual consolation or spiritual desolation).
What you're taught to trust is knowledge that arises via Reason (which can't be influenced) over Emotion (which can), and this has stood me in good staid.
With Infused Knowledge: I'm what is known as a Contemplative, rather than being of Active Order. By this stage, I consider myself a Carmelite in Spirit, though I also often work with the Missionaries of Charity (Mother Theresa) who are Active-Contemplatives, meaning, they're not cloistered. My ability to see patterns and make sense out of random input means I can make links through varied snippets of information received via the faculties of reason, which reliably-guides my way forward, because, to a Contemplative, God is revealed through experience and events, (at least, until my
emotions get involved).
This means the process of acquiring Spiritual Knowledge as often happens during my everyday activities and interactions, rather than purely through prayer and spiritual reading alone. So when I speak of receiving 'Infused Knowledge', usually the faculties of reason are engaged via a pattern of experience, which, later on, is then revealed as Truth within reading from multiple sources. Catholicism is agreed upon rather than personally interpreted: the Saints experience the same eventual truth via their different experiences, so you base your trust in material with Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats: meaning the work is considered free from moral and doctrinal error based upon the agreed upon experiences of the Church.
Oddly though, the Orthodox believe that Reason is just as open to demonic influence as emotion, which, contradicts my constant day-to-day experience of
being guided.
Here's an example:
- I've been studying St John of the Cross's Mount of Perfection, knowing that I'm being asked to bear some very heavy crosses that I'm - unfortunately - rebelling against, but having a nagging feeling that I'm pursuing the spiritual goods too hard to avoid doing both what is hard and would involve letting go of my pride. Based upon his teachings, spiritual goods can be just as much a trap as physical goods.
- Now, I am (but am increasingly
was) of Melancholic Temperament, which is best repaired by embracing Humility at every opportunity, which is useful, based upon my own tendency to think I know everything due to my intelligence and capacity to pick things up quickly and easily. It's understood worldly intelligence is of absolutely no use once you start sensing the Spiritual World, and its best to proceed as if you know nothing at all: as a child.
- So, I sense that God
wants all from me - I've kept my life over the last 12 months very private, though a few know what I've been dealing with - but I'm unable to fully-give myself over to what is known as
the Yes of Perfect Consent.
- I would sum this up as being stubbornly-unable to abandon myself to God, because, due to my childhood, I can't fully-trust a Father Figure.
- About 10 weeks ago, I'd ordered, on a whim, not understanding why, a book called 'Self-Abandonment to Divine Providence'. I've learnt to just go with these weird directive impulses now because I know it will become important later. The thing is the book never turned up. About 3 weeks ago, I was listening to a podcast where it was mentioned in passing again, and, once again, go buy it.
- This led me to finding a copy of the book incredibly-cheaply from a town a few hundred miles away, which is when the man in question offered to sell me his entire theological library at a vast discount, and threw in a 19th Century Eucharistic Vault for free, which I arranged for someone else to pick up for me the next time he was passing through.
- I asked the Mother Superior at the Monastery one morning last week about the Mount of Perfection. She said although it has its use, the analogy of ascending a mountain makes it seem far harder than it is, and that it's easy to overthink it and get discouraged.
"Bosch," she said, with that wry smile, "
It's really a slide."
- I smiled, but I didn't really register it straight away. Later on that day, as I was watering the greenhouse, and thinking on the theological concept of Spiritual Childhood, it suddenly hit me:
I'm a little kid, at the top of a slide, and the Father is down there at the bottom, arms wide, saying "Let go! I'll catch you!" but I'm sitting there, clutching at the top of the slide, too terrified to let go, because it seems so high and so steep.
- Note my choice of words there.
It suddenly hit me. I've had a crazy Catholic Stalker I've been navigating for months now, who gets constantly annoyed when I say I won't do what they're telling me to do because it's not From God, and I can recognise their lack of inner peace and any kind of apparent humility.
I've tried to explain this in great detail - I know because it was given to me - but he can't understand it, because he can only see experience via his outsized Pride.
I can't possibly be holier than him because he's been doing this for years and does X number of devotions and his statues are bigger than mine, blah blah.
- Now the books turn up, and there's so many of them I only give them a cursory going over.
- I had a conversation with one of the Mother Theresa nuns, and mentioned my sensation that something was spiritually-wrong, and then explained I was finding it increasingly-hard to meditate as I previously had: "So, you're convincing the will that God loves it, which makes the will love God back, but I've got nothing to say, because it seems self-evident to me now." I went on a bit more but what it came down to was me saying "It's not that easy to find God in Prayer any more."
She explained that its how you advance in the spiritual life: it's easy at the beginning because the graces are abundant, but you have to be weaned off them so you love God for his sake, and not for the 'sweets' he gives you.
She told me to read 'The Way of Perfection' by St Theresa of Avila. I said I had attempted to read it months back, but it didn't seem to speak to me, and I just felt confused.
"Bosch, there's certain books we shouldn't read until we're ready, and, even here [in their order] we're often forbidden to read until we're given permission to do so. I recognise where you are."
- I started on it the next day, but, it's written in 1577, and although the language isn't complicated, it just doesn't sing. And I'm annoyed by it and struck by the idea that I should be intelligent enough to make sense of this. It's only later that day that I notice another copy of 'The Way of Perfection' in the pile of books I bought, subtitled, 'Modern English Version'.
- My first though was to ignore it - "I'm too smart for that". Then, I stopped. No. I've been learning to trust humble action, so I decided to read that it.
- Oh man, that book. I can't even begin to describe it. Most people would say it's an 'abridged' version, but that undersells it. It's exactly the same language in question, it's just stripped of every bit of unnecessary waffling around the core point, then presented almost like poetry.
An example:
"When we meditate, using the intellect,
we can hardly ever banish
distracting thoughts of worldly things.
In contemplation, the Lord himself
relieves us of this care,
for He will not trust us
to look after ourselves.
He calls us to His side at once,
and in a single moment
reveals more truths to us
and gives us a clearer insight
into the nature of everything
that we could otherwise gain
in many years.
He brings us to the end of our journey
without our understanding how."
I recognised she's describing Infused Contemplation. As Father Ripperger mentions when you pray to Our Lady of Sorrows about discovering your Primary Defect, you don't 'figure it out', the knowledge
just arrives.
See how all it took was being humble to consider the possibility I needed the simpler option?
With moments like this, the Mother Superior is always careful to point out something I already had sensed:
this doesn't make you special. It's purely a grace from God, and nothing that you've done has earnt it. I remember Aurini mentioning once he hated how Catholics seem to compete to be more humble than others by confessing their wretchedness. It's more: it becomes a simple admission of truth. God has great mercy and a desire to elevate the pathetic.
- I read the entire book over the next couple of days, and understood that I'd advanced through the lower stages of prayer to what is known as the Prayer of Quiet, where it's simply enough to contemplate God with a simple thought of love, which means abandoning the comfortable and familiar routine of prayer that functions as a security blanket that you've grown out of. Once again, the message is to 'Let go'. You go further by doing less, which, of course, triggers a rebellion of Pride: "I need to do 10 lengthy devotions a day to be holy!" It can't be that
easy.
- So, thinking on trust in letting go and simplicity, I went back to writings on St Therese of Lisieux - a very simple cloistered French Nun of little apparent import to those around her who, in her simplicity and humility had being granted such a deep understanding of how to relate to God, became a Doctor of the Church after her death - some of which I'd previously read, thinking, although I think I know I read it, I shouldn't assume anything.
- And there it was, in a book on her I hadn't read: "Holy Daring".
To one who was being intimidated by the thoughts of the dizzy heights that had to be conquered in the spiritual life, Therese wrote:
"I see clearly that you are mistaking the road, and that you will never arrive at the end of your journey. You want to climb the mountain whereas God wishes you to descend it. He is waiting for you in the fruitful valley of humility."
It's the slide again, and the solution to letting go is - as always for me - embracing humility.
See how the process of contemplation works? You innately-understand a deep truth, and then events play out to guide that truth to be reinforced via experience, which strengthens your sense of it via reason.
And this is where it gets frustrating: people who lack any experience at discerning truth label this incredibly-rich, rewarding process, the patterns of which are mapped out in catholic book after book after book, as 'gullibility' or claim all religions are relative. All it really shows is their
spiritual autism.
Remember, I'm not special.
Anyone can do this, but it involves being Present in the moment as much as is possible. I'd mentioned months back that I'd gradually filtered out as much distraction from my life as possible: movies, gone; Television, gone; music, gone; socialising; video games; internet.
At the end, God Alone remains. When you're not mentally-present in the moment, you're throwing up a wall between you and Him, and I can see he's been gradually stripping me of my willful disassociation from harsh reality, a coping skill I learnt growing up in an abusive home in a violent, poor neighborhood.
When I'd write a song, or watch a movie, or have sex, all I was really doing was blocking the world out by engaging in fantasy constructs. What he's been saying is "No. Stay with me." Which means I've been going through what is known as the Dark Night of the Senses: the things of the world are dry and unappealing, particularly when I try to return to previous patterns of coping behaviour. I have no idea when it ends. I go weeks detached, and I'm fine, then suddenly think I need to buy a New Order record from 1986 and everything will be easy again. (Instead, I listen to it and think... "Man, this is crap. How did I never notice how
terrible this is?")
Note that this also includes Spiritual Reading for the sake of
intellectual curiousity alone.
Now, think about how obsessed with fantasy entertainment the Left is. Can you see how they can't ever know God? Do you see why all spheres of entertainment are converged and eventually-controlled by a group that doesn't want you ever knowing God? This includes the Leftist tendency to wander off into Gnostic Constructs that appeal to their emotional comfort to insulate themselves from harsh realities: they can't ever see truth because they seek to avoid it at every moment, which is why they tend to believe in naive, utopian Fantasies and can't clearly see themselves as not a good person. This is the classic basic bitch "I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious" stance, including any kind of perceived special / unique status.
So, this is my problem with Orthodoxy. It would say everything I'm describing above can't be from God, yet my issues are being addressed and I'm being given clear direction as to what I need to do next, though I often rebel and fall flat on my face until I understand, as always, that He always tells you the truth, as uncomfortable as it can be to hear.
That being said, I was listening to an Orthodox talk on Digital Culture - I think the internet opens us all up to demonic influence - and their stated advice included
a constant engagement with reality and a rejection of mental fantasies.
If anyone who understands their Theology better wants to clear things up for me, feel free. Something I understood a while back is, you know the churches from their fruits, and I was fascinated by how a schism from the Catholic Church only seems to lead to a further schism within the new faith, like the vine can't survive on its own.
There's been a serious schism between Moscow and Constantinople happening in the Orthodox Church since October last year and it only seems to be getting nastier. My curiousity / initial attraction to Orthodoxy was hoping for stability and a lack of infighting.
A simple warning for those who side on reason, I can't take Mage's advice seriously, because he's forming his religious construct via emotion. "If it touches you on a personal level..." This is why I'm suspicious of the Protestant and Charismatic Churches needing to work themselves up into sensing God via music and other appeals to passion.
There's certain spiritual practices I do specifically because they have zero emotional appeal. I often loathe doing the Liturgy of the Hours to the degree I almost convinced myself that the Old Testament is talking about two different Gods. This is done to train you to do what is uncomfortable to your own nature, which protects you from Concupiscence - the imagination causing the movement of the sensitive appetites, whether preceding the will (antecedent) or following free determination of will (Consequent).
By training yourself to fight concupiscence, what you eventually end up with is a deeper emotional resilience:
the ability to suffer, which is why an observation like this:
Quote: (03-22-2019 05:13 AM)Mage Wrote:
1)Lack of masculinity in Christianity, Raising feminism in Church Blue pill attitides of priests and fellow laymen / laywomen.
... ignores the concept of how hard it is to fight your own desire for comfort, including letting go of your own ego entirely.
I waited for confession tonight, and let everyone go ahead of me, thinking I'd be last, where I belong. Unfortunately, as I went to go in, the Priest came out, running late. This is what Divine Providence gave me. I accept it.
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2)Meditation and yoga saved my childhood anxiety, introversion and shyness problems as well as health problems of failing immune system. It Works at least in neuro-somatic level and Christianity doesn't do shit.
Were you receiving regular communion?
What attachments did you let go of?
What habitual cycles did you challenge?
What level of mortification did you practice?
Did you love the things of the world more than God?
Were you in a state of grace?
Were you still in love with your sins?
Personally, I've found clearly seeing the uncomfortable truth about myself has done wonders to repair what is broken, exactly as is promised, as long as you make the effort to cooperate with grace. When I don't, things go terribly-wrong.
If you don't cooperate, you fall into the state of what is known as a 'retarded soul', the graces stops coming. In extreme cases, sin will no longer be recognised as being sinful. Any kind of sensation of God, if experienced, will only be intermittent, rather than the deeper unions possible.
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3)Evolutionary psychology that game is based on is not compatible with Original sin doctrine unless you view Genesis in an "occult" Kabalistic way. Bible denies Reincarnation, but why do we are responsible for Adams sins? Obviosly it only works if Adam contained all the human souls with in him that reincarneted in the present form as thought by Kaballah. Christians do not teach this and it makes no sense.
You don't seem to understand Catholicism: the Fall broke the Natural Order. Through their action, sin now enters and corrupts everything in the world ever after, meaning, left to our own devices, without god's grace, we will always choose concupiscence - the comfortable evil that gives us pleasure. I've stated before that if you don't swim against the current, you will be taken downstream. The more sin exists in the world, the more the Natural Order will rebel against it.
What God longs to do is to repair the effects of the Fall in each of us, but we are also given the free will to refuse. If you really study the Catholic teaching of the Passion of Christ, it's clearly explained that his sacrifice upon the cross is the undoing of the Fall: he is the fruit (the child) the woman (Mary, the ark of the new covenant) puts back on the tree (the cross) through her complete and total obedience to God's Will, rather than opposing, or even questioning, it. Traditional states that Adam's Skull was buried directly beneath the cross at Golgotha. There's a fascinating book from the early 20th Century called 'How Christ said the first mass' that goes deeply into this.
Jesus undoing the Fall now makes it possible for us to be saved. He's found a loophole in a contract that damned us all and the demons have to abide by it.
Note how at Pentecost the various tongues all hear the same tongue at the message of Christ's resurrection. This is the undoing of the curse of Babel: mankind can once again be united with knowledge of The Word.
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4)I consider one life and possible hell after unfair. A man living 100 yeas must struggle 100 years to resist temptations and to not fall in Hell. An aborted baby a)goes to hell pre Vatican Council II, b) Is automatically saved past Vatican council II. Reincarnation with many lifetimes is just much more fair.
You're speaking from emotion again. Reality is not, and will never ever be 'fair', which is why the Left will constantly fail at trying to make it so.
Understand that God doesn't want to condemn anyone to Hell. Those who are there deliberately-chose separation from God because they chose to be their own Gods: they chose to do their will over his. He knows how horrific their eternal reality will be, which is why Jesus suffered so. They simply don't care.
It's harsh, but he's given everyone the key to their shackles. If they choose to remain bound, it's by choice.
There's no formal teaching on aborted babies in the Catholic Church, just some lengthy speculation by St Thomas Aquinas.
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5)Christianity is globalist religion that puts intermediarry between a man and God. Paganism where a man communicates with Nature/God directly is much more masculine, direct and honest, harder to politicize.
Paganism and New Age were deliberately-seeded into society via the SF Publishing Houses in the late 60's and early 70's, gradually morphing into Gaia / Earth worship, via the entertainment and propaganda arms of (((the usual suspects))). Particularly note how hard they're pushing paganism in entertainment in the last decade. As long as you choose anything but God, they win.
As St Augustine and St Theresa of Avila teach, God is within each one of us: what is known as 'The Little Heaven of the Soul'. Hence the importance of purity: each of us become a temple to host the trinity and to share in their circle of love. The temple is strengthened by the Eucharist and purified of stain by Confession. All you have to do to find God is turn inwards in the moment, and rest in Him.
A Priest is necessary to forgive sins to guarantee the penitent is properly disposed. What is required is the act of humbling oneself to confess one's sins to another. Otherwise, forgiving oneself means pride allows one to ignore the harsh uncomfortable truths of our own behaviour at will, including identifying Recidivist behaviour that will stagnate the spiritual life.
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6)St Joseph is a cuckold. My faith is that we are divine ourselves not made to be cucked by gods.
This is an immature, pride-based assessment of a much richer spiritual reality.
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7)Studying ancient Church history you can see that the present belifs were codiefied by Paul, Constantince, Nikea council and many "church fathers. Only a minor part of message comes from Jesus. And what comes from Jesus can be interpreted in a Paganic manner easily.
Jesus promised the arrival of the Paraclete so his followers would not be orphaned. You'll notice the Gospel repeatedly-stresses their great ignorance of the spiritual realities around them until after the revelation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Their new understanding gives the events of Jesus' life a significance he would have lacked.
I've read many internet experts on how the Church became the Church, incorrectly-pointing to Nicene Council or Constantine, repeating what someone who sounded smart to them had posted earlier. I've yet to hear one who has ever read 'Against Heresies' by Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, who clearly defined what is and isn't dogma before these events ever happen, and whose guidance they follow. It's a neat 700 pages. If you want to understand how Catholicism / Orthodoxy logically and reasonably fits together, and why certain teachings and books were removed from the early church, go for it.
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8)Christianity sells solution to a problem it itself sells first. It sells you hell and then it sells you salvation. It is not that I seek or reject a God who wants to save me or insist on saving myself. It is that there is no hell to be saved from.
I'd more suggest the church offers you healing from the damaging effects of sin, and freedom from enslavement to your sensible appetites, which may have to be completed in purgatory. Note that the children of the adversary - you know who they are - reliably try to control people and lead them astray via those same appetites.
Of course there's a hell - take a look at a group of Leftists and imagine existing
as them for any length of time. Note they have no internal peace - the restlessness of their crusades, their inability to see the truth about themselves and anything else.
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True Hell is walking among Gods knowing you are a piece of shit, can do nothing about it and are even denied opportunity to do anything about it any more.
Your perception is warped. What tradition teaches is that your genuine, contrite admission before God that you are, yes, a piece of excrement who tries to be good yet always chooses evil, and, as such, doesn't deserve any reward from him is met with, "Yes, but you're
my piece of excrement and I want you with me in paradise." This is why St Therese of Lisieux rightfully understood that there is nothing we can ever do during our time on earth to merit heaven, that when you've sinned against Infinite Goodness you can only ever approach him with empty hands and rely on Infinite Mercy.
He only wants us to own it, rather than to argue with him, trying to justify and excuse our own behaviour: see the Pharisee and the Publican.
Having a better idea of where you're coming from, I have a clearer picture of the truth you can't see about yourself and am saying this out of measured Christian Reproach: you're always in over your head in the religious discussions on this site, and are just picking and choosing what emotionally-appeals to you, which is of no use to anyone
but you, since you're not interested in talking about God Objectively, as he is, since you lack any operational experience with him, but only why You, subjectively, should be our God.
So why insert yourself into every religious conversation that isn't titled 'The Gospel of You' and present yourself as some ascended guru, other than some feeble attempt at gaining social recognition for knowledge you don't possess and are uninterested in putting in the required hard work into deeply-studying to rightfully-earn? It's
tedious, man.
Man, I can see why I like not having to have an opinion the majority of the time now. A member messaged me a while back, seemingly-in-desolation, saying something like "I'm utterly-tired of hearing myself talk" and all I could think was
he's understanding a truth that most never learn, so he's doing far better than he probably thinks he is.